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KDF disinvestment tangent

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  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,382 Arc User
    Two MMOs I played where player choice and actions made a difference were Ultima Online before they dumbed it down, and Star Wars Galaxies before they turned it into a clone of World of Warcraft, and caused a mass-exodus of players. These games had real communities that could actually leave their mark on the game. We're talking about real involvement, not just pre-scripted stories. Yes, those games had issues as well, but to this date they are the only MMOs I have played that made me really feel connected with the gameworld and the other players I shared it with.

    But we already know this will never be an open world sandbox. But they cannot even pretend to make our choices matter.

    And that is sad
    When it comes to MMOs, I wear prescription glasses. Whether or not they are rose-tinted is beside the point.
  • ichaerus1ichaerus1 Member Posts: 986 Arc User
    I have played MMOs in which player choices and actions meant something, .
    Such as? I'm the last 15 years of MMOs I've played the only game that came even close to this was Elder Scrolls Online, and even that was just throwaway lines of "I remember you helping us before!" if you did the quest in the previous zones or not.

    City of Heroes/City of Villains would say hi to you from the grave. The Going Rogue expansion for sure, where your choices would over time affect your alignment, or which faction you were part of, whether rogue, vigilante, hero, villain, praetorian, or rebel, for example. And your choices affected which missions and contacts opened up to you.

    In the first 6 months, I know that SWTOR for sure(I haven't played it since, so I don't know what has happened since) had choices that mattered, because it would affect you and your companions, more than cosmetically as well.

    Roleplaying has EVERYTHING to do with choices you as a character makes, unless you have a terrible DM/GM who leads you by the nose on a railroad. Because while the DM/GM/Storyteller lays out the world, what you do in it has consequences and ripples throughout the story, whether you're wearing the white hat, or the black hat. A good DM/GM doesn't hand you a premade character with a locked script and world set in place. He/she hands you a blank character sheet, and a world that you can shape, and lets your story unfurl(until you get eaten by a mimic, or you get turned into a bubbling puddle of good from an acid trap detonated by a kobold for example). The freedom to make your choices, but also carries the responsibility from making those choices, for good or ill.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    ichaerus1 wrote: »
    I have played MMOs in which player choices and actions meant something, .
    Such as? I'm the last 15 years of MMOs I've played the only game that came even close to this was Elder Scrolls Online, and even that was just throwaway lines of "I remember you helping us before!" if you did the quest in the previous zones or not.
    City of Heroes/City of Villains would say hi to you from the grave. The Going Rogue expansion for sure, where your choices would over time affect your alignment, or which faction you were part of, whether rogue, vigilante, hero, villain, praetorian, or rebel, for example. And your choices affected which missions and contacts opened up to you.

    In the first 6 months, I know that SWTOR for sure(I haven't played it since, so I don't know what has happened since) had choices that mattered, because it would affect you and your companions, more than cosmetically as well.

    Roleplaying has EVERYTHING to do with choices you as a character makes, unless you have a terrible DM/GM who leads you by the nose on a railroad. Because while the DM/GM/Storyteller lays out the world, what you do in it has consequences and ripples throughout the story, whether you're wearing the white hat, or the black hat. A good DM/GM doesn't hand you a premade character with a locked script and world set in place. He/she hands you a blank character sheet, and a world that you can shape, and lets your story unfurl(until you get eaten by a mimic, or you get turned into a bubbling puddle of good from an acid trap detonated by a kobold for example). The freedom to make your choices, but also carries the responsibility from making those choices, for good or ill.
    One game where player choice absolutely mattered was Fallout 4. Obviously that's single player, but in it player choices could result in the destruction of cities. How would you handle that in an MMO? How do you program the game to handle it when you have a group of players go to a location but for one player they see it as a burned ruin, and the other sees it as a social hub where they buy and sell things?
    warpangel wrote: »
    brian334 wrote: »
    The main issue is that outside of one or two instances in the starter quests, you never get a chance to be a Klingon.

