Those are not the definition of Biogenic as used by Trek. The definition of a Biogenic Weapon, as defined by TNG is a weapon which harms 1 or more specific species but not others, such weapons are used for exactly the purpose Sisko used, the clear all members of said species from the planet so that it can be occupied by an unaffected species. Additionally in Starship Mine (also TNG, aka Die Hard in Space) it is established that Trilithiun resin is used to make Biogenic weapons. On top of that whether the attack is lethal or not is irrelevant and "blanket bans" may be impossible in real life (they aren't but whatever) but in Trek there is not one mention anywhere in the episode that introduces the Biogenic Ban in canon of any exceptions. Also markhawkman, your precious Memory Alpha specifically lists Trilithium Resin based weapon used by Sisko in For The Uniform as an example of a Biogenic Weapon.
Trek does not have a definition for "biogenic." It's just another technobabble buzzword, used without regard to it's meaning. If the writers had actually opened a dictionary, they would've known the word they were looking for was "biocide."
Those are not the definition of Biogenic as used by Trek. The definition of a Biogenic Weapon, as defined by TNG is a weapon which harms 1 or more specific species but not others, such weapons are used for exactly the purpose Sisko used, the clear all members of said species from the planet so that it can be occupied by an unaffected species. Additionally in Starship Mine (also TNG, aka Die Hard in Space) it is established that Trilithiun resin is used to make Biogenic weapons. On top of that whether the attack is lethal or not is irrelevant and "blanket bans" may be impossible in real life (they aren't but whatever) but in Trek there is not one mention anywhere in the episode that introduces the Biogenic Ban in canon of any exceptions. Also markhawkman, your precious Memory Alpha specifically lists Trilithium Resin based weapon used by Sisko in For The Uniform as an example of a Biogenic Weapon.
Trek does not have a definition for "biogenic." It's just another technobabble buzzword, used without regard to it's meaning. If the writers had actually opened a dictionary, they would've known the word they were looking for was "biocide."
Biogenic weapons, or "bioweapons", were a classification of weapon that caused little or no damage to starships or infrastructure, but instead were designed to biogenically interfere with lifeforms, most commonly to attack people. This category included genetically-engineered viruses, poisonous chemical compounds, and other similar materials. Examples of biogenic weapons included cobalt diselenide, which was deadly to Cardassians, and trilithium resin, which was deadly to Humans. (DS9: "For the Uniform")
Bio-mimetic gel could be used to make biogenic weapons when combined with retroviral vaccines. (DS9: "In the Pale Moonlight"; TNG: "Preemptive Strike")
Those are not the definition of Biogenic as used by Trek. The definition of a Biogenic Weapon, as defined by TNG is a weapon which harms 1 or more specific species but not others, such weapons are used for exactly the purpose Sisko used, the clear all members of said species from the planet so that it can be occupied by an unaffected species. Additionally in Starship Mine (also TNG, aka Die Hard in Space) it is established that Trilithiun resin is used to make Biogenic weapons. On top of that whether the attack is lethal or not is irrelevant and "blanket bans" may be impossible in real life (they aren't but whatever) but in Trek there is not one mention anywhere in the episode that introduces the Biogenic Ban in canon of any exceptions. Also markhawkman, your precious Memory Alpha specifically lists Trilithium Resin based weapon used by Sisko in For The Uniform as an example of a Biogenic Weapon.
Trek does not have a definition for "biogenic." It's just another technobabble buzzword, used without regard to it's meaning. If the writers had actually opened a dictionary, they would've known the word they were looking for was "biocide."
Biogenic weapons, or "bioweapons", were a classification of weapon that caused little or no damage to starships or infrastructure, but instead were designed to biogenically interfere with lifeforms, most commonly to attack people. This category included genetically-engineered viruses, poisonous chemical compounds, and other similar materials. Examples of biogenic weapons included cobalt diselenide, which was deadly to Cardassians, and trilithium resin, which was deadly to Humans. (DS9: "For the Uniform")
Bio-mimetic gel could be used to make biogenic weapons when combined with retroviral vaccines. (DS9: "In the Pale Moonlight"; TNG: "Preemptive Strike")
You were saying?
That's a ridiculously broad categorization, not a proper definition. The term is used often, but never properly defined. Which yeah, makes it a "technobabble buzzword".
Those are not the definition of Biogenic as used by Trek. The definition of a Biogenic Weapon, as defined by TNG is a weapon which harms 1 or more specific species but not others, such weapons are used for exactly the purpose Sisko used, the clear all members of said species from the planet so that it can be occupied by an unaffected species. Additionally in Starship Mine (also TNG, aka Die Hard in Space) it is established that Trilithiun resin is used to make Biogenic weapons. On top of that whether the attack is lethal or not is irrelevant and "blanket bans" may be impossible in real life (they aren't but whatever) but in Trek there is not one mention anywhere in the episode that introduces the Biogenic Ban in canon of any exceptions. Also markhawkman, your precious Memory Alpha specifically lists Trilithium Resin based weapon used by Sisko in For The Uniform as an example of a Biogenic Weapon.
