Cryptic has done a number of truly bad story arcs. The Kobali was one of the worst. Now the writers of Voyager made the mistake first, but I consider a repeated mistake to be more serious than the first occurrence.
I'm hoping that VIL missions represent a change in direction. The story there I actually liked, and they were the first ones in a long time that didn't suck. Wasn't perfect- they didn't allow us to run Vorta and the Jem Hadar are completely out of character. But still, it's their best work since New Romulus.
I would argue the Kobali arc is one of the best, because people keep discussing it and feel it a moral and ethical challenging topic. The game is usually pretty tame when it comes to such discussions and keeps things simple and uncontroversial.
Very true. the Kobali story is one of the few in the game where people actually felt like discussing it outside the game!
Cryptic has done a number of truly bad story arcs. The Kobali was one of the worst. Now the writers of Voyager made the mistake first, but I consider a repeated mistake to be more serious than the first occurrence.
I'm hoping that VIL missions represent a change in direction. The story there I actually liked, and they were the first ones in a long time that didn't suck. Wasn't perfect- they didn't allow us to run Vorta and the Jem Hadar are completely out of character. But still, it's their best work since New Romulus.
I would argue the Kobali arc is one of the best, because people keep discussing it and feel it a moral and ethical challenging topic. The game is usually pretty tame when it comes to such discussions and keeps things simple and uncontroversial.
Morally and ethically, by the story line here, the Kobali are the bad guys. They've been desecrating the graves and dead of other species, without permission, just to further their own species. A species, that they admit, did it to themselves. The Second Life is the answer they found for genetically altering their own race to the point of not being able to reproduce any other way.
The Vaadwuar's desire to exterminate them for this is called... justice.
The moral and ethical thing to do here, would have been to let it happen. As the Vaadwuar, and any other species that viewed this heinous act as wrong, are in the right. But Starfleet had to stop justice from being served, under the guise of being the 'good guy'.
But in a great act of appeasement, much the same as Picard and Sisko did with the Cardassians, the Federation sided with the bad guy here. Which, their entire way of life is ILLEGAL in the Federation. Meaning, siding with the Kobali is morally and ethically wrong from the very beginning.
So when Admiral Fish-face tosses the Prime Directive out here, the immediate response that any Starfleet officer that keeps Federation Law in mind, would have been to throw the Bullschit flag on top of that pile. And, you as the player, have no choice by to go along with it, just so that you can further play the arc.
So, this in turns is nothing more than the usual, Starfleet ignoring Federation law, to further their own agenda, all the while trying to sugar coat it with the guise of being the 'good guy'. When, in fact, siding with the Kobali here makes Starfleet the bad guy as well.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
While disgusting, the Kobali practice of Kobalifying corpses isn't worth fighting a war over.......OTOH, the way they were ghoulishly sitting on thousands of live Varduaar in stasis waiting for them to die so the could Kobalify them, that is downright vile, even if the Vaduaar are Iconian proxies. If those were humans, or Romulans or Klingons in those tubes it would have meant war.
Cryptic has done a number of truly bad story arcs. The Kobali was one of the worst. Now the writers of Voyager made the mistake first, but I consider a repeated mistake to be more serious than the first occurrence.
I'm hoping that VIL missions represent a change in direction. The story there I actually liked, and they were the first ones in a long time that didn't suck. Wasn't perfect- they didn't allow us to run Vorta and the Jem Hadar are completely out of character. But still, it's their best work since New Romulus.
I would argue the Kobali arc is one of the best, because people keep discussing it and feel it a moral and ethical challenging topic. The game is usually pretty tame when it comes to such discussions and keeps things simple and uncontroversial.
Except that it's not a morally and ethically challenging topic to the player character. The player never gets to so much as comment as the Cutscene Captains discuss the situation. We get to stand aside and wait until it's time to go out and shoot some more people again. The highest-ranking Alliance officer present, we're reduced to a silent observer tacitly approving the whole thing with no second thought.
Compare for example to Midnight, which was also controversial, but there we are allowed to speak our minds. Even though the conclusion of the mission is fixed (as it must be), our characters are allowed to participate in the discussion that comes to that conclusion.
The Vaadwuar's desire to exterminate them for this is called... justice.
Incorrect. The Vaadwaur would have attacked them anyways. Also the Vaads didn't really care about the guys in storage, more about the guys who were recently shot to death.
Cryptic has done a number of truly bad story arcs. The Kobali was one of the worst. Now the writers of Voyager made the mistake first, but I consider a repeated mistake to be more serious than the first occurrence.
I'm hoping that VIL missions represent a change in direction. The story there I actually liked, and they were the first ones in a long time that didn't suck. Wasn't perfect- they didn't allow us to run Vorta and the Jem Hadar are completely out of character. But still, it's their best work since New Romulus.
I would argue the Kobali arc is one of the best, because people keep discussing it and feel it a moral and ethical challenging topic. The game is usually pretty tame when it comes to such discussions and keeps things simple and uncontroversial.
Except that it's not a morally and ethically challenging topic to the player character. The player never gets to so much as comment as the Cutscene Captains discuss the situation. We get to stand aside and wait until it's time to go out and shoot some more people again. The highest-ranking Alliance officer present, we're reduced to a silent observer tacitly approving the whole thing with no second thought.
Compare for example to Midnight, which was also controversial, but there we are allowed to speak our minds. Even though the conclusion of the mission is fixed (as it must be), our characters are allowed to participate in the discussion that comes to that conclusion.
Exactly, and that's one more thing i don't like about that storyarc... Despite whatever is tossed at us, we never really get to speak our mind on the matter, and we are basically dragged around till the Kobali formulate vague apologies, then "All is well in the Best of Worlds". Yet this is very one-sided and unsatisfactory in the end, just like the conclusion of the Delta Rising storyarc, actually. We never get to see what happened to the Vaadwaur survivors at the end of the conflict, and they ultimately just come off as mere weekly bad guys to be killed.
Still, if anyone remembers the Voyager episode that featured the Vaadwaur ("Dragon's Teeth"), you should also consider this : if the Voyager crew managed to pull out of this mess, it was primarily thanks to one of the Vaadwaur, namely Gedrin, who had come to sympathize with the crew and opposed his own people's schemes, at the cost of his life.
Honestly, instead of having the totality of the Vaadwaur tossed at us like unredeemable and deceptive warmongers all along, i believe it would have been much more appropriate and Trekkish to witness a fraction of their people being similarly peace-oriented and willing to help the alliance solve the conflict.
> @markhawkman said: > trennan wrote: » > > The Vaadwuar's desire to exterminate them for this is called... justice. > > > > Incorrect. The Vaadwaur would have attacked them anyways. Also the Vaads didn't really care about the guys in storage, more about the guys who were recently shot to death.
The Vaadwaur are technically the aggressors in that clusterphekk, yes. But they really don't do anything totally horrible and out of proportion in that arc, either (Gaul's little temper tantrum happened elsewhere and is on him alone). They noticed the Kobali were converting Vaadwaur battlefield casualties into more Kobali, and they took steps to stop it by vaccinating their troops (which, key point, we the PCs are made to reverse for no good reason). That also led them to the development of a frankly rather precise and humane chemical weapon (kills almost instantly and apparently painlessly, which, compare that to the chlorine, mustard, and phosgene gas that were used in WWI), which they're only shown using against legitimate military targets (enemy ground troops).
Compare that to the kinds of things you can do if you're playing a Klingon, like torturing and murdering prisoners, selling them into slavery, raiding civilian targets.
Let that sink in: viewed objectively, the Vaadwaur do less bad things than ONE OF THE PLAYABLE FACTIONS.
"Justice"? That's pushing it. But the Vaads are perfectly within their rights to not want their people to be turned into Kobali and take steps to prevent it, ESPECIALLY since that means any Vaadwaur who falls in battle can be turned into another enemy soldier: they're an endangered species as it is!
