Sad but true considering that their performance has, as per usual, been lethargic and uninspired, and the team are overly reliant on one or two good players. I can't see them getting very much further.
To be honest, I have higher hopes for Wales.
All my favorites save Iceland are already out unfortunately, I'd have loved to see either NI or ROI get a bit further. Though Wales is interesting as well, it's their very first time I think. Sweden failed due to overly relying on Ibramihovic alone and, well, not scoring a single time. But I'm still thrilled for Iceland. One might wonder why I'm not rooting for Germany, well... they're going to win anyway, so let's just have fun while we still can
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
In other depressing news the new Star Trek show could very well be unwatchable. The people working on it are thrilled to be on streaming because they say it gives them complete freedom without restrictive ratings to do anything they want... well Star Trek has always been a show every member of the family could enjoy and if they wreck that I will strangle every last one of them in their sleep. It would also fail miserably and get the franchise canned for decades just like Stargate was by that godawful Universe.
As someone who's dream trek show would be a game of thrones style show set entirely in the mirror universe with a mature rating, I have no problem with this.
If I wrote the pilot for said show, I would get a really big name to play the captain, build him up as a really important character, and right before the closing credits the first officer would vaporize him.
Sean Bean isn't doing anything right now, is he?
Probably not but you'd have to kill him off in the first couple of episodes
Well, I did say that if I wrote it he would get vaporized at the end of the pilot
"[...]It is ironic that the United Kingdom's people, blindly following some twats with hair for hats, have at last done more damage to themselves, their prestige, their economy and their relations with a peacefull Europe than 2 world wars ever could.
Now that Britain has shot itself i nthe foot we should casually look how this came to be.
The EU skeptics gained real traction (in fact many grousp like that gained traction all over europe) when the Refugee crisis came tio a head with German Chancellor Merkel's call for a consolidated european effort to deal with this crisis. Suddnely doors slammed shut, borders were secured and Masks were ripped of the Faces of European Countrys.
Instead of a managed, solidary effort all europes newest members as much as some of the oldest had to say was: no refugees!
The UK's leaver campaign used this crisis to stir up fear and make gains, coming as far as having Cameron agree to a referendum. Cameron obviously never assumed that the vote could ever go against the EU, with the UK being so dependant on said union of states.
Just think about it:
The UK had a sweet deal going with the EU, all the benefits, less off the hassle. Extrawurst braten, is the german term.
Example?
Tourism is easy in the EU: go where you want. But when Britain leaves the EU... no more easy travel. Suddenly its bothersome. You need Passports and customs checks.
Health insurance covers all of the EU Member States, so no extra travel arrangement have to be made... but leave the eu and sudedenly Tourists will have to deal with all sorts of **** you wont wanna shovel just to go to bloody england...
Britain has nothing to fall back to. Its agressively wrecking its own wealth, because the british people were to dumb to read up on all this leaver shiite.
So, after like a hundred years, Germany wins. By being saints.
>Well played. [/...]
UK did the right thing.
I don't remember voting to join the EU so a German chancellor can turn my country into a migrant transit station and relocation camp, while Western Europe uses me as a source of cheap labour and a dumping ground for their overpiced goods.
Yes, plenty of us in Central and Eastern Europe have buyer's remorse over EU. We voted for European economic club, not for EUSSR led by a Luxembourg clerk.
EU worked for some of you in the Western Europe, but obviously not for all. And it works for the very few of us in Central and Eastern Europe.
EU will reform or it will dissolve, simple as that. And German "victory" will be celebrated over EU ruins if things continue as they are.
I wasn't aware that compassion for people in deed is not an East-European thing. I refuse to believe that.
Fact is that all the countries part of the EU cannot pretend to be surprised where it went, because their governments are involved at every step. If you're not happy where it went, then you might want to take your own national governments to task.
Of course, politicals always pretend "Uh, oh, we couldn't do anything about it, the Evil EU has made all the rules that TRIBBLE you, poor citizen. But we're helpless about it". They aren't. They made the hcoices they made because they thought it would be the best possible result - and I guess one of the best possible things there is that they can deny accountability if things don't go quite to the satisfaction of their potential voters.
The EU stated as a purely economical club when it was called European Economic Community, but by the time it was called EU, it was long more than that. I doubt that any east european government wasn't aware of that when it joined.