Trek does not have a definition for "biogenic." It's just another technobabble buzzword, used without regard to it's meaning. If the writers had actually opened a dictionary, they would've known the word they were looking for was "biocide."
Biogenic weapons, or "bioweapons", were a classification of weapon that caused little or no damage to starships or infrastructure, but instead were designed to biogenically interfere with lifeforms, most commonly to attack people. This category included genetically-engineered viruses, poisonous chemical compounds, and other similar materials. Examples of biogenic weapons included cobalt diselenide, which was deadly to Cardassians, and trilithium resin, which was deadly to Humans. (DS9: "For the Uniform")
Bio-mimetic gel could be used to make biogenic weapons when combined with retroviral vaccines. (DS9: "In the Pale Moonlight"; TNG: "Preemptive Strike")
You were saying?
That's a ridiculously broad categorization, not a proper definition. The term is used often, but never properly defined. Which yeah, makes it a "technobabble buzzword".
So yeah, it's a nonsense word that's used to sound fancy.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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> @markhawkman said:
> trennan wrote: »
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> warpangel wrote: »
>
> azrael605 wrote: »
>
> Those are not the definition of Biogenic as used by Trek. The definition of a Biogenic Weapon, as defined by TNG is a weapon which harms 1 or more specific species but not others, such weapons are used for exactly the purpose Sisko used, the clear all members of said species from the planet so that it can be occupied by an unaffected species. Additionally in Starship Mine (also TNG, aka Die Hard in Space) it is established that Trilithiun resin is used to make Biogenic weapons. On top of that whether the attack is lethal or not is irrelevant and "blanket bans" may be impossible in real life (they aren't but whatever) but in Trek there is not one mention anywhere in the episode that introduces the Biogenic Ban in canon of any exceptions. Also markhawkman, your precious Memory Alpha specifically lists Trilithium Resin based weapon used by Sisko in For The Uniform as an example of a Biogenic Weapon.
>
>
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> Trek does not have a definition for "biogenic." It's just another technobabble buzzword, used without regard to it's meaning. If the writers had actually opened a dictionary, they would've known the word they were looking for was "biocide."
>
>
>
> http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Biogenic_weapon
>
> Biogenic weapons, or "bioweapons", were a classification of weapon that caused little or no damage to starships or infrastructure, but instead were designed to biogenically interfere with lifeforms, most commonly to attack people. This category included genetically-engineered viruses, poisonous chemical compounds, and other similar materials. Examples of biogenic weapons included cobalt diselenide, which was deadly to Cardassians, and trilithium resin, which was deadly to Humans. (DS9: "For the Uniform")
>
> Bio-mimetic gel could be used to make biogenic weapons when combined with retroviral vaccines. (DS9: "In the Pale Moonlight"; TNG: "Preemptive Strike")
>
> You were saying?
>
>
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> That's a ridiculously broad categorization, not a proper definition. The term is used often, but never properly defined. Which yeah, makes it a "technobabble buzzword".
Yeah just as much as Isolitic and many others are. It does not change the fact that this is how its defined both in the show and on Memory Alpha which you champion so hard anytime artan says anything about it. By the way, I agree with you about MA, and if some future Trek production wants to, in mentioning the past, talk about how Ben Sisko had to stand a special tribunal before legal authorities from all powers signatory to the Biogenic Weapons Ban to explain his actions and win acquittal then I will cheer and shut up about this forever.
Exactly!
Though I can also understand the confusion on this. Even with current standards it fall within two of the three attacks. Which for the U.S. Army are chemical, biologial, and nuclear. This type of thing would fall in the chemical and biological areas. As it both.
Having spent time in the Army, and training to know how to handle this kind of thing. I can say both Eddington's and Sisko use of them are abysmal. But, Eddington is the better man here. He gave himself up, along with the weapons, to prevent Sicko from further using his. Sisko, however, ran off to live in the wormhole. Instead of facing the charges for it. Since he didn't bother with getting Starfleet's approval before hand. Oh wait... that makes him a terrorist as well. But, this is beside the point.
Had Sisko stood trial and been acquitted, I wouldn't even mention it.
Though I can also understand the confusion on this. Even with current standards it fall within two of the three attacks. Which for the U.S. Army are chemical, biologial, and nuclear. This type of thing would fall in the chemical and biological areas. As it both.
Having spent time in the Army, and training to know how to handle this kind of thing. I can say both Eddington's and Sisko use of them are abysmal. But, Eddington is the better man here. He gave himself up, along with the weapons, to prevent Sicko from further using his. Sisko, however, ran off to live in the wormhole. Instead of facing the charges for it. Since he didn't bother with getting Starfleet's approval before hand. Oh wait... that makes him a terrorist as well. But, this is beside the point.
Had Sisko stood trial and been acquitted, I wouldn't even mention it.
