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Star Trek Discovery and the "Kelvin Contamination Conspiracy"

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  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,412 Arc User
    So far nothing on this thread has been anything more than speculation based on some opinion assuming facts not in hand.

    I'd like more than some ramblings to work with so if you have something substantially more than the rumor mongering from midnight's edge, please provide it.
    What?

    Have you actually read anything I posted? Not looked at one link? Just hand waved everything as "rumor"?

    Why are you here? You are clearly not engaged in the conversation.
    brian334 wrote: »
    Now character assassination? Why? for the crime of not wholeheartedly agreeing with you?
    You told me I went off a cliff, and then started talking nonsense about corporations. Sticks and stones.
    brian334 wrote: »
    Everything, everything you have read or heard about the CBS license to Paramount is based on rumor. Period. None of the legal documents are available for examination.
    Everything is based on statements made by actual sources at CBS itself. Either directly or to publications. Try looking at some links and maybe READING what I posted.
    brian334 wrote: »
    Now, we can go back through history and find out how many times Midnight's Edge has been right versus how many times it's been wrong, and to be fair we'd have to do the same for every other so-called-fact introduced in support of one position or the other, and that would prove zero because sometimes even a liar tells the truth, and sometimes even honest people are mistaken.
    Irrelevant. If Midnight's Edge was right all the time or wrong all the time does not matter. What matter is here, in this instance, is what Midnight's Edge said in this video. Other claims will also be looked at individually.
    brian334 wrote: »
    So, we're back to square one: none of what you've heard is reliable, and you pick and choose the rumors you like to support the belief you like. That is the entire substance of the arguments both pro and con, and the refutations of those arguments.
    Wrong. Again.

    We have actual statements from the actual parties involved that we can compare to what Midnight's Edge claims with their "sources". What we PROVABLY KNOW does not line up with the claims made by Midnight's Edge.
    brian334 wrote: »
    So, no metaphors to confuse the easily confused, no ambiguous statements from Hollywood insiders, no conspiracy theories, just the cold hard truth. Take it like a man.
    What are you talking about? Again, I don't think you read anything in the thread this far. Your statement comes from obvious ignorance.

    I am not here to prove my theories as correct; I am here to prove that the theory put forward by Midnight's Edge is wrong.

    There is plenty of actual information available that can do this. For instance:

    Midnight's Edge claims that Paramount/Bad Robot invented the terms/concept of the Prime/Kelvin timlines. This is a key point in their argument, since it is part of the concept that "everything attached to the name Prime/Kelvin is not canon". However, a June 2016 Tweet by Holly Amos, Product Development Coordinator at CBS Consumer Products, stated "we needed an in-universe term since we needed some way to refer to it in the encyclopedia". The name was credited to Michael and Denise Okuda, authors of the 50th Anniversary Star Trek: Encyclopedia.



    So, Prime/Kelvin is a CBS invention which runs counter to the claim by Midnight's Edge. We can prove this.

    CBS is the only IP holder that can merchandise Star Trek merchandise. We can prove this too. This has been widely reported and CBS themselves even made the claim:
    "As the merchandising rights holder for Star Trek, CBS Consumer Products has ongoing relationships with all our partners, including Paramount," a spokesman for CBS Consumer Products said in a statement. "We have worked closely with them for the last five years to create merchandise to enhance the movies and satisfy fans.”

    https://www.thewrap.com/how-web-star-trek-rights-killed-jj-abrams-grand-ambitions-91766

    So, for Midnight's Edge to be correct, CBS has to be complicit in devaluing their existing Trek brand in order to sell more Kelvin/Discovery merchandise. Now maybe CBS is that foolish, but what I have done is point out that this is incredibly unlikely because it costs CBS in lost merchandise sales.

    This seems even even bigger stretch when CBS already told Paramount/Bad Robot "No" when Bad Robot asked CBS to shelve their existing Trek brands (yes, it is from the same article as the previous statement):

    https://www.thewrap.com/how-web-star-trek-rights-killed-jj-abrams-grand-ambitions-91766

    Now, where it gets murky is what we know about film rights between CBS and Paramount and merchandising agreements between them. I make no assumptions here. I just point out what we do know. This area is where Midnight's Edge differs from the point of this thread.

    They claim that CBS entered into an agreement with Paramount in which CBS will not make Star Trek televised content for 10 years and that Paramount's license included a clause to make everything "25% different" to separate Paramount Trek from CBS Trek. There is no way I can conclusively say "this is false". What I can do is point out how this makes no sense. I point out facts to keep in mind while watching the Midnight's Edge conspiracy video.