    Like them or not, agree with them or not, there is a canon portrayal of Klingons, and outside of the Bat'leth tournament you never get to act that way.

    Example: In the first incarnation of Hakeev's death scene I was given the choice to kill him or not to kill him. My Fed character let him live, my Klingon killed him. That choice was taken away because it was considered inappropriate. But it was a very Klingon thing to do, and there was absolutely no reason for the choice to be removed other than to conform to some Federation ideal about killing, after we've killed dozens of others to get to that point. (And yeah, you can stun with phasers, which we certainly do with our orbital bombardment optionals.)
    It's not about any Federation ideals, but of vengeance. The romulan Player Character has a massive personal score to settle with Hakeev, so they kill him themselves (regardless of faction alignment). Whereas the other origins are not as involved so they leave him to Obisek, who is.
    Yeah Hakeev's story ends with him dying for his many, many crimes. If you don't know HOW many, go play the Romulan Republic story! Seriously... Yeesh...

    Hakeev's crimes were less numerous in the original Romulan mystery arc. Some of that stuff wasn't even clear if Hakeev even knew about it. Heck the revelation of what caused Hobus came in the Romulan Republic story! So in the pre-LoR version there was less reason for the player or Obisek to want Hakeev dead.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    ichaerus1 wrote: »
    I have played MMOs in which player choices and actions meant something, .
    Such as? I'm the last 15 years of MMOs I've played the only game that came even close to this was Elder Scrolls Online, and even that was just throwaway lines of "I remember you helping us before!" if you did the quest in the previous zones or not.
    City of Heroes/City of Villains would say hi to you from the grave. The Going Rogue expansion for sure, where your choices would over time affect your alignment, or which faction you were part of, whether rogue, vigilante, hero, villain, praetorian, or rebel, for example. And your choices affected which missions and contacts opened up to you.

    In the first 6 months, I know that SWTOR for sure(I haven't played it since, so I don't know what has happened since) had choices that mattered, because it would affect you and your companions, more than cosmetically as well.

    Roleplaying has EVERYTHING to do with choices you as a character makes, unless you have a terrible DM/GM who leads you by the nose on a railroad. Because while the DM/GM/Storyteller lays out the world, what you do in it has consequences and ripples throughout the story, whether you're wearing the white hat, or the black hat. A good DM/GM doesn't hand you a premade character with a locked script and world set in place. He/she hands you a blank character sheet, and a world that you can shape, and lets your story unfurl(until you get eaten by a mimic, or you get turned into a bubbling puddle of good from an acid trap detonated by a kobold for example). The freedom to make your choices, but also carries the responsibility from making those choices, for good or ill.
    One game where player choice absolutely mattered was Fallout 4. Obviously that's single player, but in it player choices could result in the destruction of cities. How would you handle that in an MMO? How do you program the game to handle it when you have a group of players go to a location but for one player they see it as a burned ruin, and the other sees it as a social hub where they buy and sell things?
    warpangel wrote: »
    brian334 wrote: »
    The main issue is that outside of one or two instances in the starter quests, you never get a chance to be a Klingon.

    Like them or not, agree with them or not, there is a canon portrayal of Klingons, and outside of the Bat'leth tournament you never get to act that way.

    Example: In the first incarnation of Hakeev's death scene I was given the choice to kill him or not to kill him. My Fed character let him live, my Klingon killed him. That choice was taken away because it was considered inappropriate. But it was a very Klingon thing to do, and there was absolutely no reason for the choice to be removed other than to conform to some Federation ideal about killing, after we've killed dozens of others to get to that point. (And yeah, you can stun with phasers, which we certainly do with our orbital bombardment optionals.)
    It's not about any Federation ideals, but of vengeance. The romulan Player Character has a massive personal score to settle with Hakeev, so they kill him themselves (regardless of faction alignment). Whereas the other origins are not as involved so they leave him to Obisek, who is.
    Yeah Hakeev's story ends with him dying for his many, many crimes. If you don't know HOW many, go play the Romulan Republic story! Seriously... Yeesh...