Trilithium Resin would not be considered a chemical weapon IRL. It's no where near as deadly as stuff like VX which can kill you in less than 5 minutes. Trilithium Resin takes HOURS of constant exposure much like CS gas(which is used by police as a riot control agent). Thus Sisko's superiors decided there was no need for a trial. Honestly calling it a "biogenic" weapon was an unusual application of "Sci-fi writers have no sense of scale".
The virus the Vaadwaur cooked up to kill the Kobali though? Took longer than 5 minutes to kill, but it was a contagious plague and 5 minutes of exposure was enough to doom you unless you received an anti-viral treatment specifically targeted to it. AND it was tailored to only kill the Kobali and NOT Vaadwaur or any other race.
Though I can also understand the confusion on this. Even with current standards it fall within two of the three attacks. Which for the U.S. Army are chemical, biologial, and nuclear. This type of thing would fall in the chemical and biological areas. As it both.
Having spent time in the Army, and training to know how to handle this kind of thing. I can say both Eddington's and Sisko use of them are abysmal. But, Eddington is the better man here. He gave himself up, along with the weapons, to prevent Sicko from further using his. Sisko, however, ran off to live in the wormhole. Instead of facing the charges for it. Since he didn't bother with getting Starfleet's approval before hand. Oh wait... that makes him a terrorist as well. But, this is beside the point.
Had Sisko stood trial and been acquitted, I wouldn't even mention it.
Trilithium Resin would not be considered a chemical weapon IRL. It's no where near as deadly as stuff like VX which can kill you in less than 5 minutes. Trilithium Resin takes HOURS of constant exposure much like CS gas(which is used by police as a riot control agent). Thus Sisko's superiors decided there was no need for a trial. Honestly calling it a "biogenic" weapon was an unusual application of "Sci-fi writers have no sense of scale".
The virus the Vaadwaur cooked up to kill the Kobali though? Took longer than 5 minutes to kill, but it was a contagious plague and 5 minutes of exposure was enough to doom you unless you received an anti-viral treatment specifically targeted to it. AND it was tailored to only kill the Kobali and NOT Vaadwaur or any other race.
True, for modern era it would be viewed more as a chemical weapon. Basically a gas attack. But all of them, except CS gas, are basically outlawed as well by the Geneva Convention. You know, we can't go to our local warp core and pick them up.
But on the same token here, cobalt diselenide would be defined the same way.
However, for Star Trek, they seem to combine the two in the same category. Chemical and Biological, become Biogenic, or bioweapons.
And if you think about it from this point a view. A good chunk of the ground abilities, and some of the ship abilities, would be defined as this very thing. Like the corrosive grenade. Or any radiation attacks.
Wow, thinking on it this way, we're all a bunch of law breakers.
Edit: Forum langolears, begone! x2 (I r not engrish tuday)
Which merely reinforces the point that it wasn't the WEAPONS that made the actions of the Maquis illegal, it was their targets.
And they were only targeting Cardassian worlds with them. Since cobalt diselenide is only harmful to Cardassians.
Sisko aimed his at Maquis worlds, which were mostly his species, human. He also admits he didn't seek Starfleet's approval for this.
I'm not saying one is worse than the other here.
However I will point out, the Bajoran's did worse things to the Cardassians. They were actually viewed as terrorists by the Cardassians. Yet, Starfleet left them alone, for the most part. Because of Bajor's location to DS9 and the wormhole.
The Maquis were just fighting to free themselves from Cardassian aggression, while declaring themselves free colonies/worlds, instead of Federation citizens.
Also upon reading over the information once again about the Maquis. I'm, seeing a whole lot of disabled Starfleet ships, not so many that were destroyed. However, lots of Cardassian stuff did get destroyed.
The main reason I'm seeing for Starfleet to go after them, is all the Starfleet officers that joined them.
Along with others from various species. Eventually, the Maquis included members of the Human, Vulcan, Bajoran, Betazoid, Bolian, and Klingon species.
I'd mainly blame it on the Starfleet officers that joined them. But when you have Vulcans joining your cause... that itself makes a statement.
True, for modern era it would be viewed more as a chemical weapon. Basically a gas attack. But all of them, except CS gas, are basically outlawed as well by the Geneva Convention. You know, we can't go to our local warp core and pick them up.
But on the same token here, cobalt diselenide would be defined the same way.
However, for Star Trek, they seem to combine the two in the same category. Chemical and Biological, become Biogenic, or bioweapons.
And if you think about it from this point a view. A good chunk of the ground abilities, and some of the ship abilities, would be defined as this very thing. Like the corrosive grenade. Or any radiation attacks.
Wow, thinking on it this way, we're all a bunch of law breakers.
Edit: Forum langolears, begone! x2 (I r not engrish tuday)
Essentially, it was a Radiological attack. Sisko sterilized a planet with a WMD (in this case, reactor waste from a warp core) to force the Federation's will on it's own wayward citizens. Sisko was lucky that Eddington caved. A more cynical and ruthless resistance leader would have some amazing propaganda out of this. Even so, how this did not become a scandal that shook the Federation to it's core mystifies me. Either it was covered up by Starfleet and the Federation gov't....the public in the Federation truly does not care about what goes on outside the Core Worlds....or more likely, the writers gave no though whatsover to the ramifications of the solution they dreamed up to resolve the episode. It's also frightening that the order was carried out seemingly without question....i guess the logical conclusion of Starfleet officers being encourage to take their families with them into space, cutting down on contact with the citizens they are supposed to be defending.
