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What would an interstellar spaceship look like?

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    nikeixnikeix Member Posts: 3,972 Arc User
    Other than the usual anthrocentric egoism, there's no reason to send people at all. We're not that important to the whole endeavor, really. We're also not all that far off of developing reasonably creative devices that you could fire at neighboring stars without any organic components to speak of. Industrial-enterprise-in-a-box that can then set up von Neumann 'machine colonies' on site, scout the area and send back a first hand report on the local conditions (assuming you demand 'signing the cosmos' be an undertaking subservient to the home-system at all). If you just have to glorify the human component, then yeah, biological recreation from data and educating the new spawn via surgates/archieves seems a lot more easily achieved than cheat-coding all of physics. Bio-ethics freakouts at the prospect of synthetic humans are a lot easier to overcome than relativity. We're far more likely to expand across the gulf of space in spore form than to haul around wet sacks of meat for any meaningful distance.
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    lordrezeonlordrezeon Member Posts: 399 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    In most SF universes, there's only one way to exceed lightspeed (Known Space's hyperdrive, the Empire of Man and their Alderson Drive, the hyperspace of Babylon 5, etc). Brin's Five Galaxies universe is unusual in that there are at least five known drives; which ones you use dictate a lot of your ship's appearance (the Streaker, in Startide Rising, was a repurposed Thenannin hull, studded with long reality anchors used with the Level 3 hyperdrive so you could get back to your home continuum when you shut the drive down).

    I've read a book series called Odyssey One that used two types of FTL drives. Earth leap frogs the rest of the galaxy by developing a jump drive as their first prototype FTL, while the rest of the galaxy uses slower warp drives.

    I'm curious about what the five types of FTL in that Five Galaxies series are. I can only think of four types off the top of my head...
    -Star Trek style warp drives
    -wormhole drives where you are folding space to connect to points
    -alternate reality drives where you leave normal space to one with different laws of physics
    -teleportation jump drives
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    brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    I had left out fusion because we don't know how to do it yet. Recent work in Europe indicates that we may be able to develop a fusion reactor within 20 years, but I've been hearing that song for most of the last 50 years, so...

    Yeah, I agree. But there are folks actually doing it now. Fusion currently requires more power input than it generates, but the guys who know the science are acting really excited. Even if sustained fusion reactors can be built, it may be that due to the expense of construction and operation of the reactors it never becomes a viable power source.

    But there are other technical hurdles to overcome, one of which, as @johnsills has pointed out, is to maintain the health of our starfarers. We won't begin to solve the problems associated with life in space until people try to live there.
    nikeix wrote: »
    Other than the usual anthrocentric egoism, there's no reason to send people at all. We're not that important to the whole endeavor, really. We're also not all that far off of developing reasonably creative devices that you could fire at neighboring stars without any organic components to speak of. Industrial-enterprise-in-a-box that can then set up von Neumann 'machine colonies' on site, scout the area and send back a first hand report on the local conditions (assuming you demand 'signing the cosmos' be an undertaking subservient to the home-system at all). If you just have to glorify the human component, then yeah, biological recreation from data and educating the new spawn via surgates/archieves seems a lot more easily achieved than cheat-coding all of physics. Bio-ethics freakouts at the prospect of synthetic humans are a lot easier to overcome than relativity. We're far more likely to expand across the gulf of space in spore form than to haul around wet sacks of meat for any meaningful distance.

    Opinions vary. Personally, I have hope, based on what I have seen of human history, that some day we'll grow up and earn the right to grow across the galaxy. Right now we act like adolescents. We're the eighth grade class of the galaxy. By the time we seed life on another world we'll have grown up.

    In my opinion, it is pointless to send machines, no matter how well programmed. A machine, (well, except for Data,) can't marvel at a rainbow or watch the Great Red Spot on Jupiter with awe. Call it anthrocentric egoism if you like, (and I by no means wish to disparage your point of view, but wish only to express mine,) but what would machines do with the information if there are no humans to appreciate and value what they learn?

    Space exploration is not about learning about moons or re-labeling planets as Kuiper Belt Objects. It is about ensuring the survival and growth of humanity.

