> @ashstorm1 said: > Actually, i did not pull the "IDIC" argument to defend the Kobali's point of view here.
Yeah, somebody else did earlier, though; your post just reminded me to mention that.
> @ashstorm1 said: > It was on the contrary to emit the idea that there are "infinite realities" out there, including some where roles could very well be reversed (coughs *Mirror Universe* coughs), and where the Kobali would turn out to be religious freaks bent on taking entire planets by force and assimilating their population under the pretext of "saving their souls", yet really just for the sake of perpetuating their own species...
Hang on, was it you who wrote that Foundry series "Delta Mirror" with the Kobali Sovereignty? I played the first mission and really enjoyed it.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
My issue with the arc (other than general lack of agency) was with the end of the episode where the admiral justified inaction because of the prime directive because;
1) we're fighting a war on their behalf. The PD's already gone out the window.
2)My Orion (or Romulan) doesn't care one whit about the PD.
In all seriousness, wasn't there already an episode in Voyager that dealt with a people that sends their dead/dying through a wormhole/something to an asteroid field?
Why didn't the Kobali set up there? I'm pretty sure that those people would have viewed the Kobali's rebirth as the new life or whatever part of their religion that made them do it.
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
The Kobali say that normally, they don't remember their former life. And that seems to make sense to me. I doubt that every Vaadwaur Kobali would be willing to engage in war against their own people automatically.
Humans seem to be the ones that cause trouble in the process, for whatever reason. Maybe there are other species that have the same problem, but they are clearly not the normal case.
Apparantly the virus works as intended on Delta Quadrant species, only a handful of them retain their memories and need to be tracked down and "re-educated".
With humans, while the statistical sample is tiny (two people), the 100% memory retention rate so far likely heralds a trend. The question is, is this unique to humans, or would other Beta Quadrant species...in this case the Klingons...react similarly? If Kobalified Klingons lose their memories as intended....there will be no issue. But what would happen if Klingons retain their memories just like humans do?
A Klingon who dies in circumstances that should have gotten them into Stovakor instead wakes up to find he is still in the mortal world, his body has been genetically altered and a bunch of Kobali are there insisting he renounces his Klingon heritage and take a new name and be a Kobali. Somehow I don't think that's going to end with sunshine and rainbows. More likely, it will follow the general path that Harry Kim took when they revived him.....just with less running and more violence.
What I believe would happen is said Klingon would escape by any means necessary, and try to get home, to his people (the Klingons) and demand vengeance for what has been done to him. This Klingon's dilemma is going to force a philosophical debate once it becomes known....if only to determine how to respond.
And the whole "soul" thing is pretty much just belief. Even if he had 100 % identical memories there is nothing to prove that the people share a soul, because there pretty much is nothing you can prove about souls in the first place. And in Star Trek, memory transfer techniques certainly exist.
The closest to something provable we might have would be Vulcan katras, but even there we cannot be sure. At the end of Wrath of Khan, Spock allegedly gave his katra to McCoy already when he talks to Kirk. Is a soulless Spock speaking to him, and we're just seeing at some kindof automaton? Or is the katra in two places at once? Or is the katra in McCoy a copy? And there is no indication that Humans or Klingons have a katra.
Just because you cannot "prove" a soul exists doesn't mean they don't. Klingons believe that souls exist....their concept of the Afterlife makes that plain as day....so their Faith provides all the proof they need. Genetic analysis should show that the individual before them is who they claim to be, albeit radically genetically altered. If they retain thier memories, they should be able to convince investigators, no doubt assisted by telepaths, that at minimum they are telling what they believe to be the truth, and in the best case, vindicate their claim completely.
And then, we're back to my question.....what would the Empire do about it?
We do have one example in STO of a slain Klingon being revived....Martok. His wife, upon learning of the situation, immediately ordered a rescue attempt, with the expectation that once Martok was rescued, a vendetta against whoever was responsible would commence. If you're a KDF toon, Jm'Pok himself orders you to help House Martok get him back, presumably to demonstrate his own innocence in the affair. Once freed, and vengeance was gained, Martok took up his duties as a KDF officer and leader of his House, and maintained a tense truce with Jm'Pok.
