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KDF disinvestment tangent

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  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    Well, they are not Border Patrol, or Minute Men Militia. They are not Neighborhood Watch volunteers. They are not National Guard, where they work TDY.

    It must mean they are like The Salvation Army.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,361 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    I think you know that I meant that the faction-CENTRIC stories be continued. I refuse to play stupid with you.
    That would require that there be something that would logically only be available to those factions to continue. And there isn't.

    With the defeat of the Romulan Star Empire, Tal Shiar, and Elachi, as well as finding ad establishing a new homeworld, there is little the Romulan Republic has to do that they couldn't, or wouldn't, ask for assistance from their Klingon and Federation allies. The same applies for the Klingons as well. The Klingons already defeated the Fek'Ihri, took down Torg, and uncovered the Romulan connection to Torg. What exactly do you think these factions would be doing that would exclude the others, who are their allies, from assisting?

    Oh, I don't know.... Maybe like ANYTHING that would make sense for an officer of the NRR, the KDF, the J'H, or the 23cUFP to be doing in their respective organizations? I am sure that anyone with half an imagination could come up with an entire series of stories, for each of these "fractions." When we start our Romulan character, there is a solid storyline running. it could have continued. but due to every Cryptic employee being needed for whatever was in the pipeline next, there was nobody to carry on the plot. But what does it matter? After all when you get done with the Romulan stuff, you can still play your Romulan doing UFP stuff or KDF stuff...

    It gets worse when you are Romulan who chose to join the KDF, because it ain't much longer before you end up doing the UFP stuff right there with the rest of the KDF players. See where this is going? PvP is not even supported anymore. When was the last time we had a single bit of new PvP content? That is why the UFP and KDF were unique factions to begin with. So there is no ongoing Klingon story content and no new PvP content. So what is the POINT of even having a KDF faction? If we are ALL going to end up doing the same stuff, no matter what faction, or origin story we choose, then why not just merge the fctions into the Galactic Alliance, let us simply pick the race we want to play, and then let the game gate us to the origin story based on that choice.

    Oh wait... I know... Because if the whirlwind of fecal matter it would stir up because it would mean the end of PvP… Can you imagine how social media would explode with all the "Cryptic slaps their players in the face" reactions. So PvP will never go away, but there is no indication that anything meaningful will be done with it, either. So the game will be stuck with a now meaningless faction system just to maintain the status quo.
    TFOs are playable content, so that is fine. New textures and models are not made by the mission content team, and there are enough assets in the game to create many years worth of mission content. This idea that every new mission MUST have all new assets is stupid. The shows this game are based on typically ran for years with the same exact sets. TNG got Ten Forward and DS9 got the wardroom, and VOY got astrometrics. Sure there were some other additions, but we are talking about sets that got added in a single season and were reused for every episode after that. And we were fine with it... Now of course, the art team should knock themselves out and release as many new assets as they can, but if the Foundry demonstrates anything well, it is that a little creativity goes a long way when it comes to reusing existing assets. So that is not a good enough excuse for the long delays between mission content releases. VA recording? You do know that the average length of time for recording a VA is maybe a couple of days, depending on how much dialogue they have. And they can go to a local recording studio to do it, with the producer having received the specific details on what is needed. It's not like they have the same sort of workload as they did when they were filming the shows. And that other stuff that goes into game development? It's called programming, which the mission content creators do not do...
    1. Needing to make new assets for a few new things isn't the same as saying they need new assets for everything every missions.

    So it's only a few things that need new assets. In the hands of competent artists, we're looking at a few hours per item. Maybe a few days for really complex stuff. I've watched YouTube videos of real time art development, and there are people who manage to turn out solid work within an hour's time. They have the tools, and the talent. But to be fair, in a corporate game development environment, It isn't just about creating the art. It's got to be approved. That means submitting what took a few hours to do and waiting days or weeks for someone to get back to you and tell you how many ways you got it wrong, with only vague suggestions of how to correct it, but you've already moved on to the fifth project, and the second, third and fourth ones haven't been rejected yet, and they want the corrected first project by the end of the day. So project 5 gets shelved while you rework the first one, while waiting for the go/no go on projects 2, 3 and 4. So you fix project 1 and submit it. Next day you get feedback on 2 and 3. 2's fine but 3 needs more vague improvements. 4 still hasn't been reviewed. You fix 3 and get back to work on 5. Then you are told that they changed their mind, and that the way you did 1 was better, but needs this this and this added, which actually requires reworking the model. So project 5 gets shelved again. You redo 1 and get told that 4 needs to be completely reworked because they decided to go a different direction. Before you get done with 5, the executives cancel the game and move you to another team and the process begins again...

