DEVs - Kobali Crisis - why oh WHY are these unskippable?!?

hanover2

I've played through these enough. On subsequent toons, I really don't think it's unreasonable that I be allowed to skip these. I would love to hear the rationale behind the fact that these seem to be arbitrarily locked out of skipping.

feiqa

From a story stand point I understand the request.

Mechanically? It is a story mission on a battle zone. Very much like other MMO's where other PC's will be playing and may alter play feel. Either by eliminating targets for you or making you need to compete for items you are looking for.

hanover2

Well, I'm willing to live with jarring leaps in the narrative, and to forgo any items I might collect on Kobali prime. I'm really finding all these Crisis acts to be an increasingly tedious slog after the first 4 or 5 times, and I can't believe I'm alone in that. Maybe what we need here is an "account" status where one toon checking it off is enough.

silverlobes#2676

hanover2 wrote: »

Well, I'm willing to live with jarring leaps in the narrative, and to forgo any items I might collect on Kobali prime. I'm really finding all these Crisis acts to be an increasingly tedious slog after the first 4 or 5 times, -and I can't believe I'm alone in that. Maybe what we need here is an "account" status where one toon checking it off is enough.

I played through Kobalistan once, on one character. I will not play the second half of the arc's missions again on any alt. It will all be skipped

*Extrabecause...

disqord#9557

I can't even begin to go into how much I absolutely despise the Kobali.

Anything the devs can do to let us not have to deal with it would be accepted with arms wide open.

ussvaliant#6064

Can we also ask for the ability to skip the New Romulus cutscene.

aspartan1

I left the game for a long time because of Delta and not being able to advance my toons despite completing missions numerous times and submitting many tickets all with the same response - sorry try again.... I only really came back after a friend agreed to help me no matter how many passes it took. I loathe the Kobali line with a passion and the lame timer based puzzle which leave no room for high pings. Given I spend about hundred a month in the game, it cost Cryptic a few thousand in revenue from me for such poor design choices...

lordsteve1

Not this again ffs.

A thread on this very subject just got closed not two days ago for crying out loud.

We get it some of you dislike the Kobali, and we get it done if you dislike ground content. Guess what? Other people gate the Borg arc or space content or PVE queues. But it's all part of the game. Look, this is a game with varied missions and plots and you might not like all of them. But if you want to progress your characters then you gotta put in the leg work. That's just how games work I'm afraid.

tigeraries

aspartan1 wrote: »

the lame timer based puzzle which leave no room for high pings

I dont recall those... do you mean the mine/bombs one with the red/green domes?

disqord#9557

lordsteve1 wrote: »

Not this again ffs.
A thread on this very subject just got closed not two days ago for crying out loud.

I'm gonna be the voice of reason here and say that maybe if so many people are complaining about something, there should be actions taken to change that something?

lordsteve1 wrote: »

We get it some of you dislike the Kobali, and we get it done if you dislike ground content. Guess what? Other people gate the Borg arc or space content or PVE queues. But it's all part of the game. Look, this is a game with varied missions and plots and you might not like all of them. But if you want to progress your characters then you gotta put in the leg work. That's just how games work I'm afraid.

Yeah, no. Almost all of the content you just mentioned can be skipped over almost completely. There is no good reason why these specific missions should be mandatory, especially considering how absolutely despised they are by some of the community. You can't actually play any of the Delta Quadrant or Iconian missions without suffering through the Kobali arc. You don't have to do any PvE content, you don't have to do the Borg story missions, but you do have to play through these specific missions to get to other content.

And don't try that whole "It's part of game" shtick. Skipping missions is ALSO part of the game. If you don't feel like doing Night of the Comet, you can SKIP it.
In your own words, "It's all part of the game."

xyquarze

While I do agree that the utter hatred of the Kobali is beyond me - sure, they pose ethical questions, but this is one of the more trekky things in game - it is quite inconsistent that you cannot skip them.

