Was it not because Romulans? I remember seeing a Romulan among the Vulcans. I could see Romulans agents being the reason for the Military group.
Administrator V'Las was the head of the Vulcan High Command in the mid-22nd century. In that capacity, he entered into a conspiracy with Talok, a deep-cover Romulan operative, to facilitate the Vulcan invasion of Andoria and the subjugation of the Vulcan people by the Romulans. They planned to attack Andoria, tricking the Vulcan High Council into believing that the Andorians were developing a planet-destroying weapon based on Xindi technology.
As these plans were developing, agents loyal to V'Las bombed Earth's embassy and framed the Syrrannite T'Pau for the act. The Syrrannites' base was subsequently destroyed by the Vulcan High Command to cover up their involvement in the bombing of the embassy.
During the Vulcan attack on Andoria, Archer and T'Pau brought the writings of Surak, the Kir'Shara, into the High Command's headquarters. The writings within the Kir'Shara justified the Syrranites' position and enabled Minister Kuvak to challenge V'Las' increasingly illogical behavior that was threatening war with both Andor and Earth. The this resulted in V'Las being fired and kicked off the Vulcan Reformation, initiating a widespread return to the "true teachings" of Surak among the Vulcans.
I think that Romulan influence was around for quite some time, which is why I feel the Vulcans behaved in the way they did, and their somewhat arrogant mentality....the Romulans, being the masters pulling the puppet strings.
and that was the same T'Pau we saw in "Amok Time", as an old women, right?
It's a great theory, and could be true - although it does assume that he must have been in the 'prime' universe for some time; he has a long history, both professional and (by all appearances) romantic, with Admiral Deathflag. As for the scar, I assumed that she was surprised by it because it was new to her and something he received subsequent to the last time they saw each other.
She says in the episode that he "has changed". She noticed something was off with their lovemaking. I'm not sure they had that kind of intimate relationship since the Bonham was destroyed.
I think Mirror Lorca is a master dissembler, a liar of expert skill. Something he cultivated to rise in the ranks of the Terran Empire. He is able to read people and has a significant amount of charisma.
Whilst the MU does tend to shadow the 'Prime' universe to a degree, I really can't beleive that Lorca and Admiral Deathflag would have had exactly the same relationship/history in both universes. These two were clearly intimately familiar with each other.
True. But it could have been regular Lorca who started the relationship and Mirror Lorca is good enough at reading people to 'fake it'. The Lorca we see is usually hiding in his office unless duty calls him to the bridge. We also see him manipulate and use people constantly.
Personally, I would be impressed if the Lorca we see is Mirror Lorca. Rather than the tired "trauma happens; dude goes crazy; crazy means evil" that is fairly played out, we have "dude is from evil universe and is trying to not only survive, but thrive within the ranks of the peace-nik Starfleet". That would be a much more satisfying story and clever writing. A fairly fresh take on the 'wolf among the sheep' concept, yet the wolf must protect the sheep to ensure it's own survival.
Was it not because Romulans? I remember seeing a Romulan among the Vulcans. I could see Romulans agents being the reason for the Military group.
Administrator V'Las was the head of the Vulcan High Command in the mid-22nd century. In that capacity, he entered into a conspiracy with Talok, a deep-cover Romulan operative, to facilitate the Vulcan invasion of Andoria and the subjugation of the Vulcan people by the Romulans. They planned to attack Andoria, tricking the Vulcan High Council into believing that the Andorians were developing a planet-destroying weapon based on Xindi technology.
As these plans were developing, agents loyal to V'Las bombed Earth's embassy and framed the Syrrannite T'Pau for the act. The Syrrannites' base was subsequently destroyed by the Vulcan High Command to cover up their involvement in the bombing of the embassy.
During the Vulcan attack on Andoria, Archer and T'Pau brought the writings of Surak, the Kir'Shara, into the High Command's headquarters. The writings within the Kir'Shara justified the Syrranites' position and enabled Minister Kuvak to challenge V'Las' increasingly illogical behavior that was threatening war with both Andor and Earth. The this resulted in V'Las being fired and kicked off the Vulcan Reformation, initiating a widespread return to the "true teachings" of Surak among the Vulcans.
