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Saavik and the Search For Spock (Jr.)

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    silverlobes#2676 silverlobes Member Posts: 1,953 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    While I agree that Saavik as traitor would have added depth to TUC, I think it would have been a mischaracterization.

    Saavik ripping out a chair and hurling it against a wall is believable. (Or pretty much any action which was an immediate response to stimuli.) But she was not portrayed as the kind of plotting, scheeming, backstabbing character Eddington was. I think that, crisis over with time to think about it, Saavik would rather forgive than seek vengeance. Otherwise, Spock would never have gotten her away from all the people who deserved killing back on her home planet. Or even if forgiveness is beyond her capability because the crime was too heinous, she would put it behind her rather than nurse her hate long enough to join a rebellion which could never help her achieve revenge against specific targets of her hate, who were all dead anyway.

    So, immediate response to issue, hell yes Saavik would go off the chain.

    Meet the object of her hate years later, okay, she might go off.

    Seek a war against millions who had nothing to do with her or her loved ones? Not in character.

    Kirk didn't hate Klingons just because they killed his son; that was simply the last and most intense straw. Kirk hated Klingons because he spent the better part of his life fighting them. He understood them only as an implacable foe who would never abide by any agreement the moment it was to their advantage to break it. Of course his son was at the top of the list of reasons, but if it had been his only reasons he might well have hated Reverend Jim specifically rather than all Klingons generally. After all, everyone involved in killing David were themselves killed by Kirk How much revenge does a guy need?
    It's not a case of personal vengeance, but of political ideology - My team over Their team - of breaking them Now (politically speaking) would give Us the upper-hand in all future dealings. The Genesis situation would have had profound affects of both Kirk and Saavik, afterall, she was actually present when David was killed. She knew that it could just as easily have been her (and I think it would have been) had David not turned to fight the Klingon. Vulcan or no, that's going to create thoughts. Valeris was clearly swayed by the logic of the situation, it's not only reasonable to conclude that that same logic may convince Saavik, but that she actually had a personal stake on the topic, would likely also (even if subconsciously) shape her decision.

    "I fight for the Users!" - Tron

    "I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
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    silverlobes#2676 silverlobes Member Posts: 1,953 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    While I agree that Saavik as traitor would have added depth to TUC, I think it would have been a mischaracterization.

    Saavik ripping out a chair and hurling it against a wall is believable. (Or pretty much any action which was an immediate response to stimuli.) But she was not portrayed as the kind of plotting, scheeming, backstabbing character Eddington was. I think that, crisis over with time to think about it, Saavik would rather forgive than seek vengeance. Otherwise, Spock would never have gotten her away from all the people who deserved killing back on her home planet. Or even if forgiveness is beyond her capability because the crime was too heinous, she would put it behind her rather than nurse her hate long enough to join a rebellion which could never help her achieve revenge against specific targets of her hate, who were all dead anyway.

    So, immediate response to issue, hell yes Saavik would go off the chain.

    Meet the object of her hate years later, okay, she might go off.

    Seek a war against millions who had nothing to do with her or her loved ones? Not in character.

    Kirk didn't hate Klingons just because they killed his son; that was simply the last and most intense straw. Kirk hated Klingons because he spent the better part of his life fighting them. He understood them only as an implacable foe who would never abide by any agreement the moment it was to their advantage to break it. Of course his son was at the top of the list of reasons, but if it had been his only reasons he might well have hated Reverend Jim specifically rather than all Klingons generally. After all, everyone involved in killing David were themselves killed by Kirk How much revenge does a guy need?

    i agree with this. Saavik isn't the type of person i felt could be a traitor, she has so much going for her and the obvious question why would she throw away a promising career in Starfleet for and betray everyone she knows?
    Again, this touches on the question, What makes someone become a traitor? Bradley/Chelsea Manning, Edward Snowdon, both considered traitors by some, heros for truth and justice by others. Again, Admiral Leyton would have considered himself a patriot. Captain Benteen? Who knows, we weren't introduced to her enough to know why she went along with Leyton's orders, but she presumeably agreed with his orders, for reasons beyond getting the command of a Starship. By the same token, why would Valeris throw away a promising career? What was her motivation? Because we don't know her, we can't speculate. Saavik, is at least familiar enough that An Incident might make her think "Don't want to see this situation again..." Is the betrayal of one's shipmates, an equal counterbalance to the amount of people in the Federation who might have better lives with the Klingon Empire brought to heal? Do the needs of the few, outweigh the needs of the many?

