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The Man in the High Castle

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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 33,346 Arc User
    the british never even GOT anything from lend-lease in the high castle universe because it never occurred - mostly thanks to the US never having recovered from the depression, but also likely because of FDR's successful assassination by giuseppe, since he was the one who spearheaded the lend-lease program in reality, without him alive to do so in high castle...well, the results speak for themselves​​
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,830 Arc User
    edited November 20
    germany never truly invaded the united states in the high castle 'verse - they didn't need to; what was left of the government surrendered after germany dropped a heisenberg device (see: atomic bomb) on the white house, so german forces just waltzed right on in the same way american forces did after committing THEIR war crimes against hiroshima and nagasaki - though admittedly, their occupation didn't solidify until 2 years later​​
    the british never even GOT anything from lend-lease in the high castle universe because it never occurred - mostly thanks to the US never having recovered from the depression, but also likely because of FDR's successful assassination by giuseppe, since he was the one who spearheaded the lend-lease program in reality, without him alive to do so in high castle...well, the results speak for themselves​​

    That still doesn't address the practical problems of invading either Britain or the United States. The Kriegsmarine wasn't up to taking the Royal Navy out of the war, and the Luftwaffe lost the Battle of Britain in large part because it was a tactical air force designed for close air support to the Heer, that was attempting to carry out a strategic mission of destroying the enemy infrastructure. You know, the kind the Allies carried out with Lancasters, B-17s and B-29s later in the war. The Luftwaffe didn't even get a comparable four-engine bomber into service until '42, which again, was partly because of the higher-ups rectal-cranial inversion: aside from rampant reliability issues (a problem common in German war machines), they kept insisting the He 177 be outfitted to dive-bomb.

    And nukes? Again, not happening: the German nuclear program was dead in the water even before the Vemork commando raid because they'd scared off or killed the bulk of their own nuclear physics talent years before.

    Basically, the problem with these kinds of alternate histories is how much you have to change about how people historically acted or would be likely to act. They're working backwards from a desired outcome and having to implausibly fudge a lot of details to force that outcome, instead of making a change and working forwards. To borrow a Crusader Kings II analogy, it's the difference between:
    • an ATL where Germany stays pagan, the Lombards stay in power in Italy, and the Moors get past the Pyrenees (at least for a while) because Karl son of Pepin tripped on the stairs and broke his neck at age 20, thus never becoming the Holy Roman Emperor Charlemagne. That kind of thing happens all the time in the game: AI Charlemagne is really bad at being Charlemagne.
    • an ATL where the Aztecs develop oceangoing ships and invade Western Europe in the 12th century. Yes, that actually happens in an optional DLC. Never mind that the Aztec Empire didn't even exist until the 1400s, no Native American civilization ever developed the technology needed for blue-water travel (the Aztecs never even developed the wheeled wagon). It didn't even exist in Europe outside Scandinavia until at least the 1300s.
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 921 Arc User
    edited November 20
    The alternate version of Hitler was apparently smarter than the real world one. If he had kept the holocaust policies under wraps a little longer it is vaguely possible that extra progress might have been enough to develop an atomic bomb.

    As for the bombers, the real-world plans involved Horner-designed heavy long-range bombers that were essentially a much larger version of the HO-229 light fighter-bombers (a lot of people point to the 229 itself, but it did not have the range to do cross-Atlantic missions even with its high efficiency). That was such a part of public consciousness after the war that Marvel used an exaggerated version of the plane in "Captain America: First Avenger" even after all this time so I would imagine that the real (but unbuilt) version (which the US B-2 bomber was based on btw) was what PKD used in the book.

    The HO-229 was the deadliest aircraft the Germans produced, it outclassed every other fighter at that time, including their own jets like the Me-262. By the end of the war they only had a few prototypes in the air but their performance was fantastic compared to anything else then flying, and they were almost invisible to radar (not by design, the Germans were just as surprised as everyone else about that, though later they sought to capitalize on it and enhance it if they could), and if the war had gone on for just a few more weeks they would have had the first large production batch of them out which could very well have given them air superiority back.

    That stealth capability would have allowed them to slip through Allied defenses and wreak quite a bit of havoc (like destroying Allied airbases), and their speed would have made interception without prior warning from the radar net nearly impossible.

    Post edited by phoenixc#0738 on
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 34,540 Arc User
    germany never truly invaded the united states in the high castle 'verse - they didn't need to; what was left of the government surrendered after germany dropped a heisenberg device (see: atomic bomb) on the white house, so german forces just waltzed right on in the same way american forces did after committing THEIR war crimes against hiroshima and nagasaki - though admittedly, their occupation didn't solidify until 2 years later​​
    Well, this is kinda why I was saying this is sci-fi and not historical fiction. It requires multiple changes to reality and even has time travel!
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,994 Arc User
    Speaking of Alternate History TV shows, has anyone seen For All Mankind and what is your opinion? The premise is the Soviets beat the Americans to put a man on the moon resulting in further Lunar Exploration and Development than we experienced.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 33,346 Arc User
    i can't imagine the soviets putting a man on the moon would've drastically changed anything from what happened when WE did...namely, they go up there, realize the moon is a worthless rock, then shelve all further attempts for the next 5 decades​​
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    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    How Game Devs SHOULD be interacted with:
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    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"

    "Beware of dog. Or possibly, enhanced, psycho-addicted, cybernetically-enhanced nightstalker death-dealing dog from hell."
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.

    Stand with Star Trek: The Animated Series content for STO! #TASforSTO
  • garaks31garaks31 Member Posts: 2,665 Arc User
    but then in universe the further missions discover water there and u.s. wants to build a military base on the moon before the soviets... that show makes me happy. in real live humanity is so behind in space exploration...
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,994 Arc User
    i can't imagine the soviets putting a man on the moon would've drastically changed anything from what happened when WE did...namely, they go up there, realize the moon is a worthless rock, then shelve all further attempts for the next 5 decades​​

    America was in competition with the Soviets and since the Soviets had the first spacecraft orbiting the Earth with Sputnik, then the American had to beat the Soviets by putting a man on the Moon first. If the Soviets beat the Americans by putting one of their men on the Moon first, then the Americans would have to beat the Soviets in something else. Childish competition is great for Space Exploration.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 34,540 Arc User
    garaks31 wrote: »
    but then in universe the further missions discover water there and u.s. wants to build a military base on the moon before the soviets... that show makes me happy. in real live humanity is so behind in space exploration...
    Yeah, a lot of people think that it was politics that got the space program funding. In part it was practical because we were afraid the Russians would build military stuff in orbit or on the moon and we wanted to make sure they didn't get sole control.
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