In this context, Fed Realpolitik towards the Vaads in those tubes on Kobali Prime makes a lot more sense now. If Starfleet will use WMDs on Federation civilians...highly ironic given the "heroes" of current expansion...letting the Kobali re-purpose Enemy prisoners held in stasis is small potatoes. Dralia was merely expressing how Paris felt about the matter....the ends justify the means.
Which merely reinforces the point that it wasn't the WEAPONS that made the actions of the Maquis illegal, it was their targets.
And they were only targeting Cardassian worlds with them. Since cobalt diselenide is only harmful to Cardassians.
Yeah, attacking Cardassians... because? Oh right, no particular reason other than they wanted to kick them out.
However I will point out, the Bajoran's did worse things to the Cardassians. They were actually viewed as terrorists by the Cardassians. Yet, Starfleet left them alone, for the most part. Because of Bajor's location to DS9 and the wormhole.
The Maquis were just fighting to free themselves from Cardassian aggression, while declaring themselves free colonies/worlds, instead of Federation citizens.
they had the option to move to planets NOT in Cardassian space. In fact the Enterprise itself once got sent to deal with one of these situations.
Also upon reading over the information once again about the Maquis. I'm, seeing a whole lot of disabled Starfleet ships, not so many that were destroyed. However, lots of Cardassian stuff did get destroyed.
The main reason I'm seeing for Starfleet to go after them, is all the Starfleet officers that joined them.
Along with others from various species. Eventually, the Maquis included members of the Human, Vulcan, Bajoran, Betazoid, Bolian, and Klingon species.
I'd mainly blame it on the Starfleet officers that joined them. But when you have Vulcans joining your cause... that itself makes a statement.
OR.... It's because the Fed/Cardie treaty requires the Feds to take care of it? I mean didn't the one Cardie guy basically say that if the Cardies had to evict the Maquis from planets that they'd shoot to kill?
Which merely reinforces the point that it wasn't the WEAPONS that made the actions of the Maquis illegal, it was their targets.
And they were only targeting Cardassian worlds with them. Since cobalt diselenide is only harmful to Cardassians.
Yeah, attacking Cardassians... because? Oh right, no particular reason other than they wanted to kick them out.
However I will point out, the Bajoran's did worse things to the Cardassians. They were actually viewed as terrorists by the Cardassians. Yet, Starfleet left them alone, for the most part. Because of Bajor's location to DS9 and the wormhole.
The Maquis were just fighting to free themselves from Cardassian aggression, while declaring themselves free colonies/worlds, instead of Federation citizens.
they had the option to move to planets NOT in Cardassian space. In fact the Enterprise itself once got sent to deal with one of these situations.
Also upon reading over the information once again about the Maquis. I'm, seeing a whole lot of disabled Starfleet ships, not so many that were destroyed. However, lots of Cardassian stuff did get destroyed.
The main reason I'm seeing for Starfleet to go after them, is all the Starfleet officers that joined them.
Along with others from various species. Eventually, the Maquis included members of the Human, Vulcan, Bajoran, Betazoid, Bolian, and Klingon species.
I'd mainly blame it on the Starfleet officers that joined them. But when you have Vulcans joining your cause... that itself makes a statement.
OR.... It's because the Fed/Cardie treaty requires the Feds to take care of it? I mean didn't the one Cardie guy basically say that if the Cardies had to evict the Maquis from planets that they'd shoot to kill?
Which merely reinforces the point that it wasn't the WEAPONS that made the actions of the Maquis illegal, it was their targets.
And they were only targeting Cardassian worlds with them. Since cobalt diselenide is only harmful to Cardassians.
Yeah, attacking Cardassians... because? Oh right, no particular reason other than they wanted to kick them out.
However I will point out, the Bajoran's did worse things to the Cardassians. They were actually viewed as terrorists by the Cardassians. Yet, Starfleet left them alone, for the most part. Because of Bajor's location to DS9 and the wormhole.
The Maquis were just fighting to free themselves from Cardassian aggression, while declaring themselves free colonies/worlds, instead of Federation citizens.
they had the option to move to planets NOT in Cardassian space. In fact the Enterprise itself once got sent to deal with one of these situations.
Also upon reading over the information once again about the Maquis. I'm, seeing a whole lot of disabled Starfleet ships, not so many that were destroyed. However, lots of Cardassian stuff did get destroyed.
The main reason I'm seeing for Starfleet to go after them, is all the Starfleet officers that joined them.
Along with others from various species. Eventually, the Maquis included members of the Human, Vulcan, Bajoran, Betazoid, Bolian, and Klingon species.
I'd mainly blame it on the Starfleet officers that joined them. But when you have Vulcans joining your cause... that itself makes a statement.
