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The Man in the High Castle

garaks31garaks31 Member Posts: 2,666 Arc User
edited August 2018 in Ten Forward
A glimpse into an alternate history of North America. What life after WWII may have been like if the Nzs had won the war.











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  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,696 Arc User
    I may have to get Amazon Prime to watch it, sounds a good watch
    NMXb2ph.png
      "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
      -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
    • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 33,354 Arc User
      i should hope so...there are too few pieces of media depicting a world where the TRIBBLE won WW2 in anything greater than a few scattered mentions or isolated scenes - movies, books, TV AND games combined​​
      Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!

      "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

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      http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/157238832062/i-remember-your-52080-rule-and-it-was-an-awesome

      "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"

      "Beware of dog. Or possibly, enhanced, psycho-addicted, cybernetically-enhanced nightstalker death-dealing dog from hell."
      Passion and Serenity are one.
      I gain power by understanding both.
      In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
      I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
      The Force is united within me.

      Stand with Star Trek: The Animated Series content for STO! #TASforSTO
    • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 7,715 Arc User
      Man I have been slacking off. It's season 3 already?
    • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,696 Arc User
      I've still not seen the first two seasons yet
      NMXb2ph.png
        "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
        -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
      • sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,365 Arc User
        it's an awesome tv show, can't wait the season 3. Alexa davalos is perfect in her role.
        ___________________________________________________________________
        Kentoc'h mervel eget bezañ saotret (Potius Mori Quam Foedari)
        __________________________________________________________________
        Anne of Brittany

        Un ali mat zo mat bepred Ha pa ve digant ur sot e ve
        (Good advice is always good, even though it comes from an idiot).
      • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,696 Arc User
        The whole alternate history aspect is interesting, a world where the Axis won WW2 sounds intriguing
        NMXb2ph.png
          "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
          -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
        • equinox976equinox976 Member Posts: 2,154 Arc User
          I read the book and found it very plodding, boring, and overrated.
          Does the T.V show stick to the book or does it have a more interesting plot line?


        • garaks31garaks31 Member Posts: 2,666 Arc User
        • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 34,559 Arc User
          One amusing thing is that the Axis didn't want to take over the world. They were apparently planning to stop at conquering Europe. But who know what they'd have done if they had won.
          -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
          My character Tsin'xing
          Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
        • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,696 Arc User
          Japan wanted Eastern Asia and the Western Pacific
          NMXb2ph.png
            "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
            -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
          • garaks31garaks31 Member Posts: 2,666 Arc User
            if we could have gotten in the multiverse stuff earlier this show would be as successful as g.o.t. the slider tunnel is a nice base concept like the stargate...
          • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,864 Arc User
            Never have been interested in "n.a.z.is won" alternate histories. The only place for n.a.z.is in fiction is as bullet sponges, zombie food, or bonfire fuel.
            There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

            One man's theology is another man's belly laugh.

            You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.

            Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events.

            Robert Heinlein
          • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,008 Arc User
            azrael605 wrote: »
            Never have been interested in "n.a.z.is won" alternate histories. The only place for n.a.z.is in fiction is as bullet sponges, zombie food, or bonfire fuel.

            The "n.a.z.is won" is only a small portion of the interest behind alternate histories. It is interesting to see how our reality might change due to some significant historical event being altered like what if the cold war never happened or the other presidential candidate was elected. Which is why I would like to see a Sliders reboot.

            "N.a.z.is won" alternate histories are likely a warning to prevent it from happening again. "Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it."
          • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 33,354 Arc User
            or 'what if the confederate army won at gettysburg?'​​
            Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!

            "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

            How Game Devs SHOULD be interacted with:
            http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/157238832062/i-remember-your-52080-rule-and-it-was-an-awesome

            "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"

            "Beware of dog. Or possibly, enhanced, psycho-addicted, cybernetically-enhanced nightstalker death-dealing dog from hell."
            Passion and Serenity are one.
            I gain power by understanding both.
            In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
            I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
            The Force is united within me.

            Stand with Star Trek: The Animated Series content for STO! #TASforSTO
          • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,864 Arc User
            > @starkaos said:
            > (Quote)
            >
            > The "n.a.z.is won" is only a small portion of the interest behind alternate histories. It is interesting to see how our reality might change due to some significant historical event being altered like what if the cold war never happened or the other presidential candidate was elected. Which is why I would like to see a Sliders reboot.
            >
            > "N.a.z.is won" alternate histories are likely a warning to prevent it from happening again. "Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it."

            I'm a big fan of alternate history stories, I don't need them explained thanks. I stated specifically that I detest this one type of alternate history story. N.a.z.is, or indeed any form of ethnic supremacists, in my opinion, should never be anything but a villain to be destroyed, and never should they be shown to win.

            There is also no chance at all that anyone in hollywood ever made such a story as a "warning", studios make stuff to make money, nothing else, they have no nobility of purpose.
            There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

            One man's theology is another man's belly laugh.

            You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.

            Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events.

            Robert Heinlein
          • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,008 Arc User
            azrael605 wrote: »
            I'm a big fan of alternate history stories, I don't need them explained thanks. I stated specifically that I detest this one type of alternate history story. N.a.z.is, or indeed any form of ethnic supremacists, in my opinion, should never be anything but a villain to be destroyed, and never should they be shown to win.

            There is also no chance at all that anyone in hollywood ever made such a story as a "warning", studios make stuff to make money, nothing else, they have no nobility of purpose.

            Just showing n.a.z.is as villains to be destroyed and not why the should be destroyed doesn't provide the necessary motivation. Stories that show the n.a.z.is won provides adequate reason why they should be destroyed and never get the chance to win.

            Not talking about Hollywood, but the author of The Man in the High Castle novel and other writers that create "n.a.z.is won" alternate history novels.
          • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 937 Arc User
            azrael605 wrote: »
            > @starkaos said:
            > (Quote)
            >
            > The "n.a.z.is won" is only a small portion of the interest behind alternate histories. It is interesting to see how our reality might change due to some significant historical event being altered like what if the cold war never happened or the other presidential candidate was elected. Which is why I would like to see a Sliders reboot.
            >
            > "N.a.z.is won" alternate histories are likely a warning to prevent it from happening again. "Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it."

            I'm a big fan of alternate history stories, I don't need them explained thanks. I stated specifically that I detest this one type of alternate history story. N.a.z.is, or indeed any form of ethnic supremacists, in my opinion, should never be anything but a villain to be destroyed, and never should they be shown to win.

            There is also no chance at all that anyone in hollywood ever made such a story as a "warning", studios make stuff to make money, nothing else, they have no nobility of purpose.

            I take it you hate Star Wars then? It had a lot of WWII elements to it, not the least of which were the villain's who were heavily dependent on Hitler's bunch, with all of the bigotry and whatnot of the real-world party that the Empire was an allegory of. From the descriptions of "The Man in the High Castle" (I have not seen it yet) the overall situation is the same as the one in the original trilogy though it seems to focus less on the street-level underground resistance and more on the high-level government backbiting and bickering (though the trailers could be misleading like they often are for other shows).

            Also, "Hollywood" may be jaded, short sighted, and totally focused on thrills (though the reality is more complex than that stereotype), but the TV series in question is based on a novel by Phillip K. TRIBBLE and he is very well known for writing warning stories precisely to remind people of the consequences that old saying refers to, along with exploring other aspects of philosophy.
          • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,008 Arc User
            azrael605 wrote: »
            > starkaos said:
            > (Quote)
            >
            > The "n.a.z.is won" is only a small portion of the interest behind alternate histories. It is interesting to see how our reality might change due to some significant historical event being altered like what if the cold war never happened or the other presidential candidate was elected. Which is why I would like to see a Sliders reboot.
            >
            > "N.a.z.is won" alternate histories are likely a warning to prevent it from happening again. "Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it."

            I'm a big fan of alternate history stories, I don't need them explained thanks. I stated specifically that I detest this one type of alternate history story. N.a.z.is, or indeed any form of ethnic supremacists, in my opinion, should never be anything but a villain to be destroyed, and never should they be shown to win.