    Also, let me know when synthetic people become available, because I could use a new body: preferably one without arthritis.
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    smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,667 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    I don't think we're far from ready to send the first ships out of the Solar system. In fact, I believe that as soon as the first off-Earth colony proves viable we'll see the first ship head out to the stars. We aren't there yet, but the technological pieces are coming together.

    Everyone will immediately begin to mention propulsion technology as the limiting factor, but it isn't even close. We could currently put a ship with a .001g drive into operation, its ultimate speed only limited by its fuel. A ship which is 99% fuel could accelerate for years, achieving speeds which would result in a century or so of travel time to the many nearby stars.

    The power supply for such a ship would be a problem. Conventional nuclear reactors could do the job if they are breeder type reactors, but most radioactives used in conventional nuclear reactors have half-lives in the 5 year range, and you cannot carry extra fuel pellets because when they are needed they too will be depleted. But we are narrowing the gap on Fusion power, which may in just a few years begin to unleash great power. Current experimental fusion generators are kilometers long rings, which would not fit very well in a Borg Cube.

    We're also nowhere near achieving artificial gravity, but spin works for pseudo-gravity. Of course, the greater the radius, the less speed needed to generate centripetal force, so cylindrical or spherical shapes would have to spin very fast, even if large, and leave the majority of the vessel in reduced or negligible pseudogravity.

    And of course, there must be a self-sustaining habitat for a minimum of two hundred people if the eventual colony is to avoid inbreeding and genetic stagnation. So the habitat must be large, and if animals are going along for the ride their needs must be accomodated. At anything approaching interstellar speed, even microscopic dust becomes potentially lethal. Earth protects us with magnetic fields, and so can a spacecraft, but for every negatively charged ion such a screen would repel, it would attract a positively charged one. There must be a means for this material to miss the craft, which means there must be a hole in the center.

    So, it turns out there is an optimal shape for such a craft: the bicycle tire. Its ring shape makes pseudogravity easy and its internal volume would be at about the same centripetal acceleration. Its ring shape accomodates a ring shaped fusion reactor, and thrusters mounted on gimbals could be directed to spin up or down the vessel and even reverse to slow the craft at the so-called 'halfway point', (which is actually more than halfway because as fuel is consumed the thrusters become relatively more powerful, slowing down the craft faster than it could accelerate due to its vastly reduced mass.) Because 99% of the ship's mass would be fuel, storing it on the leading edge of the wheel would create an ablative shield for the bits of matter that don't bounce off the magnetic field generated by the electromagnets of the fusion ring.

    The problem of creating a self-sustaining biosphere seems to be far more daunting than the other technical hurdles, but given that single advance, (which won't happen until we live in space for a generation or two,) we already have the tdchnological capacity to do this. Heck, if we create self-sustaining biospheres, we'll never need a planet again: just Oort Cloud debris and an occasional venture into a star's gravity well for metals.

    We're not there yet, but we're close. Two generations at most, and I might live long enough to see my grandchildren go to the stars.

    From my own studies and research into Ufology, such a ship will make an engineer go "WTF?!" And many I seen in the sky are like pulsating orbs of light, it will look like magic to those unfamiliar with such ideas.

    And the ones I see are either/or ours (and those in charge not telling us, despite us paying for it....probably the 8 trillions the pentagon 'lost' going to them) or from another world. Either way, they are here, we are being lied to, and denied access to a superior energy source, far superior to oil or nuclear.
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    markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    lordrezeon wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    In most SF universes, there's only one way to exceed lightspeed (Known Space's hyperdrive, the Empire of Man and their Alderson Drive, the hyperspace of Babylon 5, etc). Brin's Five Galaxies universe is unusual in that there are at least five known drives; which ones you use dictate a lot of your ship's appearance (the Streaker, in Startide Rising, was a repurposed Thenannin hull, studded with long reality anchors used with the Level 3 hyperdrive so you could get back to your home continuum when you shut the drive down).
    I've read a book series called Odyssey One that used two types of FTL drives. Earth leap frogs the rest of the galaxy by developing a jump drive as their first prototype FTL, while the rest of the galaxy uses slower warp drives.

    I'm curious about what the five types of FTL in that Five Galaxies series are. I can only think of four types off the top of my head...
    -Star Trek style warp drives
    -wormhole drives where you are folding space to connect to points
    -alternate reality drives where you leave normal space to one with different laws of physics
    -teleportation jump drives
    I'll make a list of what I've seen in sci-fi and video games.

    [*]Warp drives and similar things
    [*]temporary wormhole creation
    [*]Stargate/B5-style hyperdrives where the ship enters hyperspace
    [*]gravity distortion drives that push ships using gravity waves, some examples are faster in deep space than near massive objects
    [*]Wing Commander style jump drives which don't really create wormholes as much as using natural weak points in space[/*]

    Then you have settings where it's the same basic style of drive, but with additional limitations and extra conditions, like needing nav beacons and stuff.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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    starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    Yeah, that hasn't been working out that well for poor Kim lately - the only reason she's still around is because the city's robots took a liking to her and helped her build a full-prosthetic body.

    And we're trying to figure it out based on known physics, because unknown physics can take us straight into Sufficiently Advanced Technology territory (although I'm hoping there doesn't turn out to be a stardrive that's powered by human sacrifice...).

    It is a shame that it Dresden Codak is only updated monthly since it is one of the better webcomics that I read. I personally wish that this was made into an actual PnP RPG.
    2009-01-27-advanced_dungeons_and_discourse.jpg

    For my ritual example, I was thinking of rituals that are a little less violent than human sacrifice like witchcraft or the alchemical circles from Fullmetal Alchemist.

    I started playing Stellaris a few weeks ago mainly due to its Megastructures where you can build Dyson Spheres (how Dyson originally envisioned them instead of what we have in STO), Ringworlds, and others. My main problem with the game is the random selection of which research you can do. The relevant point is that each civilization in the game is limited to Warp Drive, Hyperspace, and Wormhole Stations. Jump Drives and Psi Jump Drives are possible technologies that can be researched. Warp Drive is the standard FTL travel where you are not limited in anyway to where you can travel. Hyperspace is limited to certain routes you can travel. It might require travelling past 10 star systems to get to a star system that is 4 lightyears away. Wormhole stations require always building a wormhole station with the construction unit and requires jumping to and from the wormhole station. Jump Drives are improved versions of the Warp Drive, but can cause a certain endgame crisis similar to what happened in Warhammer 40k.
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    brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    When it comes to sci-fi, FTL travel tends toward the fantasy genera rather than science.

    Warp drive: As yet there is nothing in science which would begin to give hope it will ever be possible.

    Jump drive: Hyperspace remains as elusive as the luminiferous aether, and while folding space and jumping from one fold to the adjacent fold doesn't use hyperspace, we as of today have zero ideas how it might conceivably work. And psionics have been studied in great detail by people who were striving to prove it works, and still we have zero examples which have been credibly observed and documented.

    Wormholes can exist, supposedly, unless they are no more than errors in the poorly understood math which itself is based on conjecture and hope, but my understanding of how they are supposed to work is, matter goes in on one end and comes out the other as a stream of subatomic particles and energy waveforms.Which might turn out to be useful as a communication device, but I think I'll skip trying it out, if we could even figure out how to make or find one.

    Gravitic distortion might result in very fast drives, but they will be STL, not FTL. And again, we have no clue how to even begin experimenting with direct control of gravity.

    Any or all of the many options listed might work, but as of now FTL is fantasy. Waiting for a fantasy to come true might be fine for some, but I have discovered over the years that while working toward a goal sometimes fails, waiting on a fantasy to come true always fails.

    This is why I prefer to use logical extrapolations from current engineering, including the idea that the human interstellar empire will be founded on STL travel.

    From my own studies and research into Ufology, such a ship will make an engineer go "WTF?!" And many I seen in the sky are like pulsating orbs of light, it will look like magic to those unfamiliar with such ideas.

    And the ones I see are either/or ours (and those in charge not telling us, despite us paying for it....probably the 8 trillions the pentagon 'lost' going to them) or from another world. Either way, they are here, we are being lied to, and denied access to a superior energy source, far superior to oil or nuclear.

    The physics of suspension bridges and bicycle tires is well understood, and engineers are very good at scaling up and down. The limiting factor is structural strength and the ability of the material to resist fatigue over the duration of the mission. But within these limits extremely large structures can be built. Steel cable will suffice for a structure with a circumference of about a mile (1.6km) creating 1g of centripetal force. Heck, Golden Gate is bigger and it was built early in the last century, and it has withstood 1g acceleration with a variable intermittent load on it in three dimensions.

