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4 warp nacelles, Why?

nickcastletonnickcastleton Member Posts: 1,212 Arc User
Ok this has been bugging me for a while now but why do some starships have four warp nacelles?

Ive been looking at the data for the Constellation-class and i can find no statement as to why they gave it four.

Has there ever been a reason stated why starfleet designed some ships with four nacelles, are 2 of them back up does it make the ship move faster put less strain on the nacelles, has there ever been a statement that anyone knows of as to why?
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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    Real world reason is probably "it looks cool"
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
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  • admiralnatadmiralnat Member Posts: 22,432 Arc User
    Hmm, we've literally already had this discussion... yeah, better stability, possibly extra speed, backups in case others are lost, etc.​​
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    Oh, now don't tell me you want in on all this! Well, ok. Look this that Egg Pawn hanging outside your window, pointing his laser rifle at you, waiting for my next order. He's doing his part. He helps conquer the weak-minded. He roboticizes the weak-bodied. Heck, he even helps keep the useless people from causing any trouble, but you know what? Join. Find the closest Nataran Empire roboticization center near you and join the ranks, before the ranks find you. Oh, I know, you figure it must be so satisfying to know I basically rule the world now, and you know what? It is, but do you want to know the true definition of satisfaction? Well, let me tell you a little story. One day, you see a brand new event. They're giving out boxes that give old event stuff. Your dilithium is plentiful. You buy a whole lot of Phoenix packs on your main, and open them all. You get one epic token. Then, you decide, that since you have all the Breen ships and don't give a damn about the others, you exchange it for an ultra rare, and grab yourself a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship and for the hell of it, a Voth Bulwark. You open both, leaving the Bulwark in your vast masses of starships as you jump into the bugship and deck it out, deck by deck, into the most awesome Jem'Hadar ship you can. You fly it. You enjoy it. Eventually, you get bored and leave, leaving the old Bulwark never flown... until later. Your main is long complete. Your new alt main, based off some character you pulled out of nothing just to explain away some starship being in service without the command of your dear admiral, is also complete. Mostly. Their reps and doffs are hard at work, getting you stuff. You realize the potential, and head back for your dear admiral, pull the most Voth themed build you can out of thin air, and suit up in your giant ship in the shape of you know what. You head out... and cause all sorts of havoc. Enemies scream out your name as their very life is drained away by your swarms of Aceton Assimilators. They complain to the devs of your OPness when you revive yourself from death every time you die. Do you show any form of mercy? No. After all, this isn't the United Federation of Planets, this is mother frakkin' Starfleet, where you explore strange new worlds and kick butt never kicked before. Oh, and you realize that I just wrote another speech rivaling your own signature. Cool. Oh, wait, that's just the original draft, it is part of my signature now. Oh, and yes, I am aware that I have become a Canadian Regent; one day, sooner than you'd expect, we'll suddenly decide to take over the world and declare an "alliance", and I shall become it's Regent. You know, like the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance in the mirror universe of our beloved Star Trek. Oh, who'll we be taking over with? I dunno, maybe [REDACTED], or maybe aliens from outer space. Guess you'll have to wait and find out, won't we? Until then, don't ask too many questions, or else my Breen allies on Titania might pick up on your -- [REDACTED BY BREEN CONFEDERACY FOR REASONS] Also, psst... keep an eye out for flying Tribbles! Also walls. Big, great walls, separating entire continents apart. Walls patrolled by Tribbles. Flying Tribbles. Flying Nukara Tribbles. Don't worry, it's not like they were on Venus with a herd of Tholians or anything, they just like the extreme heat and brutal weather like acid rain and hurricane force winds as the norm. Oh, and definitely keep your eye out on any two-tailed foxes, because if they ain't glowing, they're definitely an imposter. Possibly an Undine, we caught one of those once in my place once. Oh, and if you find a two-tailed fox that doesn't like the cold... most certainly ask him to say sorry. If he refuses, DESTROY HIM WITH A DOOMSDAY MACHINE, BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE THAT WOULD BE ENOUGH AGAINST SUCH AN OVERPOWERED IMPOSTER!

    tr;dr, I am winning last post wins 3.0. Thank you for your time.
    Oh, look, an explosion...
  • nickcastletonnickcastleton Member Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    admiralnat wrote: »
    Hmm, we've literally already had this discussion... yeah, better stability, possibly extra speed, backups in case others are lost, etc.​​
    but if that is the case then why wouldn't all starfleet ships have 4 im just surprised there hasn't been a explanation from one of the designers of the constelation class about it.

    The Prometheus class having 4 i get after all it separates and i think all 3 parts are warp capable but the Constellation and Cthyene class i cant think of why or better yet why all ships after didn't have 4 if 4 is better.

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    "It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,331 Arc User
    It's most likely increased efficency with smaller nacelles and speed especially with ships with smaller cores that need to be able to traverse long distances.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • jorantomalakjorantomalak Member Posts: 7,133 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    It's most likely increased efficency with smaller nacelles and speed especially with ships with smaller cores that need to be able to traverse long distances.

    I think this is the best answer

    Look at the ships who have 4 nacells

    Constellation

    Cheyenne

    Prometheus

    these examples show one thing a small engineering deck which means a small warp core, it think its more about compensating for the smaller warp core so to keep them up with the ships with larger cores.
  • admiralnatadmiralnat Member Posts: 22,432 Arc User
    admiralnat wrote: »
    Hmm, we've literally already had this discussion... yeah, better stability, possibly extra speed, backups in case others are lost, etc.
    but if that is the case then why wouldn't all starfleet ships have 4 im just surprised there hasn't been a explanation from one of the designers of the constelation class about it.

