test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Neglected past, declining present, No Future?

PvP. KDF. this is for the console players out there, a glimpse of what's in store for you...

The core development philosophy of Cryptic studios focuses on the lowest common denominator among the audience, with a bias away from both balance, and the support of more than one faction. The result of this, is the pattern in the title.

Now here's how it works...

each development cycle, the company devotes all energies and resources to the largest then-present demographic of players, as filtered through the business strategy of their Free to Play model. This means in simple terms that any group of players that is NOT characteristic of the lowest common denominator of the largest demographic will have to wait until the next cycle to hope that, by some miraculous event, they're the chosen grouping.

This never happens, because the largest demographic of players will always (100% of the time) gravitate to the faction or mode that recieves actual development time and development effort.

which, in turn, reinforces the previous cycle's decision to focus on that group.

As time progresses, of course, this narrows the demographics and focuses development effort ever tighter, members of the majority last cycle become minorities next cycle, and so on.

Because the business model revolves around selling increasing levels of power, this tends to reinforce that narrowing of focus, since modes that require balance to function and build audiences are left behind, as are factions that are not large enough to be deemed 'worth the effort'. As a result, minority factions will decline in player-base, which in turn reinforces the pattern.

Cryptic Studios has reached the point, on PC, where this cycle is completely irreversible-it would cost more than it did to develop the game to correct it or conduct a rebalance, and at this point, such a rebalance would not attract sufficient paying players (nor even bring back players that have left over this matter) to make up the man-hours and financial costs incurred.

You may have already noticed this trend, if you've just begun playing in the last few months, or you might notice it in six months-but eventually, this situation becomes obvious even to the dullest individuals.

Don't bother trying to demand re-evaluation, because the company is profitable for the moment, and organizational inertia is somewhat more difficult to reverse than physical inertia-the tendency to continue down a previously profitable direction is stronger than the recognition that changes need to be made until such time as crisis point is reached-and at that point, it's usually easier, cheaper and more feasible to simply shut the game down, than to make obviously necessary changes.

we're not at a point where CRYPTIC is capable of recognizing the self-reinforcing pattern they are in, this is due to the game's association to Star Trek, rather than the quality of gameplay provided by the development staff.

PvP had a neglected past-recieving no serious work after game release in 2010, it has a declining present with a population that has been in negative numbers of increase (that is, losing more than it gains) for some three years minimum, and it has no future-because to have a future requires more investment than the business model can possibly afford.

KDF is just a few ticks behind PvP in this same trend, for similar reasons, with the likely same outcome-even to the point that in "The Future" we see the Klingon Empire surrendering it's sovereignty to the Federation wholesale by the 31st century.

advice: don't bother asking for things, if you like non-Federation characters or enjoy PvP-because you won't get it. don't bother asking for balance for the same reason.
«13

Comments

  • This content has been removed.
  • captainwellscaptainwells Member Posts: 718 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    As a console player [Xbox One] I do have a KDF playthrough going (currently lvl 12), but I'm not deep enough in to have noticed anything adverse. I have seemingly noticed something going with both PvP and/or PvE arenas. I've queued up many, many times only to have to drop out when the game never starts. I see things like eight or ten minimum players required with between two-five waiting ... waiting ... waiting ... (oops, there goes one; now four players waiting) ... waiting .... (oops, there goes another; now three players waiting) .... and so on, and so forth. Then I'm the next player to drop out.

    That scenario has happened to me ever since I first added the game when it became available on console. Haven't even gotten a single chance to experience any of the ground stuff and only a couple of the PvE encounters.

    That's not content that hasn't received development. That is content that the company fails to promote or support, but doesn't actually have the spine to remove from the game.
  • xyquarzexyquarze Member Posts: 2,130 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Don't bother trying to demand re-evaluation, because the company is profitable for the moment, and organizational inertia is somewhat more difficult to reverse than physical inertia-the tendency to continue down a previously profitable direction is stronger than the recognition that changes need to be made until such time as crisis point is reached-and at that point, it's usually easier, cheaper and more feasible to simply shut the game down, than to make obviously necessary changes.

    Dare I say "doom"?
    patrickngo wrote: »
    KDF is just a few ticks behind PvP in this same trend, for similar reasons, with the likely same outcome-even to the point that in "The Future" we see the Klingon Empire surrendering it's sovereignty to the Federation wholesale by the 31st century.

    Which, just for the record, is canon.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    we're not at a point where CRYPTIC is capable of recognizing the self-reinforcing pattern they are in, this is due to the game's association to Star Trek, rather than the quality of gameplay provided by the development staff.

    Well, I personally do think that the quality of gameplay has improved, even though some of the power creep issues are cutting on the edges, and it may not be the best game (gameplay wise) out there, but it is pretty decent - again, in my opinion.

    Granted, I came for Star Trek, and I don't do PvP, since while trying it I was just not enjoying the attitude towards a new player in there. But I have no problems caring for my Klinks and Roms and enjoy playing them, too.

    Just to give a counterpoint, since you seem to be treating your personal opinion as a commonly accepted fact, which in my view it isn't.
    My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
  • edited October 2016
    This content has been removed.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    No no, I am sure, there are huge PvP and KDF improvements just right around the corner. Absolutely.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,865 Arc User
    Yes, PVP in STO has no future. You might as well accept that.
  • This content has been removed.
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,115 Arc User
    PvP has been dead (due to Cryptic not caring) on the PC version for YEARS. Cryptic has NEVER done PvP well/balanced in any of it's MMOs to date going all the way back to "City of Heroes" in 2004. As the Console version of STO is just a port of the PC version with respect to all the various powers and game mechanics; I would expect a change or focus on STO PVP -- ever.

    If PvP is an important aspect of a game for you to enjoy it -- trust me, then STO isn't for you. (And not trying to be mean -- just trying to make you understand the Cryptic developer mindset with regards to PvP in general.)
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
    TOS_Connie_Sig_final9550Pop.jpg
    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    As a console player [Xbox One] I do have a KDF playthrough going (currently lvl 12), but I'm not deep enough in to have noticed anything adverse. I have seemingly noticed something going with both PvP and/or PvE arenas. I've queued up many, many times only to have to drop out when the game never starts. I see things like eight or ten minimum players required with between two-five waiting ... waiting ... waiting ... (oops, there goes one; now four players waiting) ... waiting .... (oops, there goes another; now three players waiting) .... and so on, and so forth. Then I'm the next player to drop out.

    That scenario has happened to me ever since I first added the game when it became available on console. Haven't even gotten a single chance to experience any of the ground stuff and only a couple of the PvE encounters.

    That's not content that hasn't received development. That is content that the company fails to promote or support, but doesn't actually have the spine to remove from the game.

    Creat your own private queue for those maps and go play them with 8 or 9 of your closest friends.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Yes, PVP in STO has no future. You might as well accept that.

    kinda what I'm saying, though the use of the question mark IS indicative that I'm open to a well-founded argument to the contrary-but it must be well-founded, with evidence. (after all, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and Occam's razor's statment that the simplest, most straight forward answer is usually the correct one...apply.)

    But there aren't any. Any way I twist and turn and try to come up with ideas on how to "save" PvP, I fail. It all requires a serious investment of resources for an unknown gain. I can't see how Cryptic would do this.
    The only reason to do such an investment would be to gain new players (without losing the existing ones.) But I think they found a much more promising solution for that with the console release. Of course, the could look for another way to grow the game. But could that really be PvP? Is there really a reasonable chance for that?

    Your only hope is that, if you had asked me if there will ever be a TOS faction or a console release for STO, I would have said, something like "No, never" or "Impossible, and it still happened. But such a surprise is not really something you can hope and build on. You either enjoy what the game is offering right now, or you don't. If you don't, stop wasting your time with it. If the surprise ever comes, you can still revisit your choice.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • officerbatman81officerbatman81 Member Posts: 2,761 Arc User
    I clicked on this thread assuming it was going to be about the upcoming US presidential election.
  • discojerdiscojer Member Posts: 533 Arc User
    I have yet to play a MMORPG where PVPers didn't complain about PVP being neglected. There's a reason for it, almost no one likes it. Go play something like World of Warships or a MOBA if you care about PVP. Having it shoehorned into an MMORPG just ruins the MMORPG and delivers an unsatisfying PVP experience.

    And as to the KDF complaining, I don't get it, either. There have been 5 Star Trek TV shows, all of them about the Federation, and what, a dozen movies, also all about the Federation. Star Trek is about the Federation, period.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    Personally, I think non-constructive PvP lamentation posts such as this needs to get added to the F.C.T.
    Yeah really... preaching doom is not a good way to bolster the playerbase.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • ssbn655ssbn655 Member Posts: 1,894 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    PvP. KDF. this is for the console players out there, a glimpse of what's in store for you...

    The core development philosophy of Cryptic studios focuses on the lowest common denominator among the audience, with a bias away from both balance, and the support of more than one faction. The result of this, is the pattern in the title.

    Now here's how it works...

    each development cycle, the company devotes all energies and resources to the largest then-present demographic of players, as filtered through the business strategy of their Free to Play model. This means in simple terms that any group of players that is NOT characteristic of the lowest common denominator of the largest demographic will have to wait until the next cycle to hope that, by some miraculous event, they're the chosen grouping.

    This never happens, because the largest demographic of players will always (100% of the time) gravitate to the faction or mode that recieves actual development time and development effort.

    which, in turn, reinforces the previous cycle's decision to focus on that group.

    As time progresses, of course, this narrows the demographics and focuses development effort ever tighter, members of the majority last cycle become minorities next cycle, and so on.

    Because the business model revolves around selling increasing levels of power, this tends to reinforce that narrowing of focus, since modes that require balance to function and build audiences are left behind, as are factions that are not large enough to be deemed 'worth the effort'. As a result, minority factions will decline in player-base, which in turn reinforces the pattern.

    Cryptic Studios has reached the point, on PC, where this cycle is completely irreversible-it would cost more than it did to develop the game to correct it or conduct a rebalance, and at this point, such a rebalance would not attract sufficient paying players (nor even bring back players that have left over this matter) to make up the man-hours and financial costs incurred.

    You may have already noticed this trend, if you've just begun playing in the last few months, or you might notice it in six months-but eventually, this situation becomes obvious even to the dullest individuals.

    Don't bother trying to demand re-evaluation, because the company is profitable for the moment, and organizational inertia is somewhat more difficult to reverse than physical inertia-the tendency to continue down a previously profitable direction is stronger than the recognition that changes need to be made until such time as crisis point is reached-and at that point, it's usually easier, cheaper and more feasible to simply shut the game down, than to make obviously necessary changes.

    we're not at a point where CRYPTIC is capable of recognizing the self-reinforcing pattern they are in, this is due to the game's association to Star Trek, rather than the quality of gameplay provided by the development staff.

    PvP had a neglected past-recieving no serious work after game release in 2010, it has a declining present with a population that has been in negative numbers of increase (that is, losing more than it gains) for some three years minimum, and it has no future-because to have a future requires more investment than the business model can possibly afford.

    KDF is just a few ticks behind PvP in this same trend, for similar reasons, with the likely same outcome-even to the point that in "The Future" we see the Klingon Empire surrendering it's sovereignty to the Federation wholesale by the 31st century.

    advice: don't bother asking for things, if you like non-Federation characters or enjoy PvP-because you won't get it. don't bother asking for balance for the same reason.

    DOOM Thread in before the hammer falls
  • edited October 2016
    This content has been removed.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    patrickngo wrote: »
    valoreah wrote: »
    Personally, I think non-constructive PvP lamentation posts such as this needs to get added to the F.C.T.
    Yeah really... preaching doom is not a good way to bolster the playerbase.
    Mark, let me ask you something honestly.

    Would YOU, ever, recommend PvP in this game, to anyone you actually wanted to keep as a friend? I mean, assuming you're not a psychopath or something. would you be the sort to tell a friend, "Oh yeah, you should totally roll a Klingon..." specifically to a friend you wanted to keep as a friend?

    I'm willing to bet the answer to both of those, is "NO".

    because In Real Life you are probably not a douchebag.
    Why do you conflate playing KDF with playing PvP?

    That's the thing, I have a Gorn, an Orion, and both a LibBorg Rom, and Reman that are KDF allied. And I almost never PvP. There's plenty of stuff to do red side even if you don't PvP. So I would not recommend PvP, but playing KDF I would.

    I did PvP today, but that was an exception, I was joking in zone chat and someone decided to challenge me... and they lost. Using EBC to drop mines kinda fails when your opponent has a Scimitar setup to spam TBR. NO MINES FOR YOU! Yeah, I had my scimi setup as a pseudo sci ship. :p
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • This content has been removed.
  • panzerbjorne39#1071 panzerbjorne39 Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    It is like a psa what he's doing. These poor console PvP and kdf peeps should know what they're getting themselves into. So it's not just another doom thread. It's important. At least here on the forums it can't be downvoted into obscurity like on Reddit.
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    About the KDF, I don't have a KDF character. My reason being (and this is my personal reason, I am not sure if others share the same reservations) is that building a KDF toon means investing anew on the game. I have to buy new ships, new traits, new DOffs, etc. Now had at least the ship purchases been cross-faction (i.e., buying a fed ship unlocks the equivalent KDF/Romulan ship or vice-versa), I won't be so hesitant to make a KDF toon. But right now as it stands, I am too heavily invested on the Fed-side to ever justify me starting a KDF toon.
  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    It is like a psa what he's doing. These poor console PvP and kdf peeps should know what they're getting themselves into. So it's not just another doom thread. It's important. At least here on the forums it can't be downvoted into obscurity like on Reddit.

    He could have done that with a couple of sentences, he didn't need to write a book.
    <shrug>
    STO Member since February 2009.
    I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
    Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
    upside-down-banana-smiley-emoticon.gif
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Players in MMOs don't invest in factions that have no future.
    And who's going to tell them that?

    See that's what puzzles me. On the one hand you claim to like the KDF, but on the other you act like you want to chase away the few players that are there.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Players in MMOs don't invest in factions that have no future.
    And who's going to tell them that?

    Temporal Agents. That's sort of part of the job description. Phil Cray is on the case!

    :smiley:
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • This content has been removed.
  • This content has been removed.
  • risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,711 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    I think it has been explained often enough that most players are less interested in the KDF faction because they're simply much harder to identify with.

    Star Trek was mostly following a Starfleet crew and its the ideals of the Federation that were at the core of many episodes.

    Perhaps they could add some depth to characters (in fact, I'm sure they were pretty succesful in that when they wrote Kagran especially in Midnight) but in the end the Klingons will always be seen as the primary example of what happens if a species unlocks technology that they're not ready to use yet. (Or, in other words, they'll always be seen as the species that - following Federation standards - should not even be a space travelling species. They're just lagging behind in development and civilisation in the broader sense of the word, judging from the main perspective of the shows: that of the Federation and its prime directive.)

    Yes, the negative vicious circle may be worsening things but that doesn't change anything about the fact that there's a very good reason this vicious circle came into existence in the first place. Klingons are just less interesting to the majority of the players.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,284 Arc User
    and yet, other people manage to develop equally among MULTIPLE factions (not just klingons) in other star trek games

    'not the focus' is NOT an excuse and never will be​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,711 Arc User
    and yet, other people manage to develop equally among MULTIPLE factions (not just klingons) in other star trek games

    'not the focus' is NOT an excuse and never will be​​

    How many Star Trek MMO's are there? Developing something is one thing, maintaining it when only a small faction of the playerbase plays it for reasons that are inherent to the entire franchise is something completely different. The current situation is a logical one.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,284 Arc User
    far more people play rebels than empire; both sides were developed equally for galaxies

    far more people play republic than empire; both sides are developed equally for TOR

    far more people play alliance than horde; both sides are developed equally for WoW

    again, not an excuse, never will be​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • This content has been removed.
  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,708 Arc User
    Yes, PVP in STO has no future. You might as well accept that.

    Not for the PC, but for the console it may still be possible. The community is different and if there is enough PVP on the consoles then perhaps some additions will come for PVP.

    Doesn't fix the horrible attitude which was often displayed by PVP players, but then again consoles are known for that attitude so it should be less of an issue there.
    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
Sign In or Register to comment.