When presented with a Klingon involuntarily revived, Klingon society...led by one of his main enemies...closed ranks around Martok and dealt harshly with the offender. Granted, Torg was already a Traitor and an outcast....but it is a example of how they might react in similar situations, as well as a precedent.
I believe that in the course of the Klingons evaluating such a claim a philosophical debate on what happens to a Klingon's soul in this situation would be sparked. If Kobalification created a new person with their own soul, then no action would need to be taken, as the former occupant of the body was (hopefully) in Stovakor and unaffected. But if they decide that this is the same person, revived by technological means against their will, then a response will have to be made. Most likely, due to political considerations, the affected individual would be accepted as who they claim to be and the Kobali would be told to pound sand....and warned to stop provoking the Empire by Kobalifying Klingon corpses, but it could get ugly in the right circumstances.
In all seriousness, wasn't there already an episode in Voyager that dealt with a people that sends their dead/dying through a wormhole/something to an asteroid field?
Why didn't the Kobali set up there? I'm pretty sure that those people would have viewed the Kobali's rebirth as the new life or whatever part of their religion that made them do it.
There was a lot of space between the two groups. The Kobali were encountered on the opposite side of Borg space, so a good 12 years at Warp 9 away from where the people from the episode you're talking about are.
> @ashstorm1 said:
> It was on the contrary to emit the idea that there are "infinite realities" out there, including some where roles could very well be reversed (coughs *Mirror Universe* coughs), and where the Kobali would turn out to be religious freaks bent on taking entire planets by force and assimilating their population under the pretext of "saving their souls", yet really just for the sake of perpetuating their own species...
Hang on, was it you who wrote that Foundry series "Delta Mirror" with the Kobali Sovereignty? I played the first mission and really enjoyed it.
Yes, that's me ! Part II (ST-HQ3SJN2YW) and III (ST-HD92ZCDFQ) are now available as well under the non-spotlight content, although they're plagued by the "no reward" bug that seemed to have affected a number of Foundry missions recently.
In all seriousness, wasn't there already an episode in Voyager that dealt with a people that sends their dead/dying through a wormhole/something to an asteroid field?
Why didn't the Kobali set up there? I'm pretty sure that those people would have viewed the Kobali's rebirth as the new life or whatever part of their religion that made them do it.
There was a lot of space between the two groups. The Kobali were encountered on the opposite side of Borg space, so a good 12 years at Warp 9 away from where the people from the episode you're talking about are.
Also that other race's version of burial somehow mineralized the corpses.
In all seriousness, wasn't there already an episode in Voyager that dealt with a people that sends their dead/dying through a wormhole/something to an asteroid field?
Why didn't the Kobali set up there? I'm pretty sure that those people would have viewed the Kobali's rebirth as the new life or whatever part of their religion that made them do it.
There was a lot of space between the two groups. The Kobali were encountered on the opposite side of Borg space, so a good 12 years at Warp 9 away from where the people from the episode you're talking about are.
For people who were apparently nomads, I doubt that would be a problem. Actually learning about the body dump, on the other hand...
The Kobali say that normally, they don't remember their former life. And that seems to make sense to me. I doubt that every Vaadwaur Kobali would be willing to engage in war against their own people automatically.
Humans seem to be the ones that cause trouble in the process, for whatever reason. Maybe there are other species that have the same problem, but they are clearly not the normal case.
Apparantly the virus works as intended on Delta Quadrant species, only a handful of them retain their memories and need to be tracked down and "re-educated".
With humans, while the statistical sample is tiny (two people), the 100% memory retention rate so far likely heralds a trend. The question is, is this unique to humans, or would other Beta Quadrant species...in this case the Klingons...react similarly? If Kobalified Klingons lose their memories as intended....there will be no issue. But what would happen if Klingons retain their memories just like humans do?
A Klingon who dies in circumstances that should have gotten them into Stovakor instead wakes up to find he is still in the mortal world, his body has been genetically altered and a bunch of Kobali are there insisting he renounces his Klingon heritage and take a new name and be a Kobali. Somehow I don't think that's going to end with sunshine and rainbows. More likely, it will follow the general path that Harry Kim took when they revived him.....just with less running and more violence.