    I'd never given it any thought till it was mentioned upthread, but it just struch a chord, and made me think "As an idea, that actually could have worked, and been interesting..." :sunglasses:

    "I fight for the Users!" - Tron

    "I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
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    mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    While I agree that Saavik as traitor would have added depth to TUC, I think it would have been a mischaracterization.

    Saavik ripping out a chair and hurling it against a wall is believable. (Or pretty much any action which was an immediate response to stimuli.) But she was not portrayed as the kind of plotting, scheeming, backstabbing character Eddington was. I think that, crisis over with time to think about it, Saavik would rather forgive than seek vengeance. Otherwise, Spock would never have gotten her away from all the people who deserved killing back on her home planet. Or even if forgiveness is beyond her capability because the crime was too heinous, she would put it behind her rather than nurse her hate long enough to join a rebellion which could never help her achieve revenge against specific targets of her hate, who were all dead anyway.

    So, immediate response to issue, hell yes Saavik would go off the chain.

    Meet the object of her hate years later, okay, she might go off.

    Seek a war against millions who had nothing to do with her or her loved ones? Not in character.

    Kirk didn't hate Klingons just because they killed his son; that was simply the last and most intense straw. Kirk hated Klingons because he spent the better part of his life fighting them. He understood them only as an implacable foe who would never abide by any agreement the moment it was to their advantage to break it. Of course his son was at the top of the list of reasons, but if it had been his only reasons he might well have hated Reverend Jim specifically rather than all Klingons generally. After all, everyone involved in killing David were themselves killed by Kirk How much revenge does a guy need?

    i agree with this. Saavik isn't the type of person i felt could be a traitor, she has so much going for her and the obvious question why would she throw away a promising career in Starfleet for and betray everyone she knows?
    Again, this touches on the question, What makes someone become a traitor? Bradley/Chelsea Manning, Edward Snowdon, both considered traitors by some, heros for truth and justice by others. Again, Admiral Leyton would have considered himself a patriot. Captain Benteen? Who knows, we weren't introduced to her enough to know why she went along with Leyton's orders, but she presumeably agreed with his orders, for reasons beyond getting the command of a Starship. By the same token, why would Valeris throw away a promising career? What was her motivation? Because we don't know her, we can't speculate. Saavik, is at least familiar enough that An Incident might make her think "Don't want to see this situation again..." Is the betrayal of one's shipmates, an equal counterbalance to the amount of people in the Federation who might have better lives with the Klingon Empire brought to heal? Do the needs of the few, outweigh the needs of the many?

    I'd never given it any thought till it was mentioned upthread, but it just struch a chord, and made me think "As an idea, that actually could have worked, and been interesting..." :sunglasses:

    i like this comment @silverlobes#2676, very well put as well. one could imagine but not know for certain why someone else betrayed their own despite that some of the truth is known, there could of been other reasons.

    I Think Benteen followed Leyton's orders because she is honor bound to follow her superior until the orders no longer made any sense with the mounting evidence that Leyton was using the founders as an excuse to rattle everyones cage, but did Leyton want ultimate power to betray the founding principles of the Federation and make himself a dictator?

    Now that i think about it, there could be reasons Saavik could of betrayed her fellow starfleet officers.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
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    silverlobes#2676 silverlobes Member Posts: 1,953 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    While I agree that Saavik as traitor would have added depth to TUC, I think it would have been a mischaracterization.

