Star Trek II/III and the Genesis planet

djf021

Ok gang, someone help me understand something. I've just re-watched "The Wrath of Khan" after a long time (still the best of the movies).
What was the Genesis planet made of? Pieces of Reliant?
The device Khan detonated wasn't ever deployed on a "lifeless body, a moon or other dead form".
I've never quite understood that...

rattler2

Yes... pieces of Reliant along with a very large portion of the Mutara Nebula.

legendarylycan

and that, combined with the fact that one of the components used in the device was highly unstable protomatter, is why the planet itself blew up several weeks later​​

starkaos

shadowfang240 wrote: »

and that, combined with the fact that one of the components used in the device was highly unstable protomatter, is why the planet itself blew up several weeks later​​

And yet the Lukari treat it like a toy and the Tzenkethi use it with reckless abandon. So it is not that they were working with highly unstable protomatter, but they didn't have a clue how to work with protomatter.

rattler2

I attribute Genesis' failure to the fact that it wasn't used as designed. That test cave Dr. Marcus made was pretty stable. If it had been used on a lifeless rock like intended, the matrix might have been more stable. Instead, most of the energy was expended turning a gas cloud into a planet.

jonsills

In the novelization of STIII, they revisited the cave - and found that the life there undergone explosive growth, to the point that it was in danger of cracking the cave open to space.

Also, the Lukari had made some theoretical breakthrough in protomatter that Federation science never did - Capt. Kuumaarke casually alludes to it as if it were something that everyone knew. Presumably the Tzenkethi either made the same breakthrough, or got it from the Lukari one way or another. David Marcus was just careless and foolish. Probably got that from his father.

starkaos

rattler2 wrote: »

I attribute Genesis' failure to the fact that it wasn't used as designed. That test cave Dr. Marcus made was pretty stable. If it had been used on a lifeless rock like intended, the matrix might have been more stable. Instead, most of the energy was expended turning a gas cloud into a planet.

And as a result, the Federation decided to ban a completely useful technology. Of course, turning inhabited planets into habitable planets is a good part of the reason, but limiting the scope to only specific areas of the environment could also work. It is the whole idea of technology is neither good nor bad, but how it is used. Nuclear technology can cause immense devastation, but it also can provide lots of power without polluting the atmosphere.

Seems really weird how carbon dioxide is being treated as the enemy of the world due to climate change and extremely unreliable technologies like solar and wind are being promoted, but the reliable technology of nuclear power is being ignored. Solar and wind are only good as supplementary power sources since it is not always sunny or windy. So coal power plants, natural gas power plants, and nuclear power plants are necessary until something better comes along.

legendarylycan

they didn't 'ban' the technology - the device seyetek used to reignite a dead star also had protomatter in it​​

rattler2

starkaos wrote: »

And as a result, the Federation decided to ban a completely useful technology. Of course, turning inhabited planets into habitable planets is a good part of the reason, but limiting the scope to only specific areas of the environment could also work.

Genesis was also persued by the Klingons in ST3, wanting the Genesis WEAPON. While it was a revolutionary teraforming tech... if it was used on an already inhabited planet that would be the equivelent of a WMD. All existing life wiped out in favor of the new matrix. This was explored a bit in the Genesis Wave books, and is being explored in STO with the Lukari and Tzenkethi. The Lukari represent all of the positive elements and applications for Protomatter and Genesis tech. The Tzenkethi represent the negative.

djf021

Funnily enough, I forgot the current STO storyline when I brought this up. I guess I'm already thinking "Victory is Life"
It's an interesting discussion, though.

starkaos

djf021 wrote: »

Funnily enough, I forgot the current STO storyline when I brought this up. I guess I'm already thinking "Victory is Life"
It's an interesting discussion, though.

STO certainly does that a lot. It seems like we never take any time to deal with the aftermath of some war before the next one starts. It feels like the first few episodes of Voyager where Voyager is in a major crisis with tons of equipment destroyed and the next episode everything is perfectly fine.

markhawkman

shadowfang240 wrote: »

they didn't 'ban' the technology - the device seyetek used to reignite a dead star also had protomatter in it​​

Spock said that "no ethical scientist" would use protomatter. Which given how it was presented makes it seem like the Federation hadn't actually done a lot of research into stabilizing it due to it being deemed "too dangerous". IE.... when it was set off, NO ONE actually knew exactly what would happen.

starkaos

markhawkman wrote: »

shadowfang240 wrote: »

they didn't 'ban' the technology - the device seyetek used to reignite a dead star also had protomatter in it​​

Spock said that "no ethical scientist" would use protomatter. Which given how it was presented makes it seem like the Federation hadn't actually done a lot of research into stabilizing it due to it being deemed "too dangerous". IE.... when it was set off, NO ONE actually knew exactly what would happen.