    Rather than WTF, an engineer will say, "Why bother me with this obsolete tech? I have much better materials and building techniques now!"

    As for UFO's, believe what you like, but it's going to be a belief, not science. Science requires recordable and reproduceable results. This doesn't mean, nor do I imply, that UFO's don't exist; to make such an assertion would again be a statement of belief and not science.

    But if I were an alien who came all the way here from wherever, why would I bother to hide? And what Terrestrial government could stop me from announcing myself? UFOlogy requires that the aliens secretly collude with governments because... well, I can't guess why. I'd broadcast a message to Earth on the radio frequencies humans love so much, and if any humans were stupid enough to try to shoot me I'd run away far faster than their primitive chemical rockets could chase me. I might even drop rocks on the launch sites if I were angry about it.

    So, while FTL may prove possible someday, somehow, we have zero science which says that we'll ever get to do it, aside from Alcubierre-White, which is still math. Math is a very powerful tool, but once upon a time the very best math proved that bumblebees can't fly.
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    jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,409 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    Math is a very powerful tool, but once upon a time the very best math proved that bumblebees can't fly.
    ...when considered as fixed-wing aircraft. Assumptions are all-important.

    However, your point is taken, as thus far Alcubierre-White warp theory is self-consistent - but then so are phlogiston and the luminiferous aether. Only experimentation proved those wrong. And only experimentation will prove or disprove Alcubierre's original work (White just worked up a refinement that reduced the exotic-matter requirement from roughly the same mass as Jupiter to less than a thousand kilos).

    Meanwhile, in designing a starship we must take what it will do into account. And without Sufficiently Advanced Technology, currently we're STL (especially since in the only math proved so far, if an Einstein-Rosen bridge exists it has a black hole at each end, making it rather less than useful for our purposes).
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    starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    nikeix wrote: »
    Other than the usual anthrocentric egoism, there's no reason to send people at all. We're not that important to the whole endeavor, really. We're also not all that far off of developing reasonably creative devices that you could fire at neighboring stars without any organic components to speak of. Industrial-enterprise-in-a-box that can then set up von Neumann 'machine colonies' on site, scout the area and send back a first hand report on the local conditions (assuming you demand 'signing the cosmos' be an undertaking subservient to the home-system at all). If you just have to glorify the human component, then yeah, biological recreation from data and educating the new spawn via surgates/archieves seems a lot more easily achieved than cheat-coding all of physics. Bio-ethics freakouts at the prospect of synthetic humans are a lot easier to overcome than relativity. We're far more likely to expand across the gulf of space in spore form than to haul around wet sacks of meat for any meaningful distance.

    That doesn't solve teh basic problem, Nike-the sun's going to run out. if we're still here when it does, we're toast (as a species).

    However, is that thousands of years, millions of years, billions of years, or some extremely long time frame where humans no longer exist? A more reasonable reason to leave is that all it takes is one unlucky asteroid or human stupidity to destroy the planet. If we have infested the galaxy, then no matter what happens on any planet or star system, the human race will survive until the galaxy is destroyed.
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    jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,409 Arc User
    "The Earth is just too small and fragile a basket for the human race to keep all its eggs in." - Robert Heinlein
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    mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    brian334 wrote: »
    Math is a very powerful tool, but once upon a time the very best math proved that bumblebees can't fly.
    ...when considered as fixed-wing aircraft. Assumptions are all-important.

    However, your point is taken, as thus far Alcubierre-White warp theory is self-consistent - but then so are phlogiston and the luminiferous aether. Only experimentation proved those wrong. And only experimentation will prove or disprove Alcubierre's original work (White just worked up a refinement that reduced the exotic-matter requirement from roughly the same mass as Jupiter to less than a thousand kilos).

    Meanwhile, in designing a starship we must take what it will do into account. And without Sufficiently Advanced Technology, currently we're STL (especially since in the only math proved so far, if an Einstein-Rosen bridge exists it has a black hole at each end, making it rather less than useful for our purposes).