What I believe would happen is said Klingon would escape by any means necessary, and try to get home, to his people (the Klingons) and demand vengeance for what has been done to him. This Klingon's dilemma is going to force a philosophical debate once it becomes known....if only to determine how to respond.
I never bought that "humans are speshul" handwave to begin with, because of the events of the Kobalis' debut TV episode. In "Ashes to Ashes" Lyndsay Ballard's self-proclaimed "father" is able to get two military vessels to come chasing after her when she makes her escape... to Voyager, a ship that is moving fast across the Delta Quadrant and fairly regularly jumps hundreds or thousands of light-years. That speaks to a legally backed procedure (because otherwise Daddy-o is misusing government resources at a minimum, and depending on the circumstances might also be guilty of barratry, desertion, and/or improper hazarding of a vessel), and organizations don't tend to develop a response procedure of that nature unless something happens (or can be predicted to happen) with some significant regularity.
In other words, it can't possibly be a problem they've only ever had with humans. An alternative suggestion, that is more likely given the habitual dishonesty and secrecy displayed by the Kobali, is that they've covered up past instances.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
They certainly could be lying about that.....it's not like they haven't lied about nearly everything else. If you're right....and Kobalification doesn't erase memories reliably or at all....then a incident of some sort is inevitable once they Kobalify the wrong Klingon.
> @ashstorm1 said:
> It was on the contrary to emit the idea that there are "infinite realities" out there, including some where roles could very well be reversed (coughs *Mirror Universe* coughs), and where the Kobali would turn out to be religious freaks bent on taking entire planets by force and assimilating their population under the pretext of "saving their souls", yet really just for the sake of perpetuating their own species...
Hang on, was it you who wrote that Foundry series "Delta Mirror" with the Kobali Sovereignty? I played the first mission and really enjoyed it.
Yes, that's me ! Part II (ST-HQ3SJN2YW) and III (ST-HD92ZCDFQ) are now available as well under the non-spotlight content, although they're plagued by the "no reward" bug that seemed to have affected a number of Foundry missions recently.
Yeah, I saw that bug thread. Really hoping it gets fixed, soon.
I recommended your mission to a friend, and he basically said the Mirror Kobali are just the Prime Kobali minus the pretense.
They certainly could be lying about that.....it's not like they haven't lied about nearly everything else. If you're right....and Kobalification doesn't erase memories reliably or at all....then a incident of some sort is inevitable once they Kobalify the wrong Klingon.
In a fanfic, I took the easy route and blamed it on perimortem brain damage: i.e. how fresh and complete the decedent's brain is before conversion determines how much if anything they remember from their previous life. That the only two (known) human-Kobali both remembered is a coincidence made public by the fact there are third-party records of the incidents.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Clearly, Klingons are the only species with “souls” in the 24th century. If a Klingon was Kobalified it would probably result in an internal battle between the soul of the Klingon Warrior and the Kobali seeking birth. If the Klingon won his or her soul would be expelled from Stovokor and rejoin the living, if it lost, by some off chance or trickery, then the Klingon would remain in Stovokor.
No, on this one, if a klingon was given the Second Life, or kobalified as you put it. They would just perform Mauk-to'vor, ritual suicide, and return to death. Doing so would also likely draw the attention of the klingon Empire, and the Kobali thought the Vaadwuar were bad. If this angered the klingons, they would not stop until the Kobali were eradicated.
Which, I'm all down for the eradication of space zombies. I agreed with the vaadwuar here. The kobali needed to be exterminated.
Clearly, Klingons are the only species with “souls” in the 24th century. If a Klingon was Kobalified it would probably result in an internal battle between the soul of the Klingon Warrior and the Kobali seeking birth. If the Klingon won his or her soul would be expelled from Stovokor and rejoin the living, if it lost, by some off chance or trickery, then the Klingon would remain in Stovokor.
No, on this one, if a klingon was given the Second Life, or kobalified as you put it. They would just perform Mauk-to'vor, ritual suicide, and return to death.