            There is also no chance at all that anyone in hollywood ever made such a story as a "warning", studios make stuff to make money, nothing else, they have no nobility of purpose.

            I take it you hate Star Wars then? It had a lot of WWII elements to it, not the least of which were the villain's who were heavily dependent on Hitler's bunch, with all of the bigotry and whatnot of the real-world party that the Empire was an allegory of. From the descriptions of "The Man in the High Castle" (I have not seen it yet) the overall situation is the same as the one in the original trilogy though it seems to focus less on the street-level underground resistance and more on the high-level government backbiting and bickering (though the trailers could be misleading like they often are for other shows).

            Also, "Hollywood" may be jaded, short sighted, and totally focused on thrills (though the reality is more complex than that stereotype), but the TV series in question is based on a novel by Phillip K. TRIBBLE and he is very well known for writing warning stories precisely to remind people of the consequences that old saying refers to, along with exploring other aspects of philosophy.

            According to wikipedia, the author "said that he had "started several times to write a sequel", but progressed little, because he was too disturbed by his original research for The Man in the High Castle and could not mentally bear 'to go back and read about TRIBBLE again'. He suggested that the sequel would be a collaboration with another author."

            It definitely sounds like a novel written as a warning rather than to make some money.
          • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 7,715 Arc User
            azrael605 wrote: »
            I'm a big fan of alternate history stories, I don't need them explained thanks. I stated specifically that I detest this one type of alternate history story. N.a.z.is, or indeed any form of ethnic supremacists, in my opinion, should never be anything but a villain to be destroyed, and never should they be shown to win.

            There is also no chance at all that anyone in hollywood ever made such a story as a "warning", studios make stuff to make money, nothing else, they have no nobility of purpose.

            You realize that this series is based on a BOOK right? A book written by an author who has produced many books that are very much warnings about various things.
          • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,834 Arc User
            edited November 19
            Honestly, it's a Naziwank fantasy. The more you read in detail about historical [email protected] Germany, the more you'll be amazed that they even got as far as they did.

            They beat France due mainly to bad generalship on the part of the Allies. Among other things, a French military exercise in the late '30s actually predicted an invasion through Belgium, and the French brass were so horrified the Maginot Line was a paper tiger that they stamped the whole thing classified.

            But Germany never had any chance whatsoever of forcing the UK to anything better than a peace-in-place, especially not with Churchill in charge: the logistics of a cross-Channel invasion were incredibly challenging for the Allies in '44, and that was with near-complete naval and air superiority. For the Germans even in '40 and '41, the invasion of Norway to secure the shipping route for Swedish iron cost the Kriegsmarine significantly: even with Bismarck and Tirpitz entering service (which were big and dangerous, but still pretty much enlarged heavy cruisers rather than modern battleships), they basically had no feasible way to clear the seas of the Royal Navy, nor did they have any landing craft to take advantage in the unlikely scenario they managed to. (Oh, and the occupation of Norway took 300,000 German troops out of circulation permanently, so they have that working against them, too.)

            The idea of invading the United States is frankly a bad joke. You think invading across the English Channel is hard, try the same operation across 7,600 km of ocean, with a titanically pissed-off, highly industrialized, and mostly self-sufficient megacountry with half-again as many residents as Germany on the other side. Plus, the US had the second-biggest blue water navy in the world at the time after the Brits, although split between two oceans and with its ships limited in size by the Panama Canal. It's not for nothing that Admiral Yamamoto told the Japanese government that attacking the US was suicide.

            On top of that, Hitler's regime was already on the edge of bankruptcy after France: part of the reason they invaded the USSR was to avoid having to pay the Soviets -- hated communists -- back for loans of money and materiel (especially oil from the Caucasus). And the Holocaust actually backfired on them: the SS were given logistical priority over actual military operations even late in the war. And I haven't even gotten to the inter-departmental rivalries in the Third Reich that make the Pentagon and Congress look disciplined, Hitler constantly diverting R&D resources to his Wunderwaffen (e.g. demanding the Me-262 be made a fighter-bomber instead of an interceptor, delaying its introduction by over two years), or the fact that the head of the Abwehr (military intelligence) was a hardcore antifascist who spent most of the war sabotaging his own government until he was finally caught and shot.
            "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
            — Sabaton, "Great War"
            VZ9ASdg.png

            Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
          • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 7,715 Arc User
            starswordc wrote: »
            Honestly, it's a Naziwank fantasy. The more you read in detail about historical [email protected] Germany, the more you'll be amazed that they even got as far as they did.

            They beat France due mainly to bad generalship on the part of the Allies. Among other things, a French military exercise in the late '30s actually predicted an invasion through Belgium, and the French brass were so horrified the Maginot Line was a paper tiger that they stamped the whole thing classified.

            But Germany never had any chance whatsoever of forcing the UK to anything better than a peace-in-place, especially not with Churchill in charge: the logistics of a cross-Channel invasion were incredibly challenging for the Allies in '44, and that was with near-complete naval and air superiority. For the Germans even in '40 and '41, the invasion of Norway to secure the shipping route for Swedish iron cost the Kriegsmarine significantly: even with Bismarck and Tirpitz entering service (which were big and dangerous, but still pretty much enlarged heavy cruisers rather than modern battleships), they basically had no feasible way to clear the seas of the Royal Navy, nor did they have any landing craft to take advantage in the unlikely scenario they managed to. (Oh, and the occupation of Norway took 300,000 German troops out of circulation permanently, so they have that working against them, too.)

            The idea of invading the United States is frankly a bad joke. You think invading across the English Channel is hard, try the same operation across 7,600 km of ocean, with a titanically pissed-off, highly industrialized, and mostly self-sufficient megacountry with half-again as many residents as Germany on the other side. Plus, the US had the second-biggest blue water navy in the world at the time after the Brits, although split between two oceans and with its ships limited in size by the Panama Canal. It's not for nothing that Admiral Yamamoto told the Japanese government that attacking the US was suicide.

            On top of that, Hitler's regime was already on the edge of bankruptcy after France: part of the reason they invaded the USSR was to avoid having to pay the Soviets -- hated communists -- back for loans of money and materiel (especially oil from the Caucasus). And the Holocaust actually backfired on them: the SS were given logistical priority over actual military operations even late in the war. And I haven't even gotten to the inter-departmental rivalries in the Third Reich that make the Pentagon and Congress look disciplined, Hitler constantly diverting R&D resources to his Wunderwaffen (e.g. demanding the Me-262 be made a fighter-bomber instead of an interceptor, delaying its introduction by over two years), or the fact that the head of the Abwehr (military intelligence) was a hardcore antifascist who spent most of the war sabotaging his own government until he was finally caught and shot.

            So...a couple of premise about the alt history of the book. The US was not a super mega industrialized nation in that world. FDR died. The US never recovered from the great depression and kind of devolved. So...no great navy. No ability to churn out planes and tanks. Hitler of that world had access to the history of our world and was able to avoid pretty much all the mistake that our Hitler made. There are some problems not addressed...like how the alt world Germany got resources it needed to do what they did...but He did do a lot to explain why it worked
          • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 34,559 Arc User
            edited November 19
            So it's akin to the Enterprise Ep where the Na'kuhl give the Reich future alien tech. It's a sci-fi world where multiple things don't match reality.
            -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
            My character Tsin'xing
            Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
          • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,834 Arc User
            edited November 19
            coldnapalm wrote: »
            starswordc wrote: »
            Honestly, it's a Naziwank fantasy. The more you read in detail about historical [email protected] Germany, the more you'll be amazed that they even got as far as they did.

            They beat France due mainly to bad generalship on the part of the Allies. Among other things, a French military exercise in the late '30s actually predicted an invasion through Belgium, and the French brass were so horrified the Maginot Line was a paper tiger that they stamped the whole thing classified.

            But Germany never had any chance whatsoever of forcing the UK to anything better than a peace-in-place, especially not with Churchill in charge: the logistics of a cross-Channel invasion were incredibly challenging for the Allies in '44, and that was with near-complete naval and air superiority. For the Germans even in '40 and '41, the invasion of Norway to secure the shipping route for Swedish iron cost the Kriegsmarine significantly: even with Bismarck and Tirpitz entering service (which were big and dangerous, but still pretty much enlarged heavy cruisers rather than modern battleships), they basically had no feasible way to clear the seas of the Royal Navy, nor did they have any landing craft to take advantage in the unlikely scenario they managed to. (Oh, and the occupation of Norway took 300,000 German troops out of circulation permanently, so they have that working against them, too.)

            The idea of invading the United States is frankly a bad joke. You think invading across the English Channel is hard, try the same operation across 7,600 km of ocean, with a titanically pissed-off, highly industrialized, and mostly self-sufficient megacountry with half-again as many residents as Germany on the other side. Plus, the US had the second-biggest blue water navy in the world at the time after the Brits, although split between two oceans and with its ships limited in size by the Panama Canal. It's not for nothing that Admiral Yamamoto told the Japanese government that attacking the US was suicide.

            On top of that, Hitler's regime was already on the edge of bankruptcy after France: part of the reason they invaded the USSR was to avoid having to pay the Soviets -- hated communists -- back for loans of money and materiel (especially oil from the Caucasus). And the Holocaust actually backfired on them: the SS were given logistical priority over actual military operations even late in the war. And I haven't even gotten to the inter-departmental rivalries in the Third Reich that make the Pentagon and Congress look disciplined, Hitler constantly diverting R&D resources to his Wunderwaffen (e.g. demanding the Me-262 be made a fighter-bomber instead of an interceptor, delaying its introduction by over two years), or the fact that the head of the Abwehr (military intelligence) was a hardcore antifascist who spent most of the war sabotaging his own government until he was finally caught and shot.

            So...a couple of premise about the alt history of the book. The US was not a super mega industrialized nation in that world. FDR died. The US never recovered from the great depression and kind of devolved. So...no great navy. No ability to churn out planes and tanks. Hitler of that world had access to the history of our world and was able to avoid pretty much all the mistake that our Hitler made. There are some problems not addressed...like how the alt world Germany got resources it needed to do what they did...but He did do a lot to explain why it worked

            No matter how much you think you need to do to justify Germany winning long-term, you need to do more.

            There's another thing I didn't even mention: state-sponsored racism. Believe it or not, when German troops first entered the western frontier of the USSR, they were greeted as liberators by the populace. They hated Stalin that much. A more adroit hand on the stick could have turned that into a massive advantage, but no! Mein Kampf demanded that half of Asia be exterminated to make room for German settlers, so the army and SS started machine-gunning civilians left and right. And thus Josef Stalin managed to steal the moral high ground. Ditto the nuclear program: the Germans had one, but as it happened a lot of their best physicists were Jewish and got out while the getting was good, including Albert Einstein himself. Oh, and because they were Jewish, the [email protected] derided their work as "Jewish physics" and substituted their own pseudoscience derived from Germanic mythology.

            And no matter that you have FDR die early, the fact remains the United States is bloody huge.
            US-Europe-size-comparison.jpg

            The US is far larger than continental Europe and at that time had population of 130 million. Germany had 86 million, and that only after the annexation of Austria and Czechia: Germany proper had less than 70 million people. The US was already highly industrialized and had been for a while: we started building a two-ocean navy under Theodore Roosevelt, using Andrew Carnegie's steel -- and bear in mind, in real life a lot of ships that were used in World War II had actually been built for World War I. Nearly everything we needed to run our war is available inside the continental United States, including oil, something the Germans and the Japanese both had to import.

            And Americans psychologically have this way of rallying around each other and getting elementally enraged when we're attacked from outside.

            The novel was also written in 1962 and used the same erroneous beliefs about the efficacy of the [email protected] regime that Star Trek did in "Patterns of Force". The reality is, the regime was horrendously inefficient, especially with Hitler in charge: British intelligence actually recommended against trying to assassinate Hitler on the grounds that any potential replacement would probably be an improvement.