OR.... It's because the Fed/Cardie treaty requires the Feds to take care of it? I mean didn't the one Cardie guy basically say that if the Cardies had to evict the Maquis from planets that they'd shoot to kill?
Yeah.. because because "You're not cardassian. So leave your home and get out." Not a very popular idea for anyone.
They did have the option to move. Again, would you move just because someone told you to? And the system you mention is Dorvan V. The Enterprise-D was sent there with orders to remove the colonists by whatever means necassay. Let that sink in. The Ent-D was sent to remove the colonits, by whatever means necassary, including force. Which, the Native Ameria's that has settled there, told the Federation to TRIBBLE off. They elected to renounce their Federation citizenship and be governed by the Cardassians, instead of leaving their home.
Yeah, because, "Get out or we'll kill you." has worked so well when evicting people. What would you do if someone, say the government, came to your home and said, "Get out of I'll kill you?" Would you bow down and run? Or would you do whatever you needed to, to protect your home? I don't know about you. But I'm going to defend what is mine, and not give it up. And if I die in the process. Well I died in the right, as I was defending my home. This is threatening people with murder, to get them to leave.
And the treaty you mention. the Federation-Cardassian Treaty of 2370, only dealt with the the establishment of the DMZ and it's border. It did not include things such as this. It did make it difficult for Starfleet and the Cardassians to do anything. As it forbid the deployment of armaments, and military posts within it. This treaty is also the very thing that eventually led to the establishment of the Maquis.
"The official border, which ran through the zone, was redrawn requiring the exchange of several worlds. Although the colonists on these worlds were given the option of resettlement, many refused as they felt that their rights had been ignored. The resulting dissatisfaction eventually led to the establishment of the underground insurgency group called Maquis."
The reason for the territory swapping wasn't all that hard for most people to understand, in or out of universe.... Prior to the treaty there effectively wasn't a border. Technically there was one, but due to the ongoing conflict both sides ignored it. Thus there were Federation colonies deep inside Cardassian territory, and vice versa. Apparently the Cardassians didn't feel the need to make a diplomatic incident about it.
See what you ignored was that due to the treaty, the Maquis were effectively squatters living on Cardassian land. While not wanting to relocate is understandable, starting an armed rebellion because of it is not.
And before someone asks, YES the Cardassians handed over quite a lot of stuff to the Feds in exchange.... DS9 is one huge example.
The reason for the territory swapping wasn't all that hard for most people to understand, in or out of universe.... Prior to the treaty there effectively wasn't a border. Technically there was one, but due to the ongoing conflict both sides ignored it. Thus there were Federation colonies deep inside Cardassian territory, and vice versa. Apparently the Cardassians didn't feel the need to make a diplomatic incident about it.
See what you ignored was that due to the treaty, the Maquis were effectively squatters living on Cardassian land. While not wanting to relocate is understandable, starting an armed rebellion because of it is not.
And before someone asks, YES the Cardassians handed over quite a lot of stuff to the Feds in exchange.... DS9 is one huge example.
They didn't hand DS9 to the Feds, they lost it to the Bajorans when they pulled out of the system. The station is canonically Bajoran property, Starfleet just runs the place.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Whats really screwed up about Dorvan V is that Picard just toed the line and treated the descendants of Native Americans like garbage but when he met the Baku and was faced with EXACTLY THE SAME situation...
Honestly, I took that as evidence Picard had learned a painful lesson over Dorvan V and the larger Maquis problem, and then swung too far the other direction.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Whats really screwed up about Dorvan V is that Picard just toed the line and treated the descendants of Native Americans like garbage but when he met the Baku and was faced with EXACTLY THE SAME situation...
Honestly, I took that as evidence Picard had learned a painful lesson over Dorvan V and the larger Maquis problem, and then swung too far the other direction.
I'd say so. It was Picard's first tun with with a group of Federation Citizens that would rather fight the a losing war against the Federation, instead of bowing down to them. Which would have been a one-sided massacre. An act of genocide, if you will, on Starfleet's part here in order to make them move. Remember, this falls within the order of "any means necessary." that Picard had.
But it shows the Federation is willing to do the same thing the Cardassians threatened in order to "evict" these colonists.
This right here is also part of the reason the Maquis were established. Dorvan V happened right after the treaty of 2370.
On a side note, one that I find rather entertaining. When looking up the Maquis, one can also find the Maquis from World War II. Which, got most of it rise after the Service du travail obligatoire (English: Compulsory Work Service), or STO for short, was put in place.
> @starswordc said:
> azrael605 wrote: »
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> Whats really screwed up about Dorvan V is that Picard just toed the line and treated the descendants of Native Americans like garbage but when he met the Baku and was faced with EXACTLY THE SAME situation...
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> Honestly, I took that as evidence Picard had learned a painful lesson over Dorvan V and the larger Maquis problem, and then swung too far the other direction.