    Hakeev's crimes were less numerous in the original Romulan mystery arc. Some of that stuff wasn't even clear if Hakeev even knew about it. Heck the revelation of what caused Hobus came in the Romulan Republic story! So in the pre-LoR version there was less reason for the player or Obisek to want Hakeev dead.

    that ambiguity also made him a better character. Pre-LOR Hakeev was a scumbag, sure, but he was a scumbag who was trying to hold his nation together. with Legacy of Romulus, he turns into a traitor against that nation, responsible in large part for that nation's destruction-and going from "Ruthless Lawful evil" to "Insane chaotic evil".

    Like...every major villain Cryptic's done since.

    I would like a mission involving Mirror Havkev I know they have a doff version of him. I'm sure Mirror Hakeev is Lawful Good. Since morality seems to mirror itself between the universes. Would be awesome and they should do it for a mirror storyline.
  • roguealltrekroguealltrek Member Posts: 179 Arc User
    in the end its going to be federation and not a thing besides federation.

    In all the series and movies that in the end is all it is every planet race person or event in the end its federation.

    In the motion picture people die transporter failure even klingon ships poof gone. The end federation views and happy ending.

    The wrath of kahn. Kahn dies spock dies station dies nebula blows up. Federation just fine and happy.

    The search for spock. O look more klingons die, planet dies, ship explodes, and Kirk lost his son but in the end federation just fine.

    The voyage home. Same story different day whip around the sun time travel, and presto federation just fine.

    star trek 5. Again ship gets hijacked klingons attack the great barrier, and alien entity dies. Then ending federation and klingon ship side by side every one is happy.

    star trek 6 ends federation and klingons working together and everyone happy,

    and so on every show reboot or not ends with the federation is just fine regardless of the personal damage to any one its always federation ideals and actions and everyone is happy.

    So besides the limitation of the game being a mmo at the end of the day the story has one possible outcome. I still think that faction missions would be a good thing to place in between the main story and don't see why they can't make these branching personal objectives where your actions for that set of missions matter. but the main story will always be about the federation, and at the end of that day federation wins that is star trek in a nut shell.
    To be or not to be: B)
  • roguealltrekroguealltrek Member Posts: 179 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    in the end its going to be federation and not a thing besides federation.
    sniped for brevity.

    I'm actually not going to disagree with the end=state, but people don't watch WWII movies for the Yalta Peace conference and don't (continually) obsess about the American Civil War because they're curious about which side wins.

    it's 'Getting there from here" that provides the story.

    Cryptic pretty much rushes the ending by telling the point of view characters FIRST.

    Thus everything ends up being "Kill me some rats to move the slider left to right, it is your Destiny."

    The whole 'getting there' is self-sabotaged by Cryptic's 'writing' staff (yes, in quotes. the actual writers don't work there anymore.)

    there is no drama in the "KLingon war" because we all get to see the end before it's over, and all the major action happens off-screen, or only-on-federation-side. *(B'Vat being a prime example.)

    Really, Cryptic should never have done more than the one faction they can actually invest in, but overcommitment is a thing they do-taking on more than they can possible handle or justify.

    we get plot after plot of 'Saving the whole galaxy!!" because the devs can't handle the smaller conflicts.

    I don't disagree with you regarding the getting there from hear as in any thing the experience some times counts more than the end. My point was simply you have no choice at the end of it all.

    I do think simple things can be made to matter as a course of player choice. For instance a side set of missions 3 episodes long if i for instance run a dagger thru a person in mission one for insulting me. Then it may only result in a different representative in mission three but at least i can effect the outcome in a small way.
    Or if i let him live a reference to me doing so in mission 3 and the npc shows up for the mission.