And it's also a bit ignorant to assume that you can actually have the economic community without the other aspects of the EU. Most of the EU laws are still about facilitating this inner-european economical system. Free travel, no inner-European borders and harmonized regulations are a prerequisite for that.
That isn't to say that there isn't plenty to improve. How rules are arrived is still too intransparent for anyone not directly involved. But that's how the national governments wanted it, it seems. The governments we elected. Maybe there will be change along these lines now with the UK Brexit. Or mabe not.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Few people really understand how the EU works, but EU elections also have the most abysmal voter turnout ever. It's a case of people complaining about something they neither understand nor care about, they simply know "it's bad". It's also sad that human rights and compassion for the suffering are something "despicable" today with people comitting arson just so no refugees could find shelter. There's no rhyme or reason to hate.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
"[...]It is ironic that the United Kingdom's people, blindly following some twats with hair for hats, have at last done more damage to themselves, their prestige, their economy and their relations with a peacefull Europe than 2 world wars ever could.
Now that Britain has shot itself i nthe foot we should casually look how this came to be.
The EU skeptics gained real traction (in fact many grousp like that gained traction all over europe) when the Refugee crisis came tio a head with German Chancellor Merkel's call for a consolidated european effort to deal with this crisis. Suddnely doors slammed shut, borders were secured and Masks were ripped of the Faces of European Countrys.
Instead of a managed, solidary effort all europes newest members as much as some of the oldest had to say was: no refugees!
The UK's leaver campaign used this crisis to stir up fear and make gains, coming as far as having Cameron agree to a referendum. Cameron obviously never assumed that the vote could ever go against the EU, with the UK being so dependant on said union of states.
Just think about it:
The UK had a sweet deal going with the EU, all the benefits, less off the hassle. Extrawurst braten, is the german term.
Example?
Tourism is easy in the EU: go where you want. But when Britain leaves the EU... no more easy travel. Suddenly its bothersome. You need Passports and customs checks.
Health insurance covers all of the EU Member States, so no extra travel arrangement have to be made... but leave the eu and sudedenly Tourists will have to deal with all sorts of **** you wont wanna shovel just to go to bloody england...
Britain has nothing to fall back to. Its agressively wrecking its own wealth, because the british people were to dumb to read up on all this leaver shiite.
So, after like a hundred years, Germany wins. By being saints.
>Well played. [/...]
UK did the right thing.
I don't remember voting to join the EU so a German chancellor can turn my country into a migrant transit station and relocation camp, while Western Europe uses me as a source of cheap labour and a dumping ground for their overpiced goods.
Yes, plenty of us in Central and Eastern Europe have buyer's remorse over EU. We voted for European economic club, not for EUSSR led by a Luxembourg clerk.
EU worked for some of you in the Western Europe, but obviously not for all. And it works for the very few of us in Central and Eastern Europe.
EU will reform or it will dissolve, simple as that. And German "victory" will be celebrated over EU ruins if things continue as they are.
I wasn't aware that compassion for people in deed is not an East-European thing. I refuse to believe that.
Fact is that all the countries part of the EU cannot pretend to be surprised where it went, because their governments are involved at every step. If you're not happy where it went, then you might want to take your own national governments to task.
Of course, politicals always pretend "Uh, oh, we couldn't do anything about it, the Evil EU has made all the rules that **** you, poor citizen. But we're helpless about it". They aren't. They made the hcoices they made because they thought it would be the best possible result - and I guess one of the best possible things there is that they can deny accountability if things don't go quite to the satisfaction of their potential voters.
The EU stated as a purely economical club when it was called European Economic Community, but by the time it was called EU, it was long more than that. I doubt that any east european government wasn't aware of that when it joined.
And it's also a bit ignorant to assume that you can actually have the economic community without the other aspects of the EU. Most of the EU laws are still about facilitating this inner-european economical system. Free travel, no inner-European borders and harmonized regulations are a prerequisite for that.
That isn't to say that there isn't plenty to improve. How rules are arrived is still too intransparent for anyone not directly involved. But that's how the national governments wanted it, it seems. The governments we elected. Maybe there will be change along these lines now with the UK Brexit. Or mabe not.
I wasn't aware I am obliged to be "compassionate" to satisfy your feel-good. We have higher unemployment and lower income than Western Europe, so by all means feel free to pay for your humanitarian ventures, we have other priorities.
Be compassionate with your own time, space, and money. Not with ours.
The fact is that we didn't sign up for EU super state or for German chancellor's orders.