I get that, and largely agree, but honestly as a Lakota the Dorvan V episode drives me livid. It is way more insulting than Chakotay's fake tribe or that Voyager's consultant on North and South American aboriginals was a fraud and completely unqualified. The episode actually manages to be worse than the TOS's Paradise Syndrome with it's rampantly 60's take on Natives.
SF Debris did a brilliant takedown of Voyager's inept attempts at positive First Nations portrayals in this video. The opening bit alone is worth it, as the punch line basically boils down to "Are you offended yet? Well if you aren't there's something wrong with you."
Whats really screwed up about Dorvan V is that Picard just toed the line and treated the descendants of Native Americans like garbage but when he met the Baku and was faced with EXACTLY THE SAME situation...
Honestly, I took that as evidence Picard had learned a painful lesson over Dorvan V and the larger Maquis problem, and then swung too far the other direction.
Nah, there's one MASSIVE difference between the two. Who owns the planet?
In the case of Dorvan, the Federation once controlled it but signed it over to the Cardassians as part of a treaty. The inhabitants were then living in Cardassian territory. This was solely because they refused to move even though Picard himself offered to help them move.
In the case of the Baku, the only race with a legitimate claim to owning the planet was the Baku.
As an old saying goes possession is 9/10ths of the law..... The Baku owned the planet in contention, the inhabitants of Dorvan didn't.
The worst part is that the guy was exposed as a fraud in 1984! That's pre-TNG, how did this guy get hired? If he had at least been qualified on the subject it would be fine but he wasn't. I've said before that I think what happened to Dolezal was overboard, but this guy did the same thing and just kept on working. Several tribes are still fighting to get books he wrote containing false information removed from school reading lists.
Don't forget, it was 1995. Google didn't launch until almost three years later (there were other search engines, but they were fairly primitive) and not that many documents were available on the Internet.
But on the other hand, Nightwish got fooled the same way in '04 when they were writing "Creek Mary's Blood" for Once (which is unfortunately otherwise a very beautiful song about the Trail of Tears): a few years ago a Shoshone member of the Nightwish forums posted that a Lakota friend had called BS on the poem in Lakota* at the end of the song and did some investigating. John Two-Hawks, who is apparently a white guy from Texas, doubled down when he was called on it.
* The band was aware that the Lakota weren't affected by the Indian Removal Act, but they weren't able to find any artists who spoke the correct languages whom they could get to come to Finland.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
The worst part is that the guy was exposed as a fraud in 1984! That's pre-TNG, how did this guy get hired? If he had at least been qualified on the subject it would be fine but he wasn't. I've said before that I think what happened to Dolezal was overboard, but this guy did the same thing and just kept on working. Several tribes are still fighting to get books he wrote containing false information removed from school reading lists.
Don't forget, it was 1995. Google didn't launch until almost three years later (there were other search engines, but they were fairly primitive) and not that many documents were available on the Internet.
But on the other hand, Nightwish got fooled the same way in '04 when they were writing "Creek Mary's Blood" for Once (which is unfortunately otherwise a very beautiful song about the Trail of Tears): a few years ago a Shoshone member of the Nightwish forums posted that a Lakota friend had called BS on the poem in Lakota* at the end of the song and did some investigating. John Two-Hawks, who is apparently a white guy from Texas, doubled down when he was called on it.
* The band was aware that the Lakota weren't affected by the Indian Removal Act, but they weren't able to find any artists who spoke the correct languages whom they could get to come to Finland.
Of course another question is if Lakota is linguistically similar to one of the languages that is now dead and has no living speakers to write a poem using it.
The worst part is that the guy was exposed as a fraud in 1984! That's pre-TNG, how did this guy get hired? If he had at least been qualified on the subject it would be fine but he wasn't. I've said before that I think what happened to Dolezal was overboard, but this guy did the same thing and just kept on working. Several tribes are still fighting to get books he wrote containing false information removed from school reading lists.
Don't forget, it was 1995. Google didn't launch until almost three years later (there were other search engines, but they were fairly primitive) and not that many documents were available on the Internet.
But on the other hand, Nightwish got fooled the same way in '04 when they were writing "Creek Mary's Blood" for Once (which is unfortunately otherwise a very beautiful song about the Trail of Tears): a few years ago a Shoshone member of the Nightwish forums posted that a Lakota friend had called BS on the poem in Lakota* at the end of the song and did some investigating. John Two-Hawks, who is apparently a white guy from Texas, doubled down when he was called on it.
* The band was aware that the Lakota weren't affected by the Indian Removal Act, but they weren't able to find any artists who spoke the correct languages whom they could get to come to Finland.
Of course another question is if Lakota is linguistically similar to one of the languages that is now dead and has no living speakers to write a poem using it.
I don't know the linguistics for that, but there are definitely still people who speak Cherokee as a first language (in my state, even: the Eastern Band is about five hours west of me). So in theory it could have been done.
The poem in question was actually written by Tuomas Holopainen in English, but Two-Hawks translated it (or claimed to: according to a Lakota language professor who was consulted in the forum thread, he basically did a 1:1 translation with English-equivalent grammar).