I think that Romulan influence was around for quite some time, which is why I feel the Vulcans behaved in the way they did, and their somewhat arrogant mentality....the Romulans, being the masters pulling the puppet strings.
and that was the same T'Pau we saw in "Amok Time", as an old women, right?
It's not known how much influence Talok had on V'Las or if V'Las always had this in him and just needed the right excuse to push forward with a plan. But that was part of the problem, the other part was the Vulcan Logic of the other members of the High Command, the others didn't seem to mind V'Las acting the way he did except one who questioned V'Las' logic on the matter.
V'Las is clearly very well trained in deception and manipulation to get what he wanted and he almost got away with it if it weren't for true Vulcan patriots who didn't want to see V'Las take Vulcan to war with the Andorians.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Was it not because Romulans? I remember seeing a Romulan among the Vulcans. I could see Romulans agents being the reason for the Military group.
Administrator V'Las was the head of the Vulcan High Command in the mid-22nd century. In that capacity, he entered into a conspiracy with Talok, a deep-cover Romulan operative, to facilitate the Vulcan invasion of Andoria and the subjugation of the Vulcan people by the Romulans. They planned to attack Andoria, tricking the Vulcan High Council into believing that the Andorians were developing a planet-destroying weapon based on Xindi technology.
As these plans were developing, agents loyal to V'Las bombed Earth's embassy and framed the Syrrannite T'Pau for the act. The Syrrannites' base was subsequently destroyed by the Vulcan High Command to cover up their involvement in the bombing of the embassy.
During the Vulcan attack on Andoria, Archer and T'Pau brought the writings of Surak, the Kir'Shara, into the High Command's headquarters. The writings within the Kir'Shara justified the Syrranites' position and enabled Minister Kuvak to challenge V'Las' increasingly illogical behavior that was threatening war with both Andor and Earth. The this resulted in V'Las being fired and kicked off the Vulcan Reformation, initiating a widespread return to the "true teachings" of Surak among the Vulcans.
I think that Romulan influence was around for quite some time, which is why I feel the Vulcans behaved in the way they did, and their somewhat arrogant mentality....the Romulans, being the masters pulling the puppet strings.
and that was the same T'Pau we saw in "Amok Time", as an old women, right?
It's not known how much influence Talok had on V'Las or if V'Las always had this in him and just needed the right excuse to push forward with a plan. But that was part of the problem, the other part was the Vulcan Logic of the other members of the High Command, the others didn't seem to mind V'Las acting the way he did except one who questioned V'Las' logic on the matter.
V'Las is clearly very well trained in deception and manipulation to get what he wanted and he almost got away with it if it weren't for true Vulcan patriots who didn't want to see V'Las take Vulcan to war with the Andorians.
Just like today's politicians, mainly puppets who mindlessly follow their higher ups, aka special interest, really.
All one has to do is say some really good words, dangle some sort of reward/punishment, and you can get a politician to run over their own grandmothers. Probably the same with those particular Vulcans, especially since the ENT era Vulcans all seemed to act like smegheads.
I feel the need to mention that even as late as the 2370's there were still extremist groups among the Vulcans who believed in Vulcan superiority and purity, such a the Vulcan Isolationist Movement.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
Yh been rewatching tos n noticed that trianglur agoniser on there belts. If lorca is mirror counterpart it would better explain why he blew up his last ship with such little remorse. That action seemed very unstarfleet like when they talked about it. Frakes says disco is going to the universe so maybe theres goning to be a rescue for prime lorca
Uurrg. I know they won't be able to resist the bloody Mirror Universe, but I really wish they would. Even the TOS one was godsawful.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
They've already said there'll be a Mirror episode, and hinted at it being a mini-arc. yeah, it's overused but it's almost compulsory now along with warp drive and phasers :P
Why are they trying to make Captain Lorca so very unlikeable? I'm pretty sure he expected the meeting to be a trap before the admiral even left the Discovery. And he refuses to make a rescue attempt because he doesn't want to lose his command. Ah and oh yes, he's a psycho.