I'm also not particularly interested in your standard browbeating that you do on this forums 24/7, in this case related to EU.
Few people really understand how the EU works, but EU elections also have the most abysmal voter turnout ever. It's a case of people complaining about something they neither understand nor care about, they simply know "it's bad". It's also sad that human rights and compassion for the suffering are something "despicable" today with people comitting arson just so no refugees could find shelter. There's no rhyme or reason to hate.
And how many refugees are you actually caring for, pay for and support? One? Ten? Fifty? None most likely, but you have no problems burdening somebody else without asking if they want to participate.
How about a screening process instead of simply swinging the doors open for every vaguely Middle-Eastern looking person appearing in Europe?
And how many refugees are you actually caring for, pay for and support? One? Ten? Fifty? None most likely, but you have no problems burdening somebody else withotu asking if they want to participate.
Walk the talk.
I have literally no idea what you are trying to say, but you made your point. I suggest to stop this topic now as political discussions most likely only end in a thread lock - I'm surprised the whole thread is still open.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
As I pointed out before a united government isn't a bad idea it's all about the execution and the EU'S execution is undemocratic and unfair to the larger and more successful countries who are forced to support the poorly run countries and pay for their mistakes.
They should reform and follow the United States model, each state mostly self sufficient with the rights and areas of power between state and federal governments clearly defined (albeit not clearly defined enough these days). I mean it's worked well for ~200 years and they can make adjustments as neccesary to strike an acceptable balance.
I believe that 52 is more than 48, and the referendum was for a majority, was it not? I am sure if the leavers were the 48, the remainers wouldnt be saying what you are.
Also "people who voted for it are changing thier minds, or werent serious about it", what the heck? Votes have consequences , if you voted, you voted, its not preschool, no backsies', or "that wasnt my real vote, this ones for real". The funny thing about real-life is there are real-cosequences to ones actions, maybe if more people were held to that reality, the world would be closer to the "Utopianistic" vision some see in Star Trek.
Lemme rephrase. The results were stupidly close, and the fact that nearly half don't want it doesn't matter. All that matters is majority rules, regardless of how small that majority is. In some cases it would be appropriate. In this case I think it should have required at least 60% or so. But I'm not a policy maker. Nor am I British. Though I do speak English, just not the Queen's.
Votes have consequences - I agree. Maybe in the future those who voted to leave without taking it seriously or doing their research will be more careful with their votes. That's an issue that I have with voters in general with every election. Do they actually know what they are voting for? I do my research. What about the next two people in line behind me who could override my vote with catchphrases instead of facts?
My whole point behind my comment before was that I expect to see much more debate over it seeing as a.) it's clearly a divisive issue (in another forum someone posted a rant on how the leave crowd has just made their life much more difficult with their vote) and b.) the UK legislature could always decide on an alternative to leaving.
It is not uncommon for really big changes to require a 2/3 majority in democratic decision making processes. This was clearly missed.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I believe that 52 is more than 48, and the referendum was for a majority, was it not? I am sure if the leavers were the 48, the remainers wouldnt be saying what you are.
Also "people who voted for it are changing thier minds, or werent serious about it", what the heck? Votes have consequences , if you voted, you voted, its not preschool, no backsies', or "that wasnt my real vote, this ones for real". The funny thing about real-life is there are real-cosequences to ones actions, maybe if more people were held to that reality, the world would be closer to the "Utopianistic" vision some see in Star Trek.
Lemme rephrase. The results were stupidly close, and the fact that nearly half don't want it doesn't matter. All that matters is majority rules, regardless of how small that majority is. In some cases it would be appropriate. In this case I think it should have required at least 60% or so. But I'm not a policy maker. Nor am I British. Though I do speak English, just not the Queen's.
Votes have consequences - I agree. Maybe in the future those who voted to leave without taking it seriously or doing their research will be more careful with their votes. That's an issue that I have with voters in general with every election. Do they actually know what they are voting for? I do my research. What about the next two people in line behind me who could override my vote with catchphrases instead of facts?
My whole point behind my comment before was that I expect to see much more debate over it seeing as a.) it's clearly a divisive issue (in another forum someone posted a rant on how the leave crowd has just made their life much more difficult with their vote) and b.) the UK legislature could always decide on an alternative to leaving.
It is not uncommon for really big changes to require a 2/3 majority in democratic decision making processes. This was clearly missed.
