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naj'sov: [Issue Resolved-and in under a year!!]

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  • r5e4w3q2r5e4w3q2 Member Posts: 341 Arc User
    nikeix wrote: »
    It's a fascinating "bug" indeed that not only disables it on the ship, but neatly goes through and trims the text out of the product description...

    Sadly most of the in-game product descriptions of the KDF version of bundle ships have similar issues, missing mention of cloaks, cannons or stat block changes from the FED version.



  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Let us see...

    Command Cruiser: 30 bucks
    Flagship: No **** way I'll put myself through the experience of flying a Bortasque again just for a trait. NOT HAPPENING. Wasted a week on Tribble with the thing and I will never do that again, much less pay money for the privilege.
    Rezereth: Don't own it. have to look this one up.
    Command Cruiser: another 30 bucks.
    Lockbox: too rich for my blood either way (in keys or EC).
    Weapon system Synergy: Got it, (the Vet ship is actually pretty neat at tier six.)
    I figured that since you were always arguing for more Klingon support you were the type of guy that tried to get as many KDF ships as you could get to support the Klingon cause...
    If you don't usually build torpedo boats and don't craft, getting the Projectiles crafting school to get the trait that gives your torpedoes 10 % shield penetration would be a good idea, but that will take some time.

    I've got two B'rel Torp boats. command/pilot spec. They both work pretty well. Tachyon Dispersal might make them work better, but putting myself through the time to level a ship that I don't like flying that many times just for the trait seems kinda pointless. I have limited leisure time, and limits on funds. I prefer to invest the time in things I enjoy, I already made a mistake on the money.

    [/quote]
    If you got the pilot spec - ever tried going back to the Tier 5 Bortasque and see howit flies now? It still has less turn rate then the Tier 6 one, but today I flew the Captain Tier Temporal ship, Gemini or what it's called, and was surprised how slow it turned - none of my ships turn even remotely that slow at Level 60 with Pilot as secondary or primary spec.


    believe it or not, I did listen to Borticus' interview on Temporal spec, I'm aware of both how it's supposed to be (a big boost to sci and exotic), and how nifty it is (very). Is it nifty enough to fly a "Klingon" ship that doesn't act like a Klingon ship? IMHO not so much-in other people's? well, duh. But I suspect most of those are already flying Fed.
    Well, if you want to fly a Science Vessel, but want to fly it like something that's not a Science Vessel, why do you want a Science Vessel? It's almost as if a Fed player had been saying (backk in the ancient days). "Oh, why do the Feds don't have a Carrier! I want a Carrier" and then Cryptic releases a Carrier you say "yeah, but this isn't really a Fed like Carrier, it's not the Fed way to use pets to kill stuff!"

    I always figured the demand for Science Vessels by KDF players was because they preferred playing Klingon for story/RP reasons, but they still wanted the Science Vessel gameplay. The Nebula will deliver that. But if you wanted something else, I dunno.. You got something else with BoPs and Cloak and what not.

    It's not a matter of "Something for Science" as much as "Something identifiably KLINGON". come on, you can mount them on the worst platform for DHC or DC in the game (Bortasque, Vo'Quv)-because those are allegedly Klingon designs. (The Vo'quv, well, Klingons had carriers first, but the Bortasque was clearly a Fed industrial espionage success story.) Likewise for Cloak-there are only two other ships that can't in the KLINGON (not gorn or Orion) arsenal: one of those is a Carrier, and the other one comes from a timeline cut off when Janeway traveled time by "Temporal Affairs" (Korath, Look it up in Mem Alpha.)

    The gripe isn't that it isn't statistically a good Science ship, it's that it's not a KLINGON ship (skin and name notwithstanding.)
    Not every Klingon ship needs cloak. Klingons (in canon) didn't always have cloak, and in STO, the Vo'Quv didn't cloak either.