    The Prometheus class having 4 i get after all it separates and i think all 3 parts are warp capable but the Constellation and Cthyene class i cant think of why or better yet why all ships after didn't have 4 if 4 is better.

    Also consider the costs; making a 2 nacelled ship is obviously cheaper, so they only have 4 on the ships who would actually need them. Small ships for short-range missions, larger ships with bigger, stronger nacelles, etc. just don't need the extra nacelles.​​
    2jwMZnF.gif
    Winning.
    It's what I do. It's what I just did. It's what I'm about to do again. It's being undisputed emperor of an empire that cannot be disproved as the most powerful intergalactic empire in the entire universe; I always win, and everything I've won will definitely be won again... by me. It's my signature move, and thus, it's my signature. Problem, Sonic? Yeah, I mean you, Sonic, because you're being beat up, despite your being super. You can't even hit Shadow back, can you? Nope, he's too strong for you. Of course, I'm not Shadow, I'm the Super Emerald fueled fox that's pulling the strings; trust me, the fight would only be a few frames long if I were in it personally. Oh, and here's something for all you guys thinking you can win Last Post Wins 3.0; trust me, I'll be around a long while after the sun has already consumed the Earth while I sit out with the forum servers on Titan. Yes, I mean Titan... that comparatively little moon orbiting Saturn. It's a nice little place in a version of our solar system where the sun is a lot bigger. I mean, Mars will last longer than your precious Earth, but by then, it'll be one hot planet... and I figure Saturn's moon will be about the right temperate for a super-powered warlord. Oh, and trust me, I packed a lot of rings, and I mean a lot. Trillions, in fact, so I'll never run out of rings to power my super form. Besides, if I start to run out, I can just chaos control more rings into my reach. It's quite easy, really. You should try it. Granted, you'll never have the 7 Super Emeralds that I have in my possession, nor the Master Emerald that I've got hidden away somewhere... absorbed into my body thanks to Sonic logic, but whatever. I win. Again. I'm not kidding, either. Just check Last Post Wins, and if the last post isn't mine, it soon will be. Very, very soon. You can count on it. Seriously. By the way, if you're wondering, there's a really great Super Tails sprite sheet out there... somewhere... by some guy named shadow_91. These sprites are really great. Like, really good. Quality. Just like what I like to see in a sprite sheet. Also, credit to Joe T.E., his Sonic Battle style Super Sonic sprites have a great palette for a Super Sonic being beat up by Super Shadow, who's palette is from a Super Shadow sheet of unknown origin, but it turns out they were "borrowed" from a better sheet made by a certain Domenico. Oh, and the gif is actually a custom made super version of a similar gif, of which there are only 3 or 4 copies to be found by Google, and even then, evidently of an unknown source. Yep, it's one of those things. Stuff people have made, spread around, only for it to vanish and you to be the only person who still has a copy, not even knowing where it came from... like, literally at all. Oh, and anyone notice that Shadow's little chaos snap blast thingies are red and blue now? Yeah, I changed it. Problem, fans of purple? Yeah, I know you got a problem with that one, but you can just deal with it. After all, according to all known laws of aviation, there is no way a bee should be able to fly... alright, alright, I'll spare you the entire Bee Movie script, just Google it if you want. By the way, ever wonder how your characters would've ended up if they evolved in another universe? Yeah, that. Think about it. Ok, so you probably didn't bother reading up to here, but whatever, here's a surprise for you guys over at ESD (RP) who were crazy enough to read this: Emperor Nat of the mcfreakin' Terran Empire is gonna be right all along! The universe is gonna go BOOM! *Thumbs up to the insanity*
    Oh, now don't tell me you want in on all this! Well, ok. Look this that Egg Pawn hanging outside your window, pointing his laser rifle at you, waiting for my next order. He's doing his part. He helps conquer the weak-minded. He roboticizes the weak-bodied. Heck, he even helps keep the useless people from causing any trouble, but you know what? Join. Find the closest Nataran Empire roboticization center near you and join the ranks, before the ranks find you. Oh, I know, you figure it must be so satisfying to know I basically rule the world now, and you know what? It is, but do you want to know the true definition of satisfaction? Well, let me tell you a little story. One day, you see a brand new event. They're giving out boxes that give old event stuff. Your dilithium is plentiful. You buy a whole lot of Phoenix packs on your main, and open them all. You get one epic token. Then, you decide, that since you have all the Breen ships and don't give a damn about the others, you exchange it for an ultra rare, and grab yourself a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship and for the hell of it, a Voth Bulwark. You open both, leaving the Bulwark in your vast masses of starships as you jump into the bugship and deck it out, deck by deck, into the most awesome Jem'Hadar ship you can. You fly it. You enjoy it. Eventually, you get bored and leave, leaving the old Bulwark never flown... until later. Your main is long complete. Your new alt main, based off some character you pulled out of nothing just to explain away some starship being in service without the command of your dear admiral, is also complete. Mostly. Their reps and doffs are hard at work, getting you stuff. You realize the potential, and head back for your dear admiral, pull the most Voth themed build you can out of thin air, and suit up in your giant ship in the shape of you know what. You head out... and cause all sorts of havoc. Enemies scream out your name as their very life is drained away by your swarms of Aceton Assimilators. They complain to the devs of your OPness when you revive yourself from death every time you die. Do you show any form of mercy? No. After all, this isn't the United Federation of Planets, this is mother frakkin' Starfleet, where you explore strange new worlds and kick butt never kicked before. Oh, and you realize that I just wrote another speech rivaling your own signature. Cool. Oh, wait, that's just the original draft, it is part of my signature now. Oh, and yes, I am aware that I have become a Canadian Regent; one day, sooner than you'd expect, we'll suddenly decide to take over the world and declare an "alliance", and I shall become it's Regent. You know, like the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance in the mirror universe of our beloved Star Trek. Oh, who'll we be taking over with? I dunno, maybe [REDACTED], or maybe aliens from outer space. Guess you'll have to wait and find out, won't we? Until then, don't ask too many questions, or else my Breen allies on Titania might pick up on your -- [REDACTED BY BREEN CONFEDERACY FOR REASONS] Also, psst... keep an eye out for flying Tribbles! Also walls. Big, great walls, separating entire continents apart. Walls patrolled by Tribbles. Flying Tribbles. Flying Nukara Tribbles. Don't worry, it's not like they were on Venus with a herd of Tholians or anything, they just like the extreme heat and brutal weather like acid rain and hurricane force winds as the norm. Oh, and definitely keep your eye out on any two-tailed foxes, because if they ain't glowing, they're definitely an imposter. Possibly an Undine, we caught one of those once in my place once. Oh, and if you find a two-tailed fox that doesn't like the cold... most certainly ask him to say sorry. If he refuses, DESTROY HIM WITH A DOOMSDAY MACHINE, BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE THAT WOULD BE ENOUGH AGAINST SUCH AN OVERPOWERED IMPOSTER!