Also, while I am thankful that the forced patrols are gone (I liked most of them, but those that I disliked, I loathed), the "cutting Kobali in three pieces" is somewhat annoying. Yes, I can skip the next space mission so I can do Kobali in one sitting. Still, speaking of consistency it is strange.

saurializard

aspartan1 wrote: »

Given I spend about hundred a month in the game, it cost Cryptic a few thousand in revenue from me for such poor design choices...

Since it's been 3 years since Delta Rising and they've produced a lot of stuff since then, including "previously never thought to happen" content like T6 Constitution, NX-Refit and Kelvin Timeline goodies, more official actors, several remodels of the hero ships, etc. I don't think they have noticed.

warpangel

All missions should be skippable.

That's all I'm saying on this subject.

brian334

I don't get it. What's so horrible about the Kobali mussions that require skipping them? There are some less than great missions in that arc, but the same could be said of any story arc.

If you absolutely must skip a mission, start it then exit. You should discover the next story opened for you to start then exit, which should open the next episode, and keep doing that until you find one you like. So, the missions are skippable, but it takes two clicks instead of one. It's a non-problem that has been solved for you back in Season 2.

But you know what? Play the missions anyway. Even if they aren't as fun as other missions, they have their moments. In fact, I thoroughly enjoyed the Kobali arc because it was a good mix of solo accomplishments and team cooperative play. It's one of the few places in STO where players can play casually and still participate in team play without annoying the serious gamers who hate the less driven players dragging down the queues.

But, really, I'm dying of curiosity as to why, especially on Kobali, anyone wants to skip. "I did it 1000 times on other toons" sounds to me like a cop out because if that's the case then you should already know that starting and exiting a mission unlocks the next one.

alonar

Thing is they used to be seperate from the main story, then they decided to integrate them into it and make them unskipable for some reason.

saurializard

brian334 wrote: »

I don't get it. What's so horrible about the Kobali mussions that require skipping them? There are some less than great missions in that arc, but the same could be said of any story arc.

If you absolutely must skip a mission, start it then exit. You should discover the next story opened for you to start then exit, which should open the next episode, and keep doing that until you find one you like. So, the missions are skippable, but it takes two clicks instead of one. It's a non-problem that has been solved for you back in Season 2.

But you know what? Play the missions anyway. Even if they aren't as fun as other missions, they have their moments. In fact, I thoroughly enjoyed the Kobali arc because it was a good mix of solo accomplishments and team cooperative play. It's one of the few places in STO where players can play casually and still participate in team play without annoying the serious gamers who hate the less driven players dragging down the queues.

But, really, I'm dying of curiosity as to why, especially on Kobali, anyone wants to skip. "I did it 1000 times on other toons" sounds to me like a cop out because if that's the case then you should already know that starting and exiting a mission unlocks the next one.

There is the fact the adventure zone can be annoying as Vaadwaur are everywhere and respawn very quickly and the map is quite large, even with the transporters.

There is also the various moral dilemnas and how the Kobali behave with the Vaadwaur corpses, which is understandable.

That said, some even go to say they actually want to side with the Vaadwaur and either exterminate the Kobali with or bail out of the planet and let them resolve their conflict with the Vaadwaur by themselves (AKA letting the Vaadwaur exterminate them since the Kobali don't stand a chance without the Alliance).

Because apparently, pleasant, lying zombies with a culture viewed as disgusting, but who are willing to make compromises with everyone are worse than aliens that are naz... Thalmor by any other name (also, for some people, you can't even call them Thalmor, because that's rude and makes you intolerant. Because labeling a genocidal species having committed various war crimes against an entire quadrant is bad and makes you a terrible person, m'kay?).

bejaymac

I don't get it. What's so horrible about the Kobali mussions that require skipping them? There are some less than great missions in that arc, but the same could be said of any story arc.

Probably to do with them being "bodysnatchers" and it upsetting the f***ed up moral compasses of a number of the players.

But, really, I'm dying of curiosity as to why, especially on Kobali, anyone wants to skip. "I did it 1000 times on other toons" sounds to me like a cop out because if that's the case then you should already know that starting and exiting a mission unlocks the next one.

