The latest news on the Axanar lawsuit...

lazarus51166

It looks like they doubled down on the stupid for this one:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/paramount-claims-crowdfunded-star-trek-874985?utm_source=twitter

thegrandnagus1

azrael605 wrote: »

So... who is it your claiming is being stupid now? Sure isn't CBS/Paramount. Those Axanar dumba--es are so screwed.

Yep. And Alec Peters completely destroyed the good will I had for the project with his Dbag responses to anyone who even slightly questions their financials or the validity of the lawsuit.

daveyny

Heh..
Better not post in Klingon on the forums anymore.

thegrandnagus1

daveyny wrote: »

Heh..
Better not speak Klingon in the forums anymore.

Correction: better not speak Klingon...and fundraise 100k using someone else's IP without their persmission, then pay yourself with some of that money, and then use some of it to build a sound stage that you plan to rent out for profit. But as long as you don't do any of that other stuff, you should be fine speaking Klingon.

daveyny

thegrandnagus1 wrote: »

daveyny wrote: »

Heh..
Better not speak Klingon in the forums anymore.

Correction: better not speak Klingon...and fundraise 100k using someone else's IP without their persmission, then pay yourself with some of that money, and then use some of it to build a sound stage that you plan to rent out for profit. But as long as you don't do any of that other stuff, you should be fine speaking Klingon.

I don't know, seems iffy to me...

"... Over the years, there have arisen other copyright concerns pertaining to the Klingon language without any firm evidence that Paramount indeed would ever claim rights to stop others from speaking it.

Until now."

LoL

thegrandnagus1

For anyone new to this subject, allow me to summarize:

1) Axanar raised $1,000,000 by using the Trek IP without permission.

2) The Axanar team then paid themselves a salary with some of that money.

3) The Axanar team then used some of that money to build a sound stage that they stated they planned to rent for profit.

---

For most fan productions, number 1 isn't usually an issue as long as as all of the money is being invested in the project, and no PROFIT is being made. Although, admittedly, most fan productions don't raise anywhere near that much money, and the more money raised the bigger the red flag. That said, numbers 2 and 3 are where the real problem starts, so here goes...

No, it is NOT wrong for a non profit organization to have paid employees. Organizations like the Red Cross are examples of non profits with paid employees.

However(and this is the key point), if you don't actually work for the Red Cross, you can't print off their logos, then go down to the mall and raise money, then keep some of that money to pay yourself. You cannot profit yourself using the Red Cross brand without their express permission. Likewise, you cannot profit yourself using the Trek brand without the IP owner's express permission, which Axanar did not have.

The same logic described above also applies to the sound stage. They cannot use funds raised by using the Trek IP without permission, then use those funds to build something that will make them a profit.

So, the part where they absolutely screwed themselves was where they decided to start profiting. Now, here is their defense: the project was taking all of our time, and we needed money to live on. This is an excellent example of a fake problem. The project was taking all of their time...because they *DECIDED* to spend all of their time on it. No one was forcing them work on it. So they cannot create a fake problem, then use that problem as an excuse to break the rules.

Long story short, epic fail.

artan42

If this was a few years ago then I would have been more upset. However, with the next film and a new TV series on the horizon, I'm less concerned with fan-films. Especially ones with a massive sense of entitlement towards an IP they don't own but believe they should be able to make money from.​​

theanothername

thegrandnagus1 wrote: »

For anyone new to this subject, allow me to summarize:

1) Axanar raised $1,000,000 by using the Trek IP without permission.

2) The Axanar team then paid themselves a salary with some of that money.

3) The Axanar team then used some of that money to build a sound stage that they stated they planned to rent for profit.

---

For most fan productions, number 1 isn't usually an issue as long as as all of the money is being invested in the project, and no PROFIT is being made. Although, admittedly, most fan productions don't raise anywhere near that much money, and the more money raised the bigger the red flag. That said, numbers 2 and 3 are where the real problem starts, so here goes...

No, it is NOT wrong for a non profit organization to have paid employees. Organizations like the Red Cross are examples of non profits with paid employees.

However(and this is the key point), if you don't actually work for the Red Cross, you can't print off their logos, then go down to the mall and raise money, then keep some of that money to pay yourself. You cannot profit yourself using the Red Cross brand without their express permission. Likewise, you cannot profit yourself using the Trek brand without the IP owner's express permission, which Axanar did not have.

The same logic described above also applies to the sound stage. They cannot use funds raised by using the Trek IP without permission, then use those funds to build something that will make them a profit.

So, the part where they absolutely screwed themselves was where they decided to start profiting. Now, here is their defense: the project was taking all of our time, and we needed money to live on. This is an excellent example of a fake problem. The project was taking all of their time...because they *DECIDED* to spend all of their time on it. No one was forcing them work on it. So they cannot create a fake problem, then use that problem as an excuse to break the rules.

Long story short, epic fail.

True on all points.

I guess what makes most ppl worried is that none of this was subject to the lawsuit IIRC but instead all the stuff that other fair-playing fanproductions does was.

And this is where it can became ugly on all fronts; since this does not shots down the valid mistake done by Peters but the gentlemen's agreement between them and all fanproductions; and that might possibly also fire back against the bigwigs since they in this case bark against stuff done by every other fangroup for decades; which would be IMO equally bad as if its the other way around.

evilmark444

thegrandnagus1 wrote: »

For anyone new to this subject, allow me to summarize:

1) Axanar raised $1,000,000 by using the Trek IP without permission.

2) The Axanar team then paid themselves a salary with some of that money.

3) The Axanar team then used some of that money to build a sound stage that they stated they planned to rent for profit.

---

For most fan productions, number 1 isn't usually an issue as long as as all of the money is being invested in the project, and no PROFIT is being made. Although, admittedly, most fan productions don't raise anywhere near that much money, and the more money raised the bigger the red flag. That said, numbers 2 and 3 are where the real problem starts, so here goes...

No, it is NOT wrong for a non profit organization to have paid employees. Organizations like the Red Cross are examples of non profits with paid employees.

However(and this is the key point), if you don't actually work for the Red Cross, you can't print off their logos, then go down to the mall and raise money, then keep some of that money to pay yourself. You cannot profit yourself using the Red Cross brand without their express permission. Likewise, you cannot profit yourself using the Trek brand without the IP owner's express permission, which Axanar did not have.

The same logic described above also applies to the sound stage. They cannot use funds raised by using the Trek IP without permission, then use those funds to build something that will make them a profit.

So, the part where they absolutely screwed themselves was where they decided to start profiting. Now, here is their defense: the project was taking all of our time, and we needed money to live on. This is an excellent example of a fake problem. The project was taking all of their time...because they *DECIDED* to spend all of their time on it. No one was forcing them work on it. So they cannot create a fake problem, then use that problem as an excuse to break the rules.

Long story short, epic fail.

Funny, last week when I first heard about this I was mildly angry towards CBS and Paramount, but after getting those extra couple details about them paying themselves and essentially building a future small business (sound stage) with the donation money ... my opinion has taken a complete 180.

Mountains of excrement are about to land on these guy's heads, and they deserve every ounce ... I mean if you're going to do a project that clearly violates a copyright, and the only thing potentially keeping you out of the courtroom is a lack of profit, the number one priority should be keeping any and all personal financials, current and future, completely separate from the project's financials in every way. These people give fan-fiction producers a bad name.

mirrorchaos

the way see it, is like alec and his group are on a boat on the water, no paddles because there are two sharks circling in the water around the boat, you can see the fins sticking out of the water, cbs and paramount are these sharks and they can smell and taste blood in the water, they snapped the paddles in half and if i were on this boat, i would of chained alec and his group to each other and chucked them over the side and let the sharks feed.

on another note, it is interesting to see CBS and Paramount covering each other over the lawsuit. still, i hope paramount and CBS wont cooperate over crapverse at any point in the future.

georikzaberisk

thegrandnagus1 wrote: »

For anyone new to this subject, allow me to summarize:

1) Axanar raised $1,000,000 by using the Trek IP without permission.

2) The Axanar team then paid themselves a salary with some of that money.

3) The Axanar team then used some of that money to build a sound stage that they stated they planned to rent for profit.

---

For most fan productions, number 1 isn't usually an issue as long as as all of the money is being invested in the project, and no PROFIT is being made. Although, admittedly, most fan productions don't raise anywhere near that much money, and the more money raised the bigger the red flag. That said, numbers 2 and 3 are where the real problem starts, so here goes...

No, it is NOT wrong for a non profit organization to have paid employees. Organizations like the Red Cross are examples of non profits with paid employees.

However(and this is the key point), if you don't actually work for the Red Cross, you can't print off their logos, then go down to the mall and raise money, then keep some of that money to pay yourself. You cannot profit yourself using the Red Cross brand without their express permission. Likewise, you cannot profit yourself using the Trek brand without the IP owner's express permission, which Axanar did not have.

The same logic described above also applies to the sound stage. They cannot use funds raised by using the Trek IP without permission, then use those funds to build something that will make them a profit.

So, the part where they absolutely screwed themselves was where they decided to start profiting. Now, here is their defense: the project was taking all of our time, and we needed money to live on. This is an excellent example of a fake problem. The project was taking all of their time...because they *DECIDED* to spend all of their time on it. No one was forcing them work on it. So they cannot create a fake problem, then use that problem as an excuse to break the rules.

Long story short, epic fail.

I think No.1 and 2 might just, perhaps Paramount/CBS let it slide by. It's the 3rd one that sounded the Alarm to Code Red.

Before Alec's announcement that he will use the "Rest of the Profit" to make a studio Paramount/CBS is doing what they usually do. Ignoring most Fan Films.

As he stated himself as "Doing the less Infringement" he made a fatal flaw. This also cements the fact that no matter how much the other fan films did some infringement the other Fan films made, it's not as big as what Alec stated he was going to do which is the number 3. Hence up till now, they just turned a blind eye over the fan films.

mhall85

Part of me, admittedly, will enjoy watching Peters, Burnett, and Axanar go down in flames. They're an embarrassment to the fan base, with the way they've acted.

Most of me, however, just wants them to go away. I wish/hope the judge would see the ridiculousness of this case, and throw it out with no chance of appeal.

equinox976

I'm just a bit gob smacked this guy thinks he actually has a leg to stand on.

There is a huge difference between what he is attempting to do and what other fan films have done.

Other fan films are more akin to kids selling lemonade outside their house for a bit of fun (and little to no profit). People think 'oh how cute!' its a little bit of fun any nobody gets harmed.

Alec's actions are more like barging into a lemonade shop - setting up a lemonade stall and actively taking away profits/customers from the owner of the said store.

Alec's actions have put 'fan flick' projects in jeopardy, not just for Star Trek, but perhaps other franchises as well: his blatant use of specialist lawyers in the I.P area is most likely going to have other I.P holders sending cease and desist letters to any and all fan flick creators in order to pre-empt any copy-cat behaviour.

Far from being a 'saviour' of the people who is 'sticking it to the man' Alec is actively profiteering from two things that do not belong to him: Other peoples money (which they donated not for him to make a profit, but to make a fan flick) and somebody else's I.P which he has never had any claim to (hell, even the Roddenburys have no claim to the I.P!).

His behaviour is both greedy, and damaging to the Trek community; he should have backed down at the first sign of trouble, apologised to CBS/Paramount, and continued to make the film (if they were kind enough to allow it) on a none profit basis.

According to his pro bono legal team - his defence in court will be that CBS/Paramount has never sued any other fan made productions so his own production should not be singled out. Basicly he is going to lose (and lose hard) and pull the rest of the fan productions under the bus with him unless he shuts up an apologises (soon).

If he puts CBS/Paramount through the time and effort to defend thier I.P in court - in addition to the potential damage to their image (big old corporation beating on the little guy it will most likely be reported in the news); they are very unlikely to continue allowing fan productions in future - it will be far simpler and less hassle for them to simple issue 'cease and desist' letters and come down like a ton of bricks on fan productions.

mirrorchaos

equinox976 wrote: »

I'm just a bit gob smacked this guy thinks he actually has a leg to stand on.

There is a huge difference between what he is attempting to do and what other fan films have done.

Other fan films are more akin to kids selling lemonade outside their house for a bit of fun (and little to no profit). People think 'oh how cute!' its a little bit of fun any nobody gets harmed.

Alec's actions are more like barging into a lemonade shop - setting up a lemonade stall and actively taking away profits/customers from the owner of the said store.

Alec's actions have put 'fan flick' projects in jeopardy, not just for Star Trek, but perhaps other franchises as well: his blatant use of specialist lawyers in the I.P area is most likely going to have other I.P holders sending cease and desist letters to any and all fan flick creators in order to pre-empt any copy-cat behaviour.

Far from being a 'saviour' of the people who is 'sticking it to the man' Alec is actively profiteering from two things that do not belong to him: Other peoples money (which they donated not for him to make a profit, but to make a fan flick) and somebody else's I.P which he has never had any claim to (hell, even the Roddenburys have no claim to the I.P!).

His behaviour is both greedy, and damaging to the Trek community; he should have backed down at the first sign of trouble, apologised to CBS/Paramount, and continued to make the film (if they were kind enough to allow it) on a none profit basis.

According to his pro bono legal team - his defence in court will be that CBS/Paramount has never sued any other fan made productions so his own production should not be singled out. Basicly he is going to lose (and lose hard) and pull the rest of the fan productions under the bus with him unless he shuts up an apologises (soon).

If he puts CBS/Paramount through the time and effort to defend thier I.P in court - in addition to the potential damage to their image (big old corporation beating on the little guy it will most likely be reported in the news); they are very unlikely to continue allowing fan productions in future - it will be far simpler and less hassle for them to simple issue 'cease and desist' letters and come down like a ton of bricks on fan productions.

i do not see this as likely to happen, that others are going to get burned because this arrogant man thinks he has the god damn given right to defecate where ever he pleases. he is one man. he messed up but blaming others for his actions does no good for anyone. if the CBS and Paramount execs have noted the past decade how many fan based products have come out that are non profit -- i would be surprised if CBS or Paramount would crack down on everyone else because of this lawsuit.

the minority should never be used as if it were the majority because that is a rubbish claim.

thegrandnagus1

Guess what? Justin Lin(the 'Star Trek Beyond' director) just tweeted in favor of Axanar:

https://twitter.com/trailingjohnson/status/709285689095917568

I say "in favor of Axanar" because he is calling the lawsuit ridiculous and saying Trek belongs to the fans(not an IP holder). My guess is he doesn't actually know the details. Why? Because by *his* logic, it would be OK for me to print off posters of his movies and then go sell them on the street, which would probably be less money in his pocket. So that is why I'm guessing he does not actually know what is going on.

equinox976

thegrandnagus1 wrote: »

Guess what? Justin Lin(the 'Star Trek Beyond' director) just tweeted in favor of Axanar:

https://twitter.com/trailingjohnson/status/709285689095917568

My guess is he doesn't actually know the details. Why? Because by *his* logic, it would be OK for me to print off posters of his movies and then go sell them on the street, which would probably be less money in his pocket. So that is why I'm guessing he does not actually know what is going on.

Pretty sure you're right there. He says "Trek belongs to all of us"

I guess he doesn't want his directors fee paid by paramount then; perhaps he will be happy to give it back and ask for it to be paid via a crowdsourced fund

markhawkman

mirrorchaos wrote: »

equinox976 wrote: »

I'm just a bit gob smacked this guy thinks he actually has a leg to stand on.

There is a huge difference between what he is attempting to do and what other fan films have done.

Other fan films are more akin to kids selling lemonade outside their house for a bit of fun (and little to no profit). People think 'oh how cute!' its a little bit of fun any nobody gets harmed.

Alec's actions are more like barging into a lemonade shop - setting up a lemonade stall and actively taking away profits/customers from the owner of the said store.

Alec's actions have put 'fan flick' projects in jeopardy, not just for Star Trek, but perhaps other franchises as well: his blatant use of specialist lawyers in the I.P area is most likely going to have other I.P holders sending cease and desist letters to any and all fan flick creators in order to pre-empt any copy-cat behaviour.

Far from being a 'saviour' of the people who is 'sticking it to the man' Alec is actively profiteering from two things that do not belong to him: Other peoples money (which they donated not for him to make a profit, but to make a fan flick) and somebody else's I.P which he has never had any claim to (hell, even the Roddenburys have no claim to the I.P!).

His behaviour is both greedy, and damaging to the Trek community; he should have backed down at the first sign of trouble, apologised to CBS/Paramount, and continued to make the film (if they were kind enough to allow it) on a none profit basis.

According to his pro bono legal team - his defence in court will be that CBS/Paramount has never sued any other fan made productions so his own production should not be singled out. Basicly he is going to lose (and lose hard) and pull the rest of the fan productions under the bus with him unless he shuts up an apologises (soon).

If he puts CBS/Paramount through the time and effort to defend thier I.P in court - in addition to the potential damage to their image (big old corporation beating on the little guy it will most likely be reported in the news); they are very unlikely to continue allowing fan productions in future - it will be far simpler and less hassle for them to simple issue 'cease and desist' letters and come down like a ton of bricks on fan productions.

i do not see this as likely to happen, that others are going to get burned because this arrogant man thinks he has the god damn given right to defecate where ever he pleases. he is one man. he messed up but blaming others for his actions does no good for anyone. if the CBS and Paramount execs have noted the past decade how many fan based products have come out that are non profit -- i would be surprised if CBS or Paramount would crack down on everyone else because of this lawsuit.

the minority should never be used as if it were the majority because that is a rubbish claim.

I see it as likely that CBS will simply use him as an example of what fan productions should not do. Then go back to business as usual.

daveyny

thegrandnagus1 wrote: »

Guess what? Justin Lin(the 'Star Trek Beyond' director) just tweeted in favor of Axanar:

https://twitter.com/trailingjohnson/status/709285689095917568

My guess is he doesn't actually know the details. Why? Because by *his* logic, it would be OK for me to print off posters of his movies and then go sell them on the street, which would probably be less money in his pocket. So that is why I'm guessing he does not actually know what is going on.

I think he's more worried about the Trek Fan-base in general, than the idiot at the top of Axanar Productions.

If CBS & Paramount actually push in court (and win) for their claim to the Klingon Language (and such), it could put a real dampener on all future fan-based productions.

They would probably have to continue to block ALL productions not their own, after having set such a big precedent or risk losing in a possible future lawsuit.

<shrug>

markhawkman

the Klingon thing would get awkward fast due to how much it's been used outside the tv shows.

equinox976

markhawkman wrote: »

the Klingon thing would get awkward fast due to how much it's been used outside the tv shows.

Fool!

CBS/Paramount has already trademarked the Universal Translator (TM)

In a few short years, no self respecting T.V show/talk show would be without such a device.

Klingon is the most popular language in SciFi history.

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!!!




(Yes Bones' agree's that hitting pregnant women will create MIGHTY WARRIORS!!)

cmdrscarlet

In the real world, Justin Lin is wrong.

Paramount and CBS are fighting for posterity. They can't let this one pass, otherwise more will happen.

mhall85

G&T Show had another great breakdown of this, from their lawyer/co-host...

She brought up the point that the only thing CBS/Paramount cares to do is show the court that Axanar has willfully infringed on the IP. Notice, they've not even gotten into all of the trademark violations (yes, this is probably where the Klingon language thing really belongs, but more on that in a second). In essence, they don't need to. Yes, it's a language, but I bet they hold trademarks on the word "Klingon", and you can bet that Simon & Schuster (publisher of the original Kiingon Dictionary, and subsidiary of CBS) holds a few copyright and trademarks on it.

At least some of the instances of Klingon appearing in pop culture would fall under fair use or parody laws, methinks, so that's a red herring.

But, again, all of this is beside the point. Paramount and CBS are laying out the groundwork for a jury trial with this most recent document. All they have to do is show example after example, of all of these things to prove one simple point: Axanar is copying the Star Trek IP without permission. The mention of the Klingon language is only being used to prove the broader point. Alec Peters is not using made up guttural sounds and calling it "Klingon"... he's using the actual language made for the IP, to add authenticity to his product. If a jury (which would likely be comprised of non-fans) can't distinguish between the actual IP and Axanar, because of such attempts at authenticity, that's copyright infringement.

If CBS/Paramount can prove this singular point... and, HAH, they have and they will... Axanar is toast.

thegrandnagus1

Also, about Justin Lin's tweet: if Trek belongs to the fans, not the IP holder, is it OK if people pirate the movie instead of going to theaters and spending money on it? I doubt he thinks that.

equinox976

thegrandnagus1 wrote: »

Also, about Justin Lin's tweet: if Trek belongs to the fans, not the IP holder, is it OK if people pirate the movie instead of going to theaters and spending money on it? I doubt he thinks that.

I would not be surprised if Alec and his pro bono legal team uses this tweet in court; "A major director of the I.P has stated that "Star Trek" belongs to everybody".

equinox976

valoreah wrote: »

I don't see CBS/Paramount going after other fan productions...

You say that (and I hope you are right). But part of the defense being put forth by Alec is that CBS/Paramount has never 'gone after' any other fan production.

I agree they never should have (and hopefully never will) but case law can be a very funny fickle thing. If there is even a 'sniff' of a ruling that CBS/Paramount have been unfair towards Alec in his actions and that its 'proven' he has been treated unfairly (in that CBS/Paramount has never gone after other fan projects). CBS/Paramount are well within their rights to come down like a ton of bricks on any (none parody) fan efforts - and to delete any and all YouTube uploads (ect) of fan made projects.

Therein lies why the Trek' community is so upset with Alec. He has single single handedly dismantled all the good will (and continues to do so) that CBS/Paramount has towards the fans. His case (and the fact he is involving pro bono (highly experienced I.P lawyers) is why fan flick supporters hate him so much.

Effectively; he is the bad guy, portraying himself as the good guy. Whilst the true reality is that CBS/Paramount have always been very even handed and turned a blind eye to the Trek' fan flick community. Basically he is being an TRIBBLE. And in doing so he is potentially going to cause alot of damage (not to mention bad feeling) in the Trek community.

evilmark444

equinox976 wrote: »

valoreah wrote: »

I don't see CBS/Paramount going after other fan productions...

You say that (and I hope you are right). But part of the defense being put forth by Alec is that CBS/Paramount has never 'gone after' any other fan production.

I agree they never should have (and hopefully never will) but case law can be a very funny fickle thing. If there is even a 'sniff' of a ruling that CBS/Paramount have been unfair towards Alec in his actions and that its 'proven' he has been treated unfairly (in that CBS/Paramount has never gone after other fan projects). CBS/Paramount are well within their rights to come down like a ton of bricks on any (none parody) fan efforts - and to delete any and all YouTube uploads (ect) of fan made projects.

Therein lies why the Trek' community is so upset with Alec. He has single single handedly dismantled all the good will (and continues to do so) that CBS/Paramount has towards the fans. His case (and the fact he is involving pro bono (highly experienced I.P lawyers) is why fan flick supporters hate him so much.

Effectively; he is the bad guy, portraying himself as the good guy. Whilst the true reality is that CBS/Paramount have always been very even handed and turned a blind eye to the Trek' fan flick community. Basically he is being an TRIBBLE. And in doing so he is potentially going to cause alot of damage (not to mention bad feeling) in the Trek community.

I agree with Valoreah, this lawsuit will be limited to this one team. The issue is not the actual IP infringement, that's just the easiest aspect to prove in court and the one thing that really can't be defended in any way. If the team hadn't paid themselves from the donation money, and hadn't announced plans to rent out the Soundstage they were going to build with that money, it's very likely none of this would have happened.