    Like how there is a deleted scene from Star Trek: Into Darkness showing an intact original series Constitution class starship. Midnight's Edge would have you believe that after making one movie with under the "25% restriction", they "forgot" that stipulation when making the second movie, but thankfully, some lawyer caught it in post. That seems... unlikely. Again.

    We have statements from the creators of Star Trek: Discovery who explain they cannot use content from the Paramount movies because Paramount holds the IP rights to the movie content:
    "Just because of the rights issue, we can’t use anything from the films, so that’s just something that we’re always aware of. ALL films, ’cause it’s a Paramount property, not CBS. said Bo Yeon Kim, writer for Star Trek: Discovery"
    https://trekmovie.com/2018/02/18/star-trek-discovery-writers-talk-captain-pike-klingons-having-two-organs-and-more/
    So, Star Trek: Discovery is made under the "Paramount license"... but cannot use any "Paramount material". Does that make any sense?

    You see, I do not have to provide an "alternate theory" I don't have to say "this is how things REALLY are". All I have to do is point out inconsistencies in the theory put forward by Midnight's Edge. So your claim of "it's all rumors" is nonsense.
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 2,595 Arc User
    I think it’s Alex Kurtzman’s involvement that is throwing people off. Oh he wrote the Kelvin movies and now is EP’ing Discovery so Discovery must be a Bad Robot Production.
    Yeah that’s not how Hollywood works
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  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,757 Arc User
    edited February 11
    redvenge wrote: »
    So far nothing on this thread has been anything more than speculation based on some opinion assuming facts not in hand.

    I'd like more than some ramblings to work with so if you have something substantially more than the rumor mongering from midnight's edge, please provide it.
    What?

    Have you actually read anything I posted? Not looked at one link? Just hand waved everything as "rumor"?

    Why are you here? You are clearly not engaged in the conversation.

    low bait flaming aside, you haven't actually said anything yet that brings actual proof to the table.
    I will be clear on this point: i don't want your fighting nonsense, i want you to link in actual proof instead of rumors, nothing more and nothing less.
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  • vegeta50024vegeta50024 Member Posts: 1,986 Arc User
    So, I would like to point out that there is another youtuber that essentially seems to praise that latest video that Midnight's Edge put out. He's clearly anti-Discovery, yet he does do rundowns of the show despite not liking the series. Granted, the goal is for him to entertain his subscribers, but he does make it clear in every video I've seen that he dislikes Discovery and hopes that Anas wins and CBS gets what he feels they deserve.

    Peresonally I don't understand how people could possibly buy into the idea of there being three distinct versions of Star Trek right now. My personal view on the situation is as follows:

    Prime Timeline events

    - The events of First Contact happens, Zephram Cochrane makes his warp flight and initiates first contact with Vulcans
    - The events of Enterprise happens.
    - Since Balthazar Edison was a MACO and was said to have fought in the Xindi & Romulan conflicts, he should be canon and assume was still lost in 2164.
    Kelvin Timeline split happens here <
    - Discovery & Section 31's events occur |
    - Everything from Kirk to Voyager happens |
    - Supernova that destroys Romulus, Spock disappears
    |
    - Picard series will be taking place a couple of years after Hobus.
    - Temporal Cold War happens not just in the events of the future, but in events in the past too

    Now, we have a tricky issue here, since Discovery was created AFTER the Kelvin Timeline was in existence, the characters probably do not exist as we know them, therefore, what happens in the Kelvin Timeline version of things is more unclear since after Beyond, the movie production essentially stalled. This is what I feel occurred:

    - 2063 to 2233 occurs as Prime timeline
    - Narada & Prime Spock enter the past here, KT splits from the prime timeline to become its own universe, USS Kelvin destroyed
    - 2255: Kelvin Timeline NCC-1701 USS Enterprise goes under construction, years later than it was assumed it was supposed to be. Kirk enters the academy.
    - 2258: Star Trek movie happens, With Kirk's actions to save the Federation, he moves up from Cadet to full Captain.
    - 2259: Kirk and the Enterprise encounter Khan years earlier than in the Prime timeline
    - 2260: The Enterprise crew embark on their 5 years sooner than their Prime timeline counterparts, following extensive repairs from the year's events.
    - 2263: In the Enterprise's third year of its five year mission, it gets damaged beyond repair due to Edison's attack. A replacement ship, the USS Enterprise-A is commissioned in its place, heading back to its five year misison. (Worth noting that its about 26 years earlier than the Enterprise-A gets commissioned in the prime timeline)

    I though would like to think that characters like Georgiou, T'Kuvma, Tilly etc. still existed in the Kelvin Timeline, but they had different outcomes due to the disruptions. The only way we will know for sure is if there is some kind of documentation on these characters in the Kelvin Timeline. For now, they will remain headcanon for me.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,082 Bug Hunter
    I though would like to think that characters like Georgiou, T'Kuvma, Tilly etc. still existed in the Kelvin Timeline, but they had different outcomes due to the disruptions. The only way we will know for sure is if there is some kind of documentation on these characters in the Kelvin Timeline. For now, they will remain headcanon for me.