Probably not the Mauk-to'vor. That requires a sibling do the actual killing, so they'd have to first escape and convince one of their siblings (assuming they have any) of what happened and that they're truly who they claim to be.
The Hegh'bat wouldn't work either, that requires them be a burden who can no longer live as a warrior and also requires another to participate (usually family).
I think it's most likely they'd be killed during the escape attempt, with the Klingons never learning and continuing to remember their first death as if it was their only one.
Clearly, Klingons are the only species with “souls” in the 24th century. If a Klingon was Kobalified it would probably result in an internal battle between the soul of the Klingon Warrior and the Kobali seeking birth. If the Klingon won his or her soul would be expelled from Stovokor and rejoin the living, if it lost, by some off chance or trickery, then the Klingon would remain in Stovokor.
No, on this one, if a klingon was given the Second Life, or kobalified as you put it. They would just perform Mauk-to'vor, ritual suicide, and return to death.
Probably not the Mauk-to'vor. That requires a sibling do the actual killing, so they'd have to first escape and convince one of their siblings (assuming they have any) of what happened and that they're truly who they claim to be.
The Hegh'bat wouldn't work either, that requires them be a burden who can no longer live as a warrior and also requires another to participate (usually family).
I think it's most likely they'd be killed during the escape attempt, with the Klingons never learning and continuing to remember their first death as if it was their only one.
No the hegh'bat would work. As it doesn't require a sibling, just a second. And well, I'm pretty sure that any of the vaadwuar would have been willing to hand them a knife to kill themselves with.
So this one has a bit of leeway. Such as Worf asking Riker to help with it, when Worf was paralyzed. This would be the more battle field version of Mauk-to'Vor. Otherwise, yes, it would normally fall to a family member to help with it, preferably the oldest son.
I would imagine everyone's talking specifically about a hypothetical scenario where the Klingons believed that the Kobali's acts were affecting their chances of reaching Sto'Vo'Kor after death.
Klingons? the same group who are famous for treating corpses as garbage?
Only sometimes. Other times there's a whole slew of rituals they have to go through to ensure the soul passes to Sto'vo'kor properly.
(Hell, in the Klingon storyline in this game, we're involved in bringing M'ven, son of Drex back home to the Martok Estate for his funeral after Torg's boys murder him at the bat'leth tournament.)
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
In a fanfic, I took the easy route and blamed it on perimortem brain damage: i.e. how fresh and complete the decedent's brain is before conversion determines how much if anything they remember from their previous life. That the only two (known) human-Kobali both remembered is a coincidence made public by the fact there are third-party records of the incidents.
Harry had died by being exposed to hard vacuum and floated about in space for years before Ballard found him. There would only have been a desiccated husk remaining....Shepard in ME2 at least was inside a hard suit when that happened to him.
Clearly, Klingons are the only species with “souls” in the 24th century. If a Klingon was Kobalified it would probably result in an internal battle between the soul of the Klingon Warrior and the Kobali seeking birth. If the Klingon won his or her soul would be expelled from Stovokor and rejoin the living, if it lost, by some off chance or trickery, then the Klingon would remain in Stovokor.
No, on this one, if a klingon was given the Second Life, or kobalified as you put it. They would just perform Mauk-to'vor, ritual suicide, and return to death. Doing so would also likely draw the attention of the klingon Empire, and the Kobali thought the Vaadwuar were bad. If this angered the klingons, they would not stop until the Kobali were eradicated.
Which, I'm all down for the eradication of space zombies. I agreed with the vaadwuar here. The kobali needed to be exterminated.
The nature of a Klingon response would likely depend on the exact circumstances.....if the Kobali had gotten permission to re-purpose the dead Warrior(s) they would respond differently than if one or more of their people just return out of the blue claiming they are Klingon warriors known to be KIA and manage to prove it.
If I were the Kobali, I'd leave Klingons alone and hire a quality PR firm in the Federation to launch a campaign looking for volunteers for a "second Life". The main problem would be screening out the folks who were planning to just go back to Earth/wherever once revived and take up their previous lives instead of playing ball.
If I were a Ferengi, I'd hire Nausicans or perhaps ex Tal'Shiar gone merc to get me a supply of that virus and become rich beyond my wildest dreams Kobalifying rich humans.