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Biogenic_weapon
Biogenic weapons, or "bioweapons", were a classification of weapon that caused little or no damage to starships or infrastructure, but instead were designed to biogenically interfere with lifeforms, most commonly to attack people. This category included genetically-engineered viruses, poisonous chemical compounds, and other similar materials. Examples of biogenic weapons included cobalt diselenide, which was deadly to Cardassians, and trilithium resin, which was deadly to Humans. (DS9: "For the Uniform")
Bio-mimetic gel could be used to make biogenic weapons when combined with retroviral vaccines. (DS9: "In the Pale Moonlight"; TNG: "Preemptive Strike")
You were saying?
My character Tsin'xing
Not to mention that the "-genic" suffix actually means "causing", "forming", or "producing", or "produced by" or "formed from". "Biogenic" ought to mean something akin to "producing life" or "produced by life", not "inimical to life".
So yeah, it's a nonsense word that's used to sound fancy.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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Exactly!
Though I can also understand the confusion on this. Even with current standards it fall within two of the three attacks. Which for the U.S. Army are chemical, biologial, and nuclear. This type of thing would fall in the chemical and biological areas. As it both.
Having spent time in the Army, and training to know how to handle this kind of thing. I can say both Eddington's and Sisko use of them are abysmal. But, Eddington is the better man here. He gave himself up, along with the weapons, to prevent Sicko from further using his. Sisko, however, ran off to live in the wormhole. Instead of facing the charges for it. Since he didn't bother with getting Starfleet's approval before hand. Oh wait... that makes him a terrorist as well. But, this is beside the point.
Had Sisko stood trial and been acquitted, I wouldn't even mention it.
The virus the Vaadwaur cooked up to kill the Kobali though? Took longer than 5 minutes to kill, but it was a contagious plague and 5 minutes of exposure was enough to doom you unless you received an anti-viral treatment specifically targeted to it. AND it was tailored to only kill the Kobali and NOT Vaadwaur or any other race.
My character Tsin'xing
True, for modern era it would be viewed more as a chemical weapon. Basically a gas attack. But all of them, except CS gas, are basically outlawed as well by the Geneva Convention. You know, we can't go to our local warp core and pick them up.
But on the same token here, cobalt diselenide would be defined the same way.
However, for Star Trek, they seem to combine the two in the same category. Chemical and Biological, become Biogenic, or bioweapons.
And if you think about it from this point a view. A good chunk of the ground abilities, and some of the ship abilities, would be defined as this very thing. Like the corrosive grenade. Or any radiation attacks.
Wow, thinking on it this way, we're all a bunch of law breakers.
Edit: Forum langolears, begone! x2 (I r not engrish tuday)
My character Tsin'xing
And they were only targeting Cardassian worlds with them. Since cobalt diselenide is only harmful to Cardassians.
Sisko aimed his at Maquis worlds, which were mostly his species, human. He also admits he didn't seek Starfleet's approval for this.
I'm not saying one is worse than the other here.
However I will point out, the Bajoran's did worse things to the Cardassians. They were actually viewed as terrorists by the Cardassians. Yet, Starfleet left them alone, for the most part. Because of Bajor's location to DS9 and the wormhole.
The Maquis were just fighting to free themselves from Cardassian aggression, while declaring themselves free colonies/worlds, instead of Federation citizens.
Also upon reading over the information once again about the Maquis. I'm, seeing a whole lot of disabled Starfleet ships, not so many that were destroyed. However, lots of Cardassian stuff did get destroyed.
The main reason I'm seeing for Starfleet to go after them, is all the Starfleet officers that joined them.
Along with others from various species. Eventually, the Maquis included members of the Human, Vulcan, Bajoran, Betazoid, Bolian, and Klingon species.
I'd mainly blame it on the Starfleet officers that joined them. But when you have Vulcans joining your cause... that itself makes a statement.
Essentially, it was a Radiological attack. Sisko sterilized a planet with a WMD (in this case, reactor waste from a warp core) to force the Federation's will on it's own wayward citizens. Sisko was lucky that Eddington caved. A more cynical and ruthless resistance leader would have some amazing propaganda out of this. Even so, how this did not become a scandal that shook the Federation to it's core mystifies me. Either it was covered up by Starfleet and the Federation gov't....the public in the Federation truly does not care about what goes on outside the Core Worlds....or more likely, the writers gave no though whatsover to the ramifications of the solution they dreamed up to resolve the episode. It's also frightening that the order was carried out seemingly without question....i guess the logical conclusion of Starfleet officers being encourage to take their families with them into space, cutting down on contact with the citizens they are supposed to be defending.
In this context, Fed Realpolitik towards the Vaads in those tubes on Kobali Prime makes a lot more sense now. If Starfleet will use WMDs on Federation civilians...highly ironic given the "heroes" of current expansion...letting the Kobali re-purpose Enemy prisoners held in stasis is small potatoes. Dralia was merely expressing how Paris felt about the matter....the ends justify the means.
they had the option to move to planets NOT in Cardassian space. In fact the Enterprise itself once got sent to deal with one of these situations.