    But anyway, I think the lack of ability to use DCs and the lack of Cloak just seems an error to me. It just doesn't make sense if one looks at the usual Cross-Faction packs. I see no real reason why the Science Vessel shouldn't have them. It's just another B'Rolth type screwup and we can only hope that they'll find the spare or off-time to change it.
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  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    @patrickngo
    The T6 Bortasque doesn't have all the weird penalties like terrible inertia, crappy cloak, and bad turn rate, that the T5 Bortasque has. Check out the stats. They're actually really good ships.
  • alcyoneserenealcyoneserene Member Posts: 2,413 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    nikeix wrote: »
    nightken wrote: »
    you forgetting one of the unwritten rules of life, it doesn't matter how wrong you are if there are enough of you.

    Yay, the mob rule argument. You might be surprised how often said mobs don't reach critical mass and end up chum for history's sharks :astonished:.
    if people can sue companies over imaginary promise and win, which they have. that disclaimer isn't worth the time it took to copy and paste.

    See, the problem is some people are looking at that statement I keep copy/pasting as an insignificant footnote to be causally disregarded in favor of their cries of "but I wanna!" But then again that's usually the same people that think the EULA their eyes glazed over on before they clicked "yeah, sure" means nothing until someone rolls it up and whacks them on the nose with it.

    What I see is the crucial boilerplate that allows them to talk to us at all.

    A wealth of counter-arguments and evidence has been presented against your main point, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is: you claim you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this was a design choice (and not a bug/accidental omission) in the sense of "we removed cloak on this ship because we've change our minds and we're legally entitled to do so" on the basis of your other claim that it is not cryptic blogs but in-game performance (after buying it, one cannot test c-store ships on tribble) and in-game c-store stats.

    So I suggest to go back and more carefully read the evidence and points made, and offer something worthwhile counter to it, but repeating the 'they have the right, people here don't get it, therefore it's a design choice' is just repetition of something old backed up by nothing but your very own conviction.
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  • alcyoneserenealcyoneserene Member Posts: 2,413 Arc User
    Related topic on reddit which may have more visibility to Devs and therefore is more likely to provide some definitive answer.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/5f3ny7/najsov_research_vessel_sans_cloak_no_dhc_use/
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  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    Not much help with the cloaking issue (which reminds me of a similar furore I remember from a watch forum about ten years ago*) but, have you tried loading every weapon slot on the ship with a Mk XII Polaron Turret, and loading two BOFFs with tactical team I and cannon rapid fire? (If it has two available tac seats, of course, I'm not failiar with the specs) because all polaron turrets, comined with cannon rapid fire, is f*cking sweet! :D Remember how much I hated on the Archon? I still do, but the Kool-Aid build means it doesn't need a science BOFF, and makes it enjoyable (for me) enough to actually keep as a listed ship, as opposed to dry-docking or dismissing... If you can only seat one tac Lt, you don't get the full effect, but two, refreshing the firing cycle every fifteen seconds... Well, I'll let you see for yourself ;)


    *A watch was being released which was listed as having an ETA movement, but when someone got the back off, all that was installed, was an Asian clone movement, not an actual ETA... Sure, they both tell the time, can both be regulated to the same tolerances and accept the same parts, but at the end of the day, people were pi**ed that they weren't receiving what had been advertized...
  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Not much help with the cloaking issue (which reminds me of a similar furore I remember from a watch forum about ten years ago*) but, have you tried loading every weapon slot on the ship with a Mk XII Polaron Turret, and loading two BOFFs with tactical team I and cannon rapid fire? (If it has two available tac seats, of course, I'm not failiar with the specs) because all polaron turrets, comined with cannon rapid fire, is f*cking sweet! :D Remember how much I hated on the Archon? I still do, but the Kool-Aid build means it doesn't need a science BOFF, and makes it enjoyable (for me) enough to actually keep as a listed ship, as opposed to dry-docking or dismissing... If you can only seat one tac Lt, you don't get the full effect, but two, refreshing the firing cycle every fifteen seconds... Well, I'll let you see for yourself ;)

    I run a Polaron build on a fleet Norgh, and have since...oh...2013? It's not a true 'vaper' build, but gets good numbers and the power levels stay nice and high for engines, weapons, sheilds, and aux when combined with a Leech and the old, pre-reputation, assimilated set (all four pieces).

    but then, I DO run a sci boff on it-for Hazards and Sci-Team (cleanses), Engineering team (cleanses and hull heal) and, of course, Tactical team (because shield redistribution is GOOD.)
    Sweet :D Is that beams, cannons or turrets? I just figured the Kool-Aid build might help turn a less than satisfactory ship, into a tolerable one for you B)
  • kodachikunokodachikuno Member Posts: 6,020 Arc User1
    look at it this way... at absolute worst, even if you have to flip sh it over the lack of cloak and/or cannons, you bought a ship that's a slap in the face of Gecko's comments about science and/or klingon not selling
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    tacofangs wrote: »
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  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    rmy1081 wrote: »
    @patrickngo
    The T6 Bortasque doesn't have all the weird penalties like terrible inertia, crappy cloak, and bad turn rate, that the T5 Bortasque has. Check out the stats. They're actually really good ships.
    Shhh... let him rant.

    He did this in the Klingon forums. Don't mention the turn rate increases to 9.5 when it slots two Flagship consoles or that pilot specialization further increases the turn to around 13. Additionally, each Flagship can slot Gravity Well (the Gorkon can slot 2 copies). Each Flagship can not only maintain fire on it's primary target; it can smash several targets into the tiny arc of Dual Heavies to make CSV more effective.

    Just let it be.
  • gaalomgaalom Member Posts: 530 Arc User
    If they screwed up a Fed ship like this, there would be a 10 to 20 page rant, and a dev would have responded. It being a klingon ship means it must be a few people just ranting for no reason. If you can not understand what I just said go home and go to bed.

    As for the Bortasqu. Pilot specialization again.... You do realize at some point they are going to nerf that right? So what every player must now pay 30+30+30= 90 for +3 turn rate? Hmm maybe shave some money off of that a bundle pack or discount. So another words the Bortasqu does not work in klingon fashion, because most people are not going to pay that much money for 3+ turn rate. With a possible 15 second increase to turn rate.

    Another words get the hell off the KDF players back. The fact of the matter is if they wanted to design the Bortasqu like a Klingon ship they would have put the turn rate at 9 to start with and dump the console flight speed buffs. Then again no extra money. So it was in there best interest to design it like a fed ship. In essence your point is mute. I am talking a wall feds will always act like this, unless it is something of theirs. Nothing new.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,282 Arc User
    rmy1081 wrote: »
    @patrickngo
    The T6 Bortasque doesn't have all the weird penalties like terrible inertia, crappy cloak, and bad turn rate, that the T5 Bortasque has. Check out the stats. They're actually really good ships.

    neither does the T5 version anymore - at least in regards to the inertia; just before releasing the flagship pack, they changed the inertia value on the T5 bortasqu's from 18 to 30 - same as the odyssey has

    don't know if they did anything to the cloak and turn rate as well​​
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  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    rmy1081 wrote: »
    @patrickngo
    The T6 Bortasque doesn't have all the weird penalties like terrible inertia, crappy cloak, and bad turn rate, that the T5 Bortasque has. Check out the stats. They're actually really good ships.

    While the T6 Bortasqu' handles better than the T5 version, the improvements are marginal. They are still horrible choices for narrow arc builds with that turn rate, propensity to slide, etc. KDF Battle Cruisers lay claim to excellent handling and are extremely good platforms for narrow arc builds. That's how we made our money with them in PVP, using Vor'Cha, Negh'Var, etc with DHCs with fast moving ships around still. Bortasqu'? No friggin' way, they handle like bricks. The cloak? It's still the same: Standard.

    The Bortasqu's are really Fed Cruisers with Klingon skins. OTOH, if these had been Fed Cruisers, Feds would be in love with them. They are ideal beamboats and the console slots are, IMO, better than the Fed equivalents.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    rmy1081 wrote: »
    @patrickngo
    The T6 Bortasque doesn't have all the weird penalties like terrible inertia, crappy cloak, and bad turn rate, that the T5 Bortasque has. Check out the stats. They're actually really good ships.

    While the T6 Bortasqu' handles better than the T5 version, the improvements are marginal. They are still horrible choices for narrow arc builds with that turn rate, propensity to slide, etc. KDF Battle Cruisers lay claim to excellent handling and are extremely good platforms for narrow arc builds. That's how we made our money with them in PVP, using Vor'Cha, Negh'Var, etc with DHCs with fast moving ships around still. Bortasqu'? No friggin' way, they handle like bricks. The cloak? It's still the same: Standard.

    The Bortasqu's are really Fed Cruisers with Klingon skins. OTOH, if these had been Fed Cruisers, Feds would be in love with them. They are ideal beamboats and the console slots are, IMO, better than the Fed equivalents.
    Well... I DO use mine to FaW spam until everything on the map is dead. :p So yes, it is correct that they are good at FaW spam.
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  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    and how many console slots does that leave for anything, you know...

    useful?

    I'll stand by my statement-the Bort is bad because you have to spend a fortune to make it mediocre.
    I'm not going to debate it with you. You don't like the T5 or the T6 Bortas, and that's fine. You have an image of what a Klingon ship "should" be, and that is also fine. Klingons have gone through a couple of iterations in the shows and movies. They've gone through yet another change here in STO. The Flagships don't need any significant investment to be excellent dual heavy cannon ships.
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    redvenge wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    and how many console slots does that leave for anything, you know...

    useful?

    I'll stand by my statement-the Bort is bad because you have to spend a fortune to make it mediocre.
    I'm not going to debate it with you. You don't like the T5 or the T6 Bortas, and that's fine. You have an image of what a Klingon ship "should" be, and that is also fine. Klingons have gone through a couple of iterations in the shows and movies. They've gone through yet another change here in STO. The Flagships don't need any significant investment to be excellent dual heavy cannon ships.

    Vor'Cha, Negh'Var, D-7/K'T'Inga, Qib are all AMAZING narrow arc battle cruisers without any investment to make them better. Look up their turn rates. That is why they are absolutely great battle cruisers with whatever build style you throw at them: Narrow arc or wide area focus. Even the Lv40 "dil" / free ship token Vor'Cha, Negh'Var, the T5 Fleet Vor'Cha we were face raeping Feds in PVP with while using DHCs. This isn't like PVE where NPCs barely move, this was PVP where Escorts would be zooming fast, Bugships ruled the Escort world, etc. The Klingon Battle Cruisers had traditionally been AMAZING platforms for narrow arc weapons.

    Except for the Bortasqu'. Flying a Bortasqu' in a narrow arc build (i.e. DC/DHC, etc) is an exercise in patience and you have to devote build space to make them go from "Horribly Bad" handling to "Still Pretty D--n Bad" platforms for such a build.
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  • eradicator84eradicator84 Member Posts: 1,116 Arc User
    While I've no complains about the Klingon design, it really should've been a Gorn styled ship imo

    I must admit I assumed the Naj'sov came with a cloak when I bought it. KDF designed ships are supposed to have them. I forgot about DHC compatibility.

    I figured it was just a bug or oversight, the missing cloak. I spent several minutes fruitlessly trying to find it in my list of clicky powers. I gave up disappointed, figured it was just a bug.

    But as someone pointed out, with in game description text missing for cloak and DHC compatibility it seems the KDF ship is the worst of the bunch. Aside from very minor turn rate plus hull and shield HP tweaks, it's just the Nebula in a Klingon skin :(
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  • kodachikunokodachikuno Member Posts: 6,020 Arc User1
    edited November 2016
    I would have preferred a gorn design myself but I'm fine with a klink one, its time they got a native sci ship. Kinda like how my Roms have tossed out the temporal science ship or Krenim science ship in favor of a native science warbird.

    feels good to have my characters back in WARBIRDS... do kinda miss that hangar tho
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    tacofangs wrote: »
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  • shpoksshpoks Member Posts: 6,967 Arc User
    Well... I DO use mine to FaW spam until everything on the map is dead. :p So yes, it is correct that they are good at FaW spam.

    They were awesome at FaW spam even before FaW spam was a thing. :D
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  • ambassadorkael#6946 ambassadorkael Member, Administrator Posts: 2,677 Community Manager
    Hey folks,

    The ship is supposed to have a cloak. We're looking into the bug.
  • shpoksshpoks Member Posts: 6,967 Arc User
    Hey folks,

    The ship is supposed to have a cloak. We're looking into the bug.

    I knew it was a good sign to have a Klingon Community Manager! ;) I just knew it! :)

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  • dalolorndalolorn Member Posts: 3,655 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Hey folks,

    The ship is supposed to have a cloak. We're looking into the bug.

    I am pleased as punch to be wrong.

    I bet. :grin:

    Shame it had to go on for days, though. :neutral:

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  • sorceror01sorceror01 Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User
    I'm still slightly bemused that it took like 4 pages of people bickering with each other about whether this was a bug or not when it clearly was.

    This wouldn't be the first time a ship in Trek left drydock without all of its working parts (though I guess we'll have to wait a bit longer than Tuesday to get our cloaking devices running.)
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  • alcyoneserenealcyoneserene Member Posts: 2,413 Arc User
    Hey folks,

    The ship is supposed to have a cloak. We're looking into the bug.

    Thank you!
    shpoks wrote: »
    Hey folks,

    The ship is supposed to have a cloak. We're looking into the bug.

    I knew it was a good sign to have a Klingon Community Manager! ;) I just knew it! :)

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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    Hey folks,

    The ship is supposed to have a cloak. We're looking into the bug.

    What about the missing Tier 6 Klingon material and the inability to use cannons?

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  • sorceror01sorceror01 Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User
    Hey folks,

    The ship is supposed to have a cloak. We're looking into the bug.

    What about the missing Tier 6 Klingon material and the inability to use cannons?

    While the material glitch sounds legit, the cannon part probably sounds intentional. Even in the stats page for it on the STO front page list a Cloaking Device, but make no mention of the ability to mount dual cannons.
    Being that it is a research vessel, it probably isn't supposed to have access to them. Very few science-heavy ships have access to heavy weaponry to begin with, so this shouldn't come as a surprise.
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  • toivatoiva Member Posts: 3,276 Arc User
    look at it this way... at absolute worst, even if you have to flip sh it over the lack of cloak and/or cannons, you bought a ship that's a slap in the face of Gecko's comments about science and/or klingon not selling

    That's one of the prime reasons for me buying the bundle. I want them to release ships for all factions.
    Hey folks,

    The ship is supposed to have a cloak. We're looking into the bug.

    Lovely, thanks for chiming in. May you help in finding/fixing many more bugs in the future.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    Hey folks,

    The ship is supposed to have a cloak. We're looking into the bug.

    Nice! Thank you for clarifying this for us. :)
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  • jaguarskxjaguarskx Member Posts: 5,945 Arc User
    Hey folks,

    The ship is supposed to have a cloak. We're looking into the bug.

    Great.

    Now what about cannons? It seems most other KDF ship can mount those weapons.
  • aurigas7aurigas7 Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    Hey folks,

    The ship is supposed to have a cloak. We're looking into the bug.

    Thank you !

    And now folks please stop the whining. Accept your challenge as Klingons and show the Feds what can be done with this ship. At least I found my built for the Naj'sov. Disruptor death mixed with... lets just say it's like an Amarr Curse in the good old days. >:)
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  • nikeixnikeix Member Posts: 3,972 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    Hey folks,

    The ship is supposed to have a cloak. We're looking into the bug.

    Good news.

    Now on to the next ermagerd crisis! :)

    ((psst! Don't forget to fix the description at the shipyard too. The blog will fade, the in-game description is always there staring customers in the face.))
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