Originally only the first mission that took you to Kobali Prime was required as it was part of the DR arc, after you finished that mission you could carry on with the rest of the missions in the arc, the missions on Kobali Prime weren't part of the arc so most never went back until the anniversary mission.
As a soloist I had little real choice but go back as Cryptic added the Iconian marks to the final two missions there, and outside the summer and winter events that was my only source of them, so I have done them hundreds of times, yet even those toons are going to have to run the map "yet again" to clear them.

tigeraries

brian334 wrote: »

I don't get it. What's so horrible about the Kobali mussions that require skipping them?

Say your a new captain and you want to do a quest/mission that is after the Delta missions... you can not do it unless you can skip thru the Kobali arc... there is at least 1 mission that is required. you need to go to Kobali and do that ground mission... forget how long it was.

warpangel

brian334 wrote: »

I don't get it. What's so horrible about the Kobali mussions that require skipping them? There are some less than great missions in that arc, but the same could be said of any story arc.

What's so great about the kobali missions they shouldn't be just as skippable as everything else?

brian334

Moral delimma? Really?

There are accolades for the numbers and types of sentient beings your character kills, but what happens to a few corpses poses moral delimmas? They don't even kill anyone to gain a corpse. Not even the Vaudwaar which are bent on exterminating them. They have a whole facility filled with Vaudwaar who could have been silently slain and reanimated as Kobali, but the Kobali only animate those already dead; they don't kill to gain corpses.

So, please explain what moral delimma is at issue here, because the only immoral behavior I see in the story arc is done to the Kobali. Even their lie of ommission is not morally questionable. Do you go around explaining to every new species you meet where you acquired the material which engendered your offspring?


Vaudwaar are everywhere with fast respawns, yes. That's what makes it such a great place to play. You have to play smart, play hard, and play with friends, (or the random guys who happen to be there.) Here's a trick I have used with great success:

[Zone Chat] Hey, guys, I'm heading to Kobali to run some missions. Anyone looking for that Kill 1000 Vaudwaar accolade meet me near General Q.

You don't have to team up, (and shouldn't anyway.) You just do a quick outline of your goals and go. You can even repeat your zone chat request once you get there so the other players already in the zone can concentrate on your area. When five to twenty-five players are chewing up the trenches, that fast respawn makes the game fun.

Of course, you can solo too by moving fast and not stopping. It's really not that hard of an area to play, but is different from the solo maps; you have to just keep moving. Armor with regen helps. You can get some from Mine Enemy and The New Link.

As for playing a Vaudwaar: you can do this. Unfortunately, it won't change the fact that your story will still be about rescuing the Kobali. Why? Because the Vaudwaar are trying to exterminate them for the crime of having been dead once. For some unexplained reason that is offensive to Vaudwaar. The Kobali are clearly the victims of an aggressive species, one sect of which actively pursues genocide against them. There is no moral ambiguity here. IDIC demands that the Kobali should be preserved, as does the Federation creed which is that every species has the right to pursue their vision so long as it does not cause harm to others.

The Kobali hurt no one, the Vaudwaar attempt to murder them. How can there be any thought of moral ambiguity here? There isn't even a moral equivalence here. The Vaudwaar under the leadership of Gual are the bad guys here. Allowing them to exterminate the Kobali unopposed is an unsupportable position because as a member of Starfleet you are morally obligated to protect the weak.

And yes, I play a Klingon as my main, so Federation principles don't apply, except that I'm no longer a Klingon warrior, I'm an Alliance warrior.

hanover2

Please don't merge this with a closed thread.

ltminns

Can't merge into a closed Thread.

'Will no one rid me me of these meddlesome Threads.'

I go there every night, great runs.

silverlobes#2676

My thoughts, others are free to agree or disagree with me:

brian334 wrote: »

Moral delimma? Really?

There are accolades for the numbers and types of sentient beings your character kills

Kills against active combatants who will kill/incapacitate you, if you don't kill/incapacitate them first.

but what happens to a few corpses poses moral delimmas?

Yeah, funny that ^_^

They don't even kill anyone to gain a corpse. Not even the Vaudwaar which are bent on exterminating them. They have a whole facility filled with Vaudwaar who could have been silently slain and reanimated as Kobali, but the Kobali only animate those already dead; they don't kill to gain corpses.