    tr;dr, I am winning last post wins 3.0. Thank you for your time.
    Oh, look, an explosion...
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    2 Theories.
    Getting the most out of dated technology
    I took it as some kind of a final use for an older warp nacelle technology.

    The Constellation Class has 4 nacelles and it's newer than the Constitution, but it uses a very similar nacelle design.
    Picard mentioned it was an underpowered ship during the Cardassian War.

    I figure there was already a new generation of warp nacelle technology in the works (the one from the Excelsior the Ambassador perhaps?) which was faster and more efficient, but more expensive to make for now and only available in low numbers until series production ramps up.

    The Quad Nacelle layout might allow the ship to reach the same speed as with a twin nacelle layout of the same type, but allow operating each individual nacelle at a lower, more efficient power level.
    This means you can actually use a smaller warp core for similar speed, and the nacelles suffer less wear and tear. Overall this lowers the cost of the ship and the cost of maintaining the ship, allowing it to economically compete with a ship using more modern propulsion technologies.

    Maybe theoretically the quad nacelles could also compete in the speed deparment with the newer twin-nacelles, but it wouldn't be as efficient. The lower maintenance requirements could increase range, but I don't think that was relevant. The big explorers of their age were twin-nacelle designs.

    That the quad nacelle designs came later might also be due to the complexities of synchronizing 4 nacelles - it requires really good experience with the technology and maybe advances in computer technology to maintain such warp fields effectively and safely.

    Warp Maneuverability
    Another option could be: Warp maneuverability. I heard one theory (or I made it up myself?) that the twin-nacelle layout was more suited for the human (and probably also Andorian, Klingon) adventurism mindset, as it allowed to make maneuvering changes by altering the two subspace fields at warp speed. The Vulcans used their warp rings because they planned their course beforehand and woudn't normally diverge from their course. A Human-crewed ship might detect some interesting anomaly and immediately change course to detect it. Klingons might try to catch their prey and need to outmaneuver it.

    A Quad nacelle layout might be even more maneuverable at warp speed, allowing better tactical use of warp. (Maybe that's why coming up with the Picard maneuver was natural for the Captain of the Stargazer - he was used to consider the tactical uses of his warp engine.). That might suggest the Quad nacelle ships were designed more for combat then the twin-nacelle designs. (Which would fit the Prometheus.)
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    Experimentation. There's rarely more than one four nacelled ship per era.

    The ENT, Kelvin, and TOS eras didn't have any, the TMP era had one (the Constellation), the TNG era had two (Cheyenne and the Melbourne), and the DS9 era had one (the Prometheus).

    So it seems every time Starfleet upgrades the line, they give the four nacelle thing another go.

    Same with one nacelled ships. The Kelvin era had the Kelvin, TOS had the Saladin and Ptolemy (depending on how canon unreadable MSDs are), and TNG had the Freedom.

    In fact it's the same with the other non-standard nacelle configurations, there's only one or two per era and not every era. Three nacelled ships are limited to the Kelvin era (the Armstrong) and TNG (the Niagara), and integrated nacelles to ENT (the NC) and DS9 (the Defiant)​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


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  • thay8472thay8472 Member Posts: 6,100 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    Experimentation. There's rarely more than one four nacelled ship per era.

    The ENT, Kelvin, and TOS eras didn't have any, the TMP era had one (the Constellation), the TNG era had two (Cheyenne and the Melbourne), and the DS9 era had one (the Prometheus).

    So it seems every time Starfleet upgrades the line, they give the four nacelle thing another go.

    Same with one nacelled ships. The Kelvin era had the Kelvin, TOS had the Saladin and Ptolemy (depending on how canon unreadable MSDs are), and TNG had the Freedom.

    In fact it's the same with the other non-standard nacelle configurations, there's only one or two per era and not every era. Three nacelled ships are limited to the Kelvin era (the Armstrong) and TNG (the Niagara), and integrated nacelles to ENT (the NC) and DS9 (the Defiant)​​

    Melbourne was a Nebula Class? and an Excelsior Class ... both went boom at wolf 359.

    Gal-X has three nacelles you silly marmite licking plebe you.