Adding this to the usual plethora of inconsistencies, like a holodeck in the TOS era, turns this into the worst episode so far.
3/10
Like I said in another posting, on the psycho scale, I give the captain 4.5 out 5 chainsaws.
TRIBBLE: We enjoy pissing off the fans.
Right? In hindsight even the sex seemed manipulative. He wanted to get her off his back, to make her overcome her concerns...
Everything between Lorca and the Admiral, and about the events that followed, was extremely predictable.
So, yeah, that Spore Drive, didn't Burnham just release that creature?! And now they're jumping anyway!? Why, at least I didn't totally hate on Burnham, this time. She was half-way likeable even.
Oh, and wanting to see something matching the era, not to mention likeable characters, and not generic sci fi, is not zealous. :P
So, yeah, that Spore Drive, didn't Burnham just release that creature?! And now they're jumping anyway!? Why, at least I didn't totally hate on Burnham, this time. She was half-way likeable even.
Did you miss some part of the previous episode?
They invented a gene therapy based on Ripper's DNA and used it on Stamets so he could take on the role of spore drive navigator.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
So, yeah, that Spore Drive, didn't Burnham just release that creature?! And now they're jumping anyway!? Why, at least I didn't totally hate on Burnham, this time. She was half-way likeable even.
Did you miss some part of the previous episode?
They invented a gene therapy based on Ripper's DNA and used it on Stamets so he could take on the role of spore drive navigator.
Did you miss some part of the previous episode? Seriously, it's the creature that holds the huge galaxy map inside itself. No map, no jump.
So, yeah, that Spore Drive, didn't Burnham just release that creature?! And now they're jumping anyway!? Why, at least I didn't totally hate on Burnham, this time. She was half-way likeable even.
Did you miss some part of the previous episode?
They invented a gene therapy based on Ripper's DNA and used it on Stamets so he could take on the role of spore drive navigator.
Did you miss some part of the previous episode? Seriously, it's the creature that holds the huge galaxy map inside itself. No map, no jump.
Come to think of it, they were rather inconsistent with this. First they said the 'missig component' was the creature (because it was housing the galaxy map); then they kinda shifted to just needing a living entity; and, last installment, that booth was totally empty when they jumped.
So... if they can now jump without creature -- without ANY creature -- why isn't this Spore Drive on all their ships now?! Part of the charm of the Spore Drive was, that its Deus Ex Machina effect was tempered by needing an extremely rare obtainable being for navigation. That's out of the window too, I guess (and while that window/airlock is still open, let's toss out that faux D7 too).
For an Ep. all about Vulcans, logic appeared the great absentee here.
What is it with the D7 that has peoples knickers in such a twist? It's clearly not the same ship and it's not even a Klingon name.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
So, yeah, that Spore Drive, didn't Burnham just release that creature?! And now they're jumping anyway!? Why, at least I didn't totally hate on Burnham, this time. She was half-way likeable even.
Did you miss some part of the previous episode?
They invented a gene therapy based on Ripper's DNA and used it on Stamets so he could take on the role of spore drive navigator.
Did you miss some part of the previous episode? Seriously, it's the creature that holds the huge galaxy map inside itself. No map, no jump.
Come to think of it, they were rather inconsistent with this. First they said the 'missig component' was the creature (because it was housing the galaxy map); then they kinda shifted to just needing a living entity; and, last installment, that booth was totally empty when they jumped.
So... if they can now jump without creature -- without ANY creature -- why isn't this Spore Drive on all their ships now?! Part of the charm of the Spore Drive was, that its Deus Ex Machina effect was tempered by needing an extremely rare obtainable being for navigation. That's out of the window too, I guess (and while that window/airlock is still open, let's toss out that faux D7 too).
For an Ep. all about Vulcans, logic appeared the great absentee here.
two reasons:
1) I can't imagine taking out warp cores and replacing them with spore cores is an easy-done in a weekend project.