    Sound about right?
    2. You seem to have a misplaced idea on how game development works. Generally speaking the people who make mission content are the programmers. There isn't an entire team of idea guys who just do nothing but sit around all day going "what about X!" writing and element design staff are also programmers in pretty much every game I have ever seen.

    And yet, we are told that the systems team is not the same as the content team. If you have to have a programmer to create new missions, then you're doing it wrong. For crying out loud, we have the foundry, which allows the "unwashed masses" to create mission content. What does CRYPTIC have? If their tools are not at least on par with the Foundry, then someone, somewhere, totally botched the whole approach. I can see needing a programmer to lay out new FEATURES and MECHANICS introduced by a season or expansion, as well as integrating support for them into the tools that the content devs use. But even without those modifications to the tools, nothing stops the content dev from using pre-existing tools and resources to create additional mission content.

    I do know that the best foundry missions are not just thrown together on the fly. I know that days, if not weeks, goes into their development. However, the authors in question are individuals who likely do not have a minimum of 8 hours per day to work on their "labor of love" projects. But Cryptic has a team environment with at a minimum 40 hours per week each. If you give ONE of them 8 paid hours per day to churn out new content in the vast pre-existing game universe, and that's all they do, I daresay that we could probably get at least 2 30+ minute missions per month. Stick the entry points for those missions in typically low-player-traffic areas of the game, and you potentially keep the entire game world relevant.
    Back when I played GW2, I seem to remember that their story arcs were more than just a few missions and done. I seem to remember them running for a while, with multiple events tied in and rolled out in measured, but regular intervals. Players will always consume content faster than it can be developed. A season of a star trek show typically ran 22-24 episodes, and they were released in staggered fashion over the course of 9 months, with roughly 3 months in between seasons. There is absolutely nothing that prevents an MMO from being able to do the same thing, except for executive decisions to the contrary.
    There is everything that prevents MMOs from doing that, which is way no MMO releases content that fast. Now even WoW is that quick on content. There is no means by which you will get a new mission or episode every week for 26 weeks straight simply due to the time it takes to make content for video games.

    As mentioned before, Guild Wars 2 has three teams working all the time on new releases, and new releases still only come out every 3 months, and take about 6-8 hours to beat. Generally speaking, it can take one of their teams 8 months to make 8 hours of player content, even for much larger game studios.

    So technically, a one-hour story could be produced in one month even when it involves new environments, art assets and voice acting. Is that what you are saying? A one-hour episode per month actually isn't that bad. It beats going several months with nothing new and a content release that can be blown through in a single day... And like I said, if you cut out everything but the creation of missions using only pre-existing features and assets, and you hire a person to handle one of each of the factions the game has, then there could be a new episode every month for every one of them, thus giving more of a reason to play one of those factions than just another origin story that leads into the Alliance content. That would still be there, but it would add value to the different faction characters.

    See, Cryptic has tunnel vision. They develop and release this or that, and then move forward to the next thing and NEVER really revisit what came before, unless what they are releasing now requires something to be retconned. But everything they release becomes part of the game as a whole, but as they move forward, all these different things might as well not even exist to them. They do to US, but not to them.

    That is sad...
    When it comes to MMOs, I wear prescription glasses. Whether or not they are rose-tinted is beside the point.
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,361 Arc User
    The real point I am trying to make here is that it doesn't really matter. IF PWE cared more about building a long-term virtual world with their MMOs than they do about nickeling and diming everything, then Cryptic would have a large enough staff to do what I am suggesting. I've said it from the beginning: Star Trek is too large scale of an IP for a small-scale development team to be able to achieve full potential with. Atari/Ifogrames was bankrupt and couldn't afford to properly fund Cryptic. PWE can afford it, but won't. So we are stuck with THIS game.

    A game with so much potential, that it will never achieve because the people in charge only care about maximum short term gain. This thread is about the disinvestment of the KDF. But the KDF is only one part that Cryptic is disinvested in. Like I said. Because of their limited human resources, they have tunnel vision, and once done with something, that's it. It is what it is. Forever. Even though it sits there with potential to be more than it is. I am not faulting them for it. They have to play the hand they were dealt just like we do, while the house, PWE, always wins.

    Look. I already know that it is how it's going to be. I don't really expect it to be different. I HOPE, and WISH, it would, but I KNOW it won't.
    When it comes to MMOs, I wear prescription glasses. Whether or not they are rose-tinted is beside the point.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    patrickngo wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Every mission, every situation, every storyline, you're doing things exactly the way a Starfleet officer has to do them. Borrowing a used, second-hand cloaking device? Having to run uncloaked on a covert operation? none of this is a "Klingon" storyline, it's a FEDERATION story where KDF players are 'permitted to cosplay being Starfleet officers'.