And yeah, they did, in fact, care about the cryo vault: it's explicitly mentioned when the vault is revealed that the Vaads held back because they were worried about killing their own people by accident.
EDIT: Grammar.
Post edited by starswordc on
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Okay, I have my issues with Kobali, but I balk at the idea of outright genocide. I think a nice thing to have added to the Delta Rising story is to maybe start the ball rolling on a cure for what the Kobali did to themselves, so they can one day start procreating normally again. Curing it outright, while not outside the realm of possibility for Star Trek given it's practically polyamourous relationship to science, would make for weaker storytelling, at least in my opinion. Think like curing the Krogan Genophage in Mass Effect 3.
Okay, I have my issues with Kobali, but I balk at the idea of outright genocide. I think a nice thing to have added to the Delta Rising story is to maybe start the ball rolling on a cure for what the Kobali did to themselves, so they can one day start procreating normally again. Curing it outright, while not outside the realm of possibility for Star Trek given it's practically polyamourous relationship to science, would make for weaker storytelling, at least in my opinion. Think like curing the Krogan Genophage in Mass Effect 3.
I would agree with this, if that's how it went. It's better than what we did though.
I never mentioned participating in genocide. Just not stopping the vaadwuar, who had every right to do what they did.
Especially when the Kobali were holding the vaadwuar in the stasis pods hostage. Even at the end, when this comes to light, and a "peace" is formed. The Kobali are still left holding said hostages. There wasn't even any oversight agreed upon. Just the "promise" that the Kobali would look after the pods that were still functioning.
Only in Star Trek would the good guy bow down and let the hostage holders have heir way.
Only in Star Trek would the good guy bow down and let the hostage holders have heir way.
That was because the Alliance A) Needed the Kobali as proxies, and The Vaads aren't popular so noone cares.
If they were sitting on, say, the passengers of a DY-100 from the 21st Century or other Fed citizens.....the Feds would have gone in guns blazing. If they were Romulans or Klingons.....it would have gotten real ugly.
Only in Star Trek would the good guy bow down and let the hostage holders have heir way.
That was because the Alliance A) Needed the Kobali as proxies, and The Vaads aren't popular so noone cares.
If they were sitting on, say, the passengers of a DY-100 from the 21st Century or other Fed citizens.....the Feds would have gone in guns blazing. If they were Romulans or Klingons.....it would have gotten real ugly.
That's what I'm getting at. Had it been Federation citizens, a different outcome would have happened. Meaning, the Federation, and Starfleet, lose their ability to claim the moral high ground after this. "We're the good guys, but only when it applies to our people." If you can't live by your morals on this all the time, with everything you do, you never had them to begin with.
And you're also right. Had the hostages been Klingon or Romulan, we wouldn't be having this conversation. As the highest probability would be, the Kobali would not exist any more. Well, this is more probable with the Klingons here. I'm not sure how the Romulans would react. But, given what one goes through as a Romulan, I would imagine it would be pretty bad. As this would be the same as what the Tal'Shiar and Elachi were doing.
I also do not see Klingons going for this. After their centuries long, if not longer, problem with the Augment Virus. I would imagine they have a very negative view for this kind of thing. I'm personally glad they killed off Kahless, the Useless Clone of Kahless. It was the best thing they did for the Klingons ever. After the Augement Virus, a clone would have been viewed very negatively by most of the Empire. Remember Worf in that one time travel episode that put him and the ridgeless klingons on scree at the same time, and when asked all he replied with was, "We do not speak of it." A clone falls within this, meaning the clone of Kahless is another dark spot, just like the Augment Virus, of Klingon history that they wouldn't want to speak of. My klingon characters do not mention him, If they do, it's generally in a very disgusted manner, and calling him Kahlost, the Clone of Kahless. Because cloning, is where most, if not all genetic modifications begin. Thus, he would be a reminder of the Augement Virus.
Only in Star Trek would the good guy bow down and let the hostage holders have heir way.
That was because the Alliance A) Needed the Kobali as proxies, and The Vaads aren't popular so noone cares.
If they were sitting on, say, the passengers of a DY-100 from the 21st Century or other Fed citizens.....the Feds would have gone in guns blazing. If they were Romulans or Klingons.....it would have gotten real ugly.
No they wouldn't. They'd ask nicely because going in guns blazing is dumb... also... it's not exactly an emergency.
Only in Star Trek would the good guy bow down and let the hostage holders have heir way.
That was because the Alliance A) Needed the Kobali as proxies, and The Vaads aren't popular so noone cares.
If they were sitting on, say, the passengers of a DY-100 from the 21st Century or other Fed citizens.....the Feds would have gone in guns blazing. If they were Romulans or Klingons.....it would have gotten real ugly.
Like they did with the Maquis, when the UFP decided to play gift exchange with the Cardassians, regarding planets?
Only in Star Trek would the good guy bow down and let the hostage holders have heir way.
That was because the Alliance A) Needed the Kobali as proxies, and The Vaads aren't popular so noone cares.
If they were sitting on, say, the passengers of a DY-100 from the 21st Century or other Fed citizens.....the Feds would have gone in guns blazing. If they were Romulans or Klingons.....it would have gotten real ugly.
Like they did with the Maquis, when the UFP decided to play gift exchange with the Cardassians, regarding planets?
Another good point here. And when you look it up, you find that the Maquis, who were fighting to free themselves from Cardassian oppression, you find that they were listed as terrorists by Starfleet and the Federation. Even though their attacks on Starfleet vessels was more self-defense than attacks. They never actually attacked Starfleet vessels much. Though they did steal the Defiant at one point.
Two of the most interesting points that come from the Maquis about Starfleet are:
After Maxwell was apprehended, it turned out that he was telling the truth all along: Cardassians were carrying weapons to the science station and cargo ships were running with high energy subspace fields that jammed sensors. Picard confronted Gul Macet with the evidence, but Macet simply denied the obvious with a condescending smile, and essentially dared Picard to take the evidence to Starfleet and risk undoing the peace he had just worked so hard to broker. As it turned out, Macet was right: Picard, judging that to tell the truth (even though it would partially redeem Maxwell) could potentially cause more harm than it would repair, decided to let the Cardassians off with a stern warning while suppressing the intelligence on the covert armament of the space station. This decision (which flew in the face of Picard's usual staunch dedication to exposing the truth at all costs) set an ongoing precedent of appeasement towards the Cardassians that would last nearly a decade and create a major rift between the Federation and those who believed that a "peace at any price" policy was a betrayal of Starfleet's basic principles, particularly as they related to the rights of sentient peoples who found themselves trapped by Cardassian aggression.
And...
At the same time, Starfleet was vigilantly but fruitlessly pursuing Eddington, seeking to bring him to justice for his treason. Eddington attacked and disabled both the USS Defiant and the USS Malinche in separate engagements. Thus provoked, Captain Sisko launched his own offensive inside the DMZ, in an attempt to capture Eddington. Sisko attacked the Maquis colony on Solosos III, using trilithium resin to poison the planet's atmosphere and make it uninhabitable for Humans for the next fifty years. Sisko then announced his intention to poison every single Maquis colony in order to end the Maquis threat. Horrified, Eddington turned over the remaining biogenic weapons and surrendered himself to Starfleet in order to prevent such an attack.
The latter here being in response to Eddington's attacks on Cardassian worlds,not Federation one, and one of the reasons Sisko ran off to become the Emissary and live in the wormhole. Because had he not, he would have been arrested, tried, and convicted for this war crime. One of many he committed.
The former, setting the precedent of, bow down to the bad guy. Instead of you know, doing the right thing.
Yup, Starfleet has a real good record about caring for sentient life... as long as it serves their purpose.