The storyline may resolve to make the kobali look like the good guys...not so much with what they did but more so by making the leader of the vaadies into a complete loon...but while playing the mission, I had to keep asking myself, exactly how many times do I have to get lied to before I get the nuke the planet from orbit option again? Because really, I just wanted to kill em all with the entire delta quad pretty much by the time I went through that arc. DR was some of the worst done content in this game.
I disagree with that. Aside from the Kobali BS, I enjoyed most of the DR story. It certainly wasn't without flaws, though -- the writing was too Fed-centric, for one thing (why is my Romulan complaining that tricking their allies into closer cooperation is a bad thing?).
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
> @azrael605 said: > > @starswordc said: > > I disagree with that. Aside from the Kobali BS, I enjoyed most of the DR story. It certainly wasn't without flaws, though -- the writing was too Fed-centric, for one thing (why is my Romulan complaining that tricking their allies into closer cooperation is a bad thing?). > > Possibly because they respect what D'Tan showed them on Mol'Rihan and agree with what he told the Tal Shiar representative (Rom Rep T1 video) that the Romulan people need to stay out of the shadows.
Race ≠ politics. The Romulan Republic is far from an ideological monolith, and just because a Rihanha flies the Raptor instead of the Eagle-and-Globes doesn't mean they're going to automatically agree with the beliefs of their head of state. I would have liked to have had the option to play Morgan t'Thavrau the way I envisioned her, i.e. a wee bit of a conservative who doesn't want to dump EVERYTHING about the old empire (she's not a Unificationist).
Besides, in context D'Tan was rebuking Tal'Shiar Lady for trying to subvert him to Tal'Shiar objectives, wanting to be the "power behind the throne" so to speak. He's actually quite a shrewd politician in his own right.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
In a fanfic, I took the easy route and blamed it on perimortem brain damage: i.e. how fresh and complete the decedent's brain is before conversion determines how much if anything they remember from their previous life. That the only two (known) human-Kobali both remembered is a coincidence made public by the fact there are third-party records of the incidents.
Harry had died by being exposed to hard vacuum and floated about in space for years before Ballard found him. There would only have been a desiccated husk remaining....Shepard in ME2 at least was inside a hard suit when that happened to him.
Clearly, Klingons are the only species with “souls” in the 24th century. If a Klingon was Kobalified it would probably result in an internal battle between the soul of the Klingon Warrior and the Kobali seeking birth. If the Klingon won his or her soul would be expelled from Stovokor and rejoin the living, if it lost, by some off chance or trickery, then the Klingon would remain in Stovokor.
No, on this one, if a klingon was given the Second Life, or kobalified as you put it. They would just perform Mauk-to'vor, ritual suicide, and return to death. Doing so would also likely draw the attention of the klingon Empire, and the Kobali thought the Vaadwuar were bad. If this angered the klingons, they would not stop until the Kobali were eradicated.
Which, I'm all down for the eradication of space zombies. I agreed with the vaadwuar here. The kobali needed to be exterminated.
The nature of a Klingon response would likely depend on the exact circumstances.....if the Kobali had gotten permission to re-purpose the dead Warrior(s) they would respond differently than if one or more of their people just return out of the blue claiming they are Klingon warriors known to be KIA and manage to prove it.
If I were the Kobali, I'd leave Klingons alone and hire a quality PR firm in the Federation to launch a campaign looking for volunteers for a "second Life". The main problem would be screening out the folks who were planning to just go back to Earth/wherever once revived and take up their previous lives instead of playing ball.
If I were a Ferengi, I'd hire Nausicans or perhaps ex Tal'Shiar gone merc to get me a supply of that virus and become rich beyond my wildest dreams Kobalifying rich humans.
Why only Ferengi? What about other enterprising races? Hire a nova hot xenobiologist team, have them modify the virus to work on the living as well, to change them into a race of your choosing. Keep it for yourself.
> @ichaerus1 said: > Why only Ferengi? What about other enterprising races? Hire a nova hot xenobiologist team, have them modify the virus to work on the living as well, to change them into a race of your choosing. Keep it for yourself.
