DISCOVERY 1x10: "Despite Yourself" (poll/dicussion)

potentialbff

Well, Discovery is back tonight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy6bHVcaHqQ

mhall85

I enjoyed the episode

HOLY S**TBALLS!!!!!

They actually did it!!! And no, I ain’t talking about the MU...

starswordc

I enjoyed the episode

Well I'll be damned. A good episode overall, but...

• I really didn't want the "Ash Tyler is Voq" theory to be true.
• I'm pissed that they killed off Doctor Culber. I hate the Bury Your Gays trope.

mhall85

I enjoyed the episode

starswordc wrote: »

Well I'll be damned. A good episode overall, but...

• I really didn't want the "Ash Tyler is Voq" theory to be true.
• I'm pissed that they killed off Doctor Culber. I hate the Bury Your **** trope.

Well...

Apparently, they aren’t done with Culber, according to the showrunners on After Trek

Magic Reset Button Alert....

evilmark444

I enjoyed the episode

1) I want that Terran uniform!

2) It's official, they're fraking up the Connie too ...

artan42

• Well that was a oddly good Mirror Universe episode. I mean I kinda liked In a Mirror Darkly and Mirror Mirror (it was the DS9 ones I didn't like) and this wasn't so bad. I mean it even linked back to In a Mirror Darkly with the Defiant and I think the knives were even the same props.
• I think the Defiant image they show is from the Terran data core, i.e. the Defiant after the Terrans have had 101 years to tinker with it. DSC hasn't yet shown anything that appeared previously (other than the Klingons I know) but I doubt an episode tying back so neatly with IaMD is going to use a different Constitution Class model for no reason.
• With this being 193 years after IaMD unfortunately I can't see any of the ENT cast appearing (did T'Pol, Phlox, or Savol survive IaMD? I can't remeber).
• Those uniforms aren't too bad considering. No mini tops or idiotic 'evil is sexy' bollocks, just overly opulent armour suiting a martial society of narcissistic loons.
• I can't remeber, did both ENT and TOS' MU have the same insignia for the Empire? If they did, why would DSC be different. If they were different please disregurd.
• I hope ISS Shenzhou's stripes are yellow not purple.
• Captain 'Killy' , that made me chuckle.
• Preview for next episode shows TOS style Andorians with their silly wigs and sideways antenna and bearded Vulcans.
• I'm glad Lorca realises Terrans are disposable and that a universe full of wasted lives matter less than the much nicer reality they've just left. Makes it much easier to blend in, it just like being on the holodeck.
• I wonder if Lorca wanted to recruit the Terrans or the Rebels to the Prime Universe for the war or if he's just pushing the spore drive as far as he can. I still don't think he's from the MU.
• Why is OfficerMcshroomface the only one who can operate the Spore Drive? Can't you stick a port in anyone to get home?
• Is nobody concerned with the ISS Discovery being in the Prime Universe at the moment?
• I was half expecting Lorca (well, Issacs) to use his own accent but the Scots was funnier.
• I dunno about this whole Voq thing. I found Kol and T'Kuvma to be reasonably interesting but the rest of the Klingons just bore me. I mean the producers just couldn't win, you make a new race and a new war people bit.ch about the Xindi all over again, you keep them the same and there's nothing new, so we get VGR and ENT all over again, and so you change things up and you get bitc.hing about change.

starswordc wrote: »

Well I'll be damned. A good episode overall, but...
Bury Your **** trope.

The trope you're looking for is this one. Nobody gets exemptions from it.

(thislinkthingisanoying, I wonder if this will let me edit?).​​

nickcastleton

Other/explain

artan42 wrote: »

• I think the Defiant image they show is from the Terran data core, i.e. the Defiant after the Terrans have had 101 years to tinker with it. DSC hasn't yet shown anything that appeared previously (other than the Klingons I know) but I doubt an episode tying back so neatly with IaMD is going to use a different Constitution Class model for no reason.
• Its possible its been modified and even still active, technally it would be 100 years old by then.
• With this being 193 years after IaMD unfortunately I can't see any of the ENT cast appearing (did T'Pol, Phlox, or Savol survive IaMD? I can't remeber).
  Savol was killed in a attempted destruction of the Defiant the other two may be dead or executed as they were both captured.
  
• I wonder if Lorca wanted to recruit the Terrans or the Rebels to the Prime Universe for the war or if he's just pushing the spore drive as far as he can. I still don't think he's from the MU.
  Never through of that a good theory.
  
• Why is OfficerMcshroomface the only one who can operate the Spore Drive? Can't you stick a port in anyone to get home?
  hes classed as a augment not the Admiral in a earlier episode says he genitally modified which as we know is illegal
  
• Is nobody concerned with the ISS Discovery being in the Prime Universe at the moment?
  Well its one ship i doubt it will last long against either the klingons or starfleet.
  
• I dunno about this whole Voq thing. I found Kol and T'Kuvma to be reasonably interesting but the rest of the Klingons just bore me. I mean the producers just couldn't win, you make a new race and a new war people bit.ch about the Xindi all over again, you keep them the same and there's nothing new, so we get VGR and ENT all over again, and so you change things up and you get bitc.hing about change.
  [/list]Im not happy about it either i hope its resolved soon.
  

  starswordc wrote: »

  Well I'll be damned. A good episode overall, but...
  Bury Your **** trope.

  
  The trope you're looking for is this one. Nobody gets exemptions from it.
  No a happy same sex couple and one of them dies tragically is a Trope in its own.
  
  (thislinkthingisanoying, I wonder if this will let me edit?).​​

artan42

nickcastleton wrote: »

No a happy same sex couple and one of them dies tragically is a Trope in its own.

Only if you hold some people as less disposable than others. Fridgeing secondary characters for the development of primary characters is a perfectly good story telling technique and both Ash and Stammats can get some decent development out of a secondary characters death.

Preserving characters solely because of a trait means they only existed to fill the wanted slot for that trait in the first place. Being able or willing to effect permanent change on them means they have impact beyond box ticking.

Edit: I don't think either Stammats or the Doc (what ever his name was) were box tickers, I'm saying if you think killing them off leaves a box unticked then you've diminished their impact. That's why I think most of the examples of the linked trope (that the forum will censor) are immaterial (and thus the trope dosn't exist).​​

nickcastleton

Other/explain

valoreah wrote: »

evilmark444 wrote: »

2) It's official, they're fraking up the Connie too ...

We didn't see much, but so far it doesn't look too far off.

that image and his face, its almost like a fan has seen it and thought "oh TRIBBLE this TRIBBLE"

artan42

So the Federation refits the Conni after what, 20 years and that's all fine but the Empire refits it after 101 years and it's suddenly unacceptable?

The Federation strips it back to its bones and builds a brand new ship in 20ish years and that's fine but the Empire extends the pylons and adds pods, slopes the deflector, mods the end of the nacelles, and cuts three slots in the saucer all in 101 years and it's suddenly unacceptable?​​

jiralinria

I enjoyed the episode

Good episode! Can't wait for the next and hopefully more directed by Jonathan Frakes

evilmark444

I enjoyed the episode

artan42 wrote: »

So the Federation refits the Conni after what, 20 years and that's all fine but the Empire refits it after 101 years and it's suddenly unacceptable?

The Federation strips it back to its bones and builds a brand new ship in 20ish years and that's fine but the Empire extends the pylons and adds pods, slopes the deflector, mods the end of the nacelles, and cuts three slots in the saucer all in 101 years and it's suddenly unacceptable?​​

If it's a Terran refit of some kind then I can live with it, the problem is I don't think that's their intention.

artan42

evilmark444 wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

So the Federation refits the Conni after what, 20 years and that's all fine but the Empire refits it after 101 years and it's suddenly unacceptable?

The Federation strips it back to its bones and builds a brand new ship in 20ish years and that's fine but the Empire extends the pylons and adds pods, slopes the deflector, mods the end of the nacelles, and cuts three slots in the saucer all in 101 years and it's suddenly unacceptable?

If it's a Terran refit of some kind then I can live with it, the problem is I don't think that's their intention.

It's after they've gone over the Terran datacore and presumably they wouldn't know the Defiant even made it over until after they'd looked in there (IaMD didn't have any PT stuff in it).

Though the bigger issues is obviously if the Defiant was about a century more advanced than the NX era stuff and the TE has had it for so long, why did they still build Discovery and Shenzhou? The latter is apparently much older than the Conni or Crossfield. Shouldn't they be building Galaxys and New Orleans by now with a centurys advantage?

valoreah wrote: »

I don't think the minor variations we can see are worth going all ape-**** over.

Even for me it's too much if it's the PT one they're showing (I struggle to get any hint that it is though from the episode). We've seen the Defiant very clearly in Blu-ray quality on TOS Remastered and ENT as a fully focused CGI model and it does not look like that.