Oh... wait... right, it was also Seven of Nine, a member of Voyager's crew, who woke the Vaadwuar up. In which, they just ran off and left this to happen. Because they didn't see any harm in what they did, or see any harm coming from it.
So the entire problem with Kobali and the Vaadwuar, was Starfleet's fault to begin with.
[/s] Yep, I'm seeing a real good track record of Starfleet being the good guys here. [/end_sarcasm]
That was because the Alliance A) Needed the Kobali as proxies
But did they? What do the kobali have to offer the Alliance? They have that one planet they can't even defend without us. They have that one ship that kinda sucks, with a crew so bad (or nonexistant) that zombie!Harry could steal it alone. What did we need them for?
They are damsels in distress that exist only to be rescued. From the consequences of their own actions no less. Instead of letting them dictate terms for said resuce, the Alliance should've rescued the hostages, put the people in charge of that whole funny business on trial for kidnapping and murder, and told the kobali to be good little zombies or fight the vaadwaur themselves.
In a perfect world, my KDF captain would have solved the issue by (after aiming the pointy end of disruptor pistol to the head of the fool talking down to him about the prime directive) by transporting a dozen tricobalt explosives into the cavern and denying it to both sides - One not for their necroconversion practices but the fact they tried to decieve us; the other as they are the enemy
Theres no honor in killing the cryostasis podded Vaads (especially as the evidence points they were doctors, scientists, ect) nor is there honor in a cowardly murder by neglect even if its for species propogation - As to the issue of the vaccine; that would be left to them to fight over - dead bodies technically being the spoils of war in this case it is down to either side to them to ensure viability/prevent their use
Okay, I have my issues with Kobali, but I balk at the idea of outright genocide. I think a nice thing to have added to the Delta Rising story is to maybe start the ball rolling on a cure for what the Kobali did to themselves, so they can one day start procreating normally again. Curing it outright, while not outside the realm of possibility for Star Trek given it's practically polyamourous relationship to science, would make for weaker storytelling, at least in my opinion. Think like curing the Krogan Genophage in Mass Effect 3.
I would agree with this, if that's how it went. It's better than what we did though.
I never mentioned participating in genocide. Just not stopping the vaadwuar, who had every right to do what they did.
Especially when the Kobali were holding the vaadwuar in the stasis pods hostage. Even at the end, when this comes to light, and a "peace" is formed. The Kobali are still left holding said hostages. There wasn't even any oversight agreed upon. Just the "promise" that the Kobali would look after the pods that were still functioning.
Only in Star Trek would the good guy bow down and let the hostage holders have heir way.
Here's my preferred solution:
Allies seize vault and remove contents, as well as any Vaadwaur corpses recovered from the battlefield. If the Kobali resist, use of lethal force is authorized, but do not fire unless fired upon.
Surviving Vaadwaur from vault are revived and given one of two choices: defect and be resettled, or be regarded and treated as prisoners of war to be interned and properly cared for, and repatriated to the Vaadwaur state upon the cessation of hostilities.
Begin peace negotiations with Eldex. As a gesture of good faith to the Vaadwaur state, transport deceased Vaadwaur to a neutral location and notify the Vaadwaur government. Peace settlement to include reparations from the Kobali.
Naval quarantine of Kobali Prime. No ship gets on or offworld without a thorough search. From now on, the Kobali get no deceased individuals other than ones that have volunteered their own bodies in writing. Lethal force is authorized to maintain the quarantine.
Work on a cure so the Kobali can reproduce normally again.
That was because the Alliance A) Needed the Kobali as proxies
But did they? What do the kobali have to offer the Alliance? They have that one planet they can't even defend without us. They have that one ship that kinda sucks, with a crew so bad (or nonexistant) that zombie!Harry could steal it alone. What did we need them for?
They are damsels in distress that exist only to be rescued. From the consequences of their own actions no less. Instead of letting them dictate terms for said resuce, the Alliance should've rescued the hostages, put the people in charge of that whole funny business on trial for kidnapping and murder, and told the kobali to be good little zombies or fight the vaadwaur themselves.
This. Aside from all other concerns, on a purely practical level the only thing the Kobali provide the Alliance is warm bodies (and not many of those, considering their means of reproduction is unreliable). They're a net drain on our resources.
In contrast, the Vaads are shown kicking Voth and Borg TRIBBLE$. Imagine if we could get them on our side post-Gaul: we could potentially rid ourselves of the Borg for good.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Two of the most interesting points that come from the Maquis about Starfleet are:
After Maxwell was apprehended, it turned out that he was telling the truth all along: Cardassians were carrying weapons to the science station and cargo ships were running with high energy subspace fields that jammed sensors. Picard confronted Gul Macet with the evidence, but Macet simply denied the obvious with a condescending smile, and essentially dared Picard to take the evidence to Starfleet and risk undoing the peace he had just worked so hard to broker. As it turned out, Macet was right: Picard, judging that to tell the truth (even though it would partially redeem Maxwell) could potentially cause more harm than it would repair, decided to let the Cardassians off with a stern warning while suppressing the intelligence on the covert armament of the space station. This decision (which flew in the face of Picard's usual staunch dedication to exposing the truth at all costs) set an ongoing precedent of appeasement towards the Cardassians that would last nearly a decade and create a major rift between the Federation and those who believed that a "peace at any price" policy was a betrayal of Starfleet's basic principles, particularly as they related to the rights of sentient peoples who found themselves trapped by Cardassian aggression.
And...
At the same time, Starfleet was vigilantly but fruitlessly pursuing Eddington, seeking to bring him to justice for his treason. Eddington attacked and disabled both the USS Defiant and the USS Malinche in separate engagements. Thus provoked, Captain Sisko launched his own offensive inside the DMZ, in an attempt to capture Eddington. Sisko attacked the Maquis colony on Solosos III, using trilithium resin to poison the planet's atmosphere and make it uninhabitable for Humans for the next fifty years. Sisko then announced his intention to poison every single Maquis colony in order to end the Maquis threat. Horrified, Eddington turned over the remaining biogenic weapons and surrendered himself to Starfleet in order to prevent such an attack.
The latter here being in response to Eddington's attacks on Cardassian worlds,not Federation one, and one of the reasons Sisko ran off to become the Emissary and live in the wormhole. Because had he not, he would have been arrested, tried, and convicted for this war crime. One of many he committed.
The former, setting the precedent of, bow down to the bad guy. Instead of you know, doing the right thing.
Yup, Starfleet has a real good record about caring for sentient life... as long as it serves their purpose.
Oh... wait... right, it was also Seven of Nine, a member of Voyager's crew, who woke the Vaadwuar up. In which, they just ran off and left this to happen. Because they didn't see any harm in what they did, or see any harm coming from it.
So the entire problem with Kobali and the Vaadwuar, was Starfleet's fault to begin with.
[/s] Yep, I'm seeing a real good track record of Starfleet being the good guys here. [/end_sarcasm]
This was never stated in the canon, though it should've been, but one argument I've seen made not so much in favor of but understanding of how Starfleet handled the end of their first conflict with the Cardassians can be summed up thusly; if Wolf 359 hadn't happened, it would've been very different.
The argument basically goes, while projections were that Starfleet would've ultimately won any war with the Cardassian Union, without those 30+ ships and hundreds of officers lost to the Borg, the conflict would've lasted much longer and with much more death on both sides, civilians included. A fully stocked Starfleet (this is before the pre-Dominion War build up of course) would've put Starfleet in a position of higher strength in the treaty negotiations. They'd still have to give up something, sure, that's how negotiations work, but nothing as extreme as ending up putting hundreds of Federation citizens in hostile territory to get a DMZ that would end up being violated a bunch anyway.
It's not a 1:1 obviously, but modern critics who refer to Wolf 359 as the Federation's 9/11 have a good point.
* Sidenote: It really sucks there's nothing in the canon I'm aware of that says what the Romulans had to give up in exchange for Starfleet giving up cloaking technology.