    TRIBBLE, even in ground situations, you really expect a KDF General Officer to accept being lectured on the Prime Directive by a mouthy, junior, foreign, officer (Kobali ground)? without offering so much as a rebuke? This is akin to expecting a Hordie to stand there and accept being lectured about the wonders of the Alliance and the superiority of humans, in that Blizzard property.
    This argument only works if you stereotype all Klingons into acting exactly the same way, and their all idiotically headstrong warriors who can't even take someone saying something they disagree with without getting snippy. Which is entirely untrue.

    Your entire argument of "it isn't Klingon" is "its not my one dimensional and utterly wrong view of how Klingons should act!"

    Actually, Som, you're wrong-even in real life, a junior officer mouthing off their political opinions at a General Officer in a disrespectful tone (as happens in the Kobali mission) would face consequences to their career, and that includes "Relief for cause".

    It's called "Conduct Unbecoming", particularly as said mouthing off wasn't invited by said General Officer.

    so no, it's not stereotyping, it's a matter of professionalism in a joint operations environment, but the player isn't even given the option of rebuking verbally, in spite of being an officer from a service that employs, per canon, "Corporeal Correction" being addressed (Uninvited) in a tone (Disrespectful) by a significantly lower ranking officer in a combat zone.
    Actually, the only thing Captain Prime Directive says to the Player Character is "I see" after you tell her of the stasis pods. Her lectures are addressed to Captain Kim.

    Of course, it still would've been most appropriate to allow us a chance to tell her off anyway. Regardless of your origin. She is, after all, badly misapplying the Prime Directive so even a Starfleet Admiral should be correcting her.

    Point being, her conduct was unprofessional, but it's even MORE inappropriate with a Klingon general rather than a Starfleet Admiral, as the KDF isn't a "Civilian" organization (whatever that's supposed to mean), and it's representative of a society that is not even rooted in 'classical' liberal ideals (Like free speech or the Prime Directive). But the lack of an option to tell her to shut up, or to 'dress her down' is particularly glaring here, and reflects on the whole situation as being formulated from the perspective that everyone's character is either a starfleet officer, or wants to be one so badly they'd be uninterested and unwilling to address what is a blatant violation of disciplined conduct. See, it's a conversation between your character, and Harry Kim, the interjection was not invited, the officer was not consulted, their opinion was not solicited, and was neither appropriate, nor invited.
    The conversation The Annoying One interrupts is between the kobali general and Harry Kim. The player character speaks their only line responding to her question about the situation, to which she responds "I see," and proceeds to berate Kim for his opinions. Kim suggests they continue the discussion in private.

    I saw it as everyone's character being a typically bland and featureless Standard Videogame Protagonist. It's not formulated from the perspective of a Starfleet officer, whom I would expect to have some opinion on the matter (just like every time the PD comes up in canon) even if they didn't recognize the abuse of the Prime Directive for what it is, but rather of someone who's just there to shoot the red dots and couldn't care less about the politics.

    In fact, of all the origins that exist in the game, the only one I believe the scene would be appropriate for is the jem'hadar, for whom "shut up and shoot what the 'gods' tell you to" is a natural behavior. Ironically, they can only do the old missions as simulations.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    tigeraries wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy: Convince everyone that Klingon is a bad choice, because there's not enough players and not enough dev support; People then don't choose Klingon and it goes round and round.
    But it's not a prophecy at all, it's the current state of the game. There are significantly less players and less dev support on KDF. What else are we supposed to say, lie to new players about it?
    Lie? playing KDF IS FUN! Telling newbies otherwise IS lying!!!!
    Fun is subjective. Game is written from a Fed point of view. You have a KDF faction with a bunch of races that would never act like a Klingon or Fed but they mouth off all these lines due to storyline... it sucks so much.
    Klingon or KDF? Because the "rawr! Honor! Glory! Kahless!" sort of thing only applies to Klingons, and not other members of the KDF.
    dcu98st-a75dadb4-8205-45c0-bead-c5d8a75a398e.png
    slarggallery_by_marhawkman_dchtyd1-fullview.jpg
    patrickngo wrote: »
    So no, don't try to claim that whitewash is "The Klingon Story". it's not. It's garbage.
    It's the story of how the Klingons grow as a society and become better people. :D
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,361 Arc User
    It's the story of how the Klingons grow as a society and become better people. :D
    This is something even the Trek shows bring up as well.