2) I'd also imagine that while Stamets has checked out medically they noticed the change in personality and want to keep an eye on him to make sue nothing is wrong before having more people shoot alien DNA into them.
Bonus 3) Lorca knows he super valuable to star fleet as he's the only one with the drive. The minute that drive becomes standard issue his latitude to act as he sees fit withers. He may be slowing the process of getting that drive out to the fleet.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
They've already said there'll be a Mirror episode, and hinted at it being a mini-arc. yeah, it's overused but it's almost compulsory now along with warp drive and phasers :P
not necessarily 'compulsory' beyond "We already said we're going to do this". TNG never had a mirror episode, and neither did Voyager. Voyager had an episode that was "mirror like" (iirc, Living Witness) but it ran for 7 years without a Mirror episode, as did TNG.
it's FAR from 'Compulsory' beyond dangling something vaguely familiar as 'fanservice'.
Missing the point. When you say Star Trek to the average casual viewer "evil goatee Spock" et al is one of the things that has sunk into the public consciousness, and that's the folk they want to attract. Need to, even.
Did you miss some part of the previous episode? Seriously, it's the creature that holds the huge galaxy map inside itself. No map, no jump.
As I understood it, it was the connection to the mycelial network that provided the knowledge. Ergo, anyone/thing connected to the network would have access to the map.
You guys are meeting up in a dead end there.
The context was like this: Discovery doesn't have the computers to properly CALCULATE jumps over longer distances. Glenn achieved a breakthrough with Ripper and the interfacing-equipment, effectively acting as a bio-super-CPU.
Ripper did not hold a map, it acted as a navigational "supercomputer". They had the map even before they started using Ripper, it was out of sync and not properly navigatable though, leading to an almost deadly jump to a wrong (a VERY wrong) location.
Because they had the serum with Ripper-DNA ready and waking up Ripper was no option, Stamets (with his moral implications) simply injected it to himself and probably delivered the missing computing-power to jump into klingon space.
^ That's why I said, Stamets is still required. They can't jump without someone/thing in there.
Well, Stamets definately loves his mushrooms and proved he'd rather put himself at risk than anybody or anything else alive for "his" project (Stamets: courtesy of Starfleet tactical).
There is also the legal issue of Eugenics, of which Lorca was lambasted for by the Admiral.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
There is also the legal issue of Eugenics, of which Lorca was lambasted for by the Admiral.
Stamets is too obsessed with his science to care, and the admiral is going to end up either dead or saved but also blackmailed/manipulated by Lorca (as in "You choose. I get you out of here and you keep me on my post or I leave the klingons do whatever they please").
Also, because Lord Lorca would sound silly, Lorca will change his name into Garth lateron. /sarcasm
Y cant the klingons have a d7 class battlecruiser and a d7 class freighter, and a d7 class scout? Would be like having a escort salon. Escort sport and a escort 5 door car.
> @kekvin said: > Y cant the klingons have a d7 class battlecruiser and a d7 class freighter, and a d7 class scout? Would be like having a escort salon. Escort sport and a escort 5 door car.
Because dialogue called it a Klingon D7 class battlecruiser. VERY specific that.
Comments
I think that Romulan influence was around for quite some time, which is why I feel the Vulcans behaved in the way they did, and their somewhat arrogant mentality....the Romulans, being the masters pulling the puppet strings.
and that was the same T'Pau we saw in "Amok Time", as an old women, right?
I think Mirror Lorca is a master dissembler, a liar of expert skill. Something he cultivated to rise in the ranks of the Terran Empire. He is able to read people and has a significant amount of charisma.
True. But it could have been regular Lorca who started the relationship and Mirror Lorca is good enough at reading people to 'fake it'. The Lorca we see is usually hiding in his office unless duty calls him to the bridge. We also see him manipulate and use people constantly.
Personally, I would be impressed if the Lorca we see is Mirror Lorca. Rather than the tired "trauma happens; dude goes crazy; crazy means evil" that is fairly played out, we have "dude is from evil universe and is trying to not only survive, but thrive within the ranks of the peace-nik Starfleet". That would be a much more satisfying story and clever writing. A fairly fresh take on the 'wolf among the sheep' concept, yet the wolf must protect the sheep to ensure it's own survival.
At this point, I am rooting for Mirror Lorca.
It's not known how much influence Talok had on V'Las or if V'Las always had this in him and just needed the right excuse to push forward with a plan. But that was part of the problem, the other part was the Vulcan Logic of the other members of the High Command, the others didn't seem to mind V'Las acting the way he did except one who questioned V'Las' logic on the matter.
V'Las is clearly very well trained in deception and manipulation to get what he wanted and he almost got away with it if it weren't for true Vulcan patriots who didn't want to see V'Las take Vulcan to war with the Andorians.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Just like today's politicians, mainly puppets who mindlessly follow their higher ups, aka special interest, really.
All one has to do is say some really good words, dangle some sort of reward/punishment, and you can get a politician to run over their own grandmothers. Probably the same with those particular Vulcans, especially since the ENT era Vulcans all seemed to act like smegheads.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Everything between Lorca and the Admiral, and about the events that followed, was extremely predictable.
Oh, and wanting to see something matching the era, not to mention likeable characters, and not generic sci fi, is not zealous. :P
They invented a gene therapy based on Ripper's DNA and used it on Stamets so he could take on the role of spore drive navigator.
Did you miss some part of the previous episode?
Come to think of it, they were rather inconsistent with this. First they said the 'missig component' was the creature (because it was housing the galaxy map); then they kinda shifted to just needing a living entity; and, last installment, that booth was totally empty when they jumped.
So... if they can now jump without creature -- without ANY creature -- why isn't this Spore Drive on all their ships now?! Part of the charm of the Spore Drive was, that its Deus Ex Machina effect was tempered by needing an extremely rare obtainable being for navigation. That's out of the window too, I guess (and while that window/airlock is still open, let's toss out that faux D7 too).
For an Ep. all about Vulcans, logic appeared the great absentee here.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
two reasons:
1) I can't imagine taking out warp cores and replacing them with spore cores is an easy-done in a weekend project.
2) I'd also imagine that while Stamets has checked out medically they noticed the change in personality and want to keep an eye on him to make sue nothing is wrong before having more people shoot alien DNA into them.
Bonus 3) Lorca knows he super valuable to star fleet as he's the only one with the drive. The minute that drive becomes standard issue his latitude to act as he sees fit withers. He may be slowing the process of getting that drive out to the fleet.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Missing the point. When you say Star Trek to the average casual viewer "evil goatee Spock" et al is one of the things that has sunk into the public consciousness, and that's the folk they want to attract. Need to, even.
You guys are meeting up in a dead end there.
The context was like this: Discovery doesn't have the computers to properly CALCULATE jumps over longer distances. Glenn achieved a breakthrough with Ripper and the interfacing-equipment, effectively acting as a bio-super-CPU.
Ripper did not hold a map, it acted as a navigational "supercomputer". They had the map even before they started using Ripper, it was out of sync and not properly navigatable though, leading to an almost deadly jump to a wrong (a VERY wrong) location.
Because they had the serum with Ripper-DNA ready and waking up Ripper was no option, Stamets (with his moral implications) simply injected it to himself and probably delivered the missing computing-power to jump into klingon space.
Well, Stamets definately loves his mushrooms and proved he'd rather put himself at risk than anybody or anything else alive for "his" project (Stamets: courtesy of Starfleet tactical).
Stamets is too obsessed with his science to care, and the admiral is going to end up either dead or saved but also blackmailed/manipulated by Lorca (as in "You choose. I get you out of here and you keep me on my post or I leave the klingons do whatever they please").
Also, because Lord Lorca would sound silly, Lorca will change his name into Garth lateron. /sarcasm
You answered it with "it's clearly not the same ship".
> Y cant the klingons have a d7 class battlecruiser and a d7 class freighter, and a d7 class scout? Would be like having a escort salon. Escort sport and a escort 5 door car.
Because dialogue called it a Klingon D7 class battlecruiser. VERY specific that.