    I haven't checked any dates but Burnham is younger than Spock so is born after 2233 so any DSC character younger than her doesn't necessarily exist. And with Praxis going much earlier in the KT that disaster might have unified the Houses leaving T'Kuvma out in the cold.
    Though as all of the Enterprise's bridge crew are younger than Kirk (save for Spock, Scotty, and McCoy) and they all still exist there's probably some resonance going on between the Kelvin and Prime Timelines.
    Georgiou picked Saru up from his homeworld about the early 2230s but we never hear of the rest of Starfleet in the KT at all. A bunch of cadets in ancient ships get all blowed up by Nero but (like the TOS films) the Enterprise is basically the only ship in the fleet.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,412 Arc User
    low bait flaming aside, you haven't actually said anything yet that brings actual proof to the table.
    I will be clear on this point: i don't want your fighting nonsense, i want you to link in actual proof instead of rumors, nothing more and nothing less.
    You are either being willfully ignorant or trolling. You've said nothing of substance and continue to handwave actual statements from CBS as "rumors".
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 47,827 Arc User
    Another detail is that having posession of the Narada for as long as they did, the Klingons were probably assessing the Romulan threat level a bit more considering the crew was Romulan.

    And my 2 ECs on the current "rumor vs fact" debate... anything Midnight's Edge is involved in is instantly suspect due to bias. So any information from his YouTube Channel may be skewed and thus not totally reliable. Or to use a line that everyone thinks was stupid... he may be giving us "alternative facts". So right now we're more likely to believe things if it came DIRECT from the show runners than we would if it came secondhand through Midnight's Edge.
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,668 Arc User
    > @rattler2 said:
    > Another detail is that having posession of the Narada for as long as they did, the Klingons were probably assessing the Romulan threat level a bit more considering the crew was Romulan.
    >
    > And my 2 ECs on the current "rumor vs fact" debate... anything Midnight's Edge is involved in is instantly suspect due to bias. So any information from his YouTube Channel may be skewed and thus not totally reliable. Or to use a line that everyone thinks was stupid... he may be giving us "alternative facts". So right now we're more likely to believe things if it came DIRECT from the show runners than we would if it came secondhand through Midnight's Edge.

    Yeah, except for the part where the showrunners spent the entire first season lying to the audience about what was going on. :trollface:
    "Two ways to view the world, so similar at times / Two ways to rule the world, to justify their crimes / By Kings and Queens young men are sent to die in war / Their propaganda speaks those words been heard before"
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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 2,595 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    I though would like to think that characters like Georgiou, T'Kuvma, Tilly etc. still existed in the Kelvin Timeline, but they had different outcomes due to the disruptions. The only way we will know for sure is if there is some kind of documentation on these characters in the Kelvin Timeline. For now, they will remain headcanon for me.

    I haven't checked any dates but Burnham is younger than Spock so is born after 2233 so any DSC character younger than her doesn't necessarily exist. And with Praxis going much earlier in the KT that disaster might have unified the Houses leaving T'Kuvma out in the cold.
    Though as all of the Enterprise's bridge crew are younger than Kirk (save for Spock, Scotty, and McCoy) and they all still exist there's probably some resonance going on between the Kelvin and Prime Timelines.
    Georgiou picked Saru up from his homeworld about the early 2230s but we never hear of the rest of Starfleet in the KT at all. A bunch of cadets in ancient ships get all blowed up by Nero but (like the TOS films) the Enterprise is basically the only ship in the fleet.​​

    Burnham is older than Spock. She was born in 2226. Spock was born in 2230.
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,412 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    Yeah, except for the part where the showrunners spent the entire first season lying to the audience about what was going on. :trollface:
    Yeah...

    i'm not gonna use Harberts or Berg for a source. I do quote writers, directors, prop and makeup artists from Star Trek: Discovery or from CBS itself.

    Something I find frustrating is how Midnight's Edge says the theory is "rumor" and several viewers and even some web journalists report it as fact. For months, detractors of STDZ have been claiming "Discovery is not canon", without proof. Now, they are using this video as propaganda proving "they were right".

    Even though it does not make sense.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,082 Bug Hunter
    khan5000 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    I though would like to think that characters like Georgiou, T'Kuvma, Tilly etc. still existed in the Kelvin Timeline, but they had different outcomes due to the disruptions. The only way we will know for sure is if there is some kind of documentation on these characters in the Kelvin Timeline. For now, they will remain headcanon for me.

    I haven't checked any dates but Burnham is younger than Spock so is born after 2233 so any DSC character younger than her doesn't necessarily exist. And with Praxis going much earlier in the KT that disaster might have unified the Houses leaving T'Kuvma out in the cold.
    Though as all of the Enterprise's bridge crew are younger than Kirk (save for Spock, Scotty, and McCoy) and they all still exist there's probably some resonance going on between the Kelvin and Prime Timelines.
    Georgiou picked Saru up from his homeworld about the early 2230s but we never hear of the rest of Starfleet in the KT at all. A bunch of cadets in ancient ships get all blowed up by Nero but (like the TOS films) the Enterprise is basically the only ship in the fleet.

    Burnham is older than Spock. She was born in 2226. Spock was born in 2230.

    I did say I hadn't checked any dates.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • marty123#3757 marty123 Member Posts: 612 Arc User
    > @redvenge said:
    > mirrorchaos wrote: »
    >
    > So far nothing on this thread has been anything more than speculation based on some opinion assuming facts not in hand.
    >
    > I'd like more than some ramblings to work with so if you have something substantially more than the rumor mongering from midnight's edge, please provide it.
    >
    >
    >
    > What?
    >
    > Have you actually read anything I posted? Not looked at one link? Just hand waved everything as "rumor"?
    >
    > Why are you here? You are clearly not engaged in the conversation. brian334 wrote: »
    >
    > Now character assassination? Why? for the crime of not wholeheartedly agreeing with you?
    >
    >
    >
    > You told me I went off a cliff, and then started talking nonsense about corporations. Sticks and stones.
    > brian334 wrote: »
    >
    > Everything, everything you have read or heard about the CBS license to Paramount is based on rumor. Period. None of the legal documents are available for examination.
    >
    >
    >
    > Everything is based on statements made by actual sources at CBS itself. Either directly or to publications. Try looking at some links and maybe READING what I posted.
    > brian334 wrote: »
    >
    > Now, we can go back through history and find out how many times Midnight's Edge has been right versus how many times it's been wrong, and to be fair we'd have to do the same for every other so-called-fact introduced in support of one position or the other, and that would prove zero because sometimes even a liar tells the truth, and sometimes even honest people are mistaken.
    >
    >
    >
    > Irrelevant. If Midnight's Edge was right all the time or wrong all the time does not matter. What matter is here, in this instance, is what Midnight's Edge said in this video. Other claims will also be looked at individually.
    > brian334 wrote: »
    >
    > So, we're back to square one: none of what you've heard is reliable, and you pick and choose the rumors you like to support the belief you like. That is the entire substance of the arguments both pro and con, and the refutations of those arguments.
    >
    >
    >
    > Wrong. Again.
    >
    > We have actual statements from the actual parties involved that we can compare to what Midnight's Edge claims with their "sources". What we PROVABLY KNOW does not line up with the claims made by Midnight's Edge.
    > brian334 wrote: »
    >
    > So, no metaphors to confuse the easily confused, no ambiguous statements from Hollywood insiders, no conspiracy theories, just the cold hard truth. Take it like a man.
    >
    >
    >
    > What are you talking about? Again, I don't think you read anything in the thread this far. Your statement comes from obvious ignorance.
    >
    > I am not here to prove my theories as correct; I am here to prove that the theory put forward by Midnight's Edge is wrong.
    >
    > There is plenty of actual information available that can do this. For instance:
    >
    > Midnight's Edge claims that Paramount/Bad Robot invented the terms/concept of the Prime/Kelvin timlines. This is a key point in their argument, since it is part of the concept that "everything attached to the name Prime/Kelvin is not canon". However, a June 2016 Tweet by Holly Amos, Product Development Coordinator at CBS Consumer Products, stated "we needed an in-universe term since we needed some way to refer to it in the encyclopedia". The name was credited to Michael and Denise Okuda, authors of the 50th Anniversary Star Trek: Encyclopedia.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > So, Prime/Kelvin is a CBS invention which runs counter to the claim by Midnight's Edge. We can prove this.
    >
    > CBS is the only IP holder that can merchandise Star Trek merchandise. We can prove this too. This has been widely reported and CBS themselves even made the claim:
    > "As the merchandising rights holder for Star Trek, CBS Consumer Products has ongoing relationships with all our partners, including Paramount," a spokesman for CBS Consumer Products said in a statement. "We have worked closely with them for the last five years to create merchandise to enhance the movies and satisfy fans.”
    >
    > https://www.thewrap.com/how-web-star-trek-rights-killed-jj-abrams-grand-ambitions-91766
    >
    > So, for Midnight's Edge to be correct, CBS has to be complicit in devaluing their existing Trek brand in order to sell more Kelvin/Discovery merchandise. Now maybe CBS is that foolish, but what I have done is point out that this is incredibly unlikely because it costs CBS in lost merchandise sales.
    >
    > This seems even even bigger stretch when CBS already told Paramount/Bad Robot "No" when Bad Robot asked CBS to shelve their existing Trek brands (yes, it is from the same article as the previous statement):
    >
    > https://www.thewrap.com/how-web-star-trek-rights-killed-jj-abrams-grand-ambitions-91766
    >
    > Now, where it gets murky is what we know about film rights between CBS and Paramount and merchandising agreements between them. I make no assumptions here. I just point out what we do know. This area is where Midnight's Edge differs from the point of this thread.
    >
    > They claim that CBS entered into an agreement with Paramount in which CBS will not make Star Trek televised content for 10 years and that Paramount's license included a clause to make everything "25% different" to separate Paramount Trek from CBS Trek. There is no way I can conclusively say "this is false". What I can do is point out how this makes no sense. I point out facts to keep in mind while watching the Midnight's Edge conspiracy video.
    >
    > Like how there is a deleted scene from Star Trek: Into Darkness showing an intact original series Constitution class starship. Midnight's Edge would have you believe that after making one movie with under the "25% restriction", they "forgot" that stipulation when making the second movie, but thankfully, some lawyer caught it in post. That seems... unlikely. Again.
    >
    > We have statements from the creators of Star Trek: Discovery who explain they cannot use content from the Paramount movies because Paramount holds the IP rights to the movie content:
    > "Just because of the rights issue, we can’t use anything from the films, so that’s just something that we’re always aware of. ALL films, ’cause it’s a Paramount property, not CBS. said Bo Yeon Kim, writer for Star Trek: Discovery"
    > https://trekmovie.com/2018/02/18/star-trek-discovery-writers-talk-captain-pike-klingons-having-two-organs-and-more/
    > So, Star Trek: Discovery is made under the "Paramount license"... but cannot use any "Paramount material". Does that make any sense?
    >
    > You see, I do not have to provide an "alternate theory" I don't have to say "this is how things REALLY are". All I have to do is point out inconsistencies in the theory put forward by Midnight's Edge. So your claim of "it's all rumors" is nonsense.

