Company A says "this is an expansion" to tell customers what's being offered. Company B says "this is an expansion" to tell customers what's being offered. Then company B says "this is an expansion" but offers something that's noticeably different from what customers come to expect. I'm asking Cryptic if they feel that AoY compares to other "expansions." And your response is "well, it doesn't have to! It's different! It can be different!" That's not even meaningful.
Expansion is not a strictly defined term. It might be a surprise to some customer that an expansion from Company B comes with 4 new classes and 12 new episodes and costs 40 $, while Company B provides 6 new missions and a new mini-faction and it costs nothing. But it doens't mean the word "expansion" is inappropriately used.
Startrek Online uses the terminology of seasons and expansions for something that other companies might all call season or all call expansion or they might call it "game update" or whatever. But that is okay because there is no strict definition of what these term have to mean.
And for example, whether you consider the AOY faction worthy the name of a faction is probably quite irrelevant for Cryptic, because from their technical and organizational perspective, it definitely is one. The AOY faction gets a place at the character select/creation screen, which is what factions do. It has unique customization options, its owns selection of starting races, its own tutorial. Even if there was not a single mission other than the tutorial for AOY, that would already qualify technically as new faction for them, and they have never put factions into season updates or regular patches.
"Expansions can be different sizes" and "prices can be whatever they want" are totally irrelevant to the question, which is whether AoY compares favorably to other expansions. How happy would you be with, say, an "expansion" for, say, $30 that consisted of nothing more than a popup window saying "thanks for playing"? What if it were free? Would you still be saying that such an expansion is comparable to others, because its cost of $0 gives it literally infinite value?.
But you're not asking if AOY compares favorably to other expansions. You ask would it be worth 40 $. That's not the same question.
And AOY is definitely not a popup saying thanks for playing. If Cryptic made that and called it an expansion, I would be disappointed, but it's easy to make up silly examples like that, they doesn't actually make any point.
I would say AOY probably was recieved a lot better than Delta Rising, because Delta Rising had a lot of stuff pepole didn't like and took Cryptic a year or so to compensate for.
The only flaw people associate with AOY seems to be that it's too short. That's a pretty high praise for expansions, IMO, because it means: "Give us more of this, it's awesome." I think people had quite different complaints regarding DR.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I failed to see the logic in anything he tried to point out in this whole thread.
The comparison was akin to comparing apples and oranges. Great for fruit salad, but not for what they were trying to compare.
Any game that charges for any kind of content is not FTP. FTP means you're able to play ALL content without paying for it, just pay for what shinies you want or a subscription to get extra shinies for free. So that game where they charged for the new expansion ceased to be FTP as soon as that happened.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
Any game that charges for any kind of content is not FTP. FTP means you're able to play ALL content without paying for it, just pay for what shinies you want or a subscription to get extra shinies for free.
While I suppose that's one way of defining it, I doubt that's a model any company wanting to continue to the support the livelihoods of paid employees uses when thinking about their product or the industry in general. Partly because you're definition of content seems a bit idiosyncratic. To me the Gold-plated Nagus is content. There is an experience to be had there, and no player who doesn't commit thousands if not tens of thousands to the game is going to have that experience. No amount of in-game activity is going to check that box. So to me the way you're describing free-to-play, Star Trek Online isn't now and likely never has been "free-to-play".
If you define free-to-play more along the lines of "Offering a sustained good experience without a cover charge" then yeah, STO's very free-to-play .
I was talking to some of the pod-casters at the STO Meet-&-Greet last week before the Devs showed up and made the observation the entire brouhaha surround the issuing of the Naguses (Nagusii?) could have been avoided by adding -one word- to the press release: "Issued to our extravagantly loyal fans." Done. Simple. Anyone who didn't get it would quickly have it explained to them. One word. 'Cuz, you know, communication. I got some chuckles and more than a few nodding heads.
That's a fair point. Everyone has their own way of defining things.
And that was funny, and true. And if they'd have just been more open by adding that one word it would have been better. It wouldn't have stopped the brou-ha-ha that exploded over it, but it would have been more honest.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
This is a weird topic. If Cryptic were to sell this product for $40, they would have created it differently and it would contain different elements. So I don't really know how to answer the original question. As a free "expansion" Agents of Yesterday doesn't add a ton of new content to the game, but it adds some and for that price it's fine.
As a paid for piece, I feel the expansion would have been really different. So I don't know if I'd have paid for it.
Would I pay $40 for what AoY currently is? No. But that's a loaded question as the "expansion" was designed knowing full well it was free content.