Wasn't the implication from the missions (I can't log in to check, but might listen to a YouTube play-through) that the Vaadwaur pods were failing? And thus the people inside would die without intervention? If that's the case, then by not allowing the Vaadwaur to at least wake or repair the pods, they are indeed 'killing' to gain corpses, albeit with time as the actual killer.

So, please explain what moral delimma is at issue here, because the only immoral behavior I see in the story arc is done to the Kobali.

If you can't see the moral dilemma, and don't see the Kobali holding a load of people hostage, with the clear intent to use those resultant corpses for their own ends, then I doubt anyone will be able to explain it to you.

Even their lie of ommission is not morally questionable.

Yes it is, because it is, by title, a lie, and additionally, because it has impacts upon the lives of others. That is morally questionable.

Do you go around explaining to every new species you meet where you acquired the material which engendered your offspring?

An appeal to hypocrisy is a logical fallacy, so doesn't need addressing further.

Because the Vaudwaar are trying to exterminate them for the crime of having been dead once.

False. They are trying to get their people back, and prevent the Kobali from doing what they do to anyone else. Don't be disingenuous.

For some unexplained reason that is offensive to Vaudwaar. The Kobali are clearly the victims of an aggressive species, one sect of which actively pursues genocide against them. There is no moral ambiguity here.

More deliberate disingenuity.

IDIC demands that the Kobali should be preserved, as does the Federation creed which is that every species has the right to pursue their vision so long as it does not cause harm to others.

And that doesn't apply in this instance, because the Kobali are literally waiting on fresh meat to become available, which means allowing harm to come to the Vaadwaur in those tubes, as a result of their inaction.

The Kobali hurt no one, the Vaudwaar attempt to murder them. How can there be any thought of moral ambiguity here?

See above.

There isn't even a moral equivalence here. The Vaudwaar under the leadership of Gual are the bad guys here. Allowing them to exterminate the Kobali unopposed is an unsupportable position because as a member of Starfleet you are morally obligated to protect the weak.

The Vaadwaur are bad guys, but the ones in the tubes, don't deserve to be condemned because of the actions of others. Due Process, etc. The Vaadwaur in those stasis tubes are the weak, and thus as Starfleet officers, we are obliged to protect them.

And yes, I play a Klingon as my main, so Federation principles don't apply, except that I'm no longer a Klingon warrior, I'm an Alliance warrior.

Then in Klingon terms, what the Kobali are doing/not doing to/for the Vaadwaur in the tubes, is dishonorable.

protoneous

I think this thread is more applicable to the mission Of Bajor.

Each time I have to play through it I find myself cringing before, during and after. Sometimes getting really drunk helps, other times there's not much a person can do other than practice positive visualization... like imagining the place getting nuked from orbit.

The Kobali home world is a playground by comparison.

rattler2

I think everyone who objects to the Kobali keep forgetting that thanks to the player AND Captain Kim, the Vaadwaur stasis pods were discovered, and General Q'nel was confronted on it. Things changed after that. Until that point they only used the corpses of pods that failed. They weren't waiting for "fresh meat", they were taking advantage of what happened based on their own culture.

Did the Kobali make a mistake by not revealing the Vaadwaur Stasis Facility? Maybe.
Are they holding them hostage at gunpoint? No.
Are they sitting at each pod waiting for the exact moment it fails? No.
Do they have some ulterior, moustache twisting villian motive? No.

The fact of the matter is neither the Kobali or the Vaadwaur are innocent. The SCOPE of the "crimes", however, clearly point at the Vaadwaur as being the aggressor.

Could the Vaadwaur have negotiated for the release of their people? Yes.
Did they? No. They decided to try and exterminate the Kobali instead. Just like they were trying to do all over the quadrant to many other species, including the Krenim.

silverlobes#2676

rattler2 wrote: »

I think everyone who objects to the Kobali keep forgetting that thanks to the player AND Captain Kim, the Vaadwaur stasis pods were discovered, and General Q'nel was confronted on it. Things changed after that.