So far only two relics have been seen on DSC, Sarrek and Cornwall (I assume she's the Cornwall from TOS) and they both look as they did in TOS, TNG, and TKT. Everything else is new; new tec, new ships, new characters, new places so I don't care about the aesthetics.​​

nickcastleton

Other/explain

artan42 wrote: »

Though the bigger issues is obviously if the Defiant was about a century more advanced than the NX era stuff and the TE has had it for so long, why did they still build Discovery and Shenzhou? The latter is apparently much older than the Conni or Crossfield. Shouldn't they be building Galaxys and New Orleans by now with a centurys advantage?
​​

Well since they still haven't defeated the rebels (andorians Vulcans and what not) plus even with the plans of the connie theres no guarantee they could build it with the technology they had in the Nx era in fact it may be that Sato held back the designs since the ship was her only leverage to hold power, we just dont know.

thay8472

artan42 wrote: »

It's after they've gone over the Terran datacore and presumably they wouldn't know the Defiant even made it over until after they'd looked in there (IaMD didn't have any PT stuff in it).

Though the bigger issues is obviously if the Defiant was about a century more advanced than the NX era stuff and the TE has had it for so long, why did they still build Discovery and Shenzhou? The latter is apparently much older than the Conni or Crossfield. Shouldn't they be building Galaxys and New Orleans by now with a centurys advantage?

----

Even for me it's too much if it's the PT one they're showing (I struggle to get any hint that it is though from the episode). We've seen the Defiant very clearly in Blu-ray quality on TOS Remastered and ENT as a fully focused CGI model and it does not look like that.

So far only two relics have been seen on DSC, Sarrek and Cornwall (I assume she's the Cornwall from TOS) and they both look as they did in TOS, TNG, and TKT. Everything else is new; new tec, new ships, new characters, new places so I don't care about the aesthetics.​​

----

Yeah, Lorca implied he knew about this ... how can he know about this? From the discoveries perspective, the incident with the Defiant hasn't happened yet.

As the other guy said (can't remember your handle - sorry) Maybe Sato released technology over time, while giving her loyal subjects 'better' technology.

theraven2378

I enjoyed the episode

I want the Discovery MU uniforms

theraven2378

I enjoyed the episode

The rebellion of the TE's subject races may have had something to do with the TE not having a full fleet of Connies

nommo

OMG I forgot all about ST:Discovery returning this soon.

I'm going to view the episode right after completing my dailies.

I've enjoyed about half the episodes so far.

So is this Season 2 or 2nd half of season 1?

redvenge

reyan01 wrote: »

Couldn't care less about the supposed minor alterations to the USS Defiant; as @artan42 said, it's been there for over a century. Hardly a big stretch of the imagination to think it underwent a few modifications.

Not buying it.

Any significant change to the ship and they would not recognize it as being from the "original" universe. It would just be another alien ship. These sensors can't even look inside a space whale, so any significant change to the Defiant would just make it an alien ship with the name "Defiant" written on it.

Or magic sensors and hack writing. Could be that too.

artan42

thay8472 wrote: »

Yeah, Lorca implied he knew about this ... how can he know about this? From the discoveries perspective, the incident with the Defiant hasn't happened yet.

This was after he read the datacore.

thay8472 wrote: »

As the other guy said (can't remember your handle - sorry) Maybe Sato released technology over time, while giving her loyal subjects 'better' technology.

It seems like the most likely explanation I suppose.

redvenge wrote: »

Not buying it.

Any significant change to the ship and they would not recognize it as being from the "original" universe. It would just be another alien ship. These sensors can't even look inside a space whale, so any significant change to the Defiant would just make it an alien ship with the name "Defiant" written on it.

You've seen the picture, it's a few posts ahead. Not only is it instantly recognisable as Federation it's also almost un-altered from its previous design so still recognisable as a Conni. From a wireframe diagram the only differences between the standard Conni and the Defiant are extended pylons with added pods, sloping the deflector, mods to the end of the nacelles, and three slots cut into the saucer. There's fewer difference there than between the TOS and TMP Connies.

redvenge wrote: »

Or magic sensors and hack writing. Could be that too.

'Cos that would really be a first for Star Trek right?​​

redeyedraven

I enjoyed the episode

artan42 wrote: »

So the Federation refits the Conni after what, 20 years and that's all fine but the Empire refits it after 101 years and it's suddenly unacceptable?

The episode was not clear on that matter.
They were looking at the picture of the USS Defiant, not the ISS Defiant, meaning the picture shown might be a reference from their own non-MU database.