> @trennan said: > ichaerus1 wrote: » > > jrdobbsjr#3264 wrote: » > > trennan wrote: » > > Only in Star Trek would the good guy bow down and let the hostage holders have heir way. > > > > > That was because the Alliance A) Needed the Kobali as proxies, and The Vaads aren't popular so noone cares. > > If they were sitting on, say, the passengers of a DY-100 from the 21st Century or other Fed citizens.....the Feds would have gone in guns blazing. If they were Romulans or Klingons.....it would have gotten real ugly. > > > > > > Like they did with the Maquis, when the UFP decided to play gift exchange with the Cardassians, regarding planets? > > > > > Another good point here. And when you look it up, you find that the Maquis, who were fighting to free themselves from Cardassian oppression, you find that they were listed as terrorists by Starfleet and the Federation. Even though their attacks on Starfleet vessels was more self-defense than attacks. They never actually attacked Starfleet vessels much. Though they did steal the Defiant at one point. > > Two of the most interesting points that come from the Maquis about Starfleet are: > > After Maxwell was apprehended, it turned out that he was telling the truth all along: Cardassians were carrying weapons to the science station and cargo ships were running with high energy subspace fields that jammed sensors. Picard confronted Gul Macet with the evidence, but Macet simply denied the obvious with a condescending smile, and essentially dared Picard to take the evidence to Starfleet and risk undoing the peace he had just worked so hard to broker. As it turned out, Macet was right: Picard, judging that to tell the truth (even though it would partially redeem Maxwell) could potentially cause more harm than it would repair, decided to let the Cardassians off with a stern warning while suppressing the intelligence on the covert armament of the space station. This decision (which flew in the face of Picard's usual staunch dedication to exposing the truth at all costs) set an ongoing precedent of appeasement towards the Cardassians that would last nearly a decade and create a major rift between the Federation and those who believed that a "peace at any price" policy was a betrayal of Starfleet's basic principles, particularly as they related to the rights of sentient peoples who found themselves trapped by Cardassian aggression. > > And... > > At the same time, Starfleet was vigilantly but fruitlessly pursuing Eddington, seeking to bring him to justice for his treason. Eddington attacked and disabled both the USS Defiant and the USS Malinche in separate engagements. Thus provoked, Captain Sisko launched his own offensive inside the DMZ, in an attempt to capture Eddington. Sisko attacked the Maquis colony on Solosos III, using trilithium resin to poison the planet's atmosphere and make it uninhabitable for Humans for the next fifty years. Sisko then announced his intention to poison every single Maquis colony in order to end the Maquis threat. Horrified, Eddington turned over the remaining biogenic weapons and surrendered himself to Starfleet in order to prevent such an attack. > > The latter here being in response to Eddington's attacks on Cardassian worlds,not Federation one, and one of the reasons Sisko ran off to become the Emissary and live in the wormhole. Because had he not, he would have been arrested, tried, and convicted for this war crime. One of many he committed. > > The former, setting the precedent of, bow down to the bad guy. Instead of you know, doing the right thing. > > Yup, Starfleet has a real good record about caring for sentient life... as long as it serves their purpose. > > Oh... wait... right, it was also Seven of Nine, a member of Voyager's crew, who woke the Vaadwuar up. In which, they just ran off and left this to happen. Because they didn't see any harm in what they did, or see any harm coming from it. > > So the entire problem with Kobali and the Vaadwuar, was Starfleet's fault to begin with. > > [/s] Yep, I'm seeing a real good track record of Starfleet being the good guys here. [/end_sarcasm]
if this is what Starfleet and the Federation have come to......I have to question if they are even worth saving.
Two of the most interesting points that come from the Maquis about Starfleet are:
After Maxwell was apprehended, it turned out that he was telling the truth all along: Cardassians were carrying weapons to the science station and cargo ships were running with high energy subspace fields that jammed sensors. Picard confronted Gul Macet with the evidence, but Macet simply denied the obvious with a condescending smile, and essentially dared Picard to take the evidence to Starfleet and risk undoing the peace he had just worked so hard to broker. As it turned out, Macet was right: Picard, judging that to tell the truth (even though it would partially redeem Maxwell) could potentially cause more harm than it would repair, decided to let the Cardassians off with a stern warning while suppressing the intelligence on the covert armament of the space station.
Picard didn't hide it. He simply chose not to make a diplomatic incident out of it. Why? Maxwell's methodology. Maxwell acquired the information by violating the Neutral zone to look for it. He started by destroying a Cardassian starbase and killing the crew... and apparently got no actionable intel by doing so. So he went after the freighters that he detected headed for it. Apparently he managed to find a ship with weapons in cargo... eventually, after blowing up a Cardassian starbase and two Cardassian ships.
Ironically? The massacre where Maxwell's family got killed was allegedly because the Cardassians though the Feds were prepping for an invasion force.
At the same time, Starfleet was vigilantly but fruitlessly pursuing Eddington, seeking to bring him to justice for his treason. Eddington attacked and disabled both the USS Defiant and the USS Malinche in separate engagements. Thus provoked, Captain Sisko launched his own offensive inside the DMZ, in an attempt to capture Eddington. Sisko attacked the Maquis colony on Solosos III, using trilithium resin to poison the planet's atmosphere and make it uninhabitable for Humans for the next fifty years. Sisko then announced his intention to poison every single Maquis colony in order to end the Maquis threat. Horrified, Eddington turned over the remaining biogenic weapons and surrendered himself to Starfleet in order to prevent such an attack.
The latter here being in response to Eddington's attacks on Cardassian worlds,not Federation one, and one of the reasons Sisko ran off to become the Emissary and live in the wormhole. Because had he not, he would have been arrested, tried, and convicted for this war crime. One of many he committed.
Arrested? No. Sisko's actions didn't kill anyone. Yes, he poisoned the planets... with something carefully chosen to only kill people who stayed in it for hours.
> @trennan said:
> ichaerus1 wrote: »
>
> jrdobbsjr#3264 wrote: »
>
> trennan wrote: »
>
> Only in Star Trek would the good guy bow down and let the hostage holders have heir way.
>
>
>
>
> That was because the Alliance A) Needed the Kobali as proxies, and The Vaads aren't popular so noone cares.
>
> If they were sitting on, say, the passengers of a DY-100 from the 21st Century or other Fed citizens.....the Feds would have gone in guns blazing. If they were Romulans or Klingons.....it would have gotten real ugly.
>
>
>
>
>
> Like they did with the Maquis, when the UFP decided to play gift exchange with the Cardassians, regarding planets?
>
>
>
>
> Another good point here. And when you look it up, you find that the Maquis, who were fighting to free themselves from Cardassian oppression, you find that they were listed as terrorists by Starfleet and the Federation. Even though their attacks on Starfleet vessels was more self-defense than attacks. They never actually attacked Starfleet vessels much. Though they did steal the Defiant at one point.
>
> Two of the most interesting points that come from the Maquis about Starfleet are:
>
> After Maxwell was apprehended, it turned out that he was telling the truth all along: Cardassians were carrying weapons to the science station and cargo ships were running with high energy subspace fields that jammed sensors. Picard confronted Gul Macet with the evidence, but Macet simply denied the obvious with a condescending smile, and essentially dared Picard to take the evidence to Starfleet and risk undoing the peace he had just worked so hard to broker. As it turned out, Macet was right: Picard, judging that to tell the truth (even though it would partially redeem Maxwell) could potentially cause more harm than it would repair, decided to let the Cardassians off with a stern warning while suppressing the intelligence on the covert armament of the space station. This decision (which flew in the face of Picard's usual staunch dedication to exposing the truth at all costs) set an ongoing precedent of appeasement towards the Cardassians that would last nearly a decade and create a major rift between the Federation and those who believed that a "peace at any price" policy was a betrayal of Starfleet's basic principles, particularly as they related to the rights of sentient peoples who found themselves trapped by Cardassian aggression.
