STO vrs Tv/Films: the debate

wendysue53

For those of us and others, who have browsed this forum on occasion, there is an argument that seems to pop up in nearly every single thread posted here. This one, however, is to give people a place to actually address this issue (since the rest of us are sick of hearing it or the lack of logic involved in the reasoning some people fail to provide).

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Should the films and 'current' canon of the overall franchise dictate and limit Star Trek Online to a minuscule area of the imagination as related to Star Trek? Or should Cryptic pursue the very basic mission upon which Star Trek was founded:



and only worry about getting CBS to write-off on anything 'New' or 'original' they might create?

Should new things be written into STO that have never been seen or appeared anywhere else in the star trek franchise - or should it slog along and only rehash the same worn-out material that was written in the 1970s?

If you think new or original STO-exclusive content should actually BE part of the game, say so!

If you feel that only the films have any right to create new things, by all means, state it here. (Be warned though - you'd better be able to give in-depth logical reasoning as to why.)

So, now the two contestants are up: Imagination/Creativity verses Blind Loyalty/Ignorance.

Which side of the debate do you stand on?

angrytarg

I do not see the point. STO is a Star Trek game like any other game out there. It's its own continuity and Cryptic can do whatever they want with it (and the IP holder approves). Star Trek canon and it's future development have literally nothing to do with STO. This is like asking wether the novels should be rewritten because anything in Star Trek canon changes.​​

peterconnorfirst

My take on it?

Since nobody in the entertainment industry cares about anything except making easy and fast money things like canon discussions are kind of obsolete and belong to the 90s.

Each to his own is the only “official” canon left.

Yes, for me Star Trek online is official Star Trek canon and this even includes the characters I made.

Why? Simple:

STO is the best and most substantial Star Trek release in over one decade and there is nothing else Trek related which has seen remotely as much love and dedication from producers and fans alike than this game.

I’ve spend countless hours of fun and excitement with my friends in STO the past 5 years and those memories simply are more important to me than any embarrassing book release, handy game or even the head scratching JJ films were able to provide.

For me personally even the new TV show has some pretty big shoes to fill in light of Star Trek Online.

Cryptic may do whatever they like with STO’s story. While I’m often skeptical with this games mechanics I never had any trouble to appreciate this game’s story and the art of its presentation within the Star Trek universe.

jorantomalak

Idk personally id like to see a star trek based on STO, like captain shon the first andorian captain of an enterprise etc etc.

lordsteve1

I assume that STO is canon with the shows & movies.

Why? Because even with the new Trek film in an alternate universe and the (again delayed) new show set in the past allegedly, nothing from STO will mess with what's being created outside of the game.
The events of STO add to what happened in the films & shows and have expanded on a great deal of subjects and plots that just never got the chance to shine in that medium.

Just thinking off the top of my head:

- The background to the bluegill creatures & elachi - we now know what was going on in that TNG plot, and we also have a reasonable idea why the silent enemy in Enterprise was stealing people.

- The whole story with the Tholians & Kal Dano and how he ends up being found in Enterprise. We know how the whole thing with the Tox Utat, Picard, Risa etc all joins up. We even know what the Na'kuhl were up to in WWII and why they were involved at all.

That's a couple of examples where the game has greatly expanded on what the shows did and has put together a decent plot to give better depth to it all.
In short STO is growing and expanding the canon plots and stories without really changing anything and messing things up.

angrytarg

lordsteve1 wrote: »

(...)
That's a couple of examples where the game has greatly expanded on what the shows did and has put together a decent plot to give better depth to it all.
In short STO is growing and expanding the canon plots and stories without really changing anything and messing things up.

I'd like to point out the highly subjective nature of plot "decency" ​​

captkelly31

STO should always do what it can to not limit itself by being just a carbon copy of the tv shows, with the plot/canon amnesia, recycled props, and the ship of the week being the ship of last week with some pitiful attempt at "alteration", in my opinion.

lordsteve1

angrytarg wrote: »

lordsteve1 wrote: »

(...)
That's a couple of examples where the game has greatly expanded on what the shows did and has put together a decent plot to give better depth to it all.
In short STO is growing and expanding the canon plots and stories without really changing anything and messing things up.

I'd like to point out the highly subjective nature of plot "decency" ​​

Fair point.

But until Cryptic commit a sin like creating something like Theshold i think they are pretty safely in the "decent" plot camp.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Threshold

jonsills

The original post is written in rather heavily slanted language, but I do agree with the basic thrust.

The five existing TV series, and the movies based (often loosely) on them, should be a permanent part of STO. However, they should be the point from which the game takes off, not a straitjacket forever limiting any future possibilities.

By all means, introduce new species from parts of the galaxy we haven't explored yet - "new life and new civilizations", you know. Respect the existing life forms, but stretch beyond those. And remember, we're not limited by the budget of a TV show, so our new aliens shouldn't all be humans with rubber foreheads - the Tzenkethi are a very nice move in that direction, and I'd like to see more variants on the concept. (For examples of reasonable yet completely nonhuman alien life forms, may I recommend Barlowe's Guide to Extraterrestrials by Wayne Barlowe, or much of the work of Larry Niven, creator of kzinti, kdatlyno, puppeteers, thrintun and tnuctipun, Moties, and Pak? Or Hal Clement, author of Mission of Gravity, or the even more extreme Dragon's Egg by Dr. Robert Forward, which hypothesizes a life form living on the surface of a neutron star...)​​

lathais

In reality, does what we think even matter. In Priority One Podcast's 300th Episode when the interviewed Geko he said they already have the next 8 years of content planned. So whatever we say or think doesn't make much of a difference, they are going to do what they have planned anyway.

lathais

somtaawkhar wrote: »

lathais wrote: »

he said they already have the next 8 years of content planned.

He said nothing of the sort, he said they had content planned all the out until 2018

I suggest you re-listen to it then. Especially the part around 1:45:00-1:50:00. They are talking about how now the game is officially older than any of the TV Series and he clearly states that they will be going a lot longer and they have 8.5 years of content planned.

I was actually watching it live at that point, but missed most of it and just re-listened to it yesterday. Was pretty sure my memory was not that bad, but you made me go double check myself. Yup, that's exactly what he said. My memory is not failing me yet.

leemwatson

As far as Cryptic and CBS has agreed in relation to STO, all the TV shows and Movies are canon to (and allowed to be referenced by) STO. All the storylines created by Cryptic are subject to approval by CBS with the exception of the Kelvin timeline episode which was Paramount and CBS combined.

So in answer to the OP's question, the only limitation to STO canon and content are the IP owners, not Cryptic.

Ironically, what isn't related to canon are the OP and unrealistic game mechanics!

lathais

somtaawkhar wrote: »

lathais wrote: »

I suffest you re-listen to it then. Especially the part around 1:45:00-1:50:00. They are talking about how now the game is officially older than any of the TV Series and he clearly states that they will be going a lot longer and they have 8.5 years of content planned.

Dude..... what he said was a joke.....

P1 says "The game has gone on as long as any TV show and longer then either ENT or ToS"
Gecko asks if one of them went on for 8 years
P1 is like "nope 7"
Gecko jokingly comments they have another 8.5 years of content planned!

Didn't sound like a joke to me, and seeing as planning not fully fleshed out content takes no time at all compared to developing said content, it made sense. Combined with the knowledge that some of the earliest MMOs out there are still releasing content 15-20 years after launch, it's entirely possible there is some sort of 8.5 year basic outline for the games future. Though I do have Asperger's and it is sometimes difficult for me to tell if something is a joke or not, so I could be wrong. The way the host said very seriously "Nice." right after it did not make it sound like a joke to me. No one else on the show laughed either. I do have a hard time distinguishing some jokes though, so it is a very real possibility I am wrong. At the time it did not seem that way to me though.

artan42

What a silly post. Even canon material is not bound to follow what came before it.

All this seeking new world and new civilisations? That fits TNG sure, but not TOS, that was a western, DS9 was a political stage, VOY was a TNG clone with c.rap characters, and ENT was a TOS clone with time travel. All the films except I and IV are basic revenge based action films (well VI is more political).

If you can find a single common theme to tie together 50 years, 6 (soon to be 7) TV shows and 13 (soon to be 14) films into one then you overgeneralise.

Also, canon here is a red herring and a distraction. Canon is the films and TV series, that hasn't changed, STO is a game so not included. It still has its own internal canon and can draw from any other licensed material (well except BEY, TAS, and DSC apparently).
But it's not limited to using official canon for its plots. It's unlikely that a non-canon concept will be used in STO over a canon one (say, for example, Jadiza is is still around in 2409 instead of having dies in DS97) but there's nothing to say they can't do that. STO is like any other licensed material from books to posters inside a DVD box, as long as CBS approves it's content (or possibly Paramount) that's what it is. It's still not going to affect the TV/Film universe.

lathais

somtaawkhar wrote: »

lathais wrote: »

Didn't sound like a joke to me, and seeing as planning not fully fleshed out content takes no time at all compared to developing said content, it made sense. Combined with the knowledge that some of the earliest MMOs out there are still releasing content 15-20 years after launch, it's entirely possible there is some sort of 8.5 year basic outline for the games future. Though I do have Asperger's and it is sometimes difficult for me to tell if something is a joke or not, so I could be wrong. The way the host said very seriously "Nice." right after it did not make it sound like a joke to me. No one else on the show laughed either. I do have a hard time distinguishing some jokes though, so it is a very real possibility I am wrong. At the time it did not seem that way to me though.

Gecko has said in the past that they have plans all the way out to expansion 5, and expansions come out every 1.5ish years. They have plans for STO all the way to the end of 2019, at most.

That would also make sense given that we have already explored most of the Beta Quadrant, the Delta Quadrant got its own expansion, they are expanding and filling out the Alpha quadrant next season, and the next expansion is very likely to be DS9/Gamma Quadrant focused.

By the time expansion 4 comes out, they will have basically done most everything they can do.

Expansion 5 is likely to be "The return of exploration clusters!"

How is that possible? How can they run out of stuff to do in a pretty much unlimited IP? They can go anywhere. They can go to new places that have never even been mentioned before. You even mentioned the Gamma Quadrant, which who knows how much new content and stuff they can throw in that area. Do we even have any sort of info on how big that areas is/could be? Where exactly in that quadrant the wormhole is? Is it semi-close to the border of an entire other quadrant they could open up? I mean, a large part of the entire IP is about exploring the unknown. They are not really limited by anything other than their own imagination.

lathais

somtaawkhar wrote: »

lathais wrote: »

How is that possible? How can they run out of stuff to do in a pretty much unlimited IP? They can go anywhere. They can go to new places that have never even been mentioned before. You even mentioned the Gamma Quadrant, which who knows how much new content and stuff they can throw in that area. Do we even have any sort of info on how big that areas is/could be? Where exactly in that quadrant the wormhole is? Is it semi-close to the border of an entire other quadrant they could open up? I mean, a large part of the entire IP is about exploring the unknown. They are not really limited by anything other than their own imagination.

How it is possible for them to run out of content?

Because STO is based around the episodes/movies, and answering leftover questions from the episodes/movies, and when you have run out of questions to answer(or at least ones you can easily turn into narratives), you have run out of content.

And we have a general idea of what the Gamma Quadrant looks like.

Given what we got in Delta Rising, I would suspect a Gamma quadrant expansion would cover the white boxed area around the wormhole at the bottom part of the map.

-snip-

Why though? Who says the are limited to just finishing up leftover questions? Who says that they can not do anything new? They have already added some new stuff, why not more? There's a lot more area on that map than just the area in white. What is to stop them from going there?

anazonda

STO left the prime timeline at the latest when they added the Bug ship to the playable roster.

The whole idea that Cryptic is capable of following the established canon at this point is pure fantasy of some people.
Heck.. I am just waiting for the X304 to be added to the game at this point.

lathais

somtaawkhar wrote: »

lathais wrote: »

Why though? Who says the are limited to just finishing up leftover questions? Who says that they can not do anything new? They have already added some new stuff, why not more? There's a lot more area on that map than just the area in white. What is to stop them from going there?

Because thats how they want to make the game, and how they have made the game since the begging.

When the game originally came out it had a number of "original" alien species, almost all of which except the Deferi and Lukari have been retroactively removed as they revamped the game's content. And the Deferi are based off of the Capellans from ToS, and the Lukari were loosely based on the dead alien in the time travel pod from ENT(who they made into Kal Dano)

Star Trek already has like 800 named species, and several hundred more unnamed ones, in canon lore. And its limited exploration of 95% of those has made it infamously be known as being "wide as a galaxy, deep as a puddle"

Adding new alien races does nothing to improve the depth of the series, all it does is serve to widen an already wide beyond reason puddle of races with limited background.

The writers on the Trek shows fought against Gene as much as they could to try to change this, and after Gene got too frail to be involved, they finally were able to change it, which is why the later parts of TNG, most of Voyager, and basically all of DS9, and ENT, where focused on more reappearing aliens rather then making up new ones every episode.

While the "fire and forget" style that ToS ran on was ok for its time, TV, and audiences, changed by the time of TNG, and Trek changed with it.

Yet there ARE some new aliens still in the game AND there is at least one brand new never seen or heard of before alien appearing in Discovery right? I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they should or will go all monster of the week and stuff, but inventing a new race or two and really diving in to their history over the course of a few episodes doesn't really seem out of the question once they run out of loose ends to tie up, which with the appearance of the Tzenkethi seems they already are starting to.

Other MMOs do the same thing. Look at the behemoth on the market, even though I personally do not find it fun anymore. It was based off previous games and they had lore to draw from. When they ran out, they started introducing new stuff, because it was still profitable.

That's the thing to remember, first and foremost. Cryptic is a business and businesses like to make money. So when they run out of content from the shows, like you say they will, what makes you think they'll just stop producing content and let the game die? That's just not gonna happen. They will continue to create content until the game stops being profitable. Then they will gut the dev team and leave a skeleton crew running it so it keeps making money as they have less dev costs. They'll then still keep releasing new content at a slower rate.

jonsills

I must respectfully disagree, Artan; while TOS was sold as "Wagon Train to the stars", in point of fact it was far more in the way of "seeking out new life and new civilizations", usually by way of heavy-handed political allegory.

TNG actually did quite a lot less of this - the Galaxy-class was supposed to be basically a starbase with a warp drive, capable of operating for years without returning to its starting point, but Jean-Luc bebopped around largely (I am tempted to say mostly) within thoroughly-explored space and known planets. It didn't help that they had instantaneous communications with Starfleet Command no matter where they were (while Kirk could be out of touch for prolonged periods - when transmitting a message from just inside the Romulan Neutral Zone in "The Deadly Years", Uhura notes that Command won't receive the message for at least a week).​​

steinberg

My simple-possibly too simple take on canon based stories or game comtent is this:

Canon changes in relationship to the skiils of the people creating the content.
If the content is approved by the owners of a franchise does it not become canon to the producers of the original product.
Also is canon actually better ?
Or is there room to develop without a constrictive frame of referemce.

Some ,actually a lot of sto content is suprisingly good considering the framework.
Sloppy writng sometimes-but better than a lot of current tv shows,movies and many other mmo games i would say.

A few of the developers are quite creative on this game given a chance.

I for one see this as more of a based on Star Trek rather than canon Star Trek game.

it has good and bad points like all such games.

artan42

jonsills wrote: »

I must respectfully disagree, Artan; while TOS was sold as "Wagon Train to the stars", in point of fact it was far more in the way of "seeking out new life and new civilizations", usually by way of heavy-handed political allegory.

TNG actually did quite a lot less of this - the Galaxy-class was supposed to be basically a starbase with a warp drive, capable of operating for years without returning to its starting point, but Jean-Luc bebopped around largely (I am tempted to say mostly) within thoroughly-explored space and known planets. It didn't help that they had instantaneous communications with Starfleet Command no matter where they were (while Kirk could be out of touch for prolonged periods - when transmitting a message from just inside the Romulan Neutral Zone in "The Deadly Years", Uhura notes that Command won't receive the message for at least a week).​​

That could well be true. I've seen very few episodes of TOS or TNG, but the ones of TOS I have seen still put me in mind of a western. TNG I remeber being in Federation space for the most part, but I watched the first few series on Sc-Fi after they'd been remastered, and other than the occasional episode of being called back to Earth or some such, I don't remeber a recurring race or theme and I recall a lot of the unknown.

fruitvendor12

leemwatson wrote: »

So in answer to the OP's question, the only limitation to STO canon and content are the IP owners, not Cryptic.

Agreed. Posting these sentiments on a Cryptic site is a misfire. Take it up with CBS and Paramount.

As much as entertainment content can fire up the human imagination and lead to real STEM and social change, at the end of the day it is created to sell soap and home appliances.​​

wendysue53

artan42 wrote: »

That could well be true. I've seen very few episodes of TOS or TNG, but the ones of TOS I have seen still put me in mind of a western. TNG I remeber being in Federation space for the most part, but I watched the first few series on Sc-Fi after they'd been remastered, and other than the occasional episode of being called back to Earth or some such, I don't remeber a recurring race or theme and I recall a lot of the unknown.

@Artan42, all I can say from what you've just posted is that if you've only seen a few of TOS or TNG episodes, then you REALLY need to stock up on some munchies and watch the whole series, starting from episode one. They may have been episodic and the tv companies love to play shows they can just mix up at random, but there is an over-all story going on in these that require actually watching them all the way through in order to really appreciate them.

Star Trek: The Original Series - 79 episodes/ 3 seasons.
(might as well throw the TOS movies in about this point before watch TNG, too...)
Star Trek: The Next Generation - 178 episodes/ 7 seasons.
(should watch the TNG films about now as well, then on with the rest... of whatever)

Two thumbs up on Artan doing a couple of months worth of a Star Trek watching marathon!




Lots of munchies... and soda. lot's of nachos and cheese. and drinks.
no beer... drunk audience is a confused audience...

As for the western comment, I think Kirk is often referred to as a Space Cowboy, but you're probably referring to the low-budget spaghetti-western feel of TOS. And it was! Low-budget in the extreme. It had to be.

If you spend 3+ hours a day on it (roughly 3 shows), you'll get done in about 3 to 4 months (or) 3 weeks of non-stop, caffeine-riddled, red-eyed show after show after show, drop-dead when it's over style of marathon. Your choice.

Now if you want to watch ALL of the star trek shows...