    The Klingon lawyer Kolos mentions to Archer in the episode "Judgement" that Klingon culture used to not be dominated by the warrior caste, and that Klingons used to have an appreciation for things like scientists, lawyers, artists, etc., and that it was only in his lifetime that this warrior caste took over and started pushing the idea that honor could only be achieved in bloody combat. We see the end result of this in Discovery where the Klingon's have let their culture dip so far they are bordering on self destruction, and its only because of T'Kuvma, and L'rell, that this is avoided.

    Now, L'rell couldn't just undo over 100 years of cultural decay, and this seemingly leads into TOS where we see the Klingons as some sort of military police state where every Klingon is watched at all times by the state. Which makes sense if your leader is in power because they are holding everyone hostage with a bomb. the Klingons remain this way until the Praxis incident, which forces their hand in accepting aid from the Federation, and forces them to accept the idea that they don't HAVE to kill everything to gain glory.

    This leads to the TNG/DS9/VOY era Klingons who are much more like the ENT era Klingons, with a bit more focus on honor then the ENT era Klingons were. However, this is still a Klingon Empire ruled by an overzealous warrior caste who sees only glory and honor in combat, and many TNG/DS9 episodes have Klingons realize this really just isn't working out long term for them.

    While there has been no post VOY series yet to show how the Klingons continue to develop, the planned "Star Trek: Federation" series had the Klingons developing into a less warlike, and more mystical society. while they don't go much further into detail then that, I would presume they become something like warrior monks, with more focus on the monk part then the warrior part.

    Star Trek has made it clear that this warrior nation was not only not how Klingon culture originally was, but also, is something that can't sustain them. That doesn't mean they give up seeking honor or glory, but that it wont come in the form of bloody conquest as they are used too.

    That right there is a solid Klingon-centric story that I would love to experience, playing a Klingon as part of the Klingon Empire, with a unique Klingon point of view, independent of Federation involvement.
    When it comes to MMOs, I wear prescription glasses. Whether or not they are rose-tinted is beside the point.
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    We are already seeing it in-game with the Klingons partaking in more cooperative assignments with the Alliance, generally not being as mindlessly bloodthristy with war, and accepting more diplomatic options. Things that they wouldn't have normally even considered in the past.
    No, there is no evidence of this "cultural shift" at all. At best, Klingon leaders are explaining their reasons to the player (and possibly to the Empire) as "joining forces to fight a superior foe". The leaders seemed reluctant at first, now they just "go along" with whatever the story needs to be done next.

    We have no idea what the Klingon populace, or the member species of the KDF, think about any of the events in the game, because the Klingon populace has no voice. It's even worse for KDF member species; they don't even get representation in story missions, let alone self-governance. Everyone just "goes along" with whatever the leaders say, because "someone out thar needs a killin", I guess.
    Change within the Klingon Empire will not come solely by Klingon involvement alone, but by their interaction with other species, and needing to alter their current behavior to better suit interaction with people beyond themselves.
    As far as STO is concerned, change comes because "the script writer says so". We do not actually witness any changes among the Klingon populace; just pretty speeches from a handful of leaders. We have no idea what is going on within the Empire itself. This lack of development is far more damaging to the KDF identity than losing "exclusive gameplay features". The KDF is a half-baked version of Starfleet and the Empire is a poor man's United Federation of Planets, lacking the UFP's heart and soul.
    I suspect the current Discovery arc, with J'Ula coming to 2410, and possibly rallying other hostile elements within the Empire to start a civil war scenario, will be the big tipping point for the Klingons to move in that direction in STO's timeline. With the most hostile and bloodthirsty elements being on J'Ula's side and getting destroyed to pushed down.
    ... and no one will care, because nothing of value is at stake.

    The current KDF is an empty shell, a mockery of Starfleet. Why anyone should care about it being "threatened"? "Oh, the galaxy is at stake" is lazy hack writing. Make us CARE about the KDF before you go threatening to break it.
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,186 Arc User
    The Organians did say, when we met them the first, (second,) time that the Klingons and the humans would become fast friends. We just didn't realize how fast!
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,361 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    The Organians did say, when we met them the first, (second,) time that the Klingons and the humans would become fast friends. We just didn't realize how fast!

    Well, Chronologically speaking, we are a century after that declaration. And a lot has happened. The recent war with the Klingons and the Federation happened only because the Federation wasn't taking the Klingon Empire's concerns regarding the Undine threat seriously, and they felt that it was on them to step up and be ready to oppose an invasion even if it meant getting the Federation out of their way due to their perceived complacency.