>
> And...
>
> At the same time, Starfleet was vigilantly but fruitlessly pursuing Eddington, seeking to bring him to justice for his treason. Eddington attacked and disabled both the USS Defiant and the USS Malinche in separate engagements. Thus provoked, Captain Sisko launched his own offensive inside the DMZ, in an attempt to capture Eddington. Sisko attacked the Maquis colony on Solosos III, using trilithium resin to poison the planet's atmosphere and make it uninhabitable for Humans for the next fifty years. Sisko then announced his intention to poison every single Maquis colony in order to end the Maquis threat. Horrified, Eddington turned over the remaining biogenic weapons and surrendered himself to Starfleet in order to prevent such an attack.
>
> The latter here being in response to Eddington's attacks on Cardassian worlds,not Federation one, and one of the reasons Sisko ran off to become the Emissary and live in the wormhole. Because had he not, he would have been arrested, tried, and convicted for this war crime. One of many he committed.
>
> The former, setting the precedent of, bow down to the bad guy. Instead of you know, doing the right thing.
>
> Yup, Starfleet has a real good record about caring for sentient life... as long as it serves their purpose.
>
> Oh... wait... right, it was also Seven of Nine, a member of Voyager's crew, who woke the Vaadwuar up. In which, they just ran off and left this to happen. Because they didn't see any harm in what they did, or see any harm coming from it.
>
> So the entire problem with Kobali and the Vaadwuar, was Starfleet's fault to begin with.
>
> [/s] Yep, I'm seeing a real good track record of Starfleet being the good guys here. [/end_sarcasm]
if this is what Starfleet and the Federation have come to......I have to question if they are even worth saving.
> @trennan said:
> ichaerus1 wrote: »
>
> jrdobbsjr#3264 wrote: »
>
> trennan wrote: »
>
> Only in Star Trek would the good guy bow down and let the hostage holders have heir way.
>
>
>
>
> That was because the Alliance A) Needed the Kobali as proxies, and The Vaads aren't popular so noone cares.
>
> If they were sitting on, say, the passengers of a DY-100 from the 21st Century or other Fed citizens.....the Feds would have gone in guns blazing. If they were Romulans or Klingons.....it would have gotten real ugly.
>
>
>
>
>
> Like they did with the Maquis, when the UFP decided to play gift exchange with the Cardassians, regarding planets?
>
>
>
>
> Another good point here. And when you look it up, you find that the Maquis, who were fighting to free themselves from Cardassian oppression, you find that they were listed as terrorists by Starfleet and the Federation. Even though their attacks on Starfleet vessels was more self-defense than attacks. They never actually attacked Starfleet vessels much. Though they did steal the Defiant at one point.
>
> Two of the most interesting points that come from the Maquis about Starfleet are:
>
> After Maxwell was apprehended, it turned out that he was telling the truth all along: Cardassians were carrying weapons to the science station and cargo ships were running with high energy subspace fields that jammed sensors. Picard confronted Gul Macet with the evidence, but Macet simply denied the obvious with a condescending smile, and essentially dared Picard to take the evidence to Starfleet and risk undoing the peace he had just worked so hard to broker. As it turned out, Macet was right: Picard, judging that to tell the truth (even though it would partially redeem Maxwell) could potentially cause more harm than it would repair, decided to let the Cardassians off with a stern warning while suppressing the intelligence on the covert armament of the space station. This decision (which flew in the face of Picard's usual staunch dedication to exposing the truth at all costs) set an ongoing precedent of appeasement towards the Cardassians that would last nearly a decade and create a major rift between the Federation and those who believed that a "peace at any price" policy was a betrayal of Starfleet's basic principles, particularly as they related to the rights of sentient peoples who found themselves trapped by Cardassian aggression.
>
> And...
>
> At the same time, Starfleet was vigilantly but fruitlessly pursuing Eddington, seeking to bring him to justice for his treason. Eddington attacked and disabled both the USS Defiant and the USS Malinche in separate engagements. Thus provoked, Captain Sisko launched his own offensive inside the DMZ, in an attempt to capture Eddington. Sisko attacked the Maquis colony on Solosos III, using trilithium resin to poison the planet's atmosphere and make it uninhabitable for Humans for the next fifty years. Sisko then announced his intention to poison every single Maquis colony in order to end the Maquis threat. Horrified, Eddington turned over the remaining biogenic weapons and surrendered himself to Starfleet in order to prevent such an attack.
>
> The latter here being in response to Eddington's attacks on Cardassian worlds,not Federation one, and one of the reasons Sisko ran off to become the Emissary and live in the wormhole. Because had he not, he would have been arrested, tried, and convicted for this war crime. One of many he committed.
>
> The former, setting the precedent of, bow down to the bad guy. Instead of you know, doing the right thing.
>
> Yup, Starfleet has a real good record about caring for sentient life... as long as it serves their purpose.
>
> Oh... wait... right, it was also Seven of Nine, a member of Voyager's crew, who woke the Vaadwuar up. In which, they just ran off and left this to happen. Because they didn't see any harm in what they did, or see any harm coming from it.
>
> So the entire problem with Kobali and the Vaadwuar, was Starfleet's fault to begin with.
>
> [/s] Yep, I'm seeing a real good track record of Starfleet being the good guys here. [/end_sarcasm]
if this is what Starfleet and the Federation have come to......I have to question if they are even worth saving.
I question this every time I sign in. Which is why I play all my characters as freelancer or mercenaries now.
Given that everything is going the Federation's way. One has to stop and think. The Temporal Accords do not happen until the 31st century. Until this time, only Starfleet Department of Temporal Affairs are watching over the timeline. So, how much of current events is from their quietly nudging history in order to make it all come about?
Think about it. For example, you can use time travel to go back and save Earth. But you can't go back in time to prevent say Hobus, or Praxis, or even the Nah'kul sun incident. If you do try to do these, they will be stopped. Why? They strengthen Klingons, Romulans, and remove the Nah'kul's reason for what they do. This doesn't benefit the Federation, therefore it must be stopped at all costs. If it doesn't benefit the Federation, it doesn't happen in the time line.
When you start looking at events as a whole, instead of singularly, and apply some thought to it. Then the Federation starts looking less and less like the good guy here.
Another example of this would be Martok. Who plainly stated, the J'mpok did, in fact, kill him. Now, who is to say that a Temporal Agent didn't remove him from the time line at the moment right before his death, and place a living Martok with Torg. To a dead Martok, it would seems as though Torg revived him. Which, Agents of Yesterday proves they can do this very thing.
Now on this, we look at Kobali and the Vaadwuar. Is it possible that the Vaadwaur could become technoloigcally superior in the mean 40 years since they woke up? Yes, as we don't know what kind of tech they had prior to this. Since there is nothing on memory-alpha here on this. One has to turn to gamepedia, where we find.
In 2376, the U.S.S. Voyager landed on the now-lifeless Vaadwaur homeworld to hide from a Turei patrol. While there, the crew discovered a battalion of Vaadwaur in stasis and Seven of Nine awakened them. While the crew of Voyager initially helped the Vaadwaur start to rebuild, they eventually discovered the nature of the culture they'd revived and were forced to flee before the Vaadwaur could capture their vessel. Several dozen of their ships escaped the planet, disappearing to parts unknown.
So, not only were they a threat to Voyager after being woke up. Voyager even helped them start to rebuild. Which means providing them with some technology. Now add in a simple look at this. Since the Vaadwuar were forced into stasis. This was in Earth's 15th century, or roughly about the same time as the Hur'q attack on Qo'nos. Now, if we look at that information, about the stasis, and Voyager finding the Vaadwuar homeworld. We have Vaadwuar Prime in game. But, then, why would the Vaadwuar be in stasis on Kobali Prime, instead of their home planet, Vaadwuar Prime?