Because the "sunshine and unicorns" human society have pretty much had that bred out of them.....there aren't any Harrt Mudds in the 25th century, sharp practice is delegated to outsiders like the Ferengi. But in truth, it could be dreamed up by anybody.
As far as the rest, more work than necessary, and the cost to re-engineer the virus would be astronomical, which cuts into the profit margin. The goal is maximum profit from the Fed 1% until the Fed PC Patrol shuts you down......the Kobali virus works as intended, and is safe to use so why change it?
And keep it for yourself alone? Why? Do you have any idea how much the rich will pay to double their lifespans....without the hassle of Kobali sending fleets after you to bring you "home"?
> @ichaerus1 said:
> Why only Ferengi? What about other enterprising races? Hire a nova hot xenobiologist team, have them modify the virus to work on the living as well, to change them into a race of your choosing. Keep it for yourself.
Because the "sunshine and unicorns" human society have pretty much had that bred out of them.....there aren't any Harrt Mudds in the 25th century, sharp practice is delegated to outsiders like the Ferengi. But in truth, it could be dreamed up by anybody.
As far as the rest, more work than necessary, and the cost to re-engineer the virus would be astronomical, which cuts into the profit margin. The goal is maximum profit from the Fed 1% until the Fed PC Patrol shuts you down......the Kobali virus works as intended, and is safe to use so why change it?
And keep it for yourself alone? Why? Do you have any idea how much the rich will pay to double their lifespans....without the hassle of Kobali sending fleets after you to bring you "home"?
The interesting thing is that the Federation has seen mutagenic viruses enough that they could probably MAKE one from scratch if they wanted. BUT the Federation has decided it's unethical or something and consider it a crime.
Comments
> Actually, i did not pull the "IDIC" argument to defend the Kobali's point of view here.
Yeah, somebody else did earlier, though; your post just reminded me to mention that.
> @ashstorm1 said:
> It was on the contrary to emit the idea that there are "infinite realities" out there, including some where roles could very well be reversed (coughs *Mirror Universe* coughs), and where the Kobali would turn out to be religious freaks bent on taking entire planets by force and assimilating their population under the pretext of "saving their souls", yet really just for the sake of perpetuating their own species...
Hang on, was it you who wrote that Foundry series "Delta Mirror" with the Kobali Sovereignty? I played the first mission and really enjoyed it.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
1) we're fighting a war on their behalf. The PD's already gone out the window.
2)My Orion (or Romulan) doesn't care one whit about the PD.
Why didn't the Kobali set up there? I'm pretty sure that those people would have viewed the Kobali's rebirth as the new life or whatever part of their religion that made them do it.
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
Apparantly the virus works as intended on Delta Quadrant species, only a handful of them retain their memories and need to be tracked down and "re-educated".
With humans, while the statistical sample is tiny (two people), the 100% memory retention rate so far likely heralds a trend. The question is, is this unique to humans, or would other Beta Quadrant species...in this case the Klingons...react similarly? If Kobalified Klingons lose their memories as intended....there will be no issue. But what would happen if Klingons retain their memories just like humans do?
A Klingon who dies in circumstances that should have gotten them into Stovakor instead wakes up to find he is still in the mortal world, his body has been genetically altered and a bunch of Kobali are there insisting he renounces his Klingon heritage and take a new name and be a Kobali. Somehow I don't think that's going to end with sunshine and rainbows. More likely, it will follow the general path that Harry Kim took when they revived him.....just with less running and more violence.
What I believe would happen is said Klingon would escape by any means necessary, and try to get home, to his people (the Klingons) and demand vengeance for what has been done to him. This Klingon's dilemma is going to force a philosophical debate once it becomes known....if only to determine how to respond.
Just because you cannot "prove" a soul exists doesn't mean they don't. Klingons believe that souls exist....their concept of the Afterlife makes that plain as day....so their Faith provides all the proof they need. Genetic analysis should show that the individual before them is who they claim to be, albeit radically genetically altered. If they retain thier memories, they should be able to convince investigators, no doubt assisted by telepaths, that at minimum they are telling what they believe to be the truth, and in the best case, vindicate their claim completely.