But it is common for a government to publish conditions prior to a referendum, which they did. If Cameron had planed a referendum that needed a 2/3 majority he would not have been reelected for another term. And he knew that very well. He risked a lot for political gains and lost it all.
On issues like this a majority is a majority, a 2/3 majority requirement would've been seen as oppressive and rightly so. You'd almost never get a majority that high on a hotly contested issue like this. The majority won and that's how democracy works, these people need to stop being TRIBBLE-holes and poor losers and deal with it.
It's an advisory referendum. It isn't legally binding. This was always the case no matter who won and was clearly spelled out in the parliamentary vote on the matter last year.
The current government accepts the will of the people, however David Cameron has resigned and someone else in the Conservative party will undoubtedly try to take it forward come October or possibly late September.
It is unlikely due to the Fixed Term Parliaments Act that a General Election will be called, David Cameron has announced that he will step down, but no one new has been elected least of all Nigel Farage, the man who claimed victory and was seen as the face of the leave campaign who has to all intents and purposes put himself out of a job.
Interestingly, one of his many quotes of the campaign was that if the result had been 52-48 remain, he would have sought a second referendum himself so it seems a tad bit hypocritical of him and other Leave campaigners to say "that's not how democracy works"
In order to leave the EU, the UK has to repeal a number of laws, not least the European Communities Act which a number of members of the House of Commons have, today, vowed to oppose based on their own views or those of their constituents which is their right and responsibility as elected representatives. It also has to go through the House of Lords and ostensibly the Queen. Strangely, elected representatives often disagree with the population at large on certain issues, as do the HoL.
Constitutionally, whilst "the people have spoken" it is still for their elected representatives to decide what happens next. David Cameron won't pull the trigger, and it would be unwise for Johnson or Gove or whomever replaces him to do so without having formulated a plan, one which they admitted they did not have because they did not expect to win.
When you have are looking to persuade the House on a course of action, particularly one of monumental importance, it's a good idea to have a robust plan that can be scrutinized and debated in great detail as oddly, that's how government works.
In the mean time, we are still part of the EU and bound by all of it's rules and regulations and will be until the government of the day trigger Article 50 and at least two years have passed. Until that happens, 52-48 means absolutely nothing.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
maybe because, despite a few patches of heat from CERTAIN posters...it has yet to devolve into a flaming cesspool from hell, so whoever moved it decided to leave it be for now
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
maybe because, despite a few patches of heat from CERTAIN posters...it has yet to devolve into a flaming cesspool from hell, so whoever moved it decided to leave it be for now
Well I did try to keep it slightly civil. But my point was that it seems to be a direct violation of the TOS whether it is civil or not.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Oh, I just assumed. I've been reading this thread on my mobile so I couldn't see who made any of the posts.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Agreed - shame it's so predictable really. The surprise is, for me, that some of the 'bigger' teams have done so poorly though. Spain and Italy for example, have pretty much embarrased themselves so far, Portugal haven't been too bad but they're certainly not setting the world alight.
As for Wales, yeah - their first tournament for something like 54 years. They're delighted to even be there, and it shows.
Ìsland!
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
It's an advisory referendum. It isn't legally binding. This was always the case no matter who won and was clearly spelled out in the parliamentary vote on the matter last year.
The current government accepts the will of the people, however David Cameron has resigned and someone else in the Conservative party will undoubtedly try to take it forward come October or possibly late September.
It is unlikely due to the Fixed Term Parliaments Act that a General Election will be called, David Cameron has announced that he will step down, but no one new has been elected least of all Nigel Farage, the man who claimed victory and was seen as the face of the leave campaign who has to all intents and purposes put himself out of a job.
Interestingly, one of his many quotes of the campaign was that if the result had been 52-48 remain, he would have sought a second referendum himself so it seems a tad bit hypocritical of him and other Leave campaigners to say "that's not how democracy works"
In order to leave the EU, the UK has to repeal a number of laws, not least the European Communities Act which a number of members of the House of Commons have, today, vowed to oppose based on their own views or those of their constituents which is their right and responsibility as elected representatives. It also has to go through the House of Lords and ostensibly the Queen. Strangely, elected representatives often disagree with the population at large on certain issues, as do the HoL.
Constitutionally, whilst "the people have spoken" it is still for their elected representatives to decide what happens next. David Cameron won't pull the trigger, and it would be unwise for Johnson or Gove or whomever replaces him to do so without having formulated a plan, one which they admitted they did not have because they did not expect to win.
When you have are looking to persuade the House on a course of action, particularly one of monumental importance, it's a good idea to have a robust plan that can be scrutinized and debated in great detail as oddly, that's how government works.
In the mean time, we are still part of the EU and bound by all of it's rules and regulations and will be until the government of the day trigger Article 50 and at least two years have passed. Until that happens, 52-48 means absolutely nothing.
I voted remain but I also respect the results. Some people were dumb enough to vote but I also expect them to do what is best now for the country.
The leave camp had no plan and did not expect to win. There plan was to be in the single market without free movement, not having the EU laws that come with, no payment to the EU and being deluded about it. The EU will never allow it.
They already said they would not control/stop immigration from the EU as well which was one of the few key things for voters as well as the money that could be spent on the NHS (I did miss out the ability to control our own laws as well).
They also spoke of opening trade deals with others like india but the question is how long would it take to get those trade deals and I would assume it would have to be after we agreed the EU exit which would be two years.
Cameron never wanted to be the one to leave and also knew of the TRIBBLE storm that would hit the UK and which is why he left it to someone else since clearly they never had a proper plan for brexit.
If the leave camp can't come up with a good viable plan for the UK outside the EU then Parliament should discard it. Its not worth risking so many years of uncertainty and messing with peoples lives and jobs on a wim and most certainly on no plan.
If they come up with a solid plan that is achievable then they should push for article 50 get the negotiations out the way and then start our own trade deals.
We need a plan that won't wreck the country and the economy futher and won't put many jobs at risk. We need a sensible approach to this and that is what the people would expect and not to let the country sink based on the ambition of someone who just wanted to be PM.
People and the markets need certainty and need to know what is going on sooner rather then later so they can then make their future investment plans. Having the government do nothing and then waiting till September / October is not going to help. This should never be happening.
maybe because, despite a few patches of heat from CERTAIN posters...it has yet to devolve into a flaming cesspool from hell, so whoever moved it decided to leave it be for now
I don't know for sure, but I'm hearing that a lot of people are unhappy with threads about politics. What I'm proposing is that we report all political threads, just until we figure out what's going on, cause no one has a clue. And no one reports threads better than me, believe me. And when I'm elected supreme ruler of the universe, I'm going to build a wall between these forums and politics, and I'll make the politicians pay for it.
I voted remain but I also respect the results. Some people were dumb enough to vote but I also expect them to do what is best now for the country.
The leave camp had no plan and did not expect to win. There plan was to be in the single market without free movement, not having the EU laws that come with, no payment to the EU and being deluded about it. The EU will never allow it.
They already said they would not control/stop immigration from the EU as well which was one of the few key things for voters as well as the money that could be spent on the NHS (I did miss out the ability to control our own laws as well).
They also spoke of opening trade deals with others like india but the question is how long would it take to get those trade deals and I would assume it would have to be after we agreed the EU exit which would be two years.
Cameron never wanted to be the one to leave and also knew of the **** storm that would hit the UK and which is why he left it to someone else since clearly they never had a proper plan for brexit.
If the leave camp can't come up with a good viable plan for the UK outside the EU then Parliament should discard it. Its not worth risking so many years of uncertainty and messing with peoples lives and jobs on a wim and most certainly on no plan.
If they come up with a solid plan that is achievable then they should push for article 50 get the negotiations out the way and then start our own trade deals.
We need a plan that won't wreck the country and the economy futher and won't put many jobs at risk. We need a sensible approach to this and that is what the people would expect and not to let the country sink based on the ambition of someone who just wanted to be PM.
People and the markets need certainty and need to know what is going on sooner rather then later so they can then make their future investment plans. Having the government do nothing and then waiting till September / October is not going to help. This should never be happening.
This is why I expect that the new committee that Cameron announced yesterday will effectively kick it into the long grass until either the leave camp can come up with a sensible plan that isn't just pie in the sky or the public forgets about it and moves on. There's a phrase in politics "death by committee" and I think that's effectively what this is. Given the margin and the unelected nature of the new Prime Minister, it's a poisoned chalice. Whomever does make the call to invoke Article 50 will be taking the UK into uncharted waters, with the possibility of no return. That's a huge gamble that may or may not pay off.
Trading with the Commonwealth is a great idea, except that places like Australia, Canada, New Zealand and India to name but a few are an extremely long way away especially by ship. Unlike the rest of Europe which is on our doorstep, both of which will have their costs, though now the costs for Europe will be higher.
It kinda reminds me of those relatives everyone has who will drive hundreds of miles to save a few pence on the price of bread rather than pay that little bit extra by buying from the corner shop.
The economy, currency and employment have all been threatened and in that sense the damage has been done, but it's not irreparable but I agree, we do need a sensible plan that isn't going to kick off the troubles in Northern Ireland again, embitter Scotland to go independent and weaken the economy of the country further. If there is a totally viable plan that can stand up to scrutiny, then great. But whimsical ideas and fancy notions, like the whole £350mil a week thing which turned out to be a lie, should really be dismissed by any sane person in authority.
The general public rightly demand a lot of things from their elected officials, but unfortunately not everything can be delivered on no matter how high the majority is or how big the mandate is.
I voted leave on basis that Britain has had a proud cultural history
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I think the Mods have let this thread stand because it's such a HOT Topic now, that it's better to have it all directed into this one thread, rather than having new ones pop up on a regular basis over the next few weeks.
(which could become a Moderators nightmare to edit)
My own personal opinion is that common sense will eventually settle in and some kind of compromise will be worked out, where the UK will remain a de facto member of the EU, as that particular body institutes new rules and regulations to appease the growing dissent within its ranks.
Then at some point in the future, another public referendum will be held to see if "the Common People" of the UK still want to break away.
At that point, it will truly be either the end or a new beginning.
What they have now is neither, their economy is in limbo, and their big business' are already making their way for the dory to mainland Europe...
Which is not good for anybody on either side of the discussion.
<shrug>
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Just a quick point for a few people. We do not elect Prime Ministers. We elect MPs. The party with the most sitting MPs forms the government. That party reserves the right to appoint their own leader in whatever manner they see fit (business lobbying, public vote, trade unions opinions, trial by combat).
We are not Americans, our head of state is a different person to our head of government, but both are unelected. We had this when Brown took over and now Cameron has stepped down. Because people confuse the powers of the HoS and HoG. A Prime Minister is not special, they are an extension of Government as a whole, they have little to no special powers. For instance, the power to form their cabinet is a power they have as Party Leader, not as PM, the Leader of the Opposition has that power as well. A government can technically continue with no leader unless a vote of no confidence is called.
In this case however, a general election should be called ASAP, not least because (despite not being a minority government) more people voted for other parties combined than the current one that got in, but also because it is a government split down the middle due to this monumental bolloxing up of our future.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
@artan42 Yay, that sounds like breaking free from foreign tyranny and taking the country back. Not being able to elect the leader, I mean
But seriously, I think this is the same way the EU comissioners get isntated. The people elect their national party for the European Parliament. In the Parliament there are European parties formed from the national ones (a conservative, a green and so on). And then the parliament, the majority of seats determined by national elections, instates the comissioners in a parliament wide vote. So british policy and EU policy has more in common it seems.
But leaders are rarely directly elected. In Germany they get nominated by their parties and the people vote for the party, the chancellor candidate however "pulls the weight" of course because people need a face to stay interested.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Comments
All my favorites save Iceland are already out unfortunately, I'd have loved to see either NI or ROI get a bit further. Though Wales is interesting as well, it's their very first time I think. Sweden failed due to overly relying on Ibramihovic alone and, well, not scoring a single time. But I'm still thrilled for Iceland. One might wonder why I'm not rooting for Germany, well... they're going to win anyway, so let's just have fun while we still can
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Well, I did say that if I wrote it he would get vaporized at the end of the pilot
I wasn't aware that compassion for people in deed is not an East-European thing. I refuse to believe that.
Fact is that all the countries part of the EU cannot pretend to be surprised where it went, because their governments are involved at every step. If you're not happy where it went, then you might want to take your own national governments to task.
Of course, politicals always pretend "Uh, oh, we couldn't do anything about it, the Evil EU has made all the rules that TRIBBLE you, poor citizen. But we're helpless about it". They aren't. They made the hcoices they made because they thought it would be the best possible result - and I guess one of the best possible things there is that they can deny accountability if things don't go quite to the satisfaction of their potential voters.
The EU stated as a purely economical club when it was called European Economic Community, but by the time it was called EU, it was long more than that. I doubt that any east european government wasn't aware of that when it joined.
And it's also a bit ignorant to assume that you can actually have the economic community without the other aspects of the EU. Most of the EU laws are still about facilitating this inner-european economical system. Free travel, no inner-European borders and harmonized regulations are a prerequisite for that.
That isn't to say that there isn't plenty to improve. How rules are arrived is still too intransparent for anyone not directly involved. But that's how the national governments wanted it, it seems. The governments we elected. Maybe there will be change along these lines now with the UK Brexit. Or mabe not.
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I wasn't aware I am obliged to be "compassionate" to satisfy your feel-good. We have higher unemployment and lower income than Western Europe, so by all means feel free to pay for your humanitarian ventures, we have other priorities.
Be compassionate with your own time, space, and money. Not with ours.
The fact is that we didn't sign up for EU super state or for German chancellor's orders.
I'm also not particularly interested in your standard browbeating that you do on this forums 24/7, in this case related to EU.
And how many refugees are you actually caring for, pay for and support? One? Ten? Fifty? None most likely, but you have no problems burdening somebody else without asking if they want to participate.
How about a screening process instead of simply swinging the doors open for every vaguely Middle-Eastern looking person appearing in Europe?
Walk the talk.
I have literally no idea what you are trying to say, but you made your point. I suggest to stop this topic now as political discussions most likely only end in a thread lock - I'm surprised the whole thread is still open.
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Its not a "i only take what i like" club.
And its so funny that the very star trekish idea that is the EU is being derided and shat upon.. in a star trek related forum.
Some of you really prove that there is no hope for mankind.
They should reform and follow the United States model, each state mostly self sufficient with the rights and areas of power between state and federal governments clearly defined (albeit not clearly defined enough these days). I mean it's worked well for ~200 years and they can make adjustments as neccesary to strike an acceptable balance.
But it is common for a government to publish conditions prior to a referendum, which they did. If Cameron had planed a referendum that needed a 2/3 majority he would not have been reelected for another term. And he knew that very well. He risked a lot for political gains and lost it all.
The current government accepts the will of the people, however David Cameron has resigned and someone else in the Conservative party will undoubtedly try to take it forward come October or possibly late September.
It is unlikely due to the Fixed Term Parliaments Act that a General Election will be called, David Cameron has announced that he will step down, but no one new has been elected least of all Nigel Farage, the man who claimed victory and was seen as the face of the leave campaign who has to all intents and purposes put himself out of a job.
Interestingly, one of his many quotes of the campaign was that if the result had been 52-48 remain, he would have sought a second referendum himself so it seems a tad bit hypocritical of him and other Leave campaigners to say "that's not how democracy works"
In order to leave the EU, the UK has to repeal a number of laws, not least the European Communities Act which a number of members of the House of Commons have, today, vowed to oppose based on their own views or those of their constituents which is their right and responsibility as elected representatives. It also has to go through the House of Lords and ostensibly the Queen. Strangely, elected representatives often disagree with the population at large on certain issues, as do the HoL.
Constitutionally, whilst "the people have spoken" it is still for their elected representatives to decide what happens next. David Cameron won't pull the trigger, and it would be unwise for Johnson or Gove or whomever replaces him to do so without having formulated a plan, one which they admitted they did not have because they did not expect to win.
When you have are looking to persuade the House on a course of action, particularly one of monumental importance, it's a good idea to have a robust plan that can be scrutinized and debated in great detail as oddly, that's how government works.
In the mean time, we are still part of the EU and bound by all of it's rules and regulations and will be until the government of the day trigger Article 50 and at least two years have passed. Until that happens, 52-48 means absolutely nothing.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Well I did try to keep it slightly civil. But my point was that it seems to be a direct violation of the TOS whether it is civil or not.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Oh, I just assumed. I've been reading this thread on my mobile so I couldn't see who made any of the posts.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Ìsland!
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Oh what the hell. I was supporting Wales anyway
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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I voted remain but I also respect the results. Some people were dumb enough to vote but I also expect them to do what is best now for the country.
The leave camp had no plan and did not expect to win. There plan was to be in the single market without free movement, not having the EU laws that come with, no payment to the EU and being deluded about it. The EU will never allow it.
They already said they would not control/stop immigration from the EU as well which was one of the few key things for voters as well as the money that could be spent on the NHS (I did miss out the ability to control our own laws as well).
They also spoke of opening trade deals with others like india but the question is how long would it take to get those trade deals and I would assume it would have to be after we agreed the EU exit which would be two years.
Cameron never wanted to be the one to leave and also knew of the TRIBBLE storm that would hit the UK and which is why he left it to someone else since clearly they never had a proper plan for brexit.
If the leave camp can't come up with a good viable plan for the UK outside the EU then Parliament should discard it. Its not worth risking so many years of uncertainty and messing with peoples lives and jobs on a wim and most certainly on no plan.
If they come up with a solid plan that is achievable then they should push for article 50 get the negotiations out the way and then start our own trade deals.
We need a plan that won't wreck the country and the economy futher and won't put many jobs at risk. We need a sensible approach to this and that is what the people would expect and not to let the country sink based on the ambition of someone who just wanted to be PM.
People and the markets need certainty and need to know what is going on sooner rather then later so they can then make their future investment plans. Having the government do nothing and then waiting till September / October is not going to help. This should never be happening.
I don't know for sure, but I'm hearing that a lot of people are unhappy with threads about politics. What I'm proposing is that we report all political threads, just until we figure out what's going on, cause no one has a clue. And no one reports threads better than me, believe me. And when I'm elected supreme ruler of the universe, I'm going to build a wall between these forums and politics, and I'll make the politicians pay for it.
This is why I expect that the new committee that Cameron announced yesterday will effectively kick it into the long grass until either the leave camp can come up with a sensible plan that isn't just pie in the sky or the public forgets about it and moves on. There's a phrase in politics "death by committee" and I think that's effectively what this is. Given the margin and the unelected nature of the new Prime Minister, it's a poisoned chalice. Whomever does make the call to invoke Article 50 will be taking the UK into uncharted waters, with the possibility of no return. That's a huge gamble that may or may not pay off.
Trading with the Commonwealth is a great idea, except that places like Australia, Canada, New Zealand and India to name but a few are an extremely long way away especially by ship. Unlike the rest of Europe which is on our doorstep, both of which will have their costs, though now the costs for Europe will be higher.
It kinda reminds me of those relatives everyone has who will drive hundreds of miles to save a few pence on the price of bread rather than pay that little bit extra by buying from the corner shop.
The economy, currency and employment have all been threatened and in that sense the damage has been done, but it's not irreparable but I agree, we do need a sensible plan that isn't going to kick off the troubles in Northern Ireland again, embitter Scotland to go independent and weaken the economy of the country further. If there is a totally viable plan that can stand up to scrutiny, then great. But whimsical ideas and fancy notions, like the whole £350mil a week thing which turned out to be a lie, should really be dismissed by any sane person in authority.
The general public rightly demand a lot of things from their elected officials, but unfortunately not everything can be delivered on no matter how high the majority is or how big the mandate is.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
(which could become a Moderators nightmare to edit)
My own personal opinion is that common sense will eventually settle in and some kind of compromise will be worked out, where the UK will remain a de facto member of the EU, as that particular body institutes new rules and regulations to appease the growing dissent within its ranks.
Then at some point in the future, another public referendum will be held to see if "the Common People" of the UK still want to break away.
At that point, it will truly be either the end or a new beginning.
What they have now is neither, their economy is in limbo, and their big business' are already making their way for the dory to mainland Europe...
Which is not good for anybody on either side of the discussion.
<shrug>
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
We are not Americans, our head of state is a different person to our head of government, but both are unelected. We had this when Brown took over and now Cameron has stepped down. Because people confuse the powers of the HoS and HoG. A Prime Minister is not special, they are an extension of Government as a whole, they have little to no special powers. For instance, the power to form their cabinet is a power they have as Party Leader, not as PM, the Leader of the Opposition has that power as well. A government can technically continue with no leader unless a vote of no confidence is called.
In this case however, a general election should be called ASAP, not least because (despite not being a minority government) more people voted for other parties combined than the current one that got in, but also because it is a government split down the middle due to this monumental bolloxing up of our future.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
But seriously, I think this is the same way the EU comissioners get isntated. The people elect their national party for the European Parliament. In the Parliament there are European parties formed from the national ones (a conservative, a green and so on). And then the parliament, the majority of seats determined by national elections, instates the comissioners in a parliament wide vote. So british policy and EU policy has more in common it seems.
But leaders are rarely directly elected. In Germany they get nominated by their parties and the people vote for the party, the chancellor candidate however "pulls the weight" of course because people need a face to stay interested.
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