The woes of Star Trek 4 (or 14 if you prefer) and the Kelvinverse's future.

lordrezeon

I was bouncing around some entertainment vlogs and heard that it has been reported that Chris Pine has walked away from contract negotiations for the 4th installment of the Kelvinverse Star Trek movies. The casting contracts had originally been made as a three movie commitment, so any new movies would require new contracts be made for the entire cast. However the problem comes that Paramount is having major financial troubles and can't afford the huge budgets of the previous three films, so they are unwilling to commit to pay raises.

Assuming they lose Chris Pine (Kirk), would it even be worth making another movie in this continuity? Should they recast Kirk and any other actors that don't want to continue on Paramounts terms? Should they shuffle the entire crew out for the less well known b-team characters that were introduced in the Animated Series and Motion Picture eras?

My head is telling me that recasting would probably lose the interest of the casual audience. However my heart is crying out that the benchwarmers deserve their chance to shine. If we can have Pike in Discovery why couldn't we have Decker in the movies. It would also give them quite a bit of freedom to take the story in new directions, which was allegedly the point of the reboot in the first place.

So what do you guys think should happen? Should they take the reboot series behind the barn and put it out of its misery or should they gamble with recasting?

starswordc

Semi-relevant link: https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2016/07/25/box-office-a-cheaper-star-trek-franchise-can-live-longer-and-be-more-prosperous/

The author essentially argues that, Star Trek not having the level of mainstream appeal that would justify spending nine figures, it would be healthy for the franchise if they could make the films more cheaply (he suggests cutting back on the special effects).

Also, source for OP: http://comicbook.com/startrek/2018/08/10/star-trek-4-chris-pine-chris-hemsworth-exit/

starkaos

It sounds like they will have to change the plot for Star Trek 4. From what I understand, the plot was supposed to be about the Enterprise travelling to the past where Kirk's father has some role. Maybe have Kirk finally meet his dad without his dad realizing that he was talking with his future son. Star Trek 4 could still have time travel since the original Star Trek 4 had time travel, but they would miss out on an extremely emotional scene.

Personally, I think that they should use virtual actors instead of spending millions on one actor. Of course, to avoid legal issues, no actor's or actress' likeness should be used. So Paramount could use Captain Kirk for whatever Star Trek movie they want without having to worry about Chris Pine's schedule or whether he would accept the part due to financial reasons.

Then there is the whole temperament issue of actors. Some big actors are great to work with while others are a complete disaster that require a bathtub of caviar each day or some other nonsense. If virtual actors are used, then the only friction is caused by the programmers.

rattler2

So... go full CGI and hire voice actors?

starkaos

rattler2 wrote: »

So... go full CGI and hire voice actors?

I was thinking going full CG not just CGI for the more important roles. For insignificant roles, it is cheaper to just use some regular actor, but the main roles would use CGI and Speech Synthesis. If a software programs can create singers like Hatsune Miku and create CG characters that look completely human, then there is no need to spend millions of dollars for a single actor or actress. It all depends if it is cheaper to use an actual actor or a computer program to play a certain role.

mustrumridcully0

If that is the final result and Chris Pine is leaving Paramount Star Trek efforts for good, I really don't see how they can salvage the movie or their current movie series.

A "smaller" or "low budget" Star Trek might work in theory, but it seems it would no longer appeal to the same audience (both among Star Trek fans and the wider cinema audience) as the previous 3 movies.

rattler2

starkaos wrote: »

I was thinking going full CG not just CGI for the more important roles. For insignificant roles, it is cheaper to just use some regular actor, but the main roles would use CGI and Speech Synthesis. If a software programs can create singers like Hatsune Miku and create CG characters that look completely human, then there is no need to spend millions of dollars for a single actor or actress. It all depends if it is cheaper to use an actual actor or a computer program to play a certain role.

Would be more natural to have a voice actor though. Just look at the CG Tarkin in Rogue One. Yea the detail was incredible, but you could tell it was CG when compared to Director Krennic. But there was still a real person behind the voice. The guy they got worked hard to get the mannerisms and inflections of Peter Cushing correct to make it even more believeable.