    Well, the whole thing with the exotic matter is really the first thing we need to be able to make. Currently, one could as well argue that FTL is possible if we just could put a Unicorn in front of a cart. (Admittedly, the mathematical model behind the Alcubierre drive is a bit better.)
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
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    artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    From my own studies and research into Ufology, such a ship will make an engineer go "WTF?!" And many I seen in the sky are like pulsating orbs of light, it will look like magic to those unfamiliar with such ideas.

    And the ones I see are either/or ours (and those in charge not telling us, despite us paying for it....probably the 8 trillions the pentagon 'lost' going to them) or from another world. Either way, they are here, we are being lied to, and denied access to a superior energy source, far superior to oil or nuclear.

    Yeah sure, governments leak information up to an including nuclear secrets and you think they're keeping aliens from you.

    You want a 'superior energy source, far superior to oil or nuclear'? Get a scientific education and go make one instead of waiting for 'THE GUVERMET!!' to have it leaked for you. I guess international politics and finance have slipped past your basement but KSA is running out of oil and their property investments can't cover the shortfall in the long term, so it turns out real human scientists are working on as many energy sources as it's possible to make and guess what? None have been hidden or suppressed by 'THE GUVERMET!!' because that's not something they're able to do.

    I know this is a science fiction forum and this is a thread discussing interstellar travel but there's no need to introduce fantasy elements to it.

    As for your rely, let me guess, I'm either 'close minded for not believing in a magically powerful 'THE GUVERMET!!', a shill for 'THE GUVERMET!!' and/or the reptaloid overlords, or possibly a alien myself trying to prevent humanity from discovering our fiendish plans.

    Let me know when you've decided which one I am please.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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    smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,667 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    From my own studies and research into Ufology, such a ship will make an engineer go "WTF?!" And many I seen in the sky are like pulsating orbs of light, it will look like magic to those unfamiliar with such ideas.

    And the ones I see are either/or ours (and those in charge not telling us, despite us paying for it....probably the 8 trillions the pentagon 'lost' going to them) or from another world. Either way, they are here, we are being lied to, and denied access to a superior energy source, far superior to oil or nuclear.

    Yeah sure, governments leak information up to an including nuclear secrets and you think they're keeping aliens from you.

    You want a 'superior energy source, far superior to oil or nuclear'? Get a scientific education and go make one instead of waiting for 'THE GUVERMET!!' to have it leaked for you. I guess international politics and finance have slipped past your basement but KSA is running out of oil and their property investments can't cover the shortfall in the long term, so it turns out real human scientists are working on as many energy sources as it's possible to make and guess what? None have been hidden or suppressed by 'THE GUVERMET!!' because that's not something they're able to do.

    I know this is a science fiction forum and this is a thread discussing interstellar travel but there's no need to introduce fantasy elements to it.

    As for your rely, let me guess, I'm either 'close minded for not believing in a magically powerful 'THE GUVERMET!!', a shill for 'THE GUVERMET!!' and/or the reptaloid overlords, or possibly a alien myself trying to prevent humanity from discovering our fiendish plans.

    Let me know when you've decided which one I am please.​​

    ~yawns~
    dvZq2Aj.jpg
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    starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    From my own studies and research into Ufology, such a ship will make an engineer go "WTF?!" And many I seen in the sky are like pulsating orbs of light, it will look like magic to those unfamiliar with such ideas.

    And the ones I see are either/or ours (and those in charge not telling us, despite us paying for it....probably the 8 trillions the pentagon 'lost' going to them) or from another world. Either way, they are here, we are being lied to, and denied access to a superior energy source, far superior to oil or nuclear.

    Yeah sure, governments leak information up to an including nuclear secrets and you think they're keeping aliens from you.
    ​​

    That is assuming that the government agency in charge of keeping aliens secret are human. Michael Jackson didn't die. He just went back to his home planet. Also, how else do you explain musicians like Lady Gaga and most politicians?

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    smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,667 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    From my own studies and research into Ufology, such a ship will make an engineer go "WTF?!" And many I seen in the sky are like pulsating orbs of light, it will look like magic to those unfamiliar with such ideas.

    And the ones I see are either/or ours (and those in charge not telling us, despite us paying for it....probably the 8 trillions the pentagon 'lost' going to them) or from another world. Either way, they are here, we are being lied to, and denied access to a superior energy source, far superior to oil or nuclear.