FYI op, there is a FLAG button at the bottom right of each post. That is the proper way to request moderation. But be careful what you wish for, they will probably read the entire thread.
What nikeix did was show his credentials before explaining how language works.
((shrug)) The people I work with are too talented and too skilled as critical thinkers for me trotting out the Argument from Authority to have proven a useful tool to me very often in the past. (Though, there are some days I wish I didn't have to defend or justify every (@&^ing decision down to the last detail. I usually work a couple layers deep in the relationship between mechanic and emergent gameplay so explaining it all step by step can be exhausting.)
Usually when I roll out the credentials on the internet where everything is suspect, its a conversational flag "I'm about to launch into an argument a little deeper than the high school freshman level - please put on your thinking caps and pay attention. This may be a bit nuanced." The argument will still stand on its own just fine. Just read carefully please. It's not meant as a bludgeon, its a courtesy.
I already explained what was likely underlying their decisions in regards to AoY. The OP read it, appeared to understand it, and choose not to give it sufficient credence to recognize their question had been answered from a fairly Dev-Like perspective. Probably my bad for not being persuasive enough. Later I tried to use a little levity to point out that one of the premises their arguments were being based on was self-evidently flawed. Not to mock them, but to give them the space to go back and formulate a better argument and do it while still able to save face. Because I'd be happy to continue this discussion in regards to a better structured and more informed argument. Watch the clip I posted - if its a topic that matters to you, it's genius in cartoon form.
They got snippy, walked into a trap, and ended up getting fed their own face with a light but refreshing horseradish sauce.
If the OP wants the thread closed, all good. If' they'd like to conduct an intelligent conversation on the topic, even better. I'd still be happy to discuss MMO company monetization practices in the context of the larger industry, mirroring exactly the same degree of civility being extended to me.
I think it's hilarious he thinks he'll actually get an answer to his question from someone at Cyrptic...
smh
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
FYI op, there is a FLAG button at the bottom right of each post. That is the proper way to request moderation. But be careful what you wish for, they will probably read the entire thread.
Yes, I'm having to report pretty much everything coldnapalm says, along with several other trolling, unconstructive, or derailing posts.
No, I would like the people who have nothing nice or constructive to say to leave. Did you notice how some posters were able to be courteous and constructive? Some of them had opinions that matched mine, while others managed to disagree with me and bring up good points that I hadn't thought of, which I acknowledged with good grace.
I'd still be happy to discuss MMO company monetization practices in the context of the larger industry, mirroring exactly the same degree of civility being extended to me.
If you wanted me to match your level of courtesy, I would have to be less civil to you. While you haven't been the worst in this thread as far as trolling and derailment, you've been unconstructive and patronizing, and I don't appreciate it. You and the others are making this place incredibly unpleasant.
If you wanted me to match your level of courtesy, I would have to be less civil to you. While you haven't been the worst in this thread as far as trolling and derailment, you've been unconstructive and patronizing, and I don't appreciate it. You and the others are making this place incredibly unpleasant.
You can say it, but next to no one here will agree. You may have let your agitation at others boil over into your dealings with me and may not even recognize it yourself, but I think you'll find a cold re-read makes you look downright snotty. I mentioned my work experience while AGREEING with you.
In any event, did you want to talk forum-jutsu or MMO monetization? Did you take the time to view the clip? That had to have sparked some new inquires for you.
I believe this thread has ran its' course for now. Too many hot-heads clashing in an unfriendly manner.
/Closed
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
Comments
Startrek Online uses the terminology of seasons and expansions for something that other companies might all call season or all call expansion or they might call it "game update" or whatever. But that is okay because there is no strict definition of what these term have to mean.
And for example, whether you consider the AOY faction worthy the name of a faction is probably quite irrelevant for Cryptic, because from their technical and organizational perspective, it definitely is one. The AOY faction gets a place at the character select/creation screen, which is what factions do. It has unique customization options, its owns selection of starting races, its own tutorial. Even if there was not a single mission other than the tutorial for AOY, that would already qualify technically as new faction for them, and they have never put factions into season updates or regular patches.
But you're not asking if AOY compares favorably to other expansions. You ask would it be worth 40 $. That's not the same question.
And AOY is definitely not a popup saying thanks for playing. If Cryptic made that and called it an expansion, I would be disappointed, but it's easy to make up silly examples like that, they doesn't actually make any point.
I would say AOY probably was recieved a lot better than Delta Rising, because Delta Rising had a lot of stuff pepole didn't like and took Cryptic a year or so to compensate for.
The only flaw people associate with AOY seems to be that it's too short. That's a pretty high praise for expansions, IMO, because it means: "Give us more of this, it's awesome." I think people had quite different complaints regarding DR.