And it still looks very close to a mix between the original and the refitted Constitution. The pylons look a bit different, but in DIS the pylons of Starfleet-ships are often a bit more elaborate with extras on them.



And IMO they actually would have another opportunity to end the war now. If in the MU, T'Kuvma is still alive, and they capture him before they return into their universe, they could fool the klingons into surrender.

artan42

redeyedraven wrote: »

They were looking at the picture of the USS Defiant, not the ISS Defiant, meaning the picture shown might be a reference from their own non-MU database.

This display is only shown after they even learn about its presence so they're not going to bother showing the Prime version of it. It won't help to see what they're looking for if they showed a picture of it from the PU 100 years from the future relative to it's present age.​​

redvenge

valoreah wrote: »

I think it disingenuous to say looking at that image you don't recognize it as a Federation starship.

artan42 wrote: »

You've seen the picture, it's a few posts ahead. Not only is it instantly recognisable as Federation it's also almost un-altered from its previous design so still recognisable as a Conni. From a wireframe diagram the only differences between the standard Conni and the Defiant are extended pylons with added pods, sloping the deflector, mods to the end of the nacelles, and three slots cut into the saucer. There's fewer difference there than between the TOS and TMP Connies. ​​

reyan01 wrote: »

Except that the graphic clearly displays not only 'USS Defiant' but also her registration number and 'Consitution class'

You guys mean the ship that looks exactly like all the other Mirror Universe Terran ships? How can they tell it isn't built by the MIRROR EMPIRE, since they are in a MIRROR UNIVERSE.

ALL THE MIRROR SHIPS LOOK LIKE FED SHIPS. THAT IS THE POINT OF THE MIRROR-VERSE. Somehow, the computer magically determined this ship was NOT build like all the others and was from the "original" universe. To do that, it would have to externally resemble the Defiant to an exact degree. Otherwise, why isn't it some Mirror variant? How can the computer tell the difference between Federation and Terran ships since the sensors cannot penetrate a freakin space whale?

redeyedraven

I enjoyed the episode

artan42 wrote: »

This display is only shown after they even learn about its presence so they're not going to bother showing the Prime version of it. It won't help to see what they're looking for if they showed a picture of it from the PU 100 years from the future relative to it's present age.​​

That's a fairly wobbly assumption. They confirmed an ISS Defiant to exist as well, referenced the USS Defiant and displayed a picture of the latter one. No refit was mentioned, and they also didn't say it looks different from other Constitution-class vessels, which already exist in the DIS-timeframe.

artan42

redeyedraven wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

This display is only shown after they even learn about its presence so they're not going to bother showing the Prime version of it. It won't help to see what they're looking for if they showed a picture of it from the PU 100 years from the future relative to it's present age.

That's a fairly wobbly assumption. They confirmed an ISS Defiant to exist as well, referenced the USS Defiant and displayed a picture of the latter one. No refit was mentioned, and they also didn't say it looks different from other Constitution-class vessels, which already exist in the DIS-timeframe.

Because that's what they're calling it. The USS Defiant. They're still looking for it as it is, as the ISS Defiant. There's absolutely no need to mention a refit or to compare it with existing Connis because that's not relevant, they're showing a picture of it.

redvenge wrote: »

You guys mean the ship that looks exactly like all the other Mirror Universe Terran ships? How can they tell it isn't built by the MIRROR EMPIRE, since they are in a MIRROR UNIVERSE.

ALL THE MIRROR SHIPS LOOK LIKE FED SHIPS. THAT IS THE POINT OF THE MIRROR-VERSE. Somehow, the computer magically determined this ship was NOT build like all the others and was from the "original" universe. To do that, it would have to externally resemble the Defiant to an exact degree. Otherwise, why isn't it some Mirror variant? How can the computer tell the difference between Federation and Terran ships since the sensors cannot penetrate a freakin space whale?

You know ships have ident codes and so on right? It's how they know who's calling when they get hailed. You do understand what a database is right? I can't see it'd be a secret that the USS Defiant was from another world (which it wasn't as that was in the logs). Plus there was all that stuff about quantum signatures at the beginning.

And how can you not grasp that, yes, the sensors are bloody magical and fulfil exactly what the plot needs them to do every single episode, without fail, until such a time as the plot required them to not work. It's like you've never seen the franchise and also don't know what a narrative convenience is.
The show is not a 40 minute documentary about sensors, it's an adventure and exploration show with magic to get the plot to where it needs to be.​​