And then, we're back to my question.....what would the Empire do about it?
We do have one example in STO of a slain Klingon being revived....Martok. His wife, upon learning of the situation, immediately ordered a rescue attempt, with the expectation that once Martok was rescued, a vendetta against whoever was responsible would commence. If you're a KDF toon, Jm'Pok himself orders you to help House Martok get him back, presumably to demonstrate his own innocence in the affair. Once freed, and vengeance was gained, Martok took up his duties as a KDF officer and leader of his House, and maintained a tense truce with Jm'Pok.
When presented with a Klingon involuntarily revived, Klingon society...led by one of his main enemies...closed ranks around Martok and dealt harshly with the offender. Granted, Torg was already a Traitor and an outcast....but it is a example of how they might react in similar situations, as well as a precedent.
I believe that in the course of the Klingons evaluating such a claim a philosophical debate on what happens to a Klingon's soul in this situation would be sparked. If Kobalification created a new person with their own soul, then no action would need to be taken, as the former occupant of the body was (hopefully) in Stovakor and unaffected. But if they decide that this is the same person, revived by technological means against their will, then a response will have to be made. Most likely, due to political considerations, the affected individual would be accepted as who they claim to be and the Kobali would be told to pound sand....and warned to stop provoking the Empire by Kobalifying Klingon corpses, but it could get ugly in the right circumstances.
There was a lot of space between the two groups. The Kobali were encountered on the opposite side of Borg space, so a good 12 years at Warp 9 away from where the people from the episode you're talking about are.
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Yes, that's me ! Part II (ST-HQ3SJN2YW) and III (ST-HD92ZCDFQ) are now available as well under the non-spotlight content, although they're plagued by the "no reward" bug that seemed to have affected a number of Foundry missions recently.
My character Tsin'xing
For people who were apparently nomads, I doubt that would be a problem. Actually learning about the body dump, on the other hand...
I never bought that "humans are speshul" handwave to begin with, because of the events of the Kobalis' debut TV episode. In "Ashes to Ashes" Lyndsay Ballard's self-proclaimed "father" is able to get two military vessels to come chasing after her when she makes her escape... to Voyager, a ship that is moving fast across the Delta Quadrant and fairly regularly jumps hundreds or thousands of light-years. That speaks to a legally backed procedure (because otherwise Daddy-o is misusing government resources at a minimum, and depending on the circumstances might also be guilty of barratry, desertion, and/or improper hazarding of a vessel), and organizations don't tend to develop a response procedure of that nature unless something happens (or can be predicted to happen) with some significant regularity.
In other words, it can't possibly be a problem they've only ever had with humans. An alternative suggestion, that is more likely given the habitual dishonesty and secrecy displayed by the Kobali, is that they've covered up past instances.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Welcome to the game. More surprises will come your way for sure. Hang in there, it's a fun ride.
Yeah, I saw that bug thread. Really hoping it gets fixed, soon.
I recommended your mission to a friend, and he basically said the Mirror Kobali are just the Prime Kobali minus the pretense.
In a fanfic, I took the easy route and blamed it on perimortem brain damage: i.e. how fresh and complete the decedent's brain is before conversion determines how much if anything they remember from their previous life. That the only two (known) human-Kobali both remembered is a coincidence made public by the fact there are third-party records of the incidents.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
No, on this one, if a klingon was given the Second Life, or kobalified as you put it. They would just perform Mauk-to'vor, ritual suicide, and return to death. Doing so would also likely draw the attention of the klingon Empire, and the Kobali thought the Vaadwuar were bad. If this angered the klingons, they would not stop until the Kobali were eradicated.
Which, I'm all down for the eradication of space zombies. I agreed with the vaadwuar here. The kobali needed to be exterminated.
Probably not the Mauk-to'vor. That requires a sibling do the actual killing, so they'd have to first escape and convince one of their siblings (assuming they have any) of what happened and that they're truly who they claim to be.
The Hegh'bat wouldn't work either, that requires them be a burden who can no longer live as a warrior and also requires another to participate (usually family).