    Saavik ripping out a chair and hurling it against a wall is believable. (Or pretty much any action which was an immediate response to stimuli.) But she was not portrayed as the kind of plotting, scheeming, backstabbing character Eddington was. I think that, crisis over with time to think about it, Saavik would rather forgive than seek vengeance. Otherwise, Spock would never have gotten her away from all the people who deserved killing back on her home planet. Or even if forgiveness is beyond her capability because the crime was too heinous, she would put it behind her rather than nurse her hate long enough to join a rebellion which could never help her achieve revenge against specific targets of her hate, who were all dead anyway.

    So, immediate response to issue, hell yes Saavik would go off the chain.

    Meet the object of her hate years later, okay, she might go off.

    Seek a war against millions who had nothing to do with her or her loved ones? Not in character.

    Kirk didn't hate Klingons just because they killed his son; that was simply the last and most intense straw. Kirk hated Klingons because he spent the better part of his life fighting them. He understood them only as an implacable foe who would never abide by any agreement the moment it was to their advantage to break it. Of course his son was at the top of the list of reasons, but if it had been his only reasons he might well have hated Reverend Jim specifically rather than all Klingons generally. After all, everyone involved in killing David were themselves killed by Kirk How much revenge does a guy need?

    i agree with this. Saavik isn't the type of person i felt could be a traitor, she has so much going for her and the obvious question why would she throw away a promising career in Starfleet for and betray everyone she knows?
    Again, this touches on the question, What makes someone become a traitor? Bradley/Chelsea Manning, Edward Snowdon, both considered traitors by some, heros for truth and justice by others. Again, Admiral Leyton would have considered himself a patriot. Captain Benteen? Who knows, we weren't introduced to her enough to know why she went along with Leyton's orders, but she presumeably agreed with his orders, for reasons beyond getting the command of a Starship. By the same token, why would Valeris throw away a promising career? What was her motivation? Because we don't know her, we can't speculate. Saavik, is at least familiar enough that An Incident might make her think "Don't want to see this situation again..." Is the betrayal of one's shipmates, an equal counterbalance to the amount of people in the Federation who might have better lives with the Klingon Empire brought to heal? Do the needs of the few, outweigh the needs of the many?

    I'd never given it any thought till it was mentioned upthread, but it just struch a chord, and made me think "As an idea, that actually could have worked, and been interesting..." :sunglasses:

    i like this comment @silverlobes#2676, very well put as well. one could imagine but not know for certain why someone else betrayed their own despite that some of the truth is known, there could of been other reasons.

    I Think Benteen followed Leyton's orders because she is honor bound to follow her superior until the orders no longer made any sense with the mounting evidence that Leyton was using the founders as an excuse to rattle everyones cage, but did Leyton want ultimate power to betray the founding principles of the Federation and make himself a dictator?

    Now that i think about it, there could be reasons Saavik could of betrayed her fellow starfleet officers.
    Thank you :sunglasses: And of course, what one must consider, is that to the 'traitor', They see their cause as just. Especially if they have Personal Reasons, and especially if they are to look at the Really Big Picture, and think 'Yeah, they need bringing down a peg, it will make everyone in the Federation safer; I know these guys don't agree with me now, but they will do later, and they'll thank me for it.'

    As a thought experiment, it just appealed to me :sunglasses:

    "I fight for the Users!" - Tron

    "I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
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    silverlobes#2676 silverlobes Member Posts: 1,953 Arc User
    coolbatman wrote: »
    read the novelization of st:III, saavik and david marcus were intimate, butt saavik was skilled in bio-feedback techniques(presumibly a way of being in charge of the female cycle to prevent pregnacy) , anyway just read the novelization........
    I'll keep an eye out for it :sunglasses:
    "I fight for the Users!" - Tron

    "I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
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    baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,547 Community Moderator
    Since the conversation has deviated away from the topic of game inclusion, I'm moving this to Ten Forward.
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