    Fast forward to the conclusion of the Iconian war, with a formal apology to the Klingon leadership for not taking them seriously, the conflict between the Federation and the Klingon empire was declared to be at an end. It was on that day that the Alliance was formed. Its first members had started off as the bitterest of enemies, but now there is no denying that both are stronger together. And it was the joint venture of helping the Romulan Republic establish itself and in so doing, a once common enemy to both had become an ally to both, and now an equal partner in that Alliance. At the same time, while being part of a larger institution, the members of the Galactic Alliance maintain their sovereignty. But after recent events, there can be no denying that unity between civilizations yields productive results
    When it comes to MMOs, I wear prescription glasses. Whether or not they are rose-tinted is beside the point.
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    This argument totally ignores that in writing for something like Star Trek one always selects a handful of characters from a species or faction to represent that species/faction's general attitudes, and that as those character's ideas change, it meant to reflect a change in the culture as a whole.
    Except we have seen whole story arcs in Star Trek about how the Empire has diverse attitudes regarding it's leadership and what the "common Klingon" thinks. From The Final Frontier (where we see a Klingon apologize to Kirk and admit his actions do not represent his government) to several Klingon-centric stories in The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine. The plot of Undiscovered Country would not exist if your statement regarding the Empire was true.
    We really only see and get development on a handful of Ferengi in DS9, but by the end of the series we can tell from that handful of Ferengi that Ferengi society is beginning to head in a new direction based on how they have changed. This same applies to STO.
    Rom becomes the Grand Nagus and institutes "sweeping" changes. J'mpok can't even get off his throne to fight the Hurq'. You know, one of the "greatest threats the Empire ever faced"? So far, the only "sweeping changes" J'mpok has introduced was to shame diplomats... before becoming a diplomat. He is shown to be weak and hypocritical. If he is the stand in for the average Klingon, no wonder the KDF is unpopular.
    I also find it ironic that you claim that the other species of the Klingon Empire get no representation when the Empire's primary ambassador is a Gorn, and he has appeared in a number of missions.
    So, during a time that J'mpok is sneering down his nose at diplomats, he makes S'taass a diplomat. Gornar was conquered in 2403; it's only been 7 years since the Gorn were subjugated by the Empire. They have limited self governance and no representation on the High Council...

    ... and all of these things happened offscreen. S'taass does not represent anything. Does he represent "joe Gorn", or is he a "propaganda puppet" that advertises the "merciful and wise Klingon Empire and it's strong and wise Chancellor J'mpok"? I don't know, and you don't either. There is no "average joe" Gorn, or Orion or even the discount K'zinti. There is no representative of any of the "Empire affiliate races" in any of the story missions.
    Not to mention the fact that, by this logic, most Federation member species get no representation, since we almost always see humans and Vulcans above all else. The people of the Federation have no voice! /sarcasm.
    The Federation has been established (more or less) by 50+ years of television shows, books, and games. The current KDF was established in the "Path to 2409" and that's it. It completely the product of Cryptic. Virtually NOTHING in the actual game itself talks about the state of the "affiliate races" and there are certainly no NPCs you can talk to about it.
    Which isn't the plot they are using in this scenario.
    Irrelevant. The issue is not plot; it's stakes. Why should the audience care about the fate of the KDF when Cryptic has made no effort to develop the KDF beyond a handful of text in "The Path to 2409"?
    Because they actually like the Klingons.
    This is not about the Klingons. This is about "picking a side". The Klingons survived J'mpok, they'll survive J'Ula. Why should we care that she threatens the current political regime? The Republic and the Federation would act only in their self interest; a J'Ula who was not interested in the current "galactic hugfest" would run counter to their needs. They could care less about the KDF or the state of the Empire. The "affiliate races"? Who knows what they think; we don't know what they think of things now.

    So finally, we have the KDF players. Why should the players care who gives them mission briefings? J'mpok. J'Ula. Just a different name on the "High Chancellor" desk. There is no development of the current KDF; there is no investment. No reason to pick a side or care who wins. The only reason KDF players "pick a side" is because the developers say "This person is bad cuz we say so! They are gonna mess up ALL THE THINGS! You gotta save ALL THE THINGS!!!". The KDF players do not have a reason to care about the current state of the KDF. It is shallow and empty.
  • sarvour0sarvour0 Member Posts: 382 Arc User
    "QISmaS botIvjaj 'ej DIS botIvjaj!"
    w2EvX.jpg

    I have made, a QISmaS Warrior, Santar N'Klaus of the House of N'Klaus!
    KDF Engineer! And he is already building Birds of Prey by the dozen...
    Sworn enemy of Fek'Ihri & Kramp'lhri alike!
    Qapla! Ho-ho-ho!
    4073703.jpg
    [SIGPIC]Sarvour Shipyards[/SIGPIC]Sarvour Shipyards
    =A=Commodore Joshua Daniel Sarvour, S.C.E.
    U.S.S. AKAGI NX-93347, Enterprise-class Battle Cruiser =A= U.S.S. T'KORA'S WRATH NX-110047, Odyssey-class Battle Cruiser

    "There Ain't No Grave, Can Hold My Body Down..."