I think it's most likely they'd be killed during the escape attempt, with the Klingons never learning and continuing to remember their first death as if it was their only one.
No the hegh'bat would work. As it doesn't require a sibling, just a second. And well, I'm pretty sure that any of the vaadwuar would have been willing to hand them a knife to kill themselves with.
So this one has a bit of leeway. Such as Worf asking Riker to help with it, when Worf was paralyzed. This would be the more battle field version of Mauk-to'Vor. Otherwise, yes, it would normally fall to a family member to help with it, preferably the oldest son.
My character Tsin'xing
Only sometimes. Other times there's a whole slew of rituals they have to go through to ensure the soul passes to Sto'vo'kor properly.
(Hell, in the Klingon storyline in this game, we're involved in bringing M'ven, son of Drex back home to the Martok Estate for his funeral after Torg's boys murder him at the bat'leth tournament.)
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Harry had died by being exposed to hard vacuum and floated about in space for years before Ballard found him. There would only have been a desiccated husk remaining....Shepard in ME2 at least was inside a hard suit when that happened to him.
The nature of a Klingon response would likely depend on the exact circumstances.....if the Kobali had gotten permission to re-purpose the dead Warrior(s) they would respond differently than if one or more of their people just return out of the blue claiming they are Klingon warriors known to be KIA and manage to prove it.
If I were the Kobali, I'd leave Klingons alone and hire a quality PR firm in the Federation to launch a campaign looking for volunteers for a "second Life". The main problem would be screening out the folks who were planning to just go back to Earth/wherever once revived and take up their previous lives instead of playing ball.
If I were a Ferengi, I'd hire Nausicans or perhaps ex Tal'Shiar gone merc to get me a supply of that virus and become rich beyond my wildest dreams Kobalifying rich humans.
I disagree with that. Aside from the Kobali BS, I enjoyed most of the DR story. It certainly wasn't without flaws, though -- the writing was too Fed-centric, for one thing (why is my Romulan complaining that tricking their allies into closer cooperation is a bad thing?).
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
> > @starswordc said:
> > I disagree with that. Aside from the Kobali BS, I enjoyed most of the DR story. It certainly wasn't without flaws, though -- the writing was too Fed-centric, for one thing (why is my Romulan complaining that tricking their allies into closer cooperation is a bad thing?).
>
> Possibly because they respect what D'Tan showed them on Mol'Rihan and agree with what he told the Tal Shiar representative (Rom Rep T1 video) that the Romulan people need to stay out of the shadows.
Race ≠ politics. The Romulan Republic is far from an ideological monolith, and just because a Rihanha flies the Raptor instead of the Eagle-and-Globes doesn't mean they're going to automatically agree with the beliefs of their head of state. I would have liked to have had the option to play Morgan t'Thavrau the way I envisioned her, i.e. a wee bit of a conservative who doesn't want to dump EVERYTHING about the old empire (she's not a Unificationist).
Besides, in context D'Tan was rebuking Tal'Shiar Lady for trying to subvert him to Tal'Shiar objectives, wanting to be the "power behind the throne" so to speak. He's actually quite a shrewd politician in his own right.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Why only Ferengi? What about other enterprising races? Hire a nova hot xenobiologist team, have them modify the virus to work on the living as well, to change them into a race of your choosing. Keep it for yourself.
> Why only Ferengi? What about other enterprising races? Hire a nova hot xenobiologist team, have them modify the virus to work on the living as well, to change them into a race of your choosing. Keep it for yourself.
Because the "sunshine and unicorns" human society have pretty much had that bred out of them.....there aren't any Harrt Mudds in the 25th century, sharp practice is delegated to outsiders like the Ferengi. But in truth, it could be dreamed up by anybody.
As far as the rest, more work than necessary, and the cost to re-engineer the virus would be astronomical, which cuts into the profit margin. The goal is maximum profit from the Fed 1% until the Fed PC Patrol shuts you down......the Kobali virus works as intended, and is safe to use so why change it?
And keep it for yourself alone? Why? Do you have any idea how much the rich will pay to double their lifespans....without the hassle of Kobali sending fleets after you to bring you "home"?
My character Tsin'xing