Did the Kobali immediately turn over all pods to the Vaadwaur? No? Then we still have a problem morally, and it's not one which Starfleet should be involved in, other than to mediate.

Until that point they only used the corpses of pods that failed. They weren't waiting for "fresh meat", they were taking advantage of what happened based on their own culture.

Is that a fact of the plot, or your assumption? The presence of Keten, for example, undercuts that notion.

He's in a Vaadwaur stasis pod. Why is there a functional stasis pod available for him? Who was in it before? If it was functional, it should still be occupied by a Vaadwaur. If it doesn't function, then Keten shouldn't be in it.

Did the Kobali make a mistake by not revealing the Vaadwaur Stasis Facility? Maybe.

Not 'maybe'. 'Yes'.

Are they holding them hostage at gunpoint? No.

Maybe not with literal weapons, but the Kobali are still preventing their recovery by the Vaadwaur. Why? Why not just let them come and take them?

Are they sitting at each pod waiting for the exact moment it fails? No.

That's a complete strawman. Are they literally 'sitting at each pod'? No. Are they monitoring the area? Absolutely. Have they had time to make assessments of the pods? Absolutely. Are they capable of being on hand when a pod fails? Absolutely so.

Maybe not literally 'sitting at each pod', but certainly as good as...

Do they have some ulterior, moustache twisting villian motive? No.

Yes.

The conversion of Vaadwaur (and other) corpses into Kobali.

Jhet'laya was certainly keeping her knowledge of Keten from Harry, so yes, manipulative and devious behaviour. Q'nel knew exactly what was going on, but kept things to himself, so again, manipulative and devious behaviour.

That they need corpses to be repurposed into Kobali, as I said in the other thread: The fact that their virus can convert a corpse of another species into a Kobali and reanimate it, should equally be capable of repairing any trauma to a Kobali corpse and reanimating it, even if that means a new personality. Even if the Kobali are sterile due to some past genetic error, there's no reason, plot aside, why they can't just recycle their own corpses.

The fact of the matter is neither the Kobali or the Vaadwaur are innocent. The SCOPE of the "crimes", however, clearly point at the Vaadwaur as being the aggressor.

With valid cause: The liberation of their people who were held captive while in stasis.

Could the Vaadwaur have negotiated for the release of their people? Yes.
Did they? No.

We don't know that, and anything the Kobali say on the matter, is questionable at best, for the above mentioned reason that they withhold information from those they claim as their allies, and from whom they receive succour. Would it be better if we, as Starfleet officers propose a summit and oversee negotiations? YES! Does the game allow us to do this? No.

They decided to try and exterminate the Kobali instead. Just like they were trying to do all over the quadrant to many other species, including the Krenim.

Obviously how they deal with others. Not saying that that's the right way to go about doing things (because it isn't) But to use the Vaadwaur behaviour as a tu quoque preventing them from recovering their people in stasis, is not a valid conclusion.

leemwatson

People complaining about the 'ethics' of the Kobali culture are plain hypocrits. Our characters have killed/murdered by the millions......at least the Kobali AND the Borg recycle their victims!

silverlobes#2676

leemwatson wrote: »

People complaining about the 'ethics' of the Kobali culture are plain hypocrits. Our characters have killed/murdered by the millions......at least the Kobali AND the Borg recycle their victims!

Big difference between those concepts, dude

Killing the enemy who seeks to kill you, is not murder... The only instances I can think of in game where Starfleet characters have the potential to commit murder, are Farek, Hassan the Undying, and the Benthan patrol ship. I can't think of any other instances where the story allows the player to deliberately murder others who are not actively seeking to kill/harm them So no, no hypocrisy there at all, and just for the lulz, check out 'tu quoque' in your search engine of choice

alexraptorr

leemwatson wrote: »

People complaining about the 'ethics' of the Kobali culture are plain hypocrits. Our characters have killed/murdered by the millions......at least the Kobali AND the Borg recycle their victims!

Gameplay and mechanics in an mmorpg =/= story and lore.