    PS - I fully support a T6 Nova, fixing the Nova skins. I am also rooting for a T6 Science Cruiser, that can use Nova/Rhode Island skins.
    T6 Nova/Rhode Island, T6 Oberth & T6 Constellation are needed. Also needed a T6 Science Cruiser, that can wear any Science or Cruiser skin.
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    I always find it funny how people who support these positions seemingly either don't know the lore of the game they are playing, or simply don't have the desire to be honest about it.
    Ah, the typical @somtaawkhar start to a response; the dismissive insult. It is such a joy to converse with you, som. Don't ever change, 'k?
    only "shamed" Martok's diplomacy because Martok was allowing the Federation to dissuade him from taking the fight to the Undine, a force that threatened them all. It was only after J'mpok's war with the Federation managed to drag the Federation into the Undine conflict that he stopped pissing on them because the thing that was threatening them both was finally over. Not hating someone after they stopped doing the thing you hated them for in the first place isn't hypocritical.
    He lobbied for war. His political stance was to put the "war" back in "warrior". During the Iconian Disappointment, sure, it makes sense to ally against a common foe. After that? Not so much. He represented a faction within the High Council that wants to fight. Now, he's one of those diplomats he sneered at. For a politician, that is hypocritical.
    Not only that, but the reason why he didn't take the full Klingon army into the Gamma Quadrant to fight the Hur'q was because the KDF had spent the better part of two years doing nothing but fighting conflicts, and needed time to rebuild. Something the other factions admit is a state they have been in since the Iconian War themselves. Even then, he let Martok and Kurn take all the Klingon ship captains who wanted to go fight into the GQ to do so. That's a pretty good political move to not only ensure the continued stability of the Empire, by not letting what little forces you have left get destroyed in a conflict that ultimately had nothing to do with you, but also keep problems with dissidents down by letting them go off and do what they want.
    So Klingons are backing down from a huge, historical threat... because the Klingons are weak. Weaker than the Federation. Weakness is why they won't fight their traditional enemy? You are defending this... why? I have a hard time believing the Klingons would back down in the face of total annihilation, let alone against this particular foe.
    STO has CONSTANTLY shown that everything J'mpok has done was right. Even when it came to the Hur'q, he was ultimately right about the Hur'q being the Dominion's problem since we found out it was The Dominion who made that that way in the first place.
    What? No he hasn't. The Klingons were right about the Undine, but they handled it poorly, plunging the quadrant into a war that the Undine (and the Iconians) wanted. Other than that, all he has done is sit on Qo'nos and hand out mission briefings. The only other time he has actually done something personally, was to say "Hurq'? We cannot face them. We are too weak. Let the FEDERATION AND THE DOMINION FIGHT OUR TRADITIONAL ENEMY". He's a spineless politician, weaseling words while playing pretend as a warrior.
    Also, it was Zek who started the changes to Ferengi society after first being mind warped by the Prophets(though he as later put back to normal) and then by Ishka, Rom just continued them.
    Ok. Again, this was shown. J'mpok has not done anything to change Klingon culture, something you don't seem to dispute.
    This is also entirely incorrect. When Gornar was conquered J'mpok allowed them to keep their own king, and all their old laws and traditions, they just had to swear fealty to the empire. The Gorn were also given a non voting seat on the High Council. The Gorn have basically complete self rule, and some representation on the Council.
    Yes, that is what i said. They retained self governance, but had no say in anything. They have no representation on the council. A non-voting seat is useless, since they still have no say in policy.
    One could levy this same argument against Federation citizens. When was the last time we saw a Fed civie in a story mission? All we see are Starfleet officers, or high level diplomats, who aren't representative of the common Federation civie by your argument.
    This is a pointless statement. As I said:
    redvenge wrote: »
    The Federation has been established (more or less) by 50+ years of television shows, books, and games. The current KDF was established in the "Path to 2409" and that's it. It completely the product of Cryptic. Virtually NOTHING in the actual game itself talks about the state of the "affiliate races" and there are certainly no NPCs you can talk to about it.
    Except this is also entirely wrong as well, as Klingons, and Klingon lore, have been around since TOS, and have been the focus of numerous books, comics, and games, since then, just like the Federation has. Everything about how the Empire and Klingons act in-game is based off of the TV shows and movies. The only thing Cryptic invented for STO was the Gorn, Orions, Ferasans, Nausicaans, and Lethians, joining it. And we have known from the TV shows for ages that the Klingons had other races in their empire as well, we just never saw them, so this isn't even new either.
    This statement is the point. We are talking about Cryptic's KDF. Glad you are caught up. The issue is: Why should players care about Cryptic's KDF when Cryptic has done nothing to develop what they created?
    Because they have developed the KDF beyond the Path to 2409, which is why there is a Klingon playable faction, Klingon specific missions, and why Klingon characters have made frequent major appearances throughout the game's storyline.
    Being able to create a KDF character is not developing a faction. It's an aesthetic choice. The KDF specific missions are aimed towards Klingon-only characters and there are only a handful of them. The events in those arcs have no impact on the game once you finish them; outside of Worf and J'mpok, there are no reoccurring characters and they do not establish any places outside of Qo'nos.

    "Why should we care?" is established by creating places and characters that you could conceivably have an attachment to. Reoccurring characters, establishing more locations within the Empire; these story-telling techniques help build Cryptic's version of the KDF. It shows you who and what you are protecting and should establish why the current KDF is something you should protect and care about. None of this happens during the KDF missions. Those missions explore bits of Klingon-centric lore and set up the political structure, but don't really give you a reason to defend that structure.
    Hmm I don't know, maybe because all the history of Star Trek throughout the TV shows and movies has shown that the mindset of people like J'Ula is incredibly self destructive and damaging to the empire and always ends up getting it nearly destroyed. I also like this entirely baseless claim that the Feds and Romulan Republic don't care about the KDF or the state of the Empire when everything has shown the opposite.
    None of this makes any sense. The only reason the Empire agreed to the Khitomer Accords is because of an industrial accident that would have resulted in the collapse of the Empire. The Empire seemed to be doing just fine up until that point. An alternate timeline even showed they would have crushed the Federation, if the Enterprise-C had not been destroyed defending a colony from Romulans. I think your position is not so clear cut as you make it out to be.

    As for the Federation, it has been reluctant to engage in "internal matters" with the Klingon Empire. The only reason it does get involved, is for selfish reasons. The Romulans, under Datan, "don't take sides". So, if there is an "internal matter", it seems logical they would not get involved unless it was for selfish reasons.
    Again, because the players actually like the Klingon faction, and don't want to see it fall into the same problems we have seen it fall into in the TV shows and movies.
    Why do players like the KDF? It's current form is significantly different from what we have seen on the shows. This is even a common complaint ABOUT the current KDF faction! Cryptic went to some trouble to create a word doc describing the set-up and history resulting in the current playable faction, but that's it. Everything on the KDF side is "Klingon RAWR!", which does line up with what we see on many shows. However, it is also two dimensional, limiting the Klingons to a stereotype and leaves out all the other affiliate races. Why should any player care which politician is sitting on the High Council?

    If J'Ula becomes a personal enemy of the KDF player (which, will happen) your motivation will probably not be "save the KDF" (because no one cares about Cryptic's KDF). It will be "J'Ula wants your character dead", at that point it becomes a personal investment to not be dead. No one will be fighting J'Ula to "save" anything, because there is no reason to care.
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    The Iconians were by no means crazy, or unintelligent, and actually used fairly good infiltration, diversion, and divide and conquer, strategies in order to weaken he forces of the galaxy before their arrival. Had it not been for the fact that we are the "player character" they would have won.
    The Iconians are morons of the highest caliber. They are the dumbest enemies we have ever faced.

    They wasted significant amounts of time and resources faffing about when they could have crushed the defenders of the Alpha and Beta quadrants any time they wanted. All that nonsense about "infiltration" about "subterfuge" and they just show up with an entire Dyson sphere jam-packed with Heralds. The Alliance was losing not because of sneaky infiltrators but because the Iconians had overwhelming numbers, and had those numbers for who knows how long. They even had a "back-up" Dyson Sphere of Solenae, but we stopped that thanks to the leadership of Tom Paris. Even, then, one Dyson sphere was still more than enough to overwhelm our defenses.

    Then you have the actual implementation of that "gateway tech". Let's look at that "solar flare gateway" :This gateway fires a focused devastating beam of solar energy at a single target. So, why are they so inefficient with how they use it? Why open it outside a ship, where it has to burn through the hull and decks, when they can clearly open it inside the ship, maybe pointing at the warp core/singularity core? Why build hundreds of thousands of conventional munitions, when this weapon is all you need? In the first few seconds of any engagement, every single Allied ship goes "boom". A day later, you use the same weapon to disable power generation and communications across whole worlds; isolating your enemies and making a mockery of their "Grand Alliance". Inside a month, your enemies are living in the Dark Ages and you have not even introduced ground forces. In this scenario, you actually put that infiltration information to good use; identifying targets for destruction, then demanding surrender of your enemies. Within a year, the Iconians would have conquered everything, all because of one weapon that no one can defend against. It really says something when a Ferengi accidentally uses your technology more efficiently than YOU do. And you've had Gateway Tech for eons! Even the Pakleds would have used the tech more efficiently!

    You cannot take the Iconians seriously because they want to lose. They are "throwing the match". They are not scary, or intimidating. They are stupid.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    redvenge wrote: »
    The Iconians were by no means crazy, or unintelligent, and actually used fairly good infiltration, diversion, and divide and conquer, strategies in order to weaken he forces of the galaxy before their arrival. Had it not been for the fact that we are the "player character" they would have won.
    The Iconians are morons of the highest caliber. They are the dumbest enemies we have ever faced.

    They wasted significant amounts of time and resources faffing about when they could have crushed the defenders of the Alpha and Beta quadrants any time they wanted. All that nonsense about "infiltration" about "subterfuge" and they just show up with an entire Dyson sphere jam-packed with Heralds. The Alliance was losing not because of sneaky infiltrators but because the Iconians had overwhelming numbers, and had those numbers for who knows how long. They even had a "back-up" Dyson Sphere of Solenae, but we stopped that thanks to the leadership of Tom Paris. Even, then, one Dyson sphere was still more than enough to overwhelm our defenses.

    Then you have the actual implementation of that "gateway tech". Let's look at that "solar flare gateway" :This gateway fires a focused devastating beam of solar energy at a single target. So, why are they so inefficient with how they use it? Why open it outside a ship, where it has to burn through the hull and decks, when they can clearly open it inside the ship, maybe pointing at the warp core/singularity core? Why build hundreds of thousands of conventional munitions, when this weapon is all you need? In the first few seconds of any engagement, every single Allied ship goes "boom". A day later, you use the same weapon to disable power generation and communications across whole worlds; isolating your enemies and making a mockery of their "Grand Alliance". Inside a month, your enemies are living in the Dark Ages and you have not even introduced ground forces. In this scenario, you actually put that infiltration information to good use; identifying targets for destruction, then demanding surrender of your enemies. Within a year, the Iconians would have conquered everything, all because of one weapon that no one can defend against. It really says something when a Ferengi accidentally uses your technology more efficiently than YOU do. And you've had Gateway Tech for eons! Even the Pakleds would have used the tech more efficiently!

    You cannot take the Iconians seriously because they want to lose. They are "throwing the match". They are not scary, or intimidating. They are stupid.
    Yes, the iconian war could've been just a single cutscene in which they gated bombs into every military facility and murdered all the faction leaders in their sleep and then roll credits it's game over, the bad guys win.

    But making us fight dark space wizards in their black spiky ships of evil instead makes for a better game. ;)
  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    Well there is bias some against the Klingon faction . Heck they don't even get their own Discovery Faction. Something they should have done maybe they will but for now focusing on the federation side of it. When they go more into the Klingon Side of Thing on Discovery as we know they have been doing. Cryptic might just add more content for the Klingons. We know they said they are going to add in the discovery Klingon models I'm hoping it will be in January. My feeling is this they are building up to the Galactic Union they are doing this because well its easier. Basically how I see it is this, Federation and Klingon Empire alliance are being held together with the Romulan Republic as Glue. They are building up alliances and found they are stronger together. With the Ds9 Update they decided to bring back Martok. Since they had him killed off they used Torg as a plotline to say he never died. Jmpak was left in a bit of a bind, after the destruction of the High Council. The High Council would have to be rebuilt. Not to mention the Klingon's relied heavily on the Federation for Supplies, ever since the praxis disaster. The way the federation operates give it a lot of strength lots and lots of resources. Compared to the Klingon Empire. The Undine War and the Iconian assault on Kronos, and all the other wars and resources spent. Has left the Empire in Dire Straights. Then you have J'Ula who like her brother really hates the Federation hates what the Empire has become and there is many that feel the same way she does. But all three factions have reason to worry about her as well. She has the secrets to the Federation tech including the Spore Drive itself. It wouldn't take her too long to figure it out I think being in the twenty fifth century. It would explain why the Three factions are so Worried. They know the damage she could do if she was to figure it all out. It might even be the major factor in why it was so classified to begin with. The Klingon's knew about it and had reason to fear it. With J'Ula's return this technology is once more becoming out of storage. Then the Dire straights the Klingon empire is in cannot handle a Civil war. Which is why they are having us do the simulation and showed us what she stole.
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