    Typhoon has 4? 2 glued to both engines XD
    2gdi5w4mrudm.png
    Typhoon Class please!
  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,985 Arc User
    Eclipse and Hestia for the STO section of the timeline. Yes I do like the Eclipse
    NMXb2ph.png
      "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
      -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
    • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
      thay8472 wrote: »
      artan42 wrote: »
      Experimentation. There's rarely more than one four nacelled ship per era.

      The ENT, Kelvin, and TOS eras didn't have any, the TMP era had one (the Constellation), the TNG era had two (Cheyenne and the Melbourne), and the DS9 era had one (the Prometheus).

      So it seems every time Starfleet upgrades the line, they give the four nacelle thing another go.

      Same with one nacelled ships. The Kelvin era had the Kelvin, TOS had the Saladin and Ptolemy (depending on how canon unreadable MSDs are), and TNG had the Freedom.

      In fact it's the same with the other non-standard nacelle configurations, there's only one or two per era and not every era. Three nacelled ships are limited to the Kelvin era (the Armstrong) and TNG (the Niagara), and integrated nacelles to ENT (the NC) and DS9 (the Defiant)​​

      Melbourne was a Nebula Class? and an Excelsior Class ... both went boom at wolf 359.

      Gal-X has three nacelles you silly marmite licking plebe you.

      Typhoon has 4? 2 glued to both engines XD

      The Melbourne was not a Nebula, it's similar but it has a different secondary hull and extra nacelles balanced around, the saucer and pylons are also different any not Galaxy ones rearranged, as on the Nebula.
      nebula-variant-mark-2.jpg

      The Gal-X is non-existent in the real timeline and the Typhoon is non-canon. Awesome, but non-canon.
      22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
      Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
      JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

      #TASforSTO


      '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
      'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
      'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
      '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
      'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
      '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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    • thay8472thay8472 Member Posts: 6,100 Arc User
      Dude ... It's a nebula class with two extra warp nacelles and no pod.
      2gdi5w4mrudm.png
      Typhoon Class please!
    • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,985 Arc User
      Artan and Thay, this should help with the Melbourne conundrum
      http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Wolf_359#Starships_at_Wolf_359
      NMXb2ph.png
        "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
        -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
      • thay8472thay8472 Member Posts: 6,100 Arc User
        Don't forget about the 4 nacelle Excelsior variant that played a major role in junkyards and debris fields.

        qualor5.jpg
        2gdi5w4mrudm.png
        Typhoon Class please!
      • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
        thay8472 wrote: »
        Dude ... It's a nebula class with two extra warp nacelles and no pod.

        Dude... It's a similar configuration but not the same parts. It's not a Nebula.
        thay8472 wrote: »
        Don't forget about the 4 nacelle Excelsior variant that played a major role in junkyards and debris fields.

        qualor5.jpg

        I didn't forget about them. I just didn't mention them. We don't know what era they're from, TMP or TNG. Even so, only two of the Excelsior studies have four nacelles, the other two have two so that would still only increase the number of four nacelled ships in the TMP or TNG era by two (or possibly one of one of the studies is a refit of the other as the two Melbourne variations are).
        22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
        Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
        JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

        #TASforSTO


        '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
        'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
        'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
        '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
        'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
        '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

        Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
      • admiralnatadmiralnat Member Posts: 22,432 Arc User
        edited January 2017
        Eclipse and Hestia for the STO section of the timeline. Yes I do like the Eclipse
        Also don't forget the Guardian, which can optionally be equipped with 2, smaller nacelles built into the pylons. Oh, and the Jupiter class carrier, and don't forget about the Gemini either, a 23rd century design. Keep in mind that the Hestia is just a variant of the Prometheus, else we'd also have to include 3 other Advanced Escorts in our list... :tongue:

        Also the Command Battlecruisers, of the Federation, Romulans, and possibly the Klingons... the Romulan one might actually have 6 nacelles, but some of them are kinda small.​​
        2jwMZnF.gif
        Winning.
        It's what I do. It's what I just did. It's what I'm about to do again. It's being undisputed emperor of an empire that cannot be disproved as the most powerful intergalactic empire in the entire universe; I always win, and everything I've won will definitely be won again... by me. It's my signature move, and thus, it's my signature. Problem, Sonic? Yeah, I mean you, Sonic, because you're being beat up, despite your being super. You can't even hit Shadow back, can you? Nope, he's too strong for you. Of course, I'm not Shadow, I'm the Super Emerald fueled fox that's pulling the strings; trust me, the fight would only be a few frames long if I were in it personally. Oh, and here's something for all you guys thinking you can win Last Post Wins 3.0; trust me, I'll be around a long while after the sun has already consumed the Earth while I sit out with the forum servers on Titan. Yes, I mean Titan... that comparatively little moon orbiting Saturn. It's a nice little place in a version of our solar system where the sun is a lot bigger. I mean, Mars will last longer than your precious Earth, but by then, it'll be one hot planet... and I figure Saturn's moon will be about the right temperate for a super-powered warlord. Oh, and trust me, I packed a lot of rings, and I mean a lot. Trillions, in fact, so I'll never run out of rings to power my super form. Besides, if I start to run out, I can just chaos control more rings into my reach. It's quite easy, really. You should try it. Granted, you'll never have the 7 Super Emeralds that I have in my possession, nor the Master Emerald that I've got hidden away somewhere... absorbed into my body thanks to Sonic logic, but whatever. I win. Again. I'm not kidding, either. Just check Last Post Wins, and if the last post isn't mine, it soon will be. Very, very soon. You can count on it. Seriously. By the way, if you're wondering, there's a really great Super Tails sprite sheet out there... somewhere... by some guy named shadow_91. These sprites are really great. Like, really good. Quality. Just like what I like to see in a sprite sheet. Also, credit to Joe T.E., his Sonic Battle style Super Sonic sprites have a great palette for a Super Sonic being beat up by Super Shadow, who's palette is from a Super Shadow sheet of unknown origin, but it turns out they were "borrowed" from a better sheet made by a certain Domenico. Oh, and the gif is actually a custom made super version of a similar gif, of which there are only 3 or 4 copies to be found by Google, and even then, evidently of an unknown source. Yep, it's one of those things. Stuff people have made, spread around, only for it to vanish and you to be the only person who still has a copy, not even knowing where it came from... like, literally at all. Oh, and anyone notice that Shadow's little chaos snap blast thingies are red and blue now? Yeah, I changed it. Problem, fans of purple? Yeah, I know you got a problem with that one, but you can just deal with it. After all, according to all known laws of aviation, there is no way a bee should be able to fly... alright, alright, I'll spare you the entire Bee Movie script, just Google it if you want. By the way, ever wonder how your characters would've ended up if they evolved in another universe? Yeah, that. Think about it. Ok, so you probably didn't bother reading up to here, but whatever, here's a surprise for you guys over at ESD (RP) who were crazy enough to read this: Emperor Nat of the mcfreakin' Terran Empire is gonna be right all along! The universe is gonna go BOOM! *Thumbs up to the insanity*
        Oh, now don't tell me you want in on all this! Well, ok. Look this that Egg Pawn hanging outside your window, pointing his laser rifle at you, waiting for my next order. He's doing his part. He helps conquer the weak-minded. He roboticizes the weak-bodied. Heck, he even helps keep the useless people from causing any trouble, but you know what? Join. Find the closest Nataran Empire roboticization center near you and join the ranks, before the ranks find you. Oh, I know, you figure it must be so satisfying to know I basically rule the world now, and you know what? It is, but do you want to know the true definition of satisfaction? Well, let me tell you a little story. One day, you see a brand new event. They're giving out boxes that give old event stuff. Your dilithium is plentiful. You buy a whole lot of Phoenix packs on your main, and open them all. You get one epic token. Then, you decide, that since you have all the Breen ships and don't give a damn about the others, you exchange it for an ultra rare, and grab yourself a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship and for the hell of it, a Voth Bulwark. You open both, leaving the Bulwark in your vast masses of starships as you jump into the bugship and deck it out, deck by deck, into the most awesome Jem'Hadar ship you can. You fly it. You enjoy it. Eventually, you get bored and leave, leaving the old Bulwark never flown... until later. Your main is long complete. Your new alt main, based off some character you pulled out of nothing just to explain away some starship being in service without the command of your dear admiral, is also complete. Mostly. Their reps and doffs are hard at work, getting you stuff. You realize the potential, and head back for your dear admiral, pull the most Voth themed build you can out of thin air, and suit up in your giant ship in the shape of you know what. You head out... and cause all sorts of havoc. Enemies scream out your name as their very life is drained away by your swarms of Aceton Assimilators. They complain to the devs of your OPness when you revive yourself from death every time you die. Do you show any form of mercy? No. After all, this isn't the United Federation of Planets, this is mother frakkin' Starfleet, where you explore strange new worlds and kick butt never kicked before. Oh, and you realize that I just wrote another speech rivaling your own signature. Cool. Oh, wait, that's just the original draft, it is part of my signature now. Oh, and yes, I am aware that I have become a Canadian Regent; one day, sooner than you'd expect, we'll suddenly decide to take over the world and declare an "alliance", and I shall become it's Regent. You know, like the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance in the mirror universe of our beloved Star Trek. Oh, who'll we be taking over with? I dunno, maybe [REDACTED], or maybe aliens from outer space. Guess you'll have to wait and find out, won't we? Until then, don't ask too many questions, or else my Breen allies on Titania might pick up on your -- [REDACTED BY BREEN CONFEDERACY FOR REASONS] Also, psst... keep an eye out for flying Tribbles! Also walls. Big, great walls, separating entire continents apart. Walls patrolled by Tribbles. Flying Tribbles. Flying Nukara Tribbles. Don't worry, it's not like they were on Venus with a herd of Tholians or anything, they just like the extreme heat and brutal weather like acid rain and hurricane force winds as the norm. Oh, and definitely keep your eye out on any two-tailed foxes, because if they ain't glowing, they're definitely an imposter. Possibly an Undine, we caught one of those once in my place once. Oh, and if you find a two-tailed fox that doesn't like the cold... most certainly ask him to say sorry. If he refuses, DESTROY HIM WITH A DOOMSDAY MACHINE, BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE THAT WOULD BE ENOUGH AGAINST SUCH AN OVERPOWERED IMPOSTER!

        tr;dr, I am winning last post wins 3.0. Thank you for your time.
        Oh, look, an explosion...
      • thay8472thay8472 Member Posts: 6,100 Arc User
        artan42 wrote: »
        thay8472 wrote: »
        Dude ... It's a nebula class with two extra warp nacelles and no pod.

        Dude... It's a similar configuration but not the same parts. It's not a Nebula.

        It's a nebula variant without the pod.

        NebulaPrototype1_USS_Melbourne.jpg
        latest?cb=20131014234027&path-prefix=en
        0BeuvM9.jpg


        2gdi5w4mrudm.png
        Typhoon Class please!
      • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
        thay8472 wrote: »
        artan42 wrote: »
        thay8472 wrote: »
        Dude ... It's a nebula class with two extra warp nacelles and no pod.