    Yeah sure, governments leak information up to an including nuclear secrets and you think they're keeping aliens from you.
    ​​

    That is assuming that the government agency in charge of keeping aliens secret are human. Michael Jackson didn't die. He just went back to his home planet. Also, how else do you explain musicians like Lady Gaga and most politicians?

    ~double yawn~
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    brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    But my point here is to use what is known or which can logically be extrapolated from what is known. Any secrets are by their nature unknown.

    Is it possible to create an interstellar ship today? Well, yes, but no. You always learn to crawl before you learn to walk. So we need the baby steps, like extraterrestrial colonies on Luna and Mars, orbital and asteroid colonies, etc.

    We're ready for the first roll-over, if not yet ready to crawl, but just as with a baby, it all happens before you know it if you keep trying.
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    artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    artan42 wrote: »
    From my own studies and research into Ufology, such a ship will make an engineer go "WTF?!" And many I seen in the sky are like pulsating orbs of light, it will look like magic to those unfamiliar with such ideas.

    And the ones I see are either/or ours (and those in charge not telling us, despite us paying for it....probably the 8 trillions the pentagon 'lost' going to them) or from another world. Either way, they are here, we are being lied to, and denied access to a superior energy source, far superior to oil or nuclear.

    Yeah sure, governments leak information up to an including nuclear secrets and you think they're keeping aliens from you.

    You want a 'superior energy source, far superior to oil or nuclear'? Get a scientific education and go make one instead of waiting for 'THE GUVERMET!!' to have it leaked for you. I guess international politics and finance have slipped past your basement but KSA is running out of oil and their property investments can't cover the shortfall in the long term, so it turns out real human scientists are working on as many energy sources as it's possible to make and guess what? None have been hidden or suppressed by 'THE GUVERMET!!' because that's not something they're able to do.

    I know this is a science fiction forum and this is a thread discussing interstellar travel but there's no need to introduce fantasy elements to it.

    As for your rely, let me guess, I'm either 'close minded for not believing in a magically powerful 'THE GUVERMET!!', a shill for 'THE GUVERMET!!' and/or the reptaloid overlords, or possibly a alien myself trying to prevent humanity from discovering our fiendish plans.

    Let me know when you've decided which one I am please.​​

    ~yawns~

    Ah never mind then. It's merely trolling for atention and not a real opinion. Thank the gods for that, I was worried for humanites future recap from the world I such fantasy was held as genuine thought :D. Thank goodness you're just pulling our chains :D.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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    markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    But my point here is to use what is known or which can logically be extrapolated from what is known. Any secrets are by their nature unknown.

    Is it possible to create an interstellar ship today? Well, yes, but no.
    At any rate, guessing the shape of a ship starts with the purpose of the ship and the type of engines used.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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    jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,409 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    Yeah sure, governments leak information up to an including nuclear secrets and you think they're keeping aliens from you.​​
    More to the point, let's look at an actual US government conspiracy - the Watergate break-in. There were six people who were privy to those events, one of whom was the President, and all of whom had strong personal reasons to keep the entire affair under wraps (in order to avoid prison time).

    The six of them managed to keep the secret for less than two years.

    And someone wants me to believe that thousands of people in the exact same US government are hiding extraterrestrial spaceships from me? For decades?? Yeah, that violates Suspension of Disbelief right there.
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    legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,282 Arc User
    still never found those missing minutes from the watergate tapes, though, did they?​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
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    cheesebasketcheesebasket Member Posts: 1,101 Arc User
    it would totally look like high charity...xD
    The hamster will RULE ALLL....

    Mwahahahahahahaha
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    jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,409 Arc User
    still never found those missing minutes from the watergate tapes, though, did they?​​
    Well, no - they were erased. Maybe you kids these days don't know how those old-fashioned magnetic tapes worked, but once you erased something from one, it was gone, with no possibility of recovery.

    The entire event was pretty well reconstructed from the memories of the principals during their trial, though, so...
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
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    markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    Yeah sure, governments leak information up to an including nuclear secrets and you think they're keeping aliens from you.​​
    More to the point, let's look at an actual US government conspiracy - the Watergate break-in. There were six people who were privy to those events, one of whom was the President, and all of whom had strong personal reasons to keep the entire affair under wraps (in order to avoid prison time).