            So no, it's still Naziwank.
            "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
            — Sabaton, "Great War"
            VZ9ASdg.png

            Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
          • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 7,715 Arc User
            starswordc wrote: »
            coldnapalm wrote: »
            starswordc wrote: »
            Honestly, it's a Naziwank fantasy. The more you read in detail about historical [email protected] Germany, the more you'll be amazed that they even got as far as they did.

            They beat France due mainly to bad generalship on the part of the Allies. Among other things, a French military exercise in the late '30s actually predicted an invasion through Belgium, and the French brass were so horrified the Maginot Line was a paper tiger that they stamped the whole thing classified.

            But Germany never had any chance whatsoever of forcing the UK to anything better than a peace-in-place, especially not with Churchill in charge: the logistics of a cross-Channel invasion were incredibly challenging for the Allies in '44, and that was with near-complete naval and air superiority. For the Germans even in '40 and '41, the invasion of Norway to secure the shipping route for Swedish iron cost the Kriegsmarine significantly: even with Bismarck and Tirpitz entering service (which were big and dangerous, but still pretty much enlarged heavy cruisers rather than modern battleships), they basically had no feasible way to clear the seas of the Royal Navy, nor did they have any landing craft to take advantage in the unlikely scenario they managed to. (Oh, and the occupation of Norway took 300,000 German troops out of circulation permanently, so they have that working against them, too.)

            The idea of invading the United States is frankly a bad joke. You think invading across the English Channel is hard, try the same operation across 7,600 km of ocean, with a titanically pissed-off, highly industrialized, and mostly self-sufficient megacountry with half-again as many residents as Germany on the other side. Plus, the US had the second-biggest blue water navy in the world at the time after the Brits, although split between two oceans and with its ships limited in size by the Panama Canal. It's not for nothing that Admiral Yamamoto told the Japanese government that attacking the US was suicide.

            On top of that, Hitler's regime was already on the edge of bankruptcy after France: part of the reason they invaded the USSR was to avoid having to pay the Soviets -- hated communists -- back for loans of money and materiel (especially oil from the Caucasus). And the Holocaust actually backfired on them: the SS were given logistical priority over actual military operations even late in the war. And I haven't even gotten to the inter-departmental rivalries in the Third Reich that make the Pentagon and Congress look disciplined, Hitler constantly diverting R&D resources to his Wunderwaffen (e.g. demanding the Me-262 be made a fighter-bomber instead of an interceptor, delaying its introduction by over two years), or the fact that the head of the Abwehr (military intelligence) was a hardcore antifascist who spent most of the war sabotaging his own government until he was finally caught and shot.

            So...a couple of premise about the alt history of the book. The US was not a super mega industrialized nation in that world. FDR died. The US never recovered from the great depression and kind of devolved. So...no great navy. No ability to churn out planes and tanks. Hitler of that world had access to the history of our world and was able to avoid pretty much all the mistake that our Hitler made. There are some problems not addressed...like how the alt world Germany got resources it needed to do what they did...but He did do a lot to explain why it worked

            No matter how much you think you need to do to justify Germany winning long-term, you need to do more.

            There's another thing I didn't even mention: state-sponsored racism. Believe it or not, when German troops first entered the western frontier of the USSR, they were greeted as liberators by the populace. They hated Stalin that much. A more adroit hand on the stick could have turned that into a massive advantage, but no! Mein Kampf demanded that half of Asia be exterminated to make room for German settlers, so the army and SS started machine-gunning civilians left and right. And thus Josef Stalin managed to steal the moral high ground. Ditto the nuclear program: the Germans had one, but as it happened a lot of their best physicists were Jewish and got out while the getting was good, including Albert Einstein himself. Oh, and because they were Jewish, the [email protected] derided their work as "Jewish physics" and substituted their own pseudoscience derived from Germanic mythology.