Its a bit easier to blur the lines between CG and Live Actor when the character isn't human. The CG quality in WarCraft was... you'd swear the Orcs and Gryphons were real they were that good. Star Wars did alright starting out with Jar Jar Binks, but for the most part it was still noticable. They did a great job resurrecting Tarkin, but it was still a bit noticable.

I don't think the software is good enough for LARGE SCALE application to just go pure computer to replace actors. Not only that... some of the best scenes in movies... were total improv. Something you can't do with a computer. Best example I can think of off the top of my head of improv work was a scene in Pacific Rim Uprising, where Jake and Amara are sitting in a PPDC prison cell and arguing with each other. In behind the scenes stuff... it was revealed they just made it up as they went.

lordgyor

Midnights Edge believes that they HAVE to make Star Trek 4 to keep the liscience for Star Trek, but even though I'm not an TRIBBLE hater, the franchise would be better off if they got Bad Robot out of it and found someone who could bring fans together like D&D 5e largely did for D&D after the schism during 4e.

Personally I go against the grain, I think they can write a new script without Kirk, and have someone as Captain of the Enterprise, at least temporarily, say Uhara, Spock, or Carol Marcus.

rattler2

Uhura and Carol wouldn't make sense. Spock would as he is second in command. But it wouldn't be the same without Kirk. And if they try to go ahead without Kirk and basically off him like they did Hicks in Alien 3... if you thought the rage we saw when Delta Rising was bad... Dear god would the whole world be burning if they did. You really can't have the TOS crew without Kirk.

alexmakepeace

A skilled writer could give us an effective TOS crew without Kirk (or even an effective Star Trek series without the TOS crew), but skilled writers don't seem to be the way this IP is headed, if indeed it ever was.

And the JJverse is about 10 years old now, so according to Hollywood schedule it's probably about time to reboot it again anyway.

Actually, I'm only sort of joking. I've never felt like the Kelvinverse had a lot of staying power. A reboot might be in the cards. Maybe that'll let them do it better (Beyond was a small but non-negligible step in the right direction), though I kind of doubt they'll take the opportunity.

rattler2

Well... Simon Pegg helped write the story for Beyond, and Justin Lin is a Star Trek fan and wanted to do it justice.

jonsills

rattler2 wrote: »

So... go full CGI and hire voice actors?

I sense a degree of sarcasm here (my detector may be malfunctioning - it's hard to calibrate it in the current sociopolitical environment), but I'm not sure that's such a bad idea. The only real problem with TAS was the quality of the animation, not the idea of animating the show. A modern computer-animated version might not be a bad idea at all; don't mix the CGI with human actors, and you'll avoid the "uncanny valley" issue with Tarkin.

rattler2

Well... from what I know of TAS, it was also a product of its time, and they did animate rather stiff. And then apparently there was the inflatable Enterprise Decoy that could be deployed from the shuttlebay...

But doing a full CG series kinda like Clone Wars, but maybe without so much of a cartoony look might work.

starswordc

lordgyor wrote: »

Midnights Edge believes that they HAVE to make Star Trek 4 to keep the liscience for Star Trek, but even though I'm not an TRIBBLE hater, the franchise would be better off if they got Bad Robot out of it and found someone who could bring fans together like D&D 5e largely did for D&D after the schism during 4e.

Personally I go against the grain, I think they can write a new script without Kirk, and have someone as Captain of the Enterprise, at least temporarily, say Uhara, Spock, or Carol Marcus.

Midnight's Edge is a moron.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOZWH6bKiac

artan42

There's ways the film could work but the problem with TKT is that there's not much draw for Star Trek films in general. The previous ones have at least had the fans of their respective series behind them but as TKT doesn't have a TV series it's relying on making its own audience from fresh.

That might have worked if they'd put out more material than three films in a decade.

They can carry on with, say Spock or Sulu in command and have Kirk either missing or convince Pine to be the McGuffin but with DSC airing currently and talks of making DSC based films I can't see much of a future unless they can tie into DSC by working with CBS to allow for the two series to explore crossover characters.
What's KT Burnham doing as Kronos was devastated by Praxis early so the war never broke out. What was Marcus doing in the Prime Timeline in the hot war? The crew of the Kelvin herself? Their deaths were the impetus for the split in the first place, what differences did their lives make to the Prime Timeline?

If TKT had been more prolific and had have explored more 'whatiffs' they could have really made something and we might have even got DSC on air a few years earlier.

As it stands I don't think it really brought much new life into the franchise (well, it's what drew me in in the first place but YMMV on if that's a good thing or not ) and now we have a regually airing TV series (that is doing well despite the detestably toxic crybabies) I can't really see place for a series that won't likely have a fourth film out (if at all) for another two or so years.​​

lordrezeon

valoreah wrote: »

Can't say I blame either Chris Pine or Chris Hemsworth for wanting more money. Strike while the iron is hot.

To a degree it amazes me how Paramount hasn't learned anything about Star Trek over the years. You really don't need an over-the-top action/VFX extravaganza for it to work. Films 2, 3 and 4 show if you have a good story, you don't need huge VFX.

I think the problem is that with Star Trek 2009 they made way more money than any of the previous films. Beyond slipped down to what the older films generally made, but because of the higher cost of making the movie they weren't really able to profit from it.

That is why they are trying to cut back on the costs of the film, in particular cast salaries. Unfortunately they made a lot of promises to Pine and Hemsworth before the numbers for ST Beyond had come in, so it is now biting them in the butt.

jonsills

Patrick, I'm actually watching the show - not "tolerating it in the background because someone else is watching", which seems to be the position you've staked out - and thus far, I can't disagree more with your assessment of the writing on the show. It's believable, the characters each have identifiable individual voices, and so far the only really stupid tech I've run into is the "breath analysis" biometric lock. Maybe you should try watching it without deciding before even seeing it that you're going to hate it - might find it feels a lot different that way. Just a suggestion.

artan42

jonsills wrote: »

Patrick, I'm actually watching the show - not "tolerating it in the background because someone else is watching", which seems to be the position you've staked out - and thus far, I can't disagree more with your assessment of the writing on the show. It's believable, the characters each have identifiable individual voices, and so far the only really stupid tech I've run into is the "breath analysis" biometric lock. Maybe you should try watching it without deciding before even seeing it that you're going to hate it - might find it feels a lot different that way. Just a suggestion.

A couple of days watching it and you're already a soulless shill for CBS.

We all know DSC lacks the hard sci-fi Star Trek is known for, such as the following.

rattler2 wrote: »

And then apparently there was the inflatable Enterprise Decoy that could be deployed from the shuttlebay...

​​

angrytarg

If anyone of you starts to diss my beloved rubber enterprisey I will get really angry

smokebailey

Make something new and original.

~drops mic~

starswordc

Another viewpoint: https://www.cbr.com/how-star-trek-movies-can-survive-without-chris-pine/

lordrezeon

From what I've heard Paramount isn't doing so hot financially, and can't really afford to keep making high budget movies right now. Which means if they want to crank out a new Trek movie they are going to have to make cuts somewhere in the budget.

Payroll for casting is one of those high dollar items that can really bog down a long running franchise. Its why so many studios will get newcomers and sign them to multi-film deals. Part of the issue for ST4 is that the cast was on a 3-movie contract, so they require new contracts to move forward. The problem is that the cast now has name recognition and is in a much better bargaining position to demand higher pay.

This is an issue that even the old Trek movies ran into, the payroll costs to keep the original series crew coming back were simply getting huge. For example the reason Spock only appeared once in TNG was because Nimoy wanted to much money for any cameo appearances, and only agreed to a lower pay rate as part of the marketing for ST6.

Even the modern Marvel movies are running into this problem with pay for returning actors continually escalating. Sooner or later they are going to do a clean sweep and bring in fresh blood to bring the costs down.