    That is a simple branching outcome that should be possible to do even in a mmo but i don't see that happening here in this game. even in the missions we had choices in the outcome don't branch in any way even in the same mission.
    To be or not to be: B)
  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    Well they can do well to fill in the gaps. Also them not doing more then one option was not really a choice by cryptic as they did not always own the game another company did. I think they might have removed kdf if it was not for two reasons its so coded into the game they just can't do it and also their would be players very upset. The way the coding is they could not do even a full Romulan faction or even a full Dominion Because the the Star Fleet and Kdf Factions Systems are so ingrained into the code. In order for them to do it they would have to ingrain another Invite team option. Basically a copy and paste which is something they could do but they would need to program it to where it does not mess with the original. We might one day see them do it but till then it won't happen.
  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Well they can do well to fill in the gaps. Also them not doing more then one option was not really a choice by cryptic as they did not always own the game another company did. I think they might have removed kdf if it was not for two reasons its so coded into the game they just can't do it and also their would be players very upset. The way the coding is they could not do even a full Romulan faction or even a full Dominion Because the the Star Fleet and Kdf Factions Systems are so ingrained into the code. In order for them to do it they would have to ingrain another Invite team option. Basically a copy and paste which is something they could do but they would need to program it to where it does not mess with the original. We might one day see them do it but till then it won't happen.

    They wanted to and were told 'no' by their code guys, so you're right there.

    Thing is, Cryptic doesn't have the manpower or resources to take on the bill of work they had in 2010, much less what's been piled on in nine years since, and the seams show, but beond that, there's a fundamental psychology going on as well; conflict averse people don't write conflicts very well, and when your studio's 'diversity' is limited to skin colors, that monocultural aspect means not being able to deliver on any but the lowest-common-denominator when you start talking about having playable factions.

    There's no diversity of viewpoint, which is fine for delivering the same homogenized pap they've delivered for the last six years, but it's unreasonable to ask for more than what they've already delivered, because even with a massive injection of money they would be unable to do it on a psychological or mental level.

    simply put, it's not reasonable to ask Cryptic for better development of any of the factions, because even if they had the money, they don't have the kind of people who can shift perspective or see value in contrasting moral or political structures. The best they can manage, is a flanderized, one-note portrayal that bounces around negative stereotypes for NPC 'villains' and trying to re-create the Player into season 1 TNG's version of Worf.

    this is LITERALLY the best the team @ Cryptic can do. Even with a massive injection of resources and funds, they really aren't ever going to be able to do better.

    They could do a total revamp of the Kdf faction redo the doff missions making the klingons more honorable. Add in the Orion Embasy found in discovery maybe as a quest hub for more less then honorable Klingon Characters. Like Orions and other Pirate Races. Revamp First City make it less rusty in design like they did with Earth Space Dock. Or add in a starbase like Earth Space dock to the Kdf side. Buff many of their ships and traits, to be on pare or a little better then their Fed counterparts. Find some way to balance all the ships they have to be more in line with pvp. Add in the Discovery Klingon Models. Intermix them with the Regular Klingons. For Discovery Nastalga. Maybe add in a city that looks kinda like mirror bajor or replace First City with something like that where players can find it appealing. They could in fact revamp kdf alltogether and make them a faction that isn't all honorable warrier murder innocents but a society that has moved more in line to the way it was before the warrior cast took over in the time of Enterprise. Even remove the torture part to the one mission and add in the option not to attack the federation ships when going after drake that choice is very forced upon the klingon player. Not all Klingons are Murderous salvages some will be diplomatic and that should be an option for the Kdf players. My hope is they revamp the Kdf tutorial like they have with the Federation maybe even getting your own ship after completing Klingon Academy. Showing the good parts of Klingon Culture Kahless as you do the Tutorial maybe even have Worf be your sponsor and then maybe working for him from the very beginning. Working as Both House of Martok and with the Klingon Defense Force instead of going out to war against the federation defending kdf areas from Federation Attack. While the others are warring with the Federation.
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 7,036 Community Moderator
    Ok. This has become just a big bash on the devs threads with the same arguments repeated ad nauseam. /Thread
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