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So... apparently I was afk.

Went into the borg red alert. Before I could reach the two ships nearest me, some 30 km away, they were destroyed. I started to turn toward the next closest group, some 50km away, and apparently they and three other groups were destroyed (elapsed time, perhaps 8 seconds).

Boss ship cutscene as it warps in. One guy was nearby it (I assume), by the time I turned my camera to face it, it was destroyed. Elapsed time 2 seconds. Total red alert, 10 seconds. I never had a chance to fire a shot.

Now I'm sitting around with an afk penalty, because the devs have so thoroughly broken the dps in the game. It's seriously out of control, and is ruining the game experience of many players.

I say this, knowing this is old news... but I feel it needs to be mentioned again in the hope (probably a vain hope) that they may one day address the problem.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User

    Boss ship cutscene as it warps in. One guy was nearby it (I assume), by the time I turned my camera to face it, it was destroyed. Elapsed time 2 seconds. Total red alert, 10 seconds. I never had a chance to fire a shot.

    Sorry, but no.

    Even a team of elite DPS'ers would not destroy the Unimatrix in 2 seconds much less a single ship. It's absolutely not possible.

    10 second total red alert? I get it.. you're unhappy, but no way.

    Look, I am sorry you got hit with an AFK, but you're definitely blowing the problem out of proportion to support your feelings on the issue.

    I admit, I don't get this issue, I never have.. I still don't understand how someone can get an AFK in a Borg Red Alert. I have had to go AFK before, came back just in time to fire one volley at the Unimatrix and still got credit. I am not saying it doesn't happen, it obviously does.. but the problem isn't DPS. What you posted is simply not possible, you know I like you dude.. but that didn't happen. Sorry.
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    I have to agree with Sea, Marik. If you brought half the build he and the others set up for you in ur ship build thread I can’t see how an AFK penalty is possible in a borg RA. Granted, there are long flight paths and if others take away your targets it gets difficult but now you know what awaits you and you can be better prepared next time. Just see to it that you don’t fly after the others and get a spawn of your own. You are surely strong enough to tend to one alone by now. :)
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User

    Boss ship cutscene as it warps in. One guy was nearby it (I assume), by the time I turned my camera to face it, it was destroyed. Elapsed time 2 seconds. Total red alert, 10 seconds. I never had a chance to fire a shot.

    Sorry, but no.

    Even a team of elite DPS'ers would not destroy the Unimatrix in 2 seconds much less a single ship. It's absolutely not possible.


    Maybe literally 2 seconds is a bit rich, but the Boss ship usually dies pretty fast (in PUGs even). Like 10 secs or so.

    LOL. I just recall a time when that Diamond ship (or whatever it's called) was considered extremely tough to take down, and you actually had to watch those deadly torps.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    Yes, the trick is to go after your own group when the alert starts.

    Most players tend to go after the 2 cubes that spawn straight in front of you, I advise you either turn around and attack the group behind the spawn point, or go after one of the groups on the side. Usually, on your left, there is a group with 1 cube and some spheres, and beyond and slightly above them are a group of 2 cubes. Go after one of them right when the event starts.. it shouldn't take more then a couple seconds in combat to make sure you get credit.

    I have done literally thousands of Red Alerts over the years, I have never seen the Unimatrix phase start in 8 seconds.. ever. I honestly don't believe it's possible, it takes at least 2-4 seconds just to get to a group of enemies. I want to be clear, I am not saying you're lying, I just think your times are off by a fair amount.

    The best advice I can give is that you should chalk it up as an unfortunate freak occurrence and simply press on. In the future, just pick a group near the start that no one else seems to be going after and go after them on your own. That should prevent you from incurring any future penalties.

    Best of luck to you.
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    I have done literally thousands of Red Alerts over the years, I have never seen the Unimatrix phase start in 8 seconds.. ever. I honestly don't believe it's possible, it takes at least 2-4 seconds just to get to a group of enemies. I want to be clear, I am not saying you're lying, I just think your times are off by a fair amount.