    The six of them managed to keep the secret for less than two years.

    And someone wants me to believe that thousands of people in the exact same US government are hiding extraterrestrial spaceships from me? For decades?? Yeah, that violates Suspension of Disbelief right there.
    Then you have stuff like Project Mogul... how long did THAT stay secret? And Blue Book which was created for the express purpose of looking for ETs...
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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    brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    But my point here is to use what is known or which can logically be extrapolated from what is known. Any secrets are by their nature unknown.

    Is it possible to create an interstellar ship today? Well, yes, but no.
    At any rate, guessing the shape of a ship starts with the purpose of the ship and the type of engines used.

    You are correct. I made a broad-brush proposal:

    Step One: Off Earth colonies in the Solar System, most specifically, on Mars and in the Asteroid Belt.

    Step Two: Develop self-sustaining extraterrestrial biospheres to support those colonies.

    Step Three: Learn to convert sterile inorganic dirt into living soil.

    Step Four A: Perfect fusion power generation enough to power the vessel and to power magnetic field coils designed to deflect subatomic particles which will impact the vessel on its journey. (@jonsills advocated for fission power as the most reliable known power supply, pointing out that fusion power has been around a long time but has not been made into either commercially or practically useful power generators.)

    Step Four B: Build a vessel shaped like a pneumatic bicycle wheel, large enough for a crew of 200, with the plants and animals needed to sustain them on the voyage and to serve as breeding stock at the destination world. Install ion motors on the outer perimeter mounted on gimbals so the direction of thrust can be varied and reversed. (@jonsills opined that Nerva type motors might be better.)

    Step Four C: Stack the 99% of the ship's mass which will be required to power the vessel for its hundred years between stars on the leading edge to act as a supply of fuel and mineral reserves, and concurrently to act as an ablative shield against impacts of objects not magnetically deflected.

    Step Four D: Load your crew and their farms and factories and hold the world's biggest Bon zvoyage party.

    Most of this we can do today; the rest is technical development requiring some trial and error to turn theory into practical engineering.

    That is how I envisioned what I consider a logical and feasable plan to go to the stars, and how I derived the basic shape of Ark II.
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    markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    For the world is hollow and I have touched the sky

    :p haha, that was essentially what that ep was about. Some race that lacked FTL decided to launch a colony ship but it took so long that they had several drastic cultural shifts before reaching their destination.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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    nikeixnikeix Member Posts: 3,972 Arc User
    At any rate, guessing the shape of a ship starts with the purpose of the ship and the type of engines used.

    It starts with do you presume 'gravity carpet'? Because the most implausible thing about Star Trek Ships isn't the FTL drive, its that decks are all aligned like a sailing ship with a uniform, external gravitic orientation ;). I mean that's just full blown magic right there.

    Though I'd say the bridges come a close second with the simultaneous insanities of being positioned on the surface of the hull as if the mark 1 eyeball has any utility in space and being big open spaces with no decent protective harnesses considering how incredibly often shaky cam tells us people are getting flung about.

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    nikeixnikeix Member Posts: 3,972 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    it doesn't in the end matter what does it, or how long it takes. the odds of humanity being extinct drop dramatically if we spread out, while the same odds increase geometrically the longer we confine ourselves to one planet.

    Which goes back to my initial point: If your goal is continuity of the species - be it genetically or culturally - you can mail machine colonies out that'll print new humans on site for billionths of the overhead of trying to ship meat. If its about the species then its not about us, specifically or individually, going. Its about moving eggs to other baskets and eggs ship better than adult chickens.

    We're seeing this same long hard look at ego vs. efficiency in lots of fields now. In the Air Force you have a whole culture of pilots who do not want to admit they're dinosaurs. That any airframe built without the necessities of hauling a pilot performs better in its intended role. Having your decision-making node black out or red out or just plain weigh a whole bunch cripples the functionality vs. an airframe that doesn't. At the moment that means you need to pay the weight/performance hit for remote operation, but instructed-autonomous is going to be a thing and it's going to displace one of THE great bastions of human ego.

    Baring a dramatic change in our understanding of the universe's unyielding logistical limitations, if we get out of this system at all, the 'we' that's going is gonna be data. Not archetypical dudebros in brightly colored uniforms setting sail on a sea of stars.

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