With that information, one can only surmise that the Kobali stole the stasis pods from Vaadwuar Prime and moved them to Kobali Prime. Which, gives the Vaadwuar even more reason to attack the Kobali.
^I'm pretty sure the game says there were Vaadwaur cryo vaults on multiple planets (and realistically that's the only way their current population and fleet numbers make a lick of sense). Voyager found one on Vaadwaur Prime, the Kobali found a different one and settled Kobali Prime to exploit it.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Now on this, we look at Kobali and the Vaadwuar. Is it possible that the Vaadwaur could become technoloigcally superior in the mean 40 years since they woke up? Yes, as we don't know what kind of tech they had prior to this. Since there is nothing on memory-alpha here on this. One has to turn to gamepedia, where we find.
In 2376, the U.S.S. Voyager landed on the now-lifeless Vaadwaur homeworld to hide from a Turei patrol. While there, the crew discovered a battalion of Vaadwaur in stasis and Seven of Nine awakened them. While the crew of Voyager initially helped the Vaadwaur start to rebuild, they eventually discovered the nature of the culture they'd revived and were forced to flee before the Vaadwaur could capture their vessel. Several dozen of their ships escaped the planet, disappearing to parts unknown.
So, not only were they a threat to Voyager after being woke up. Voyager even helped them start to rebuild. Which means providing them with some technology. Now add in a simple look at this. Since the Vaadwuar were forced into stasis. This was in Earth's 15th century, or roughly about the same time as the Hur'q attack on Qo'nos. Now, if we look at that information, about the stasis, and Voyager finding the Vaadwuar homeworld. We have Vaadwuar Prime in game. But, then, why would the Vaadwuar be in stasis on Kobali Prime, instead of their home planet, Vaadwuar Prime?
With that information, one can only surmise that the Kobali stole the stasis pods from Vaadwuar Prime and moved them to Kobali Prime. Which, gives the Vaadwuar even more reason to attack the Kobali.
So who are the good guys here?
The Feds.
See, it's established in Voyager that at their height the Vaads ruled a rather large area, apparently this included Kobali. And in STO it's mentioned that they built stasis pod facilities on pretty much every major planet they controlled. In fact this is the explanation for why there's suddenly millions of them.
Also the Vaadwaur did not have up-to-date tech in Voyager. In STO, this is actually explained as them getting new tech from the Iconians. Yes, Gaul made them an Iconian servitor, much the same as Hakeev did with the Tal Shiar.
Also, this suggests that maybe the Vaadwaur are why the Kobali are zombies now....
He fired a weapon created to only harm certain species and not the planet itself. Thats a Biogenic weapon, such weapons are banned by every known government in Trek with the exception of the Borg, but they aren't a government. Sisko's actions deserved prison time.
It's actually not.
biogenic
[bahy-oh-jen-ik]
adjective
1. resulting from the activity of living organisms, as fermentation.
2. necessary for the life process, as food and water.
Trilithium resin is a chemical waste produced by a warp core, it's not biogenic.
> @markhawkman said:
Arrested? No. Sisko's actions didn't kill anyone. Yes, he poisoned the planets... with something carefully chosen to only kill people who stayed in it for hours.
He fired a weapon created to only harm certain species and not the planet itself. Thats a Biogenic weapon, such weapons are banned by every known government in Trek with the exception of the Borg, but they aren't a government. Sisko's actions deserved prison time.
Might want to re-read that more carefully.... The laws have a clause about lethality. Also the term is a blanket category for anything that effects people but not equipment. Everything from airborne toxins(such as what Sisko used) to the Teplan Blight and Thalaron radiation are categorized as "biogenic" agents. A blanket ban of everything in the category is thus impossible.
Those are not the definition of Biogenic as used by Trek. The definition of a Biogenic Weapon, as defined by TNG is a weapon which harms 1 or more specific species but not others, such weapons are used for exactly the purpose Sisko used, the clear all members of said species from the planet so that it can be occupied by an unaffected species. Additionally in Starship Mine (also TNG, aka Die Hard in Space) it is established that Trilithiun resin is used to make Biogenic weapons. On top of that whether the attack is lethal or not is irrelevant and "blanket bans" may be impossible in real life (they aren't but whatever) but in Trek there is not one mention anywhere in the episode that introduces the Biogenic Ban in canon of any exceptions. Also markhawkman, your precious Memory Alpha specifically lists Trilithium Resin based weapon used by Sisko in For The Uniform as an example of a Biogenic Weapon.
The real question is what Fed law says about the legality of gassing a planet with Trilithium resin. I don't know of a concrete statement of that. There's a basic general thing where Fed captains are supposed to be nice guys, but all they really have to do is file a report explaining why they felt the need to be not-nice.
Comments
My character Tsin'xing
Morally and ethically, by the story line here, the Kobali are the bad guys. They've been desecrating the graves and dead of other species, without permission, just to further their own species. A species, that they admit, did it to themselves. The Second Life is the answer they found for genetically altering their own race to the point of not being able to reproduce any other way.
The Vaadwuar's desire to exterminate them for this is called... justice.
The moral and ethical thing to do here, would have been to let it happen. As the Vaadwuar, and any other species that viewed this heinous act as wrong, are in the right. But Starfleet had to stop justice from being served, under the guise of being the 'good guy'.
But in a great act of appeasement, much the same as Picard and Sisko did with the Cardassians, the Federation sided with the bad guy here. Which, their entire way of life is ILLEGAL in the Federation. Meaning, siding with the Kobali is morally and ethically wrong from the very beginning.
So when Admiral Fish-face tosses the Prime Directive out here, the immediate response that any Starfleet officer that keeps Federation Law in mind, would have been to throw the Bullschit flag on top of that pile. And, you as the player, have no choice by to go along with it, just so that you can further play the arc.
So, this in turns is nothing more than the usual, Starfleet ignoring Federation law, to further their own agenda, all the while trying to sugar coat it with the guise of being the 'good guy'. When, in fact, siding with the Kobali here makes Starfleet the bad guy as well.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Compare for example to Midnight, which was also controversial, but there we are allowed to speak our minds. Even though the conclusion of the mission is fixed (as it must be), our characters are allowed to participate in the discussion that comes to that conclusion.
My character Tsin'xing
Exactly, and that's one more thing i don't like about that storyarc... Despite whatever is tossed at us, we never really get to speak our mind on the matter, and we are basically dragged around till the Kobali formulate vague apologies, then "All is well in the Best of Worlds". Yet this is very one-sided and unsatisfactory in the end, just like the conclusion of the Delta Rising storyarc, actually. We never get to see what happened to the Vaadwaur survivors at the end of the conflict, and they ultimately just come off as mere weekly bad guys to be killed.
Still, if anyone remembers the Voyager episode that featured the Vaadwaur ("Dragon's Teeth"), you should also consider this : if the Voyager crew managed to pull out of this mess, it was primarily thanks to one of the Vaadwaur, namely Gedrin, who had come to sympathize with the crew and opposed his own people's schemes, at the cost of his life.
Honestly, instead of having the totality of the Vaadwaur tossed at us like unredeemable and deceptive warmongers all along, i believe it would have been much more appropriate and Trekkish to witness a fraction of their people being similarly peace-oriented and willing to help the alliance solve the conflict.
> trennan wrote: »
>
> The Vaadwuar's desire to exterminate them for this is called... justice.
>
>
>
> Incorrect. The Vaadwaur would have attacked them anyways. Also the Vaads didn't really care about the guys in storage, more about the guys who were recently shot to death.