    I've seen it happen: you warp in, and almost immediately boss fight starts. This is probably due to some bug also befalling other queues at times, where you essentially fill in the spot of others who have left an ongoing queue or something. Rather annoying, but it does happen.
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  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    Ok, let's do the calculations. First, let's assume the encounter took 5 seconds. The pickle in Borg RA has 2.715m HP. That means, your team would need to have 543k total DPS, or 136k single target DPS per person (4 people, cause Marik didn't get there).

    So yes, such a short encounter is possible, if you're seriously unlucky and get 4 extremely good players who all head towards different groups at the beginning and save their alpha strikes for the pickle. However, I can't imagine why ppl of that calibre would even queue for Borg RA, but can't control others I guess. But yeah, don't let yourself too down and I can comfort you that chances of such a situation happening again are extremely unlikely.

    Oh, and for the encounter to last 2 seconds, you'd need to have 340k single target DPS per person. I'm not sure if there's even 1, let alone 4 players in the game who are capable of that (and no, CCA parses are not equivalent to one's single target DPS).
  • avoozuulavoozuul Member Posts: 3,196 Arc User
    Maybe you got beamed in a bit late and it lagged.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    I maintain what I said initially, the DPS in the game is way out of control and needs reining in some.

    And I respectfully maintain my stance that you are incorrect.

    Nerfing things is never a good road to parity. All it does is upset the player base and have an overall negative effect on the game as a whole. With respect, one AFK penalty in a Red Alert that is, at best, a freak occurrence is not an acceptable reason to start calling for game wide alterations, especially in the form of nerfs. If something or someone is under performing then steps can be taken to bring them up to the median. Placing reductions or restrictions on the top end of the curve does not create parity among average or under performing players.

    The concept that peoples DPS is somehow ruining the game for you is simply incorrect. If the problem is prevalent in a large group of players then something as simple as adding a 15 second countdown to make sure everyone gets into the map before the destruction starts could be an effective answer. There is simply no need to jump immediately to the highest extreme.

    Simply put, your fun is not more or less important then someone else fun. If chasing DPS is fun for a player, they have just as much right to that as you do to not pursue it. If you find yourself in a position where you cannot complete certain content for whatever reason then your options are to adapt to that content or find other content that you enjoy. Trying to force others into your specific mold is never going to be the correct answer.
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    I maintain what I said initially, the DPS in the game is way out of control and needs reining in some.

    I can’t explain it better than Sea already did but would like to highlight that you make your judgment based on observation on a normal difficulty setting. Play FEZ or CPE or TFE. Bring anything but the strongest DPS centric builds and it will feel like that you are shooting blank ammunition for all we can get now. To ever bring those maps into a reasonable time effort ratio where one can just relaxed pug it I’m afraid we still need further iterations of power creep and we will surely get those in time.

    So better stay tuned Marik cuz there is even more DPS coming up. >:)

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  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,698 Community Moderator
    Normally I would close a thread like this as they serve no purpose and generally don't end well. However since a few others in here say they have been working with you I'm going to give it some leeway for the time being. If help can be given to prevent AFK penalties in the future I would rather go that route.

    Unless there is some technical reason that was at fault, I can still count on my one hand how many times I've heard of an AFK penalty being applied in a Borg Red Alert. I have to ask similarly to the others in here, where did you go when the mission first started? What group did you try to attack? Even if you're halfway across the map you should still have enough time to get back to the pickle ship and fire off at least one shot. Theoretically it's possible the other 4 people were doing enough damage to kill something fast enough to keep you from getting in a single shot. To do it however would require 2 large damage bursts in a short timeframe. 1 damage burst is easy enough to pull off, but 2 in that short of time and to the magnitude required for what you're telling us is a stretch. In fact I would go as far as to say I know of less than 20 people in game who could even remotely pull something like that off, especially without one of them being in a nanny ship.

    With that in mind we have to eliminate the obvious first and look at your build and your piloting in said run. If it's something technical on the end of the server I can turn in a bug report. I would ask first like I did above, where did you go when the mission started and what group did you try to attack first? I would then ask, what does your build look like currently? Your setup and tactics/piloting are the 2 biggest factors in determining how well you will do.
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  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    It is sad people don't seem to take into consideration other people in the team any more.

    Or is everyone unaware of what is going on around them? You know that is part of playing in a team...you are only as good as the worst player, and you don't leave team mates behind.

    The DPS guys have their chat room to make DPS teams, why not make one to avoid getting teamed with them? Yeah, casual players sequester yourselves from the Folks Likely To AFK You...you must consider your own requirement, after all.

    Unfortunate, this sounds even more sad.

    Really, how good are you if you are not seeing what is going on around you any better than a player like me? Quit leaving team mates behind.
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  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,698 Community Moderator
    Well... my build strikes me as irrelevant if I'm not able to get to where the combat is happening before the enemy is destroyed. I expect that might happen from time to time, but I wouldn't expect it to happen in a matter of a couple of seconds, and especially not against a foe that is intended as an exceptionally powerful, supposedly difficult foe, such as the Unimatrix ship.

    I expect this is going to come down to a difference in design philosophy. I agree that changing anything now might be impossible, for exactly the reasons mentioned. People hate nerfs. The balance needed to not be so borked from the beginning.

    But, as I say, that's not something I expect will be changed. The other point I was making might be more useful:

    How about making the AFK penalty apply only when a mission lasts longer than a set time. For instance, if the mission is over in less than a minute, there's a really good chance many of the players are at risk of being penalized unjustly. A precise time might have to be determined, but I think it would remedy a problem people have complained about frequently.

    That's why I asked where you tried to go when you first zoned in good sir. To slightly paraphrase the old saying, once you eliminate the potentially obvious solutions, whatever left must be the cause. It's possible your build is in order and that you just need to adjust your tactics. However we can't know for certain what kind of help you need, be it game help, if there's a bug I can report, or if there's something technical going on until we know where you're at. None of us would have asked the questions we did if we had no intention of possibly helping you. If we know what's up build wise and tactics wise we can hopefully keep you from getting an AFK penalty again.
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    where2r1 wrote: »
    It is sad people don't seem to take into consideration other people in the team any more.

    Or is everyone unaware of what is going on around them? You know that is part of playing in a team...you are only as good as the worst player, and you don't leave team mates behind.

    The DPS guys have their chat room to make DPS teams, why not make one to avoid getting teamed with them? Yeah, casual players sequester yourselves from the Folks Likely To AFK You...you must consider your own requirement, after all.

    Unfortunate, this sounds even more sad.

    Really, how good are you if you are not seeing what is going on around you any better than a player like me? Quit leaving team mates behind.

    I understand and this is indeed a serious problem. Not only between DPS minded and non DPS minded player who end up playing alongside in pugs but already within the DPS community internally.

    You know what happens when let’s say 5 Diamond or already gold DPSer team-up and play ISA the regular L->R way? As the sum of the critter hit points along the joint flight path is far below the dmg potential of the participants none in team is likely to set any records or even do any good. That’s why it is common that players from high channels often ask for teams in low channels leading to better results for the high level player. Others simply utilize pugs for that.
    Another problem is plain and simple that the availability of players within the DPS community who are willing to run content X is often < 5 so matches can’t be set up internally.

    If I for example want mark type X but can’t get respective stages to open RAs is sadly the only choice left to play for them in a reasonable timeframe.

    While I don’t understand AFK penalties in advanced content at all as even the absurd DPSer could not penalize teammates when they bring at least the minimum requirements there in easy content this could happen much more often as there should be no minimum requirements.

    No Idea how to deal with that as RAs only have an easy mode.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    where2r1 wrote: »
    It is sad people don't seem to take into consideration other people in the team any more.

    Or is everyone unaware of what is going on around them? You know that is part of playing in a team...you are only as good as the worst player, and you don't leave team mates behind.

    The DPS guys have their chat room to make DPS teams, why not make one to avoid getting teamed with them? Yeah, casual players sequester yourselves from the Folks Likely To AFK You...you must consider your own requirement, after all.

    Unfortunate, this sounds even more sad.

    Really, how good are you if you are not seeing what is going on around you any better than a player like me? Quit leaving team mates behind.

    As it currently sits, a player is only required to do 1% of the total damage in order to avoid an AFK penalty, that should be easily possible regardless of team composition. The problem here, and in many cases is that the OP did not have time to even attempt to contribute anything before all targets were destroyed. This happens for one of two reasons:

    1. The player was following other groups and getting into the fight too late. Many players can destroy a Borg Cube in less then 2 seconds, if you're trailing behind that player, by the time you reach the enemy, they're already dead.

    2. The player zoned into the fight already in progress and the enemy has already been defeated before the player can even attempt to play.


    The first scenario is on the player, and a solution has been given for this case. You don't follow others in Red Alerts you go after your own group to make sure you can register your contribution.

    If the second scenario becomes a constant problem then a countdown like the one recently added to the Crystaline Event could be a possible solution.

    For the record though, not everyone leaves people behind. I am nowhere near being one of the highest DPS'ers in the game, but I can easily take out a group of 2 cubes in 1-2 seconds.. often times I can wipe out a group of Borg before the decloak animation is even finished. If I am in a red alert and I have killed 2 groups and I notice the team is at 2/4 (both mine) I will often just cloak and wait for the team to finish the other two groups.

    Some people do try and avoid team mates getting AFK'ed. It's easy to assume that DPS'ers are greedy players trying to hog all the glory, but that isn't always the case. In fact, in my experience.. the DPS group is the most cognizant of their surroundings then any other group of players.
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    You know what happens when let’s say 5 Diamond or already gold DPSer team-up and play ISA the regular L->R way? As the sum of the critter hit points along the joint flight path is far below the dmg potential of the participants none in team is likely to set any records or even do any good. That’s why it is common that players from high channels often ask for teams in low channels leading to better results for the high level player.


    In a bit of a round-about way, you bring up an interesting point about DPS optimum. Typically, you want to team up with players who are better than you, because, as the whole of the queue is done faster, your own DPS shoots up too (as DPS is a measurement of dmg over time). But the rest of the team shouldn't be soo superior to you, that you can't get a shot in, edge-wise.

    Apparently, that works top-down too: the better player (you, in this case) often benefits from having one or two weaker players around, leaving more room for him to take down lotsa HP fast.

    Someone should do the math on that one day. :)
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  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    I've never been hit with an AFK in anything. However, I've noticed in some Borg RAs since the increase in Level to 65, some of these are going down in under a minute, where it is Pickle Time©®™ in just over 30 seconds. The ship icons of the Team are not Simitars but mostly Federation.

    They seem to go off on their own, blast the Cubes in less than 5 seconds and move on. Who knows, they may also have Impulse Engines and movement setups to get them moving to target really fast. In these cases it's not DPS but actually getting to something, anything before they explode.

    Take the advice and pick out a target on your own and blast at it. Even if these knuckleheads get to blast all 4 of 4 before you take your target down, you will be causing damage and will not be to the subject to the penalty. Hopefully you will be able to Full Impulse to the Pickle before it explodes.
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    You know what happens when let’s say 5 Diamond or already gold DPSer team-up and play ISA the regular L->R way? As the sum of the critter hit points along the joint flight path is far below the dmg potential of the participants none in team is likely to set any records or even do any good. That’s why it is common that players from high channels often ask for teams in low channels leading to better results for the high level player.


    In a bit of a round-about way, you bring up an interesting point about DPS optimum. Typically, you want to team up with players who are better than you, because, as the whole of the queue is done faster, your own DPS shoots up too (as DPS is a measurement of dmg over time). But the rest of the team shouldn't be soo superior to you, that you can't get a shot in, edge-wise.

    Apparently, that works top-down too: the better player (you, in this case) often benefits from having one or two weaker players around, leaving more room for him to take down lotsa HP fast.

    Someone should do the math on that one day. :)

    Oh yea that would really be interesting. The ceiling for ISA is simply far too low. :)
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  • nimbullnimbull Member Posts: 1,564 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    On my KDF engie and Romulan Tac I can easily strip out the rear shields of a Borg Pickle Ship rather quickly. My Romulan more so for obvious reasons. That said I'm pretty sure a Borg Pickle Ship can be dropped quick if after someone like me opens up the back door the next guy with high/higher DPS hammers it out of the ball park.

    Considering this game is nothing but DPS and power creep I'm sure someone could experience what the OP had happen to him with the right mix of players.
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  • kiralynkiralyn Member Posts: 1,576 Arc User
    ltminns wrote: »
    They seem to go off on their own, blast the Cubes in less than 5 seconds and move on. Who knows, they may also have Impulse Engines and movement setups to get them moving to target really fast. In these cases it's not DPS but actually getting to something, anything before they explode.

    Yeah, that seems like it would be a big contributor.... someone with a so-so build not having the various speed boosts, and being unable to keep up. (I suppose reaction time & familiarity counts in there, too. Someone who's done it 100 times before automatically points his ship in the right direction and zooms off, while the less decisive player takes a couple seconds - or more, depending on the queue - to get his bearings.)



    (Speaking of AFK - any advice for a "can't move from the spawn point" bug? Had that in CC yesterday. Tried all sorts of things - impulse/full impulse/rocknroll/etc - but I just couldn't move from the start.)
  • nimbullnimbull Member Posts: 1,564 Arc User
    kiralyn wrote: »
    ltminns wrote: »
    They seem to go off on their own, blast the Cubes in less than 5 seconds and move on. Who knows, they may also have Impulse Engines and movement setups to get them moving to target really fast. In these cases it's not DPS but actually getting to something, anything before they explode.

    Yeah, that seems like it would be a big contributor.... someone with a so-so build not having the various speed boosts, and being unable to keep up. (I suppose reaction time & familiarity counts in there, too. Someone who's done it 100 times before automatically points his ship in the right direction and zooms off, while the less decisive player takes a couple seconds - or more, depending on the queue - to get his bearings.)



    (Speaking of AFK - any advice for a "can't move from the spawn point" bug? Had that in CC yesterday. Tried all sorts of things - impulse/full impulse/rocknroll/etc - but I just couldn't move from the start.)

    When that happened to me I managed to fix it after the instance finished by removing my impulse engine/warp core and re-equiping them. Had I done that soon i think I would have been able to participate in the instance it happened in for me. I've not had the bug since but when i do I'm going to actively test that to be sure that was the right work around I used.
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  • postagepaidpostagepaid Member Posts: 2,899 Arc User
    I had that unable to move in one of todays CC runs and it was because the spawn point is so tiny it shoves players about as others warp in. This led to my ship merging with the asteroid thats been placed there unable to go anywhere.

    Thankfully I could use the impulse jump or whatever its called to escape its clutches and it gave me something to do while the screen was filled with that useless & awful static effect.

    Bigger spawn in point would help tons, especially on a map that tries to squeeze ten ships into the space for two. Or even have the two groups spawn at 3 and 9 instead of all at 6. Or maybe just don't put scenery clutter so close to a spawn point.
  • kiralynkiralyn Member Posts: 1,576 Arc User
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    That is a FEATURE.

    Heh. :D


    Thanks for the advice, guys.
  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    You know what happens when let’s say 5 Diamond or already gold DPSer team-up and play ISA the regular L->R way? As the sum of the critter hit points along the joint flight path is far below the dmg potential of the participants none in team is likely to set any records or even do any good. That’s why it is common that players from high channels often ask for teams in low channels leading to better results for the high level player.


    In a bit of a round-about way, you bring up an interesting point about DPS optimum. Typically, you want to team up with players who are better than you, because, as the whole of the queue is done faster, your own DPS shoots up too (as DPS is a measurement of dmg over time). But the rest of the team shouldn't be soo superior to you, that you can't get a shot in, edge-wise.

    Apparently, that works top-down too: the better player (you, in this case) often benefits from having one or two weaker players around, leaving more room for him to take down lotsa HP fast.

    Someone should do the math on that one day. :)

    Oh yea that would really be interesting. The ceiling for ISA is simply far too low. :)

    So, this piqued my interest, but after a convo with Jay, he pretty much confirmed what I had already suspected - it's kinda impossible to do that due to extreme numbers of variables. Moreover, it's not so much about numbers but rather the pace of the run - who reaches which targets when. Obviously, numbers matter, but no 2 players, even with same DPS, act exactly the same way in a run. The difference gets even more nuanced when you take several build types into account (for example, a single target 100k build will affect the overall course of run in a totally different way than an AoE 100k build would).
    jcsww wrote: »
    The simple solution is to cap the maximum DPS a player can output.
    And exactly how would you be able to do that? I'm genuinely curious. Given that you made a suggestion like that, surely you have a deep understanding how DPSing in STO works and thus can offer perfect solutions to HOW exactly maximum DPS will be capped.
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