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"Midnight" — Light Brigade?

In the mission "Midnight", as the combined fleet is about to charge the Iconians, there's a reference to The Charge of the Light Brigade (poem):

Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbspRode the six hundred.

The poem itself is a reference to the Charge of the Light Brigade:

The Charge of the Light Brigade was a charge of British light cavalry led by Lord Cardigan against Russian forces during the Battle of Balaclava on 25 October 1854, in the Crimean War.

[. . .]

Although the Light Brigade reached the battery under withering direct fire and scattered some of the gunners, the badly mauled brigade was forced to retreat immediately. Thus, the assault ended with very high British casualties and no decisive gains.

The poem is specifically about the British forces who lost the Battle of Balaclava.

Why did the story writer decide to reference it in this mission?

Additionally, Star Trek made a reference to the Light Brigade before. In DS9: "Sacrifice of Angels", as the Federation charges Cardassian ships in the Dominion fleet, there is this reference:

O'BRIEN: Cannon to the right of them, cannon to the left of them, cannon in front of them, volley'd and thunder'd.
BASHIR: Storm'd at with shot and shell, Boldly they rode and well into the jaws of death. Into the mouth of hell rode the six hundred.

Someone might speculate that it's used as a metaphor to describe the feeling of hopelessness in a battle. It's just odd that they would pick something so specific to the British forces. It's not like Star Trek is about Anglo-Saxon propaganda, right?

Memory Alpha: Starfleet

Meyer also wrote about these ideological differences in his autobiographical book The View from the Bridge - Memories of Star Trek and a Life in Hollywood. Therein, he recalled, "[Roddenberry] was emphatic that Starfleet was not a military organization but something akin to the Coast Guard. This struck me as manifestly absurd, for what were Kirk's adventures but a species of gunboat diplomacy wherein the Federation (read America, read the Anglo-Saxons) was always right and aliens were – in Kipling's queasy phrase – 'lesser breeds'? Yes, there was lip service to minority participation, but it was clear who was driving the boat."

Just saying. :)
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Comments

  • cjay1379cjay1379 Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    Well in DS9 Bashir is from the UK so not that surprising that he'd know and be able to quote this poem. O'Brian is Irish so not that far a hop that he'd know the poem too (especially with his military background). Also Charge of the light brigade is about heroism under fire when facing against a overwhelming enemy. While the events are about a British brigade it doesn't mean that only us Brits can relate to it.
    Incidentally if memory serves me correctly the charge was a mistake and they were supposed to be chasing down routed enemy guns but a TRIBBLE up in the chain of command sent them into a charge they know they couldn't win.
  • ichaerus1ichaerus1 Member Posts: 986 Arc User
    I speculate that it's a lesson in the results of poor decision making, and blatant wasting of lives. Something that Captain Kagran repeatedly did during the Iconian War arc.

    Midnight also added more ammunition to showcase how much of a ***** leader Captain Kagran was.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    reyan01 wrote: »
    ichaerus1 wrote: »
    I speculate that it's a lesson in the results of poor decision making, and blatant wasting of lives. Something that Captain Kagran repeatedly did during the Iconian War arc.

    Midnight also added more ammunition to showcase how much of a ***** leader Captain Kagran was.

    I don't know. In hindsight, whilst some of Kagran's choices were questionable, I'm not sure what could have been done differently.

    Fact is, it was the attack on the Herald sphere that really weakened the Alliance - but it is important to remember that we attacked the Herald Sphere because NO-ONE wanted to resort to genocide. Everyone wanted to see if conventional means would work, even as a last resort, before considering using a genocidal weapon-ship..
    And the genocidal ship wasn't ready and it coudn't be guaranteed it would be ready in time (or ever), either. The Alliance needed to take actions why they still had the capability to do so - after another few weeks or months of fighting, the fleet would not look in any better state, and the Iconians likely would still be strong.

    And you can only fight with the troops you have, not the one you'd wish to have. There was no solar detonation device lying around conveniently, for example.

    Notable perhaps: The Tholians had such a device to use against the Lukari homestar, and one might wonder if they developed it originally for use in the Iconian War. Unfortunately, the device was pretty slow-acting - slow enough that the sun's abberant behavior was detected and investigated. Long enough even that the LUkari themselves managed to come up with a probe they hoped could reignite their sun. It didn't work, but consider how much time they would need to analyze the phenomen and figure out a potential counter. Probably not so useful in the Herald Sphere, with a species that has been deemed responsible for their own solar detonation technology... And a technology to transport entire star systems...
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,284 Arc User
    and one might wonder if they developed it originally for use in the Iconian War.

    no; it was designed SPECIFICALLY for use on the lukari star to lure kal dano and the tox uthat to a point in time where they could capture it​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,284 Arc User
    which is exactly what i just said​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 6,102 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    In the mission "Midnight", as the combined fleet is about to charge the Iconians, there's a reference to The Charge of the Light Brigade (poem):

    Theirs not to make reply,
    Theirs not to reason why,
    Theirs but to do and die:
    Into the valley of Death
    &nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbspRode the six hundred.

    The poem itself is a reference to the Charge of the Light Brigade:

    The Charge of the Light Brigade was a charge of British light cavalry led by Lord Cardigan against Russian forces during the Battle of Balaclava on 25 October 1854, in the Crimean War.

    [. . .]

    Although the Light Brigade reached the battery under withering direct fire and scattered some of the gunners, the badly mauled brigade was forced to retreat immediately. Thus, the assault ended with very high British casualties and no decisive gains.

    The poem is specifically about the British forces who lost the Battle of Balaclava.

    Why did the story writer decide to reference it in this mission?

    Additionally, Star Trek made a reference to the Light Brigade before. In DS9: "Sacrifice of Angels", as the Federation charges Cardassian ships in the Dominion fleet, there is this reference:

    O'BRIEN: Cannon to the right of them, cannon to the left of them, cannon in front of them, volley'd and thunder'd.
    BASHIR: Storm'd at with shot and shell, Boldly they rode and well into the jaws of death. Into the mouth of hell rode the six hundred.

    Someone might speculate that it's used as a metaphor to describe the feeling of hopelessness in a battle. It's just odd that they would pick something so specific to the British forces. It's not like Star Trek is about Anglo-Saxon propaganda, right?

    Memory Alpha: Starfleet

    Meyer also wrote about these ideological differences in his autobiographical book The View from the Bridge - Memories of Star Trek and a Life in Hollywood. Therein, he recalled, "[Roddenberry] was emphatic that Starfleet was not a military organization but something akin to the Coast Guard. This struck me as manifestly absurd, for what were Kirk's adventures but a species of gunboat diplomacy wherein the Federation (read America, read the Anglo-Saxons) was always right and aliens were – in Kipling's queasy phrase – 'lesser breeds'? Yes, there was lip service to minority participation, but it was clear who was driving the boat."

    Just saying. :)

    It's a suitable reference, yes it may be a hopeless situation but a soldier must do as he is ordered too.
    There is recent evidence that suggests the charge may not have been such a big disaster in the way the russian guns were sited, they could not all fire at the moving targets at the same time.
    Take reload time into account, (they're muzzle loaders) and most of your British losses were not from the artillery, but the muskets and sabres of the Russian infantry and cav.

    OP, military history is a hobby of mine. Even though I'm British, I study military engagements neutrally to get both sides of the story. Trek chose that particular line because it's a potentially hopeless situation on both instances
    Post edited by theraven2378 on
    NMXb2ph.png
      "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
      -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
    • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,284 Arc User
      i said nothing of the sort; pay more attention - they used a trilithium device on lukari's primary, NOT the tox uthat because they didn't HAVE it at that point​​
      Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

      #LegalizeAwoo

      A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
      An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
      A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
      A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


      "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
      "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
      Passion and Serenity are one.
      I gain power by understanding both.
      In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
      I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
      The Force is united within me.
    • dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
      reyan01 wrote: »
      and one might wonder if they developed it originally for use in the Iconian War.

      no; it was designed SPECIFICALLY for use on the lukari star to lure kal dano and the tox uthat to a point in time where they could capture it​​

      Not entirely true. It was created BY Kal Dano. The Tholians stole it.

      Tholians didn't Tox Uthat Lukari. Tholians did something else to Lukari so that Kal would come back and present the Uthat for swiping so they could go shut off Na'Kuhl.

      Why the Alliance didn't just sneak a "backstabbing" Romulan in, cloak and all, to "turn back on" Na'Kuhl is beyond me, but that's a thought for another post... :tongue:
      Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...

      To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
    • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
      and one might wonder if they developed it originally for use in the Iconian War.

      no; it was designed SPECIFICALLY for use on the lukari star to lure kal dano and the tox uthat to a point in time where they could capture it​​
      Actually, I don't think we know that it was designed specifically only for this one purpose. In the mission it is speculated that it might have been developed only for that explicit purpose.

      The Tholians aren't explaining themselves, after all.
      Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
    • goodscotchgoodscotch Member Posts: 1,680 Arc User

      Just saying. :)

      Read your OP multiple times. Exactly what is it that you're "just saying?" That the Star Trek franchise shouldn't use anything that has any connection to Anglo Saxon history? That Roddenberry's premise about Starfleet being akin to the Coast Guard was inaccurate?

      Here's what I got out of the OP: A poem based on a failed military endeavor was referred to in an STO mission and a ST:DS9 episode and shouldn't have been because it casts a light that Starfleet has Anglo Saxon leanings which are inherently racist.

      Am I reading into this correctly?
      klingon-bridge.jpg




    • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 6,102 Arc User
      epic battle though
      NMXb2ph.png
        "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
        -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
      • kjfettkjfett Member Posts: 370 Arc User
        edited October 2016
        Once again, @oliviaclaire tries to stir up drama. Ironically, many missed your point so your attempt to bait them failed.

        The dev's use of "Charge of the Light Brigade" is not Anglo-Saxon propaganda and is simply use of an example that most societies understand, be they Anglo-Saxon or not. It is a perfect example of how the Tamarian language worked.

        Temba, his arms wide.



        kjfett_14091.jpg
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      • gavinrunebladegavinruneblade Member Posts: 3,894 Arc User
        Nanov, his nose twitching.
      • misterlozmisterloz Member Posts: 133 Arc User
        OP, his tinfoil gleaming
      • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
        mind control beams, converging.
        -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
        My character Tsin'xing
        Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
      • This content has been removed.
      • redeyedravenredeyedraven Member Posts: 1,297 Arc User
        Temba, his arms wide
      • neoakiraiineoakiraii Member Posts: 7,468 Arc User
        Dukat, Cardassia great again
        GwaoHAD.png
      • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
        The Founders, worshipped by Cardassians
        -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
        My character Tsin'xing
        Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
      • psycoticvulcanpsycoticvulcan Member Posts: 4,160 Arc User
        I kinda wish the battle in Midnight took place inside Earth's atmosphere, maybe even over San Francisco Bay. We already got an ESD destruction scene in "Surface Tension".
        NJ9oXSO.png
        "Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
        -Thomas Marrone
      • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 6,102 Arc User
        I kinda wish the battle in Midnight took place inside Earth's atmosphere, maybe even over San Francisco Bay. We already got an ESD destruction scene in "Surface Tension".

        That would have been epic in something like the the Defiant or the Intrepid.
        NMXb2ph.png
          "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
          -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
        • kjfettkjfett Member Posts: 370 Arc User
          I kinda wish the battle in Midnight took place inside Earth's atmosphere, maybe even over San Francisco Bay. We already got an ESD destruction scene in "Surface Tension".

          The Orient Express in Cleveland.
          kjfett_14091.jpg
        • lighte007lighte007 Member Posts: 390 Arc User
          It would be nicer to fight over Paris, France and see the Eiffel Tower. =P
          The Rising of the Delta is the best expansion ever, and people love it to death because it is a good day to die in the endless struggle for supremacy of your own conviction. (A spin off of the Delta Rising is the best expansion ever and all the players love it.)
        • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
          Someone might speculate that it's used as a metaphor to describe the feeling of hopelessness in a battle. It's just odd that they would pick something so specific to the British forces. It's not like Star Trek is about Anglo-Saxon propaganda, right?

          Memory Alpha: Starfleet

          Meyer also wrote about these ideological differences in his autobiographical book The View from the Bridge - Memories of Star Trek and a Life in Hollywood. Therein, he recalled, "[Roddenberry] was emphatic that Starfleet was not a military organization but something akin to the Coast Guard. This struck me as manifestly absurd, for what were Kirk's adventures but a species of gunboat diplomacy wherein the Federation (read America, read the Anglo-Saxons) was always right and aliens were – in Kipling's queasy phrase – 'lesser breeds'? Yes, there was lip service to minority participation, but it was clear who was driving the boat."

          Just saying. :)

          Both Bashir and O'Brien are British of some description and both are big on military history. They're also not American and 50% of them are not white.
          22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
          Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
          JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

          #TASforSTO


          '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
          'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
          'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
          '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
          'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
          '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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        • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
          Temba, his arms wide
          reyan01 and the Nova.
          Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
        • This content has been removed.
        • fovrelfovrel Member Posts: 1,448 Arc User
          edited October 2016
          Can anybody tell me what the OP is up to? Star Trek is not about Anglo Saxon propaganda. What is that suppose to mean?

          The light Brigade was a British brigade. It was there because British involvement in the Crimean war. It was a British military action. Foolish but at the same time heroic and mostly because it is immortalized by a poem of Tennyson. A British poet. Yeah British, because it is not likely a Chinese artist is going memorize something like that in a poem. Most likely he takes something from his own history, because, most likely, he is more attached to it. It is called cultural heritage.

          Anyway, we have a lot of Anglo Saxon stuff going on. And what about it? I think just as Tennyson got inspiration from what we can call his cultural and historical heritage. So have the authors of Star Trek and the developpers of STO. They have the same native language, English.

          Some further thoughts. Can someone give an example of a heroic military action also immortalized in a work of art. A replacement of the Charge of the Light Brigade and belonging to another cultural heritage?

          Many times characters in Star Trek refer to literature or history, but is always from our own time. I mean there is some time between 2000 and 2410. Does anything happen in those centuries, something that belongs to the cultural heritage of the people living in the 25d century?
        • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,573 Arc User
          Perhaps the statues and paintings from Ancient Greece and the passages from Herodotus related to the stand of King Leonidas and the 300 Spartans (700 Thespians and 400 Thebans) at Thermopolye?
          'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
          Judge Dan Haywood
          'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
          l don't know.
          l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
          That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
          Lt. Philip J. Minns
        • goodscotchgoodscotch Member Posts: 1,680 Arc User
          Thread should be recognized for what it is...intentional pot stirring. The conclusions drawn are at best far-fetched and at worst wholly inaccurate. OP has been called out half a dozen times in the thread and has failed to resurface...pot has been sufficiently stirred. Thread should be closed.
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