Picard's Brother and Nephew Deaths

startrekron

So I was watching Generations last night and the scene where Picard finds out his brother (Robert) and nephew (Rene) perished in a fire was emotional punch to the gut. I've often wondered how this happened.

At first I thought there might have been a drought at the Picard vineyard that caused the fire but then I remembered that Earth's weather is now controlled by a weather net.

I also wondered what happened to Rene's Mother since Jean Luc never mentioned if she survived the fire (though Memory Alpha says she did). Was she in the fire and escaped or was she somewhere else? Did she inform our captain or was the message directly from Star Fleet?

I also wonder how a fire would have even spread fast enough to kill them. I would think the family of a such prominent member of Star Fleet (captian of your flagship) would be monitor in some small way? Satellites by this time probably would detect a fire quite quickly and would enable fire crews to be dispatched in minutes via transporters.

So how did this happen? Did Soran or another of Picard's enemies murder Robert and his son? Just seems like it would be next to impossible for such a prominent family to perish in a fire given the resources of the time.

Any ideas or thoughts about what happened? Any mention of this in comics, novels, or games I might have missed?

brian334

I thought at the time it was a simple case of trying to humanize the character. In my opinion it was unnecessary because, a) Stewart can act, and b) it was a cheap form of tragedy akin to the pretty sl*t being the first victim in a slasher. It would have been more poignant had there been a visible tragedy such as a relationship with an away team member who was killed by the exploding star or by psycho-boy with the gangsta-phaser on the observatory. Commander Daren would have been good for the spot, especially if her setup included her and Picard discussing their desire to start work on a mini-Picard.

I admit I had never considered the aspect of 'modern' (future) fire safety. Those old wood and plaster buildings could burn pretty quickly once they got started, especially one as old as the Picard Estate. By the time occupants are aware of the fire, it's already surrounded them. It's why we don't build that way any more.

You are right: fire suppressant systems should have been all over that old pile of kindling.

The details were never given, so it might have been a case of the power pack in a vehicle going up in smoke for all I know. But whatever the case, the Picard line need not end. All he has to do is donate to the local baby-bank and let the prospective single moms line up for a dose of long-distance love juice.

legendarylycan

a building that old it still uses highly flammable building material AND it somehow survived global nuclear war? i don't think so...the building had to have been redone at some point either before or after WW3 - both of which would have included using modern (for the time) fire-resistant materials

hell, just upgrading the thing with electricity and plumbing would've necessitated replacing at least SOME of the material with fire-retardants if not the entire structure​​

brian334

Just imagine, though: Picard and Daren talking about having a baby when Worf's party is over, then Daren getting shot by Blondie, then Picard meeting his family in the Nexus, knowing Daren is dead. I think that would be much more powerful. There are probably even better ways.

starswordc

> @shadowfang240 said:
> a building that old it still uses highly flammable building material AND it somehow survived global nuclear war? i don't think so...the building had to have been redone at some point either before or after WW3 - both of which would have included using modern (for the time) fire-resistant materials
>
> hell, just upgrading the thing with electricity and plumbing would've necessitated replacing at least SOME of the material with fire-retardants if not the entire structure​​

It's not as unrealistic as you'd think.

Even a global nuclear war would have primarily targeted population centers, and missile guidance has gotten pretty good (not that accuracy is exactly a serious concern with strategic nukes, but you want to at least be in the genrgen area). So Paris? Rouen? Other major cities? Probably plastered. A vineyard in the middle of nowhere? Subject to fallout and anarchy but potentially can survive.

Second, renovation codes for historic buildings generally require a good percentage of the original structure to remain intact, which means there are certain compromises that have to be made. There are things you're required to do to upgrade fire resistance but nothing is ever perfect.

Also, it's entirely possible it was a wildfire that caught them in the open rather than a housefire.

legendarylycan

how would a wildfire even start? with a weather control network, you have the ability to keep any area of the planet from becoming too dry and causing prime conditions for wildfires to start​​

khan5000

It was a plot-created Fire much like the rest of the movie

starswordc

shadowfang240 wrote: »

how would a wildfire even start? with a weather control network, you have the ability to keep any area of the planet from becoming too dry and causing prime conditions for wildfires to start​​

Believe it or not, many biomes require occasional wildfires. Fire clears out brush and dead trees that if left unchecked will allow for much bigger fires: the colossal forest-destroying fires we've seen since the 1950s could only happen because brush and leaf litter was allowed to build up unchecked by smaller fires (thanks to overzealous firefighting) until one little spark or some knucklehead with a cigarette got lucky. And some species of conifers in the western United States have actually evolved to open their pine cones when they feel the heat, because the leavings of the fire makes it easier for their seeds to germinate. There are many species of eucalyptus in Australia that operate similarly: they've evolved to resist fire and quickly put out new growth afterwards because it gives established trees an advantage. Nowadays many fire departments and forestry services set fires in rural areas deliberately to mimic natural wildfires, because we've gotten too good at putting them out.

You can say the same of other "natural disasters". The natural ecosystem along much of the southeastern United States relies quite a bit on the occasional tropical storm or hurricane refilling the watersheds, since it's too warm down here for mountain snowpack to do the job (the southern Appalachians aren't tall enough).

So if United Earth has any sense at all, they don't tip the scales with weather control very much.

jonsills

starswordc wrote: »

Even a global nuclear war would have primarily targeted population centers, and missile guidance has gotten pretty good (not that accuracy is exactly a serious concern with strategic nukes, but you want to at least be in the genrgen area).

Acceptable CEP (Circular Error Probable) for a nuclear weapon as of the mid-'80s was 600 feet - that is, it would be expected to strike within 300 feet of its target. This applied to ICBMs, cruise missiles, and gravity bombs (air-dropped munitions). I would imagine that with improvements in guidance technology over the decades, it would have gotten better, with a smaller CEP. (That's just a guess, of course, as I haven't had a security clearance since '90.) After all, the point of a nuclear weapon is to destroy the target, not just plaster the area indiscriminately - you could do that less expensively with old-fashioned firebombs.

ryan218

As @starswordc says, it would be stupid for UE to use the weather control system to literally temperify the entire planet. It's never elaborated how the weather control is used exactly, but we know it's capable of essentially 'scheduling' weather phenomenon (TNG episode with the half-Q girl) and is clearly used at the very least to control extreme weather (hurricanes, tornadoes, etc). However, we also hear Robert grumbling about a lack of rain if I recall, so small-scale weather systems likely remain unencumbered.

As for the building itself, many European countries have regulations protecting historic buildings (listed-building status in UK), which prevents the basic structure of the building being changed, including the building materials. If the fire started at night, when the Picard's were asleep, it's entirely possible the blaze trapped them before they could get out. Robert was not a young man, and Rene was a child, basically, the two age groups most at risk of being trapped in a fire. That means they might not be able to get out, and might not be able to reach a comm terminal (most homes in Star Trek appear to have only one). Outside of Starfleet, we see little in the way of portable comms in Star Trek (to the point where it's notable by its absence).

I actually disagree that Daren would have been better. This is before home video (let alone streaming and 'binge-watching') were commonplace. You think the emotional impact of Picard's brother and nephew dying was lacklustre? What about some geologist we only see once who has the personality of cardboard and whose last encounter with Picard specifically ended with them deciding not to have a relationship? You'd be better off with Vash. The writers at least made an effort to give those two chemistry.

brian334

Yeah, but we all know Vash has 82mm of laminated Plot Armor.

khan5000

The idea that both Picard and Kirk’s greatest desire and wish was to have families should have been dropped. A fitting arc would have been Picard offered a promotion and an office somewhere and him dealing with that.

starswordc

> @ryan218 said:
> I actually disagree that Daren would have been better. This is before home video (let alone streaming and 'binge-watching') were commonplace. You think the emotional impact of Picard's brother and nephew dying was lacklustre? What about some geologist we only see once who has the personality of cardboard and whose last encounter with Picard specifically ended with them deciding not to have a relationship? You'd be better off with Vash. The writers at least made an effort to give those two chemistry.

Frankly the movie was lousy with fairly obscure call-backs anyway, or at least call-backs too obscure for viewers who weren't avid TNG watchers (remember: audience for a theatrical film ≠ audience for a TV show). It's like the decision in the original Star Wars to change the MacGuffin from kyber crystals (as originally scripted) to the Death Star plans: unlike the crystals you don't have to explain why the latter is important, just like you don't have to explain why Picard's blood family is important.

brian334

Yeah, it would have required reference to an intimate relationship in the film for the Daren thing to work. But the brother/nephew thing while sad, was far too remote for the audience to feel anything but, "Awww..." and then for that to prompt regrets for a lifetime spent on other than family pursuits is a leap too far. Picard has never shown such a desire, anywhere in his background and certainly not anywhere in that film. He is 'not a family guy' in any way.

Which is why I suggested an on-screen discussion of family plans would be a better setup for the family scene in The Nexus. There would have been an indication that this was something Picard desired, rather than something he regretted because of circumstances.

After all, The Nexus was supposed to give you the illusion of what you most desired. We all know Picard's strongest desire was to be captain of a starship. And we all now he felt a family would be a hindrance to that. So, The Nexus doesn't work right or him apparently.

starswordc

brian334 wrote: »

Yeah, it would have required reference to an intimate relationship in the film for the Daren thing to work. But the brother/nephew thing while sad, was far too remote for the audience to feel anything but, "Awww..." and then for that to prompt regrets for a lifetime spent on other than family pursuits is a leap too far. Picard has never shown such a desire, anywhere in his background and certainly not anywhere in that film. He is 'not a family guy' in any way.

Which is why I suggested an on-screen discussion of family plans would be a better setup for the family scene in The Nexus. There would have been an indication that this was something Picard desired, rather than something he regretted because of circumstances.

After all, The Nexus was supposed to give you the illusion of what you most desired. We all know Picard's strongest desire was to be captain of a starship. And we all now he felt a family would be a hindrance to that. So, The Nexus doesn't work right or him apparently.

He's already achieved that dream, though (twice, in fact). And one can dream of more than one thing: Just because you're married to the job doesn't automatically mean you won't regret not taking other potential choices.

(And of course, in STO's canon he ultimately did have a family: he and Dr. Crusher got together after she left the Enterprise and now have a son, who married Riker and Troi's kid.)

This is one of those places I wish folks like Ron Moore had been given more room to write earlier in the series: he had this great idea for IIRC "Captain's Holiday" where Picard would come to the realization that he was a little afraid of growing old, if for no other reason than it made him less able to do the things he loved like commanding a starship and boldly going. Roddenberry vetoed it on grounds that "people don't fear growing old in the future, but I like this idea of getting the Captain laid..."