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A2B revisited

I know, A2B is kinda old news these days, but, with the advent of the Krenim doffs and the Peak Efficiency Trait, I'd like some clarification, please. Keep in mind math is not my strong suit. :P

So, each purple Technician reduces boff abilities cd by 10%, right? And Peak Efficiency reduces all boff cd by 7.5% each 5 secs (when hull above 80%). So, ideally, you'd get a 3x 7.5% cd reduction with Peak Efficiency (within a 15 secs span). Amirite?!

So, 3x 7.5% = 22.5% cd reduction. Except, of course, you're only getting half of that, 11.25% (as a 100% cd reduction actually means 50% of total). And Krenim boffs each add another 10% reduction too.

So, 11.25% isn't enough, of course, to 'emulate' a2b. But here is where I get confuzzled: why is it that the 3x 10% cd reduction of the purple Technicians *does* work?!

So, to make this practical, how many purple Technicians could I ditch with Peak Efficiency slotted? (And assuming I always stay above 80% hull, which is a reasonably fair assumption for me as Fed Engineer).

Thanks for reading.
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Comments

  • lsegnlsegn Member Posts: 594 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    The problem isn't DOFF slots its nuking your auxilliary power levels. How do you intend to stay healed above 80% with no aux power? It's a self-defeating combination.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    lsegn wrote: »
    The problem isn't DOFF slots its nuking your auxilliary power levels. How do you intend to stay healed above 80% with no aux power? It's a self-defeating combination.

    Like I said, I'm a Fed Engineer. :) I have access to double-tap Miracle Worker, and can simply use an aux battery for when I need HE1 real bad. Trust me, on all my a2b builds (and others) I rarely get below 80% hull.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    @lsegn I still use a2b and do about 200k dps so it's still fairly competitive. Also have no trouble healing myself. You just need the right skills. As for the ops question I'm curious to know the answer as well...lots of stuff now that reduce cool downs wondering what the most efficient combination of doffs, boffs, and traits really is now with a2b.
    Tza0PEl.png
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    nikephorus wrote: »
    As for the ops question I'm curious to know the answer as well...lots of stuff now that reduce cool downs wondering what the most efficient combination of doffs, boffs, and traits really is now with a2b.

    ^^ Thanks for understanding where I'm coming from. ;) I don't do near as much DPS as you (not even close, LOL), but yes, I'd love to know how the synergy of all these new Traits/boffs works, and see whether a2b can be 'modernized' a bit.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    There's a thread on reddit about krenim boffs and cooldown reductions that I got a lot of info from.

    I think this is it, but I'm not sure: https://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/3dbpd4/krenim_boffs_so_uh_how_about_dem_3x_stacks_of_10/

    With that said. In a Chronos Temporal Dreadnaught, with 3 points in Eng/Tac/Sci Readiness, 1 eng Krenim doff, and the Tactical System Stabilizer and Chronotachyon Capacitor consoles I have most of my eng powers really close to global cooldown. I think with a little more effort I can get all eng and tac powers to global without the need for a2b. Currently I have a 10 second cooldown on Aux2SIF III.

    Hope that helps :smile:
  • lsegnlsegn Member Posts: 594 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    Interesting question that depends entirley on your set-up. If you run a specialization heavy build i expect A2B would be more useful. That being said with things like the Delta rep console, Temporal rep T2 trait, Highly Specialized starship trait, krenim boffs, Archon trait, Ouroboros trait, AHOD, Recioprocity etc. Theres no shortage of ways to get your cooldowns to global these days.
  • lsegnlsegn Member Posts: 594 Arc User
    And strategist spec of course...
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    rmy1081 wrote: »
    There's a thread on reddit about krenim boffs and cooldown reductions that I got a lot of info from.

    I think this is it, but I'm not sure: https://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/3dbpd4/krenim_boffs_so_uh_how_about_dem_3x_stacks_of_10/

    With that said. In a Chronos Temporal Dreadnaught, with 3 points in Eng/Tac/Sci Readiness, 1 eng Krenim doff, and the Tactical System Stabilizer and Chronotachyon Capacitor consoles I have most of my eng powers really close to global cooldown. I think with a little more effort I can get all eng and tac powers to global without the need for a2b. Currently I have a 10 second cooldown on Aux2SIF III.

    Hope that helps :smile:

    It *did* help. :) Thx. I don't have the Tactical System Stabilizer and Chronotachyon Capacitor (that I know of, LOL). But I had completely forgotten about the trade 'readiness' skills. I may need a respec, as, obviously, being able to get things close to global is worth sacrificing a bit of something else for. Great input!
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    lsegn wrote: »
    Interesting question that depends entirley on your set-up. If you run a specialization heavy build i expect A2B would be more useful. That being said with things like the Delta rep console, Temporal rep T2 trait, Highly Specialized starship trait, krenim boffs, Archon trait, Ouroboros trait, AHOD, Recioprocity etc. Theres no shortage of ways to get your cooldowns to global these days.


    Yeah. And, like I said, I'm not even hoping I can completely forego on a2b (would be nice if I could, of course); but even just modernizing it a bit, like removing a few purple Technicians, or using Krenim boffs (as a Fed, I can only use SRO's for Tact) and Peak Efficiency, would already help.

    P.S. Just did my first test, with 1 less purple Technician. In the haze of battle, I always find it hard to watch cd's too; but it seemed like I experienced no negative effect of losing the 1 Technician.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    rmy1081 wrote: »
    There's a thread on reddit about krenim boffs and cooldown reductions that I got a lot of info from.

    I think this is it, but I'm not sure: https://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/3dbpd4/krenim_boffs_so_uh_how_about_dem_3x_stacks_of_10/

    With that said. In a Chronos Temporal Dreadnaught, with 3 points in Eng/Tac/Sci Readiness, 1 eng Krenim doff, and the Tactical System Stabilizer and Chronotachyon Capacitor consoles I have most of my eng powers really close to global cooldown. I think with a little more effort I can get all eng and tac powers to global without the need for a2b. Currently I have a 10 second cooldown on Aux2SIF III.

    Hope that helps :smile:

    It *did* help. :) Thx. I don't have the Tactical System Stabilizer and Chronotachyon Capacitor (that I know of, LOL). But I had completely forgotten about the trade 'readiness' skills. I may need a respec, as, obviously, being able to get things close to global is worth sacrificing a bit of something else for. Great input!


    Yeah, no, LOL. Turns out I actually *do* have the Tactical System Stabilizer (from the Temporal Raider). Doh! Never noticed the Tactical Readiness part. Interesting times. :)
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    @meimeitoo you dropped one technician and used peak efficiency and didn't notice a difference?
    Tza0PEl.png
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    nikephorus wrote: »
    @meimeitoo you dropped one technician and used peak efficiency and didn't notice a difference?

    Yes. :) But, like I said, it's hard to tell in battle. Which is why I asked the math people for some clarification.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    nikephorus wrote: »
    @meimeitoo you dropped one technician and used peak efficiency and didn't notice a difference?


    I did some more testing. I used 2 'pairs' for this test: EPtW3/EPtS1 and APO3/APL2 (APL cd is just like APB). Both setups with only 2 purple Tecchnician doffs, Peak Efficiency, and 2 Krenim Engi boffs. I activated the first in the pair, then activated the first a2b copy, then the second (the second copy goes immediately to 10 secs, because of Krenim boffs + first a2b), then the second ability, etc. Both abilities wind up having a perfect 100% uptime overlap. :) I.e., you have both EPtW3 and EPtS1 running 100% of the time. Same for APO3/APL2.

    P.S. Not about this topic per se, but I'm kinda sad we're not lively talking mechanics any more on the forum, like we used to. :( Guess most ppl already know most things, or simply don't want to share any more. That used to be different.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    P.S. Not about this topic per se, but I'm kinda sad we're not lively talking mechanics any more on the forum, like we used to. :( Guess most ppl already know most things, or simply don't want to share any more. That used to be different.

    Yeah, I agree... I wish people would share more. You still get a lot of advice on popular builds and there's a lot of excitement on science/torpedo builds but other build ideas don't get much attention anymore.

    One question: Are you using A2B and the Krenim boffs?

    With my build I'm using 1 Krenim Engineering Boff, 2pc maco (for the 5% reduction), Bio-Neural Gel Pack for the 7% reduction, 3 points into Readiness, and the Chrono-Capacitor Array trait. That gives me just a 1 second gap between EPTW and EPTS. If I switch to one of the 31st Century ships and use the consoles with Readiness, I get a nearly perfect uptime. That's all without A2B. It may not be optimal, but it's on an alt. I'm sure if I put some effort into it, I could get a more efficient way of bringing cooldowns to global.

    In any case, thanks for bringing these ideas up :)
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,326 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    lsegn wrote: »
    The problem isn't DOFF slots its nuking your auxilliary power levels. How do you intend to stay healed above 80% with no aux power? It's a self-defeating combination.

    You use passive shield and hull healing or active heals that don't use Aux. Its possible to get passive so high you don't need heals and Eng Team is an active heal which doesn't need Aux. A passive heal based torp boat can get away with no weapon or aux power.
  • nephitisnephitis Member Posts: 456 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    I know, A2B is kinda old news these days, but, with the advent of the Krenim doffs and the Peak Efficiency Trait, I'd like some clarification, please. Keep in mind math is not my strong suit. :P

    So, each purple Technician reduces boff abilities cd by 10%, right? And Peak Efficiency reduces all boff cd by 7.5% each 5 secs (when hull above 80%). So, ideally, you'd get a 3x 7.5% cd reduction with Peak Efficiency (within a 15 secs span). Amirite?!

    So, 3x 7.5% = 22.5% cd reduction. Except, of course, you're only getting half of that, 11.25% (as a 100% cd reduction actually means 50% of total). And Krenim boffs each add another 10% reduction too.

    So, 11.25% isn't enough, of course, to 'emulate' a2b. But here is where I get confuzzled: why is it that the 3x 10% cd reduction of the purple Technicians *does* work?!

    So, to make this practical, how many purple Technicians could I ditch with Peak Efficiency slotted? (And assuming I always stay above 80% hull, which is a reasonably fair assumption for me as Fed Engineer).

    Thanks for reading.

    Before I start I would like to point out that the Krenim BOFFs do not cut cooldowns by a flat 10% per bridge officer. Instead you could say that they alter the speed of a second inside each cooldown timer. For example, the first 10% will technically reduce 1.0 second down to 0.9. The second 10% will further reduce this but it is important to acknowledge that there may be in fact be diminishing return, but could be inperceivable for a player to deduce based on visual fact. In other words, the second 10% may be calculated from 0.9, thus resulting in a reduction down to 0.81. The third 10% may therefore result in an effective value of 0.73 second.

    Now, it is also important to know that the Peak Efficiency starship trait also has diminishing returns depending on the remaining time on each cooldown. In other words, the 7.5% reduction every few seconds will be calculated on the current remaining cooldown. An ability starting at 60 seconds will therefore see a reduction to 55.5 seconds, whereas something at 20 seconds will only see a reduction down to 18.5.

    Let's also not forget Engineer, Science and Tactical Readiness from the skill tree. These ones are triggered at the very start of their respective class cooldowns. Anything else is calculated after that with diminishing returns. However, one of the very few things that are unaffected by these diminishing returns are the DOFFs that provide a flat X amount of seconds in reduction if triggered.

    Anyways, there is a way to keep the costs down when it comes to overutilizing cooldown reductions and being hit severely by diminishing return penalties. I personally think that the way to do that is to first utilize DOFFs to reduce your cooldowns, followed by starship traits and last by BOFFs.

    I mean, let's say you prefer to use Emergency Power to Weapons and tactical beam/cannon abilities. In that scenario it would better for you to use each respective DOFFs to reduce your cooldowns for these abilities. You can then further enhance those cooldown reductions with Peak Efficiency, but leaving out the BOFFs. Why? Because you can use other BOFFs that may provide better bonuses in the long run. For example, the Embassy/Romulan BOFFs that provide CritH or the K13 BOFFs that provide bonuses to to your skills.
  • nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    I've personally been apprehensive about removing technicians and using traits and or krenim boffs instead because of how wonky they work at reducing cool downs. Additionally, the krenim boffs only affecting their own career is quite limiting in my opinion. Peak efficiency also has that 80% hull stipulation. Most of the time that's fine, but those times you do end up taking heavy damage and really need your heals to come off cool down they may not be there.
    Tza0PEl.png
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    rmy1081 wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    P.S. Not about this topic per se, but I'm kinda sad we're not lively talking mechanics any more on the forum, like we used to. :( Guess most ppl already know most things, or simply don't want to share any more. That used to be different.

    Yeah, I agree... I wish people would share more. You still get a lot of advice on popular builds and there's a lot of excitement on science/torpedo builds but other build ideas don't get much attention anymore.

    One question: Are you using A2B and the Krenim boffs?

    With my build I'm using 1 Krenim Engineering Boff, 2pc maco (for the 5% reduction), Bio-Neural Gel Pack for the 7% reduction, 3 points into Readiness, and the Chrono-Capacitor Array trait. That gives me just a 1 second gap between EPTW and EPTS. If I switch to one of the 31st Century ships and use the consoles with Readiness, I get a nearly perfect uptime. That's all without A2B. It may not be optimal, but it's on an alt. I'm sure if I put some effort into it, I could get a more efficient way of bringing cooldowns to global.

    In any case, thanks for bringing these ideas up :)


    Thank you kindly for all the excellent ideas! :) It's really impressive that you get so far wothout even using a2b.

    I completely forgot about the Chrono-Capacitor Array Trait! But I have the Bio-Neural Gel Pack too, and a 31st Century ship.

    To answer your question, yes, I'm using 2 Engi Krenim boffs (I'm a Fed Engineer, so I can't use SRO's in those slots anyway), to bring the 2 copies of a2b just a wee closer to each other.

    Readiness skills are 'expensive' (in the sense of their high-Tiered position), but I shall see what I can do. :)
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    nikephorus wrote: »
    I've personally been apprehensive about removing technicians and using traits and or krenim boffs instead because of how wonky they work at reducing cool downs. Additionally, the krenim boffs only affecting their own career is quite limiting in my opinion. Peak efficiency also has that 80% hull stipulation. Most of the time that's fine, but those times you do end up taking heavy damage and really need your heals to come off cool down they may not be there.

    I agree that Krenim boffs affecting only their own career is kinda limiting; but, in this case, for me, I just use them to bring the 2 copies of a2b closer to each other, and that affects the whole too, of course (albeit marginal).
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    nephitis wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    I know, A2B is kinda old news these days, but, with the advent of the Krenim doffs and the Peak Efficiency Trait, I'd like some clarification, please. Keep in mind math is not my strong suit. :P

    So, each purple Technician reduces boff abilities cd by 10%, right? And Peak Efficiency reduces all boff cd by 7.5% each 5 secs (when hull above 80%). So, ideally, you'd get a 3x 7.5% cd reduction with Peak Efficiency (within a 15 secs span). Amirite?!

    So, 3x 7.5% = 22.5% cd reduction. Except, of course, you're only getting half of that, 11.25% (as a 100% cd reduction actually means 50% of total). And Krenim boffs each add another 10% reduction too.

    So, 11.25% isn't enough, of course, to 'emulate' a2b. But here is where I get confuzzled: why is it that the 3x 10% cd reduction of the purple Technicians *does* work?!

    So, to make this practical, how many purple Technicians could I ditch with Peak Efficiency slotted? (And assuming I always stay above 80% hull, which is a reasonably fair assumption for me as Fed Engineer).

    Thanks for reading.

    Before I start I would like to point out that the Krenim BOFFs do not cut cooldowns by a flat 10% per bridge officer. Instead you could say that they alter the speed of a second inside each cooldown timer. For example, the first 10% will technically reduce 1.0 second down to 0.9. The second 10% will further reduce this but it is important to acknowledge that there may be in fact be diminishing return, but could be inperceivable for a player to deduce based on visual fact. In other words, the second 10% may be calculated from 0.9, thus resulting in a reduction down to 0.81. The third 10% may therefore result in an effective value of 0.73 second.

    Now, it is also important to know that the Peak Efficiency starship trait also has diminishing returns depending on the remaining time on each cooldown. In other words, the 7.5% reduction every few seconds will be calculated on the current remaining cooldown. An ability starting at 60 seconds will therefore see a reduction to 55.5 seconds, whereas something at 20 seconds will only see a reduction down to 18.5.

    Let's also not forget Engineer, Science and Tactical Readiness from the skill tree. These ones are triggered at the very start of their respective class cooldowns. Anything else is calculated after that with diminishing returns. However, one of the very few things that are unaffected by these diminishing returns are the DOFFs that provide a flat X amount of seconds in reduction if triggered.

    Anyways, there is a way to keep the costs down when it comes to overutilizing cooldown reductions and being hit severely by diminishing return penalties. I personally think that the way to do that is to first utilize DOFFs to reduce your cooldowns, followed by starship traits and last by BOFFs.

    I mean, let's say you prefer to use Emergency Power to Weapons and tactical beam/cannon abilities. In that scenario it would better for you to use each respective DOFFs to reduce your cooldowns for these abilities. You can then further enhance those cooldown reductions with Peak Efficiency, but leaving out the BOFFs. Why? Because you can use other BOFFs that may provide better bonuses in the long run. For example, the Embassy/Romulan BOFFs that provide CritH or the K13 BOFFs that provide bonuses to to your skills.


    Thanks for the detailed math on this! (I knew I had it wrong *g) It's especially useful to realize how the percentage cooldowns effectively have diminishing rerturns.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • thunderfoot#5163 thunderfoot Member Posts: 4,545 Arc User
    Good stuff here. Hadn't thought about A2B builds in a very long time. This thread has changed that. Alway good whenever someone thinks outside the box about ship builds in this game. Please continue to share what you learn with the rest of us and thank you for sharing what you already have lerned.
    A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
  • baudlbaudl Member Posts: 4,060 Arc User
    just wanted to add, if it wasn't mentioned already, that the ultimate from the tac skill tree makes the whole concept redundent. (Unfortunately) I fly an A2B cruiser and have that tac ultimate skilled, meaning, that everytime I use it, my A2B build becomes redundent for the duration. Not that it matters anyway.
    Go pro or go home
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    baudl wrote: »
    just wanted to add, if it wasn't mentioned already, that the ultimate from the tac skill tree makes the whole concept redundent. (Unfortunately) I fly an A2B cruiser and have that tac ultimate skilled, meaning, that everytime I use it, my A2B build becomes redundent for the duration. Not that it matters anyway.


    What do you mean, redundant?! 3 points in Tactical Readiness gives you a max Total Ability Recharge Bonus of 20%, right? Surely that's not enough to make a2b redunant, is it?! Or is there even another ultimate skill I'm missing?
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • nikeixnikeix Member Posts: 3,972 Arc User
    Frenzy. The "ultimates" generally refer to the abilities you get from reaching the end of the three progress tracks at the bottom of the skill page, not the highest tier skills themselves.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    nikeix wrote: »
    Frenzy. The "ultimates" generally refer to the abilities you get from reaching the end of the three progress tracks at the bottom of the skill page, not the highest tier skills themselves.

    Ah, thx. :)
    3lsZz0w.jpg
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