Discovery 1x11 : "The Wolf Inside"

potentialbff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvIw6nZd0rI

What do you think will happen?

Poll will be added tomorrow.

hawku001x

For a second, I thought that read as "The Worf Inside."

evilmark444

Just watched the episode

Well, I was right about Georgiou being the Emperor didn't expect to find out so soon though, lol

jcsww

evilmark444 wrote: »

Just watched the episode

Well, I was right about Georgiou being the Emperor didn't expect to find out so soon though, lol

Damn! I want her to kill Burnham slowly and painfully!

smokebailey

Let's hope she don't become another side dish.....

thay8472

All hail Empress Georgiou!!!!!

markhawkman

Least sexy mirror outfit ever!

Nice though.

seaofsorrows

Loved this episode.. this show just keeps getting better.

I will say though, this show kills people off right and left. It's both cool.. and a little depressing all at the same time.

starswordc

Anybody else notice Jason Isaacs's accent slipped in that one scene?

artan42

• Emperor Georgiou.
• So their attempt to improve on the already perfect ENT Andorians was to extend their cheekbones? Odd but still perfectly feasible the ENT, TOS, and DSC Andorians could all just be exhibiting ethnic differences. There's still many Earth species that exhibit far more dramatic dimorphism than four different antenna styles, presence or lack of ridges or extended cheekbones. Hell, even the TNG Andorian isn't much of a departure despite looking idiotic.
• Tellerites have tusks and that's about the extent of their changes.
• Klingons need hair. All the problems would go away if they had hair.
• I'm a bit disappointed there's been no cross over characters yet. DS9 had Mirror Tuvok. This would be an excellent opportunity to see aged Mirror ENT characters or early Mirror TOS characters.
• Uugh with the rights issues. DSC takes place about the same time frame as the KT films meaning you could reuse any number of those actors to play their Prime or Mirror counterparts to get round the age or death problem with TOS. Not to mention ships like the Kelvin could still be in service. I'd love to Admiral Robu. Not really related to this episode but related to the point above.
• Sarek really looks like the actor who plays Spock in Star Trek: Continues.
• Who the hell is the ginger lass who's Burnham's XO? I know she's on the bridge in the Prime universe but her elevated position in the MU would suggest she's the Second Officer or something in the Prime and I don't even know her name.
• For gods sake Michael, you phaser has several bloody settings. Just stun the Klingon and lock him in the cupboard.
• Why is it Humans are the only species (okay, the Bajorans too)that seems noticeably different in the MU? Andorians, Klingons, Cardassians, Vulcans etc. All seem the same.
• Wouldn't it have been quicker to infect Voq with the Augment Virus? It works in seconds.
• It hasn't been mentioned here yet but there's not a single reason Georgiou can't be a descendent of Hoshi. Having an accent means you were brought up around people who used that accent or that you teach yourself it to fit in. Georgiou can still be ethnically Japanese yet born or raised in Malaysia. Her parents could even have been born in Malaysia but she could still be ethnically Japanese. I don't care one way or the other as I don't really care for Sato in either universe but it has come up else where so I'm noting it.
• No yellow stripes on the Shenzhou. I'm disappointed.
• I love all those space to inside transitions through the windows.
• I don't know why Burnham didn't just claim Lorca was a double agent from the start so she didn't have to keep him prisoner.

starswordc wrote: »

Anybody else notice Jason Isaacs's accent slipped in that one scene?

I noticed Lorca, Tyler (as Tyler), Voq (as Voq), and Sarek's accents all slip this episode. Words with repeated 'Rs' are apparently the hardest for English actors to do in an American accent.​​

artan42

somtaawkhar wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

• Why is it Humans are the only species (okay, the Bajorans too)that seems noticeably different in the MU? Andorians, Klingons, Cardassians, Vulcans etc. All seem the same.

Because Star Trek has always been a show about exploring the HUMAN condition by using alien species as caricatures of specific aspects of human existence.

The Federation was supposed to represent what could happen if we used the boundless human drive for something selfless, while the Mirror Universe was always what would happen if we used it for selfish.

The same is true for the two other "evil" Federations in Trek canon
-The Borg, who represent what happens when we let our reliance and dependency on technology go too far
-The Dominion, who represent what would happen if we used our powers out of sheer fear of everyone around us

Yeah but they changed the Bajorans too. And overall the direction of ST is exploring humanity not every single arc or story is necessarily for that reason. Sins of the Father and Redemption develop Worf with nothing to do with Humans. There's no reason they couldn't have used these episodes to develop Voq.​​

artan42

somtaawkhar wrote: »

Also, Worf is a Klingon, which makes him a caricature of humanity, which means developing him is developing said caricature.

I think that's massivly stretching the shows purpose. It has a direction but individual episodes are still written as stories first and foremost. TOS Klingons may well have been basically martial humans but TNG Klingons are only caricatures of themselves. They're sometimes used as foils to the Federation (such as Martoks talk with Worf about enslaving other races) but they also exist outside the human vacuum.​​

starswordc

@artan42: The redhead's name is Lieutenant Keyla Detmer.

markhawkman

Is mirror!Detmer a cyborg?

Also I can't help but wonder if she was named after Theodore Detmers.

mhall85

So, this episode was fine.

I do feel like this show attempts to do MAJOR CRAZY TWISTS OMGZZ!!!!!!11OneOneCAPSLOCK reveals that are, essentially, seen from a mile away. Tyler is Voq. Georgiou is the faceless emperor. We saw that coming, or at least I did (and I really don’t seek out spoilers). It’s a credit to the show, though, that I find both of these plot points interesting. The attempt at a veiled mystery doesn’t work, though, IMO.

Which is why I will be very disappointed if Lorca is a MU plant, who attempted to either get Prime Discovery for the spore drive or Prime Burnham into the MU for some reason. I don’t buy that theory, but at this point, it might be because I don’t want it to be true. Lorca’ s conversation with Burnham about killing the rebel colony... boy, that COULD be interpreted as a giant “I’M FROM THE MIRROR UNIVERSE AND I’M TRYING TO MANIPULATE YOU SECRETLY” tell. This writing team lacks subtlety, at times, so I hope I’m wrong here.

Something, too, about the final attack on the rebel colony... one would assume that Mirror Voq would feel betrayed, as a result of Burnham’s failure to prevent their full escape. This COULD be the catalyst that pushes this “coalition of hope” towards the vengeful Klingon-Cardassian Alliance. That would be very interesting if they make that connection.

markhawkman

My theory is that Lorca's end game is to become Emperor Lorca. He grabbed Burnham because of who mirror!Burnham is.

artan42

starswordc wrote: »

@artan42: The redhead's name is Lieutenant Keyla Detmer.

Thanks.

It's just seems odd she's so highly positioned and in focus in the MU and presumably high ranked in the Prime and has the relationship with Burnham from The Battle of the Binary Stars and yet I can't remember even hearing her name spoken once.​​

mirrorchaos

Made an off-hand comment about Tyler/Voq about the torture when it really wasn't last week, but L'Rell had to strip his flesh off his body, reduce the internal organs, break the bones and and remend them at a shorter length, all without something to completely dull the pain and rebuild a human organ around that. she probably did the same to his brain, cut out part of it and restructure the skull and place him back inside the skull. a vastly complicated proceedure with obvious side effects. Just to even imagine how much it would of taken for Voq to live through that, assuming it was even the case for a while.

Now the obvious question remains, is it possible to get Voq back to the way he was? some kind of failsafe that will automatically revert him back to his klingon self after all that mutilation? like some magic potion?

What happened to the mirror Voq? long have i suspect Voq is an important character but when he went missing and then this confirmation. i still somewhat suspect his character isn't done yet, i also think the mirror Voq isn't done yet either.

We saw a very little of Stamets within the network and he meets a mirror version of himself from the looks of it. i wonder how that will play out and what effect it would have on his body, it clear there is some connection there with Tilly looking on.

I'm starting to wonder what Burnham's end game is in the mirror universe and how she will deal with everything happening to her away from everything and back with Sarek on Vulcan in her own reality. It's more than enough to drive her a bit mad by bottling it all up. First officer, traitor, prisoner, in service again, imposter captain, betrayed by her lover who is a klingon spy, play thing of the emperor and finally likely tormented by Voq over their actions together. it's a dark hole she is in.

mustrumridcully0

mhall85 wrote: »

So, this episode was fine.

I do feel like this show attempts to do MAJOR CRAZY TWISTS OMGZZ!!!!!!11OneOneCAPSLOCK reveals that are, essentially, seen from a mile away. Tyler is Voq. Georgiou is the faceless emperor. We saw that coming, or at least I did (and I really don’t seek out spoilers). It’s a credit to the show, though, that I find both of these plot points interesting. The attempt at a veiled mystery doesn’t work, though, IMO.