The Vaadwaur are technically the aggressors in that clusterphekk, yes. But they really don't do anything totally horrible and out of proportion in that arc, either (Gaul's little temper tantrum happened elsewhere and is on him alone). They noticed the Kobali were converting Vaadwaur battlefield casualties into more Kobali, and they took steps to stop it by vaccinating their troops (which, key point, we the PCs are made to reverse for no good reason). That also led them to the development of a frankly rather precise and humane chemical weapon (kills almost instantly and apparently painlessly, which, compare that to the chlorine, mustard, and phosgene gas that were used in WWI), which they're only shown using against legitimate military targets (enemy ground troops).
Compare that to the kinds of things you can do if you're playing a Klingon, like torturing and murdering prisoners, selling them into slavery, raiding civilian targets.
Let that sink in: viewed objectively, the Vaadwaur do less bad things than ONE OF THE PLAYABLE FACTIONS.
"Justice"? That's pushing it. But the Vaads are perfectly within their rights to not want their people to be turned into Kobali and take steps to prevent it, ESPECIALLY since that means any Vaadwaur who falls in battle can be turned into another enemy soldier: they're an endangered species as it is!
And yeah, they did, in fact, care about the cryo vault: it's explicitly mentioned when the vault is revealed that the Vaads held back because they were worried about killing their own people by accident.
EDIT: Grammar.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
> Also the Vaads didn't really care about the guys in storage, more about the guys who were recently shot to death.
They cannot afford to not care about the Vaarduar in stasis, there isn't all that many of them left.
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I would agree with this, if that's how it went. It's better than what we did though.
I never mentioned participating in genocide. Just not stopping the vaadwuar, who had every right to do what they did.
Especially when the Kobali were holding the vaadwuar in the stasis pods hostage. Even at the end, when this comes to light, and a "peace" is formed. The Kobali are still left holding said hostages. There wasn't even any oversight agreed upon. Just the "promise" that the Kobali would look after the pods that were still functioning.
Only in Star Trek would the good guy bow down and let the hostage holders have heir way.
That was because the Alliance A) Needed the Kobali as proxies, and
If they were sitting on, say, the passengers of a DY-100 from the 21st Century or other Fed citizens.....the Feds would have gone in guns blazing. If they were Romulans or Klingons.....it would have gotten real ugly.
That's what I'm getting at. Had it been Federation citizens, a different outcome would have happened. Meaning, the Federation, and Starfleet, lose their ability to claim the moral high ground after this. "We're the good guys, but only when it applies to our people." If you can't live by your morals on this all the time, with everything you do, you never had them to begin with.
And you're also right. Had the hostages been Klingon or Romulan, we wouldn't be having this conversation. As the highest probability would be, the Kobali would not exist any more. Well, this is more probable with the Klingons here. I'm not sure how the Romulans would react. But, given what one goes through as a Romulan, I would imagine it would be pretty bad. As this would be the same as what the Tal'Shiar and Elachi were doing.
I also do not see Klingons going for this. After their centuries long, if not longer, problem with the Augment Virus. I would imagine they have a very negative view for this kind of thing. I'm personally glad they killed off Kahless, the Useless Clone of Kahless. It was the best thing they did for the Klingons ever. After the Augement Virus, a clone would have been viewed very negatively by most of the Empire. Remember Worf in that one time travel episode that put him and the ridgeless klingons on scree at the same time, and when asked all he replied with was, "We do not speak of it." A clone falls within this, meaning the clone of Kahless is another dark spot, just like the Augment Virus, of Klingon history that they wouldn't want to speak of. My klingon characters do not mention him, If they do, it's generally in a very disgusted manner, and calling him Kahlost, the Clone of Kahless. Because cloning, is where most, if not all genetic modifications begin. Thus, he would be a reminder of the Augement Virus.
My character Tsin'xing
Like they did with the Maquis, when the UFP decided to play gift exchange with the Cardassians, regarding planets?
Another good point here. And when you look it up, you find that the Maquis, who were fighting to free themselves from Cardassian oppression, you find that they were listed as terrorists by Starfleet and the Federation. Even though their attacks on Starfleet vessels was more self-defense than attacks. They never actually attacked Starfleet vessels much. Though they did steal the Defiant at one point.
Two of the most interesting points that come from the Maquis about Starfleet are:
After Maxwell was apprehended, it turned out that he was telling the truth all along: Cardassians were carrying weapons to the science station and cargo ships were running with high energy subspace fields that jammed sensors. Picard confronted Gul Macet with the evidence, but Macet simply denied the obvious with a condescending smile, and essentially dared Picard to take the evidence to Starfleet and risk undoing the peace he had just worked so hard to broker. As it turned out, Macet was right: Picard, judging that to tell the truth (even though it would partially redeem Maxwell) could potentially cause more harm than it would repair, decided to let the Cardassians off with a stern warning while suppressing the intelligence on the covert armament of the space station. This decision (which flew in the face of Picard's usual staunch dedication to exposing the truth at all costs) set an ongoing precedent of appeasement towards the Cardassians that would last nearly a decade and create a major rift between the Federation and those who believed that a "peace at any price" policy was a betrayal of Starfleet's basic principles, particularly as they related to the rights of sentient peoples who found themselves trapped by Cardassian aggression.
And...
At the same time, Starfleet was vigilantly but fruitlessly pursuing Eddington, seeking to bring him to justice for his treason. Eddington attacked and disabled both the USS Defiant and the USS Malinche in separate engagements. Thus provoked, Captain Sisko launched his own offensive inside the DMZ, in an attempt to capture Eddington. Sisko attacked the Maquis colony on Solosos III, using trilithium resin to poison the planet's atmosphere and make it uninhabitable for Humans for the next fifty years. Sisko then announced his intention to poison every single Maquis colony in order to end the Maquis threat. Horrified, Eddington turned over the remaining biogenic weapons and surrendered himself to Starfleet in order to prevent such an attack.
The latter here being in response to Eddington's attacks on Cardassian worlds,not Federation one, and one of the reasons Sisko ran off to become the Emissary and live in the wormhole. Because had he not, he would have been arrested, tried, and convicted for this war crime. One of many he committed.
The former, setting the precedent of, bow down to the bad guy. Instead of you know, doing the right thing.
Yup, Starfleet has a real good record about caring for sentient life... as long as it serves their purpose.
Oh... wait... right, it was also Seven of Nine, a member of Voyager's crew, who woke the Vaadwuar up. In which, they just ran off and left this to happen. Because they didn't see any harm in what they did, or see any harm coming from it.
So the entire problem with Kobali and the Vaadwuar, was Starfleet's fault to begin with.
[/s] Yep, I'm seeing a real good track record of Starfleet being the good guys here. [/end_sarcasm]
They are damsels in distress that exist only to be rescued. From the consequences of their own actions no less. Instead of letting them dictate terms for said resuce, the Alliance should've rescued the hostages, put the people in charge of that whole funny business on trial for kidnapping and murder, and told the kobali to be good little zombies or fight the vaadwaur themselves.
Theres no honor in killing the cryostasis podded Vaads (especially as the evidence points they were doctors, scientists, ect) nor is there honor in a cowardly murder by neglect even if its for species propogation - As to the issue of the vaccine; that would be left to them to fight over - dead bodies technically being the spoils of war in this case it is down to either side to them to ensure viability/prevent their use
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Here's my preferred solution:
This. Aside from all other concerns, on a purely practical level the only thing the Kobali provide the Alliance is warm bodies (and not many of those, considering their means of reproduction is unreliable). They're a net drain on our resources.
In contrast, the Vaads are shown kicking Voth and Borg TRIBBLE$. Imagine if we could get them on our side post-Gaul: we could potentially rid ourselves of the Borg for good.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
This was never stated in the canon, though it should've been, but one argument I've seen made not so much in favor of but understanding of how Starfleet handled the end of their first conflict with the Cardassians can be summed up thusly; if Wolf 359 hadn't happened, it would've been very different.