            And no matter that you have FDR die early, the fact remains the United States is bloody huge.
            US-Europe-size-comparison.jpg

            The US is far larger than continental Europe and at that time had population of 130 million. Germany had 86 million, and that only after the annexation of Austria and Czechia: Germany proper had less than 70 million people. The US was already highly industrialized and had been for a while: we started building a two-ocean navy under Theodore Roosevelt, using Andrew Carnegie's steel -- and bear in mind, in real life a lot of ships that were used in World War II had actually been built for World War I. Nearly everything we needed to run our war is available inside the continental United States, including oil, something the Germans and the Japanese both had to import.

            And Americans psychologically have this way of rallying around each other and getting elementally enraged when we're attacked from outside.

            The novel was also written in 1962 and used the same erroneous beliefs about the efficacy of the [email protected] regime that Star Trek did in "Patterns of Force". The reality is, the regime was horrendously inefficient, especially with Hitler in charge: British intelligence actually recommended against trying to assassinate Hitler on the grounds that any potential replacement would probably be an improvement.

            So no, it's still Naziwank.

            Yes...the US was highly industrialized by the time of the great depression starting. However, the shorten time we had of it showed a marked decline in our ability to produce until the great new deal was implemented. I think you maybe trivializing what a prolonged great depression with no relief in sight would have done to the US as a country and the people. Ships we had during WW I would be left in disrepair and would not be serviceable by the time WW II came around. Which also explains why Japan was able to get a foothold as well.

            The alt Hitler did not seem to hold the room to breath policy of our world Hitler. Yes he was all for genocide...but he was smart enough to leave Asia to Japan for the most part. He was also smart enough to employ stealth in the genocide for the most part and did not seem to have gone on the rampage our counterpart did. Alt Himmler on the other hand was more like what our world version of Hitler was.

            You keep using stuff that our world Hitler did was an excuse to why this alt world can't happen. Here is the thing...the alt world Hitler DID NOT DO THOSE THINGS. That is why it is an alt history. The same thing with some of the facts of the world. For example, the US would not have had 130 million people. Extended starvation would have seen to that.

            Now some of the facts that makes this not plausible are things like the over estimation of the effciency of Germany of that era. Or their ability to get the resources they needed so take over Europe as they did. Without Germany taking over Russia first for the oil supply, there is no way they could have taken over much more than the smaller nations. France like you said was more to do with them being stupid and not so much Germany being good. In the alt history, since they did not somehow gain that oil supply, and it isn't shown that the other European countries were basically France too, it doesn't make sense that it worked out as it should. And you are right, the US is HUGE. The alt history however does not have them take over ALL of the US...just half of it with Japan controlling a quarter with another quarter being a neutral zone. However the implausible part pops in where for this to happen, Japan and Germany has to have coordinated the efforts. Even if alt Hitler was able to see the future and try to make this happen, the Japanese seeing it their way before the bomb drops would be basically nil and they would have needed coordination before that event for the alt history to have happened as in the book. Yes, the author has a dated understanding of what happened back then so there are some issues (like Germany being better than it was or that the Axis were somehow all cooperative)...but they aren't as massive as you make them out to be either. I mean it's still pretty big based on what we know now...but remember, alt Hitler did not do what our version did. You can't say it can't happen based on what our version did.
          • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 33,354 Arc User
            edited November 19
            germany never truly invaded the united states in the high castle 'verse - they didn't need to; what was left of the government surrendered after germany dropped a heisenberg device (see: atomic bomb) on the white house, so german forces just waltzed right on in the same way american forces did after committing THEIR war crimes against hiroshima and nagasaki - though admittedly, their occupation didn't solidify until 2 years later​​
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          • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 937 Arc User
            Also, with alt-US technology lagging behind real-US tech because of the effect of the unending depression the Allies may never have been able to reach and destroy Polesti and the other precision oil-campaign bomber attacks, so their tanks and other equipment may not have run out of the fuel necessary to maximize their effectiveness the way they did in the real world.

            Also, the British had to stick to night bombing because of their shortage of aircraft, and the US may not have been able to field enough bombers and fighters to do the precision daylight bombing which would be a massive drop in Allied effectiveness.

            Having no market to sell things and warehouses filling up with those unsellable goods would have devastated US manufacturing well before the war even started.
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