I am pretty sure that if I didn't follow forums about the show, I'd not have seen Voq/Tyler coming. Or at least not the full extent of the story. But I think that they put in clues in it is that they want some people to find out. A reveal like that being pulled out of nowhere is still surprising, but it can often be very unsatisfying, because it feels like it doesn't fit the characters or story. (Jake Skywalker, I am looking at you.)

However, Georgiou wasn't really telegraphed, but it's a logical choice to add to the dramatic conflict for Burnham. So I certainly hoped it to be her, and I am very satisfied that it is her. (Also, Micheal Yeoh was awesome, it would be a shame to just have her for two episodes.)

Which is why I will be very disappointed if Lorca is a MU plant, who attempted to either get Prime Discovery for the spore drive or Prime Burnham into the MU for some reason. I don’t buy that theory, but at this point, it might be because I don’t want it to be true. Lorca’ s conversation with Burnham about killing the rebel colony... boy, that COULD be interpreted as a giant “I’M FROM THE MIRROR UNIVERSE AND I’M TRYING TO MANIPULATE YOU SECRETLY” tell. This writing team lacks subtlety, at times, so I hope I’m wrong here.

I don't really want Lorca to be an MU plant, because it kinda weakens his role as the "morally questionable" Captain if he never was from the Primeverse to begin with.

Though I think if he's an MU plant, at least he might be one of their good guys. Or at least better guys.
I think his focus on waging a war against the Klingons however would not be explained by being a MU person. Why would he worry so much about that if this wasn't his universe to begin with? Okay, maybe he's really a a very decent guy by MU standards, but unless he had some foreknowledge this could get him home, it seems strange that he'd focus so much on it.

My alternate theory is that his real goal is to save the crew of the Buran, his old ship. Or at least some crew of his ship, even if it's in an alternate universe, regardless of what his original one is.

Something, too, about the final attack on the rebel colony... one would assume that Mirror Voq would feel betrayed, as a result of Burnham’s failure to prevent their full escape. This COULD be the catalyst that pushes this “coalition of hope” towards the vengeful Klingon-Cardassian Alliance. That would be very interesting if they make that connection.

It would not be the first time Primeverse meddling into the Mirror Universe backfires. Oh, wait, it might be, chronologically speaking, the first time, but not the first time we saw it happen.


---

I wonder how @angrytarg felt about the new Tellarites...

mustrumridcully0

markhawkman wrote: »

Is mirror!Detmer a cyborg?

Also I can't help but wonder if she was named after Theodore Detmers.

Primeverse Detmer got injured in the Battle of the Binary Stars and got that implant in her face. The full on cyborg is called Airiam, I believe.

Detmer is played by Emily Couts and Sara Mitich plays Airam. (It's kinda shocking how good looking Sara Mitich is, she wouldn't be my first guess who you'd put onto a complete head-covering prosthetic.)

artan42

somtaawkhar wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

Thanks.

It's just seems odd she's so highly positioned and in focus in the MU and presumably high ranked in the Prime and has the relationship with Burnham from The Battle of the Binary Stars and yet I can't remember even hearing her name spoken once.

She is Discovery's version of Mayweather. You see her a lot, and you can tell she is supposed to be somewhat important or high ranking, but yo ucan't exactly remember WHY she is, or who she is really.

Worse really. By this far into ENT I know Mayweather's name and that 'HE'D BEEN TO SPACE!'. True we didn't get to find out much more than that in the next three years but at least I had a name to pin to 'Dude-who-flies-the-ship-and-has-been-to-space-before'. Until I asked here I didn't have a name to go with 'Lass-who-flies-the-ship-and-has-a-half-metal-face'.

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

I wonder how @angrytarg felt about the new Tellarites...

Targ didn't like the ENT Tellarites despite them being identical to the ones from the TOS films. All they've done here is add tusks which means Targ will like them even less .​​

angrytarg

Eh, I like them better than ENTs version as they are less Dwarfi (I like Dwarfs, but 'rites were never portrayed at being Dwarfish until ENT came up with that) but the 'tusks' make no sense as they seem to be spikes emerging from the skin rather than being actual teeth. Ultimatelt I don't get the redesign.

The only reason the whole Klingorc thing came around was to have the Tyler arc - which honestly L'Rell's "you must sacrifice everything" - when literally everything they talk about evor is being klingon - was a dead giveaway for. And this arc makes no sense as neither TOS nor TNG Klingons would ever need to go through this to pose as a Human. This isn't just a visual change, the story doesn't work in established canon. And that makes DSCs choice of setting completely useless. Abd that's why it keeps getting dumber by every passing minute xD

starkaos

artan42 wrote: »

• I'm a bit disappointed there's been no cross over characters yet. DS9 had Mirror Tuvok. This would be an excellent opportunity to see aged Mirror ENT characters or early Mirror TOS characters.

​​

We had Mirror Sarek and he was in TOS. Discovery might be trying to minimize the effect Discovery's crew has on the Mirror Universe so that Kirk's encounter is the first official encounter with the Mirror Universe. So the cross over characters would be limited.

markhawkman wrote: »

Is mirror!Detmer a cyborg?

Also I can't help but wonder if she was named after Theodore Detmers.

Doubtful. Detmer became a cyborg due to her injuries at the Battle of the Binary Star while the Mirror version of the Battle of the Binary Star looks to have been a major victory for the Terran Empire.

Also, the Terran Empire seems to be fearful of the unknown. So Cyborgs might be Second Class Citizens or worse in the Terran Empire civilization. Cyborgs are no longer pure so it is possible that there are no Cyborgs serving in the Terran Empire military.

angrytarg

> @artan42 said:
> somtaawkhar wrote: »
>
> artan42 wrote: »
>
> Thanks.
>
> It's just seems odd she's so highly positioned and in focus in the MU and presumably high ranked in the Prime and has the relationship with Burnham from The Battle of the Binary Stars and yet I can't remember even hearing her name spoken once.
>
>
>
> She is Discovery's version of Mayweather. You see her a lot, and you can tell she is supposed to be somewhat important or high ranking, but yo ucan't exactly remember WHY she is, or who she is really.
>
>
>
>
>
> Worse really. By this far into ENT I know Mayweather's name and that 'HE'D BEEN TO SPACE!'. True we didn't get to find out much more than that in the next three years but at least I had a name to pin to 'Dude-who-flies-the-ship-and-has-been-to-space-before'. Until I asked here I didn't have a name to go with 'Lass-who-flies-the-ship-and-has-a-half-metal-face'.
> mustrumridcully0 wrote: »
>
> I wonder how @angrytarg felt about the new Tellarites...
>
>
>
>
> Targ didn't like the ENT Tellarites despite them being identical to the ones from the TOS films. All they've done here is add tusks which means Targ will like them even less .​​

Those here were much more snouty and less dwarfish. TOS movie 'rites and ENTs flattened the snouts way too much, that's why I wanted TOS snouts since STOs launch xD

Honestly, you declare things identical a lot but brush over many fine details that make or break things. For example, L'Rell wouldn't look like a Klingon even with hair, not by a long shot.

mirrorchaos

If Discovery keeps on the path they have with tellarites that will look like star wars ugnaughts before long.

artan42

angrytarg wrote: »

Those here were much more snouty and less dwarfish. TOS movie 'rites and ENTs flattened the snouts way too much, that's why I wanted TOS snouts since STOs launch xD

TOS: Pig nose stuck onto a human with recessed eyes.


TOS Films: Normal eyes, high, bald forehead with faint ridge pattern.


ENT: Ridged eyes making them ever so slightly recessed, heavier ridges on the high, bald forehead.


DSC: Ridged eyes making them ever so slightly recessed, heavier ridges on the high, bald forehead.

Their tusks are also molars, like elephants but they grow out of the side of their cheeks instead of curing out of the mouth. I only remeber seeing one 'rite in DSC so far so you never know, he could be a mutant though I doubt that's their intention.

Sorry mate, but TOS is the odd duck out.

angrytarg wrote: »

Honestly, you declare things identical a lot but brush over many fine details that make or break things. For example, L'Rell wouldn't look like a Klingon even with hair, not by a long shot.

Betcha she does...

Looks like I win again , lots more here.​​

mirrorchaos

Possibly another one of House Mo'kai's mutilated klingons with Darvin. Discovery and Voq might explain how McCoy was able to learn the man is a Klingon as it never made any sense how someone who was altered to be a Human could be found out so fast with a medical scan, i mean besides the tribble, it would of been imposible to know he was a klingon.