OR.... It's because the Fed/Cardie treaty requires the Feds to take care of it? I mean didn't the one Cardie guy basically say that if the Cardies had to evict the Maquis from planets that they'd shoot to kill?
My character Tsin'xing
Yeah.. because because "You're not cardassian. So leave your home and get out." Not a very popular idea for anyone.
They did have the option to move. Again, would you move just because someone told you to? And the system you mention is Dorvan V. The Enterprise-D was sent there with orders to remove the colonists by whatever means necassay. Let that sink in. The Ent-D was sent to remove the colonits, by whatever means necassary, including force. Which, the Native Ameria's that has settled there, told the Federation to TRIBBLE off. They elected to renounce their Federation citizenship and be governed by the Cardassians, instead of leaving their home.
Yeah, because, "Get out or we'll kill you." has worked so well when evicting people. What would you do if someone, say the government, came to your home and said, "Get out of I'll kill you?" Would you bow down and run? Or would you do whatever you needed to, to protect your home? I don't know about you. But I'm going to defend what is mine, and not give it up. And if I die in the process. Well I died in the right, as I was defending my home. This is threatening people with murder, to get them to leave.
And the treaty you mention. the Federation-Cardassian Treaty of 2370, only dealt with the the establishment of the DMZ and it's border. It did not include things such as this. It did make it difficult for Starfleet and the Cardassians to do anything. As it forbid the deployment of armaments, and military posts within it. This treaty is also the very thing that eventually led to the establishment of the Maquis.
"The official border, which ran through the zone, was redrawn requiring the exchange of several worlds. Although the colonists on these worlds were given the option of resettlement, many refused as they felt that their rights had been ignored. The resulting dissatisfaction eventually led to the establishment of the underground insurgency group called Maquis."
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Federation-Cardassian_Treaty
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Dorvan_V
See what you ignored was that due to the treaty, the Maquis were effectively squatters living on Cardassian land. While not wanting to relocate is understandable, starting an armed rebellion because of it is not.
And before someone asks, YES the Cardassians handed over quite a lot of stuff to the Feds in exchange.... DS9 is one huge example.
My character Tsin'xing
They didn't hand DS9 to the Feds, they lost it to the Bajorans when they pulled out of the system. The station is canonically Bajoran property, Starfleet just runs the place.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Honestly, I took that as evidence Picard had learned a painful lesson over Dorvan V and the larger Maquis problem, and then swung too far the other direction.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I'd say so. It was Picard's first tun with with a group of Federation Citizens that would rather fight the a losing war against the Federation, instead of bowing down to them. Which would have been a one-sided massacre. An act of genocide, if you will, on Starfleet's part here in order to make them move. Remember, this falls within the order of "any means necessary." that Picard had.
But it shows the Federation is willing to do the same thing the Cardassians threatened in order to "evict" these colonists.
This right here is also part of the reason the Maquis were established. Dorvan V happened right after the treaty of 2370.
On a side note, one that I find rather entertaining. When looking up the Maquis, one can also find the Maquis from World War II. Which, got most of it rise after the Service du travail obligatoire (English: Compulsory Work Service), or STO for short, was put in place.
SF Debris did a brilliant takedown of Voyager's inept attempts at positive First Nations portrayals in this video. The opening bit alone is worth it, as the punch line basically boils down to "Are you offended yet? Well if you aren't there's something wrong with you."
https://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/v825.php
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In the case of Dorvan, the Federation once controlled it but signed it over to the Cardassians as part of a treaty. The inhabitants were then living in Cardassian territory. This was solely because they refused to move even though Picard himself offered to help them move.
In the case of the Baku, the only race with a legitimate claim to owning the planet was the Baku.
As an old saying goes possession is 9/10ths of the law..... The Baku owned the planet in contention, the inhabitants of Dorvan didn't.
My character Tsin'xing
Don't forget, it was 1995. Google didn't launch until almost three years later (there were other search engines, but they were fairly primitive) and not that many documents were available on the Internet.
But on the other hand, Nightwish got fooled the same way in '04 when they were writing "Creek Mary's Blood" for Once (which is unfortunately otherwise a very beautiful song about the Trail of Tears): a few years ago a Shoshone member of the Nightwish forums posted that a Lakota friend had called BS on the poem in Lakota* at the end of the song and did some investigating. John Two-Hawks, who is apparently a white guy from Texas, doubled down when he was called on it.
* The band was aware that the Lakota weren't affected by the Indian Removal Act, but they weren't able to find any artists who spoke the correct languages whom they could get to come to Finland.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
My character Tsin'xing
I don't know the linguistics for that, but there are definitely still people who speak Cherokee as a first language (in my state, even: the Eastern Band is about five hours west of me). So in theory it could have been done.
The poem in question was actually written by Tuomas Holopainen in English, but Two-Hawks translated it (or claimed to: according to a Lakota language professor who was consulted in the forum thread, he basically did a 1:1 translation with English-equivalent grammar).
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
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