        Dude... It's a similar configuration but not the same parts. It's not a Nebula.

        It's a nebula variant without the pod.

        NebulaPrototype1_USS_Melbourne.jpg
        latest?cb=20131014234027&path-prefix=en
        0BeuvM9.jpg


        It has a similar shape but it is not made of the same parts. I am fully prepared to fight you to the death over this. That first image you posted is not the Melbourne it's a fan made image of the Nebula with nacelles in the place of the pod. The second I can't see it's too small but looks like the actual model and the third is also not the Melbourne or if it is it's the second version not the first one. Look at the secondary hull, the Nebula has a short cut off one that ends in a shuttlebay the Melbourne has an elongated one that ends in a flat point.
        22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
        Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
        JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

        #TASforSTO


        '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
        'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
        'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
        '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
        'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
        '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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      • thay8472thay8472 Member Posts: 6,100 Arc User
        It's a nebula class with a back bit and 2 mini engines.


        2gdi5w4mrudm.png
        Typhoon Class please!
      • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
        thay8472 wrote: »
        It's a nebula class with a back bit and 2 mini engines.


        It also has a different saucer that's flatter with a less prounced shuttlebay and has more Windows than the Nebula. Oh and the pylons are completely different shapes.
        22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
        Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
        JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

        #TASforSTO


        '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
        'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
        'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
        '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
        'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
        '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

        Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
      • antonine3258antonine3258 Member Posts: 2,391 Arc User
        leemwatson wrote: »
        It's most likely increased efficency with smaller nacelles and speed especially with ships with smaller cores that need to be able to traverse long distances.

        Seems to be this, often on long-range exploration vessels; given that warp nacelles are by definition, not doing much at impulse, it probably affects combat maneuverability and it's that many more nacelles you have to to protect.
        Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker

        Member Access Denied Armada!

        My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
      • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
        artan42 wrote: »
        thay8472 wrote: »
        artan42 wrote: »
        thay8472 wrote: »
        Dude ... It's a nebula class with two extra warp nacelles and no pod.

        Dude... It's a similar configuration but not the same parts. It's not a Nebula.

        It's a nebula variant without the pod.

        NebulaPrototype1_USS_Melbourne.jpg
        latest?cb=20131014234027&path-prefix=en
        0BeuvM9.jpg


        It has a similar shape but it is not made of the same parts. I am fully prepared to fight you to the death over this. That first image you posted is not the Melbourne it's a fan made image of the Nebula with nacelles in the place of the pod. The second I can't see it's too small but looks like the actual model and the third is also not the Melbourne or if it is it's the second version not the first one. Look at the secondary hull, the Nebula has a short cut off one that ends in a shuttlebay the Melbourne has an elongated one that ends in a flat point.

        Calling that pseudo-nebula class the Melbourne is incorrect, as the Melbourne was an Excelsior class. The name on that four nacelled ship was either incorrect from the beginning, or retconned by emissary. Personally I always thought the Melbourne was an Excelsior class just from watching BoBW, always had the impression that was the ship the Admiral was on.
        Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
        eaY7Xxu.png
      • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
        artan42 wrote: »
        thay8472 wrote: »
        artan42 wrote: »
        thay8472 wrote: »
        Dude ... It's a nebula class with two extra warp nacelles and no pod.

        Dude... It's a similar configuration but not the same parts. It's not a Nebula.

        It's a nebula variant without the pod.

        NebulaPrototype1_USS_Melbourne.jpg
        latest?cb=20131014234027&path-prefix=en
        0BeuvM9.jpg


        It has a similar shape but it is not made of the same parts. I am fully prepared to fight you to the death over this. That first image you posted is not the Melbourne it's a fan made image of the Nebula with nacelles in the place of the pod. The second I can't see it's too small but looks like the actual model and the third is also not the Melbourne or if it is it's the second version not the first one. Look at the secondary hull, the Nebula has a short cut off one that ends in a shuttlebay the Melbourne has an elongated one that ends in a flat point.

        Calling that pseudo-nebula class the Melbourne is incorrect, as the Melbourne was an Excelsior class. The name on that four nacelled ship was either incorrect from the beginning, or retconned by emissary. Personally I always thought the Melbourne was an Excelsior class just from watching BoBW, always had the impression that was the ship the Admiral was on.

        It has the name Melbourne written on its saucer. I'm not giving it any other name. Yes it creates an amusing snafoo with the Excelsior Melbourne but that's just Star Trek for you.
        22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
        Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
        JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

        #TASforSTO


        '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
        'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
        'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
        '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
        'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
        '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

        Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
      • admiralnatadmiralnat Member Posts: 22,432 Arc User
        artan42 wrote: »
        artan42 wrote: »
        thay8472 wrote: »
        artan42 wrote: »
        thay8472 wrote: »
        Dude ... It's a nebula class with two extra warp nacelles and no pod.

        Dude... It's a similar configuration but not the same parts. It's not a Nebula.

        It's a nebula variant without the pod.

        NebulaPrototype1_USS_Melbourne.jpg
        latest?cb=20131014234027&path-prefix=en
        0BeuvM9.jpg


        It has a similar shape but it is not made of the same parts. I am fully prepared to fight you to the death over this. That first image you posted is not the Melbourne it's a fan made image of the Nebula with nacelles in the place of the pod. The second I can't see it's too small but looks like the actual model and the third is also not the Melbourne or if it is it's the second version not the first one. Look at the secondary hull, the Nebula has a short cut off one that ends in a shuttlebay the Melbourne has an elongated one that ends in a flat point.

        Calling that pseudo-nebula class the Melbourne is incorrect, as the Melbourne was an Excelsior class. The name on that four nacelled ship was either incorrect from the beginning, or retconned by emissary. Personally I always thought the Melbourne was an Excelsior class just from watching BoBW, always had the impression that was the ship the Admiral was on.

        It has the name Melbourne written on its saucer. I'm not giving it any other name. Yes it creates an amusing snafoo with the Excelsior Melbourne but that's just Star Trek for you.

        Funny how the Prometheus has a similar issue involving a Nebula variant/ship similar to the Nebula and a 4 nacelled ship...​​
        2jwMZnF.gif
        Winning.
        It's what I do. It's what I just did. It's what I'm about to do again. It's being undisputed emperor of an empire that cannot be disproved as the most powerful intergalactic empire in the entire universe; I always win, and everything I've won will definitely be won again... by me. It's my signature move, and thus, it's my signature. Problem, Sonic? Yeah, I mean you, Sonic, because you're being beat up, despite your being super. You can't even hit Shadow back, can you? Nope, he's too strong for you. Of course, I'm not Shadow, I'm the Super Emerald fueled fox that's pulling the strings; trust me, the fight would only be a few frames long if I were in it personally. Oh, and here's something for all you guys thinking you can win Last Post Wins 3.0; trust me, I'll be around a long while after the sun has already consumed the Earth while I sit out with the forum servers on Titan. Yes, I mean Titan... that comparatively little moon orbiting Saturn. It's a nice little place in a version of our solar system where the sun is a lot bigger. I mean, Mars will last longer than your precious Earth, but by then, it'll be one hot planet... and I figure Saturn's moon will be about the right temperate for a super-powered warlord. Oh, and trust me, I packed a lot of rings, and I mean a lot. Trillions, in fact, so I'll never run out of rings to power my super form. Besides, if I start to run out, I can just chaos control more rings into my reach. It's quite easy, really. You should try it. Granted, you'll never have the 7 Super Emeralds that I have in my possession, nor the Master Emerald that I've got hidden away somewhere... absorbed into my body thanks to Sonic logic, but whatever. I win. Again. I'm not kidding, either. Just check Last Post Wins, and if the last post isn't mine, it soon will be. Very, very soon. You can count on it. Seriously. By the way, if you're wondering, there's a really great Super Tails sprite sheet out there... somewhere... by some guy named shadow_91. These sprites are really great. Like, really good. Quality. Just like what I like to see in a sprite sheet. Also, credit to Joe T.E., his Sonic Battle style Super Sonic sprites have a great palette for a Super Sonic being beat up by Super Shadow, who's palette is from a Super Shadow sheet of unknown origin, but it turns out they were "borrowed" from a better sheet made by a certain Domenico. Oh, and the gif is actually a custom made super version of a similar gif, of which there are only 3 or 4 copies to be found by Google, and even then, evidently of an unknown source. Yep, it's one of those things. Stuff people have made, spread around, only for it to vanish and you to be the only person who still has a copy, not even knowing where it came from... like, literally at all. Oh, and anyone notice that Shadow's little chaos snap blast thingies are red and blue now? Yeah, I changed it. Problem, fans of purple? Yeah, I know you got a problem with that one, but you can just deal with it. After all, according to all known laws of aviation, there is no way a bee should be able to fly... alright, alright, I'll spare you the entire Bee Movie script, just Google it if you want. By the way, ever wonder how your characters would've ended up if they evolved in another universe? Yeah, that. Think about it. Ok, so you probably didn't bother reading up to here, but whatever, here's a surprise for you guys over at ESD (RP) who were crazy enough to read this: Emperor Nat of the mcfreakin' Terran Empire is gonna be right all along! The universe is gonna go BOOM! *Thumbs up to the insanity*
        Oh, now don't tell me you want in on all this! Well, ok. Look this that Egg Pawn hanging outside your window, pointing his laser rifle at you, waiting for my next order. He's doing his part. He helps conquer the weak-minded. He roboticizes the weak-bodied. Heck, he even helps keep the useless people from causing any trouble, but you know what? Join. Find the closest Nataran Empire roboticization center near you and join the ranks, before the ranks find you. Oh, I know, you figure it must be so satisfying to know I basically rule the world now, and you know what? It is, but do you want to know the true definition of satisfaction? Well, let me tell you a little story. One day, you see a brand new event. They're giving out boxes that give old event stuff. Your dilithium is plentiful. You buy a whole lot of Phoenix packs on your main, and open them all. You get one epic token. Then, you decide, that since you have all the Breen ships and don't give a damn about the others, you exchange it for an ultra rare, and grab yourself a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship and for the hell of it, a Voth Bulwark. You open both, leaving the Bulwark in your vast masses of starships as you jump into the bugship and deck it out, deck by deck, into the most awesome Jem'Hadar ship you can. You fly it. You enjoy it. Eventually, you get bored and leave, leaving the old Bulwark never flown... until later. Your main is long complete. Your new alt main, based off some character you pulled out of nothing just to explain away some starship being in service without the command of your dear admiral, is also complete. Mostly. Their reps and doffs are hard at work, getting you stuff. You realize the potential, and head back for your dear admiral, pull the most Voth themed build you can out of thin air, and suit up in your giant ship in the shape of you know what. You head out... and cause all sorts of havoc. Enemies scream out your name as their very life is drained away by your swarms of Aceton Assimilators. They complain to the devs of your OPness when you revive yourself from death every time you die. Do you show any form of mercy? No. After all, this isn't the United Federation of Planets, this is mother frakkin' Starfleet, where you explore strange new worlds and kick butt never kicked before. Oh, and you realize that I just wrote another speech rivaling your own signature. Cool. Oh, wait, that's just the original draft, it is part of my signature now. Oh, and yes, I am aware that I have become a Canadian Regent; one day, sooner than you'd expect, we'll suddenly decide to take over the world and declare an "alliance", and I shall become it's Regent. You know, like the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance in the mirror universe of our beloved Star Trek. Oh, who'll we be taking over with? I dunno, maybe [REDACTED], or maybe aliens from outer space. Guess you'll have to wait and find out, won't we? Until then, don't ask too many questions, or else my Breen allies on Titania might pick up on your -- [REDACTED BY BREEN CONFEDERACY FOR REASONS] Also, psst... keep an eye out for flying Tribbles! Also walls. Big, great walls, separating entire continents apart. Walls patrolled by Tribbles. Flying Tribbles. Flying Nukara Tribbles. Don't worry, it's not like they were on Venus with a herd of Tholians or anything, they just like the extreme heat and brutal weather like acid rain and hurricane force winds as the norm. Oh, and definitely keep your eye out on any two-tailed foxes, because if they ain't glowing, they're definitely an imposter. Possibly an Undine, we caught one of those once in my place once. Oh, and if you find a two-tailed fox that doesn't like the cold... most certainly ask him to say sorry. If he refuses, DESTROY HIM WITH A DOOMSDAY MACHINE, BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE THAT WOULD BE ENOUGH AGAINST SUCH AN OVERPOWERED IMPOSTER!

        tr;dr, I am winning last post wins 3.0. Thank you for your time.
        Oh, look, an explosion...
      • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
        i think its more about compensating for the smaller warp core so to keep them up with the ships with larger cores.
        So, they stick on more of the big long things because they're.. compensating? :wink:​​
        Lorna-Wing-sig.png
      • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
        admiralnat wrote: »
        artan42 wrote: »
        artan42 wrote: »
        thay8472 wrote: »
        artan42 wrote: »
        thay8472 wrote: »
        Dude ... It's a nebula class with two extra warp nacelles and no pod.

        Dude... It's a similar configuration but not the same parts. It's not a Nebula.

        It's a nebula variant without the pod.

        NebulaPrototype1_USS_Melbourne.jpg
        latest?cb=20131014234027&path-prefix=en
        0BeuvM9.jpg


        It has a similar shape but it is not made of the same parts. I am fully prepared to fight you to the death over this. That first image you posted is not the Melbourne it's a fan made image of the Nebula with nacelles in the place of the pod. The second I can't see it's too small but looks like the actual model and the third is also not the Melbourne or if it is it's the second version not the first one. Look at the secondary hull, the Nebula has a short cut off one that ends in a shuttlebay the Melbourne has an elongated one that ends in a flat point.

        Calling that pseudo-nebula class the Melbourne is incorrect, as the Melbourne was an Excelsior class. The name on that four nacelled ship was either incorrect from the beginning, or retconned by emissary. Personally I always thought the Melbourne was an Excelsior class just from watching BoBW, always had the impression that was the ship the Admiral was on.

        It has the name Melbourne written on its saucer. I'm not giving it any other name. Yes it creates an amusing snafoo with the Excelsior Melbourne but that's just Star Trek for you.

        Funny how the Prometheus has a similar issue involving a Nebula variant/ship similar to the Nebula and a 4 nacelled ship...​​
        given how many ships have been called enterprise, is it really surprising to see other names reused?
        -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
        My character Tsin'xing
        Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
      • danquellerdanqueller Member Posts: 501 Arc User
        edited January 2017
        From my own experience in Trek and Trek gaming, from the FASA game days to this game (and discounting all the ship designs put out as eye-candy without any thought as to actual Trek engineering), the one consistent element seems to be that ships with multiple warp nacelles were ships that needed more power for their systems (weaponry, shields, sensors, ect.) than normal, and I always understood that more warp nacelles produced more usable plasma for the EPS conduit system that provided the high-energy systems with their power sources. The tradeoff was that balancing the additional warp fields generated required more computer and engineering equipment, so one couldn't just keep adding nacelles for more and more power generation...anything beyond three became problematic, four was a nightmare, and mounting more than five simply resulted in a wormhole where a starship used to be.

        The other reason to use multiple nacelles was when a hull was simply too big for two nacelles to actually encompass fully, and more fields were needed to complete a warp envelope. These ships almost always had slower or average warp speeds and did not receive any real benefits over smaller ships with fewer nacelles as all the extra power provided was consumed in maintaining a larger warp envelope than normal. The benefits in these cases were that the ship could enter warp at all.

        My two cents.
      • danquellerdanqueller Member Posts: 501 Arc User
        edited January 2017
        thay8472 wrote: »
        Don't forget about the 4 nacelle Excelsior variant that played a major role in junkyards and debris fields.

        qualor5.jpg

        I would very seriously question anyone who thinks that is an Excelsior. The warp nacelles are not the correct proportions, are not the correct type, there appear to be two Secondary hulls that are not the same shape as that on an Excelsior or a rollbar connecting the upper two nacelles, and the Primary hull is either indistinct or out of proportion for an Excelsior. There is literally nothing about that ship that has any relation to an Excelsior-class starship.

        In short, the only thing making that a 4-nacelle Excelsior is someone slapping a label on a picture of another ship and wishing it were an Excelsior.
        Post edited by danqueller on
      • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
        it's an excelsior because word-of-god.
        -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
        My character Tsin'xing
        Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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