That is what uninhabited star systems are for. I would assume that they would at least have a clue if some newly discovered technology would have the possibility of destroying the sector, galaxy, or universe. After all, it is extremely egotistical to believe that the Federation is the first to find a new material with there being alien races that have been around for hundreds of thousands or millions of years.

markhawkman

Well, Vulcans, and the Federation Science council by extension, are not above intellectual snobbery. Protomatter wasn't even the first incident.

starkaos

azrael605 wrote: »

> @starkaos said:
> markhawkman wrote: »
>
> shadowfang240 wrote: »
>
> they didn't 'ban' the technology - the device seyetek used to reignite a dead star also had protomatter in it​​
>
>
>
> Spock said that "no ethical scientist" would use protomatter. Which given how it was presented makes it seem like the Federation hadn't actually done a lot of research into stabilizing it due to it being deemed "too dangerous". IE.... when it was set off, NO ONE actually knew exactly what would happen.
>
>
>
>
> That is what uninhabited star systems are for. I would assume that they would at least have a clue if some newly discovered technology would have the possibility of destroying the sector, galaxy, or universe. After all, it is extremely egotistical to believe that the Federation is the first to find a new material with there being alien races that have been around for hundreds of thousands or millions of years.

Look at the Omega Disater that caused the Omega Directive to be enacted. A test lab located in an isolated sector, a lab just like Regula One.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Lantaru_sector

All things considered, the Omega Disaster was pretty light since it just rendered warp travel useless for a few lightyears instead of destroying a bunch of planets. So either a few worlds no longer have interstellar communication and travel or it just caused a minor inconvenience for starships. Even if the entire galaxy was affected by it, then it would not be a major disaster. Countless interstellar empires will no longer be able to terrorize their subjects. Also a few centuries later or even sooner, a new FTL technology would be developed.

mustrumridcully0

starkaos wrote: »

azrael605 wrote: »

> @starkaos said:
> markhawkman wrote: »
>
> shadowfang240 wrote: »
>
> they didn't 'ban' the technology - the device seyetek used to reignite a dead star also had protomatter in it​​
>
>
>
> Spock said that "no ethical scientist" would use protomatter. Which given how it was presented makes it seem like the Federation hadn't actually done a lot of research into stabilizing it due to it being deemed "too dangerous". IE.... when it was set off, NO ONE actually knew exactly what would happen.
>
>
>
>
> That is what uninhabited star systems are for. I would assume that they would at least have a clue if some newly discovered technology would have the possibility of destroying the sector, galaxy, or universe. After all, it is extremely egotistical to believe that the Federation is the first to find a new material with there being alien races that have been around for hundreds of thousands or millions of years.

Look at the Omega Disater that caused the Omega Directive to be enacted. A test lab located in an isolated sector, a lab just like Regula One.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Lantaru_sector

All things considered, the Omega Disaster was pretty light since it just rendered warp travel useless for a few lightyears instead of destroying a bunch of planets. So either a few worlds no longer have interstellar communication and travel or it just caused a minor inconvenience for starships. Even if the entire galaxy was affected by it, then it would not be a major disaster. Countless interstellar empires will no longer be able to terrorize their subjects. Also a few centuries later or even sooner, a new FTL technology would be developed.

It might be just as bad as destroying a whole planet if a few dozen worlds are cut off from subspace. There is clearly trade in the Federation and across the Federation borders, so they might run into severe supply problems that could lead to many deaths.

jonsills

starkaos wrote: »

azrael605 wrote: »

> @starkaos said:
> markhawkman wrote: »
>
> shadowfang240 wrote: »
>
> they didn't 'ban' the technology - the device seyetek used to reignite a dead star also had protomatter in it​​
>
>
>
> Spock said that "no ethical scientist" would use protomatter. Which given how it was presented makes it seem like the Federation hadn't actually done a lot of research into stabilizing it due to it being deemed "too dangerous". IE.... when it was set off, NO ONE actually knew exactly what would happen.
>
>
>
>
> That is what uninhabited star systems are for. I would assume that they would at least have a clue if some newly discovered technology would have the possibility of destroying the sector, galaxy, or universe. After all, it is extremely egotistical to believe that the Federation is the first to find a new material with there being alien races that have been around for hundreds of thousands or millions of years.

Look at the Omega Disater that caused the Omega Directive to be enacted. A test lab located in an isolated sector, a lab just like Regula One.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Lantaru_sector

All things considered, the Omega Disaster was pretty light since it just rendered warp travel useless for a few lightyears instead of destroying a bunch of planets. So either a few worlds no longer have interstellar communication and travel or it just caused a minor inconvenience for starships. Even if the entire galaxy was affected by it, then it would not be a major disaster. Countless interstellar empires will no longer be able to terrorize their subjects. Also a few centuries later or even sooner, a new FTL technology would be developed.

Remember all those episodes, especially in TNG, where some planet was on the verge of disaster due to either disease or some ecological issue, and the Enterprise had to get there in time to keep everyone on the planet from dying? Yeah, can't do that without warp drive.

And what "other technology"? Why do you assume there's more than one way to go FTL, especially when here in the real world we haven't even discovered that one yet? (Slipstream, transwarp, and underspace appear to be special cases of warp physics, not totally different technologies, and would be affected by an Omega incident - one of the reasons the Borg weren't messing about with such things while fighting Species 8472.)

legendarylycan

the mycelial network is referred to as a discreet subspace domain, so destruction of subspace in any region of space would render the spore drive inoperable within it as well

so that's 5 distinct FTL technologies that would be rendered useless in the event of an omega detonation​​

markhawkman

I personally have to wonder if Borg Transwarp tech can work through subspace storms.

Oh and galaxy wide subspace storms ARE a plot point in the Master of Orion series of games. But that wasn't a sudden catastrophic event. It was an ongoing event in the second game, and by the third game warp travel had already been replaced.

markhawkman

azrael605 wrote: »

That game was poorly written.

What? Not following your train of thought here....

rattler2

So without knowing what other kinds of non-subspace FTL is capable in the Star Trek universe... loss of Subspace is a devastating blow to any space faring civilization.

starkaos

There is wormholes and folded space technology in Star Trek with the coaxial warp drive and Spatial Trajector from Voyager. There is also The Caretaker's displacement wave and Tash's graviton catapult from Voyager.

Then there is the issue of how much of subspace was damaged by the Omega Particle explosion which determines which subspace propulsion technologies are no longer viable. The Warp Drive and Subspace communications might only use the 'shallow waters' of subspace while other subspace propulsion technologies might go deeper into subspace. So without knowing the extent of the damage, then Transwarp Drives and Quantum Slipstream Drives might still work in the Lantaru Sector assuming that they operate at a deeper level of subspace than what the Omega Molecule explosion affected.

rattler2

Except that Omega DESTROYS subspace. Doesn't damage. Outright destroys. No subspace left in the blast area. Its literally a Dead Zone. Hence why its viewed as such a big threat.

markhawkman

azrael605 wrote: »

> @markhawkman said:
> azrael605 wrote: »
>
> That game was poorly written.
>
> What? Not following your train of thought here....

You mentioned Master of Orion, if that game had Borg Transwarp functioning through "subspace storms" then the writer didn't pay attention to the rules of the setting (because a subspace storm would block ALL FTL in the Trek setting), thus the game is badly written.

MoO doesn't use the Star Trek IP at all. I was talking about two completely different things, thus why they're separate paragraphs.

The form of FTL that was usable even with the subspace storms was networks of wormholes and things like that. For MoO 3, this included something called "warp points" which were kinda like wormholes, but not quite the same. This included artificially created ones.

rattler2

markhawkman wrote: »

The form of FTL that was usable even with the subspace storms was networks of wormholes and things like that. For MoO 3, this included something called "warp points" which were kinda like wormholes, but not quite the same. This included artificially created ones.

Sounds a bit like the Jump Points in Wing Commander, having to leapfrog from one system to another.