The argument basically goes, while projections were that Starfleet would've ultimately won any war with the Cardassian Union, without those 30+ ships and hundreds of officers lost to the Borg, the conflict would've lasted much longer and with much more death on both sides, civilians included. A fully stocked Starfleet (this is before the pre-Dominion War build up of course) would've put Starfleet in a position of higher strength in the treaty negotiations. They'd still have to give up something, sure, that's how negotiations work, but nothing as extreme as ending up putting hundreds of Federation citizens in hostile territory to get a DMZ that would end up being violated a bunch anyway.
It's not a 1:1 obviously, but modern critics who refer to Wolf 359 as the Federation's 9/11 have a good point.
* Sidenote: It really sucks there's nothing in the canon I'm aware of that says what the Romulans had to give up in exchange for Starfleet giving up cloaking technology.
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> ichaerus1 wrote: »
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> jrdobbsjr#3264 wrote: »
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> trennan wrote: »
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> Only in Star Trek would the good guy bow down and let the hostage holders have heir way.
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> That was because the Alliance A) Needed the Kobali as proxies, and
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> If they were sitting on, say, the passengers of a DY-100 from the 21st Century or other Fed citizens.....the Feds would have gone in guns blazing. If they were Romulans or Klingons.....it would have gotten real ugly.
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> Like they did with the Maquis, when the UFP decided to play gift exchange with the Cardassians, regarding planets?
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> Another good point here. And when you look it up, you find that the Maquis, who were fighting to free themselves from Cardassian oppression, you find that they were listed as terrorists by Starfleet and the Federation. Even though their attacks on Starfleet vessels was more self-defense than attacks. They never actually attacked Starfleet vessels much. Though they did steal the Defiant at one point.
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> Two of the most interesting points that come from the Maquis about Starfleet are:
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> After Maxwell was apprehended, it turned out that he was telling the truth all along: Cardassians were carrying weapons to the science station and cargo ships were running with high energy subspace fields that jammed sensors. Picard confronted Gul Macet with the evidence, but Macet simply denied the obvious with a condescending smile, and essentially dared Picard to take the evidence to Starfleet and risk undoing the peace he had just worked so hard to broker. As it turned out, Macet was right: Picard, judging that to tell the truth (even though it would partially redeem Maxwell) could potentially cause more harm than it would repair, decided to let the Cardassians off with a stern warning while suppressing the intelligence on the covert armament of the space station. This decision (which flew in the face of Picard's usual staunch dedication to exposing the truth at all costs) set an ongoing precedent of appeasement towards the Cardassians that would last nearly a decade and create a major rift between the Federation and those who believed that a "peace at any price" policy was a betrayal of Starfleet's basic principles, particularly as they related to the rights of sentient peoples who found themselves trapped by Cardassian aggression.
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> And...
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> At the same time, Starfleet was vigilantly but fruitlessly pursuing Eddington, seeking to bring him to justice for his treason. Eddington attacked and disabled both the USS Defiant and the USS Malinche in separate engagements. Thus provoked, Captain Sisko launched his own offensive inside the DMZ, in an attempt to capture Eddington. Sisko attacked the Maquis colony on Solosos III, using trilithium resin to poison the planet's atmosphere and make it uninhabitable for Humans for the next fifty years. Sisko then announced his intention to poison every single Maquis colony in order to end the Maquis threat. Horrified, Eddington turned over the remaining biogenic weapons and surrendered himself to Starfleet in order to prevent such an attack.
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> The latter here being in response to Eddington's attacks on Cardassian worlds,not Federation one, and one of the reasons Sisko ran off to become the Emissary and live in the wormhole. Because had he not, he would have been arrested, tried, and convicted for this war crime. One of many he committed.
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> The former, setting the precedent of, bow down to the bad guy. Instead of you know, doing the right thing.
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> Yup, Starfleet has a real good record about caring for sentient life... as long as it serves their purpose.
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> Oh... wait... right, it was also Seven of Nine, a member of Voyager's crew, who woke the Vaadwuar up. In which, they just ran off and left this to happen. Because they didn't see any harm in what they did, or see any harm coming from it.
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> So the entire problem with Kobali and the Vaadwuar, was Starfleet's fault to begin with.
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> [/s] Yep, I'm seeing a real good track record of Starfleet being the good guys here. [/end_sarcasm]
if this is what Starfleet and the Federation have come to......I have to question if they are even worth saving.
Ironically? The massacre where Maxwell's family got killed was allegedly because the Cardassians though the Feds were prepping for an invasion force. Arrested? No. Sisko's actions didn't kill anyone. Yes, he poisoned the planets... with something carefully chosen to only kill people who stayed in it for hours.
My character Tsin'xing
I question this every time I sign in. Which is why I play all my characters as freelancer or mercenaries now.
Given that everything is going the Federation's way. One has to stop and think. The Temporal Accords do not happen until the 31st century. Until this time, only Starfleet Department of Temporal Affairs are watching over the timeline. So, how much of current events is from their quietly nudging history in order to make it all come about?
Think about it. For example, you can use time travel to go back and save Earth. But you can't go back in time to prevent say Hobus, or Praxis, or even the Nah'kul sun incident. If you do try to do these, they will be stopped. Why? They strengthen Klingons, Romulans, and remove the Nah'kul's reason for what they do. This doesn't benefit the Federation, therefore it must be stopped at all costs. If it doesn't benefit the Federation, it doesn't happen in the time line.
When you start looking at events as a whole, instead of singularly, and apply some thought to it. Then the Federation starts looking less and less like the good guy here.
Another example of this would be Martok. Who plainly stated, the J'mpok did, in fact, kill him. Now, who is to say that a Temporal Agent didn't remove him from the time line at the moment right before his death, and place a living Martok with Torg. To a dead Martok, it would seems as though Torg revived him. Which, Agents of Yesterday proves they can do this very thing.
Now on this, we look at Kobali and the Vaadwuar. Is it possible that the Vaadwaur could become technoloigcally superior in the mean 40 years since they woke up? Yes, as we don't know what kind of tech they had prior to this. Since there is nothing on memory-alpha here on this. One has to turn to gamepedia, where we find.
In 2376, the U.S.S. Voyager landed on the now-lifeless Vaadwaur homeworld to hide from a Turei patrol. While there, the crew discovered a battalion of Vaadwaur in stasis and Seven of Nine awakened them. While the crew of Voyager initially helped the Vaadwaur start to rebuild, they eventually discovered the nature of the culture they'd revived and were forced to flee before the Vaadwaur could capture their vessel. Several dozen of their ships escaped the planet, disappearing to parts unknown.
So, not only were they a threat to Voyager after being woke up. Voyager even helped them start to rebuild. Which means providing them with some technology. Now add in a simple look at this. Since the Vaadwuar were forced into stasis. This was in Earth's 15th century, or roughly about the same time as the Hur'q attack on Qo'nos. Now, if we look at that information, about the stasis, and Voyager finding the Vaadwuar homeworld. We have Vaadwuar Prime in game. But, then, why would the Vaadwuar be in stasis on Kobali Prime, instead of their home planet, Vaadwuar Prime?
With that information, one can only surmise that the Kobali stole the stasis pods from Vaadwuar Prime and moved them to Kobali Prime. Which, gives the Vaadwuar even more reason to attack the Kobali.
So who are the good guys here?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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See, it's established in Voyager that at their height the Vaads ruled a rather large area, apparently this included Kobali. And in STO it's mentioned that they built stasis pod facilities on pretty much every major planet they controlled. In fact this is the explanation for why there's suddenly millions of them.
Also the Vaadwaur did not have up-to-date tech in Voyager. In STO, this is actually explained as them getting new tech from the Iconians. Yes, Gaul made them an Iconian servitor, much the same as Hakeev did with the Tal Shiar.
Also, this suggests that maybe the Vaadwaur are why the Kobali are zombies now....
My character Tsin'xing
Trilithium resin is a chemical waste produced by a warp core, it's not biogenic.
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing