test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

and now, a preach on the graces of Diminishing Returns!!

Okay, sticking it out there to be punched now...

Engineering consoles and Science consoles for years now, have had what we call "Diminishing Returns" applied to them. This is a math formula where the listed bonus is reduced by 20% for each additional console of that type you're carrying.

Say, Neutronium Hull armor, for example, loses about 1/5th of each extra console of Neutronium Hull Armor you're carrying. This was done by the Devs to prevent 'ultratanks' from making NPC fire more of a joke than it already is.

The only console types that have NOT had Diminishing returns applied, are Tactical consoles.

So...let's talk about how that might impact the game, if by some weird freakazoid chance, the developers decided that Tactical slots needed to work the same way...

we'll begin with a basic 'hypothetical' using a standard purple MkXII console that gives +30% to your energy weapons...and work from there.

x=30%

Now, we'll assume y1, y2, y3,y4, and y5 are your tactical console slots.


y1=x
y2=(x-20%)
y3=(y2-20%)
y4=(y3-20%)
y5=(y4-20%)

and so on.

n=the sum of y1+y2+y3+y4+y5


Rounding of fractions will be to the nearest tenth for the sake of not driving me crazy, but a computer can handle the repeat digits.

Our two examples:

Sovereign class Cruiser (3 tactical Consoles)
Generic Event Ship with 4 tactical consoles and otherwise cruiser stats and seating.

n1=y1+y2+y3

n2=y1+y2+y3+y4

Let's insert some numbers, first, we'll assume Hilbertized builds here-that is, all-energy builds with similar/same consoles across the board.

First, as it is presently:

n1=90
n2=120

Now, with Diminishing Returns:


y1=30
y2=24
y3=19.2

N1=69.2

now for the n2 or four-console ship with diminishing returns:

y1=30
y2=24
y3=19.2
y4=15.4 (15.36 rounded to the nearest tenth)

n2=84.6

as you can no doubt see, a very significant reduction for both 3 and 4 console ships.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, why?

because Diminishing Returns can be interrupted-by, say, slipping alternative consoles into those spaces. For example, a "Manifold" console that boosts BEAMS, but doesn't boost a specific energy type, inserted into the y4 position, doesn't have a diminishing return associated with it. if it gives a full 20 or 30, this can make the n number much higher. the main impact is to make the 'floor' and 'ceiling' closer together.

aka a casual using drop gear can be much closer to 'average' build-spec, and the dps Elite much closer to average-which in turn makes the 'average' model used in Advanced and Elite queues far more accurate, and AFK penalties for not-being-40-hour-pro-grinder much less common and closer to their designed intent.

(IOW pulling the percentages in to reflect a more 'average' or levelled out playing field. Pro-DPS players will still be able to wring eyebleeding performance out of it, but that eyebleeding performance will be more in line with what we saw in 2013, than we do in 2016.)

secondly was the "challenge realignment" attempted by Cryptic in 2014-where we saw the use of Dreadnought hitpoints on Borg Probes.

This was because DPS has gotten SO high that much content is over in seconds-in CCA, for example, the Entity blown up before the first shockwave is fairly common, in ISA it's now possible for a team to do as the Wizards of STO demonstrated, killing the gate before the probes have even launched.

Comments

  • chrishellmax2363chrishellmax2363 Member Posts: 132 Arc User
    Good maths , but they not going to do anything about it for now.
    Whether you think you are right or wrong, either way you are RIGHT.
  • This content has been removed.
  • This content has been removed.
  • tom61stotom61sto Member Posts: 3,711 Arc User
    Issue is that 'elite' builds might not even use Tac consoles and still output insane DPS. Someone posted a video of a Science T6 Scimitar doing ~240k DPS using dual/dual heavy cannons, and had the Tac consoles filled with Universals.

    This proposed nerf wouldn't really do that much to anyone running Spire Locator Tac consoles, as the % damage boost isn't nearly as important as the critical chance, to the point that you can put out very nice numbers with the entirely wrong [buff] loaded in. Without coming out with drop Tac consoles that give critical hit and/or damage, a fleet-less/newbie build isn't going to compete in that regard, weird early Season stacking reversion or no.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    For the umpteenth time, resistance must have diminishing returns because otherwise it would be possible to hit 100% resistance and make yourself permanently invincible.
  • This content has been removed.
  • officerbatman81officerbatman81 Member Posts: 2,761 Arc User
    TL; DR; mathematics
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    patrickngo wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    For the umpteenth time, resistance must have diminishing returns because otherwise it would be possible to hit 100% resistance and make yourself permanently invincible.

    I'm not disagreeing, Warpangel, I'm saying that offense needs to be balanced against defense as much as defense is alleged to be balanced against offense. needs both, see?

    and we need to have somewhere to start. Tactical consoles are an obvious first step, since Tac is so dominant as a career.

    But they are balanced. Because resistance is multiplied but damage boost is added, that means a 30% damage boost is in fact negated by only 23% resistance. 30% of resistance can negate 43% damage boost. 50% can negate 100%. And so on.

    EDIT: More specifically, 5 type-specific mk12 VR resistance consoles will give you a point score of 200 for a resistance of 61.2%, which can negate a 157.7% damage boost, more than the 150% you could get from 5 equal quality type-specific tac consoles.
  • dabelgravedabelgrave Member Posts: 979 Arc User
    The only consoles that get any diminishing returns are the ones improving damage resistance. Everything else (science, tactical, and other engineering consoles) stacks normal. And keep in mind, tactical consoles are category 1 so they aren't always the best option anyway.​​
  • This content has been removed.
  • orondisorondis Member Posts: 1,447 Arc User
    It'd hardly make a difference. All damage in this game is insane. The Crystalline Entity isn't even dying to weapons, it's dying to Exotic Particle Generator related skills.
    Previously Alendiak
    Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
    Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
  • byozuma#0956 byozuma Member Posts: 502 Arc User
    orondis wrote: »
    It'd hardly make a difference. All damage in this game is insane. The Crystalline Entity isn't even dying to weapons, it's dying to Exotic Particle Generator related skills.
    Which tends to backfire spectacularly as everyone dies to the feedback wave generated by the constant damage from the Gravity Wells and Tyken Rifts.
    oldracesbanner.jpg
  • This content has been removed.
  • nephitisnephitis Member Posts: 456 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Okay, sticking it out there to be punched now...

    Engineering consoles and Science consoles for years now, have had what we call "Diminishing Returns" applied to them. This is a math formula where the listed bonus is reduced by 20% for each additional console of that type you're carrying.

    Say, Neutronium Hull armor, for example, loses about 1/5th of each extra console of Neutronium Hull Armor you're carrying. This was done by the Devs to prevent 'ultratanks' from making NPC fire more of a joke than it already is.

    The only console types that have NOT had Diminishing returns applied, are Tactical consoles.
    A solution to that is to have the various armor platings not offer armor rating but rather % damage resistance.

  • This content has been removed.
  • freightstopperfreightstopper Member Posts: 232 Arc User
    orondis wrote: »
    It'd hardly make a difference. All damage in this game is insane. The Crystalline Entity isn't even dying to weapons, it's dying to Exotic Particle Generator related skills.
    Which tends to backfire spectacularly as everyone dies to the feedback wave generated by the constant damage from the Gravity Wells and Tyken Rifts.

    Er... when did that get changed then?

    I was under the impression that the shockwaves were only boosted by energy weapon damage, isn't that why your Boffs tell when it's in the absorption phase?
    Isn't that why Exotic damage and torpedo builds work so well against it?
Sign In or Register to comment.