    I tried to start a thread earlier talking about the apparent situation we’re in but I was just attacked by people in denial because “Midnight Edge was wrong before, therefore they are lying”
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,082 Bug Hunter
    I tried to start a thread earlier talking about the apparent situation we’re in but I was just attacked by people in denial because “Midnight Edge was wrong before, therefore they are lying”

    Nope. You presented as fact baseless speculation by a known source of baseless rumour. The fact that you have no idea how to critically evaluate evidence doesn't mean everyone is out to get you, it means you need better sources if you don't want to be laughed at.

    Does it not strike you as odd that the only people who believe ME without question are people who decided they didn't like DSC before it even came out? Obviously not because that would require internal evaluation which would require more than one source of information.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,757 Arc User
    edited February 11
    redvenge wrote: »
    low bait flaming aside, you haven't actually said anything yet that brings actual proof to the table.
    I will be clear on this point: i don't want your fighting nonsense, i want you to link in actual proof instead of rumors, nothing more and nothing less.
    You are either being willfully ignorant or trolling. You've said nothing of substance and continue to handwave actual statements from CBS as "rumors".

    Great... i ask you to provide proof and your still playing games. i've had enough of this nonsense and i'm going to see if anyone else can actually provide some proof since you are clearly unwilling.
    I tried to start a thread earlier talking about the apparent situation we’re in but I was just attacked by people in denial because “Midnight Edge was wrong before, therefore they are lying”

    Rumors and speculation is nothing more than people saying things, not always true. the idea is to provide proof to these claims. You can't just say something is true when you quote from an unreliable source that wants to stir the pot for no good reason. you need multiple sources that provide hard facts without any conjecture in any form. Sometimes the media gets it right and sometimes they get it so wrong they have to retract it.

    I can't just accept it at face value, no one would and if the roles were reversed, i doubt you and redvenge would either. So i'm not insulting either of your intelligences. i just want to get to the facts and the facts alone and that is now the second time i've asked that.
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