The comparison was akin to comparing apples and oranges. Great for fruit salad, but not for what they were trying to compare.
Any game that charges for any kind of content is not FTP. FTP means you're able to play ALL content without paying for it, just pay for what shinies you want or a subscription to get extra shinies for free. So that game where they charged for the new expansion ceased to be FTP as soon as that happened.
While I suppose that's one way of defining it, I doubt that's a model any company wanting to continue to the support the livelihoods of paid employees uses when thinking about their product or the industry in general. Partly because you're definition of content seems a bit idiosyncratic. To me the Gold-plated Nagus is content. There is an experience to be had there, and no player who doesn't commit thousands if not tens of thousands to the game is going to have that experience. No amount of in-game activity is going to check that box. So to me the way you're describing free-to-play, Star Trek Online isn't now and likely never has been "free-to-play".
If you define free-to-play more along the lines of "Offering a sustained good experience without a cover charge" then yeah, STO's very free-to-play
I was talking to some of the pod-casters at the STO Meet-&-Greet last week before the Devs showed up and made the observation the entire brouhaha surround the issuing of the Naguses (Nagusii?) could have been avoided by adding -one word- to the press release: "Issued to our extravagantly loyal fans." Done. Simple. Anyone who didn't get it would quickly have it explained to them. One word. 'Cuz, you know, communication. I got some chuckles and more than a few nodding heads.
And that was funny, and true. And if they'd have just been more open by adding that one word it would have been better. It wouldn't have stopped the brou-ha-ha that exploded over it, but it would have been more honest.
As a paid for piece, I feel the expansion would have been really different. So I don't know if I'd have paid for it.
Would I pay $40 for what AoY currently is? No. But that's a loaded question as the "expansion" was designed knowing full well it was free content.
@jodarkrider
Could we get some moderation here? I'm really tired of seeing this thread spammed with trolling, derailing, and downright flaming.
((shrug)) The people I work with are too talented and too skilled as critical thinkers for me trotting out the Argument from Authority to have proven a useful tool to me very often in the past. (Though, there are some days I wish I didn't have to defend or justify every (@&^ing decision down to the last detail. I usually work a couple layers deep in the relationship between mechanic and emergent gameplay so explaining it all step by step can be exhausting.)
Usually when I roll out the credentials on the internet where everything is suspect, its a conversational flag "I'm about to launch into an argument a little deeper than the high school freshman level - please put on your thinking caps and pay attention. This may be a bit nuanced." The argument will still stand on its own just fine. Just read carefully please. It's not meant as a bludgeon, its a courtesy.
I already explained what was likely underlying their decisions in regards to AoY. The OP read it, appeared to understand it, and choose not to give it sufficient credence to recognize their question had been answered from a fairly Dev-Like perspective. Probably my bad for not being persuasive enough. Later I tried to use a little levity to point out that one of the premises their arguments were being based on was self-evidently flawed. Not to mock them, but to give them the space to go back and formulate a better argument and do it while still able to save face. Because I'd be happy to continue this discussion in regards to a better structured and more informed argument. Watch the clip I posted - if its a topic that matters to you, it's genius in cartoon form.
They got snippy, walked into a trap, and ended up getting fed their own face with a light but refreshing horseradish sauce.
If the OP wants the thread closed, all good. If' they'd like to conduct an intelligent conversation on the topic, even better. I'd still be happy to discuss MMO company monetization practices in the context of the larger industry, mirroring exactly the same degree of civility being extended to me.
smh
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Yes, I'm having to report pretty much everything coldnapalm says, along with several other trolling, unconstructive, or derailing posts.
No, I would like the people who have nothing nice or constructive to say to leave. Did you notice how some posters were able to be courteous and constructive? Some of them had opinions that matched mine, while others managed to disagree with me and bring up good points that I hadn't thought of, which I acknowledged with good grace.
That is what some people in this thread have managed to do.
If you wanted me to match your level of courtesy, I would have to be less civil to you. While you haven't been the worst in this thread as far as trolling and derailment, you've been unconstructive and patronizing, and I don't appreciate it. You and the others are making this place incredibly unpleasant.
You can say it, but next to no one here will agree. You may have let your agitation at others boil over into your dealings with me and may not even recognize it yourself, but I think you'll find a cold re-read makes you look downright snotty. I mentioned my work experience while AGREEING with you.
In any event, did you want to talk forum-jutsu or MMO monetization? Did you take the time to view the clip? That had to have sparked some new inquires for you.
/Closed
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
"bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
"Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9]
"Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy
Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider