My point is that the Maquis were by definition NOT civilian targets as they were armed "freedom fighters" living in places where they KNEW the Cardassians were legally allowed to carpet bomb them into oblivion. What the Sisko did was far more merciful than the alternative.
You're still not getting it. Even if the Federation has legalized chemical weapons use, do you know for a fact that every man, woman, and child on Solosos III was actively involved in the Maquis?
"Active" involvement is irrelevant, they were still criminals for living in Cardassian space.
One could argue that the effects of a nuclear bomb would be much more immediate than was the intent here, though. Your comparison is flawed - Sisko gave ample warning of his actions so that the Maquis would be capable of evacuating in time, and picked a weapon that would give them time to evacuate even after the attack.
Yeah, a better analogy would be using tear gas on rioters.
Which doesn't mean that there wasn't some harm done by displacing the colonists in question, but compared to the amount of people that would have been displaced or harmed by further Maquis use of the biogenic weapons... *shrugs* He probably made the best of a bad situation.
Yeah, also, he was gassing a colony that shouldn't have been there in the first place.
The only reason I used a nuke was because to my knowledge a chemical weapon that only becomes lethal a few hours after dispersal does not exist on Earth.
It's called CS gas.... look it up. It's not a matter of time after dispersal, it's a matter of continued exposure. CS irritates the lungs. Stay in the cloud for 5 hours and you die due to the inflammation reaching a point where your lungs can no longer process oxygen.
Edit: Bloody hellfire! 'Ch1nks in the armour' is censored!? What repressed three year old wrote the bleeding filter?
Scunthorpe Problem. The word is also an ethnic slur against Chinese people.
I remember having the Foundry profanity filter complain about me using the word "c*ck" in the context of "cocking one's head". Of course, then I turned right around and used the Arabic word for "sh*t" and got away with it...
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
My point is that the Maquis were by definition NOT civilian targets as they were armed "freedom fighters" living in places where they KNEW the Cardassians were legally allowed to carpet bomb them into oblivion. What the Sisko did was far more merciful than the alternative.
You're still not getting it. Even if the Federation has legalized chemical weapons use, do you know for a fact that every man, woman, and child on Solosos III was actively involved in the Maquis?
"Active" involvement is irrelevant, they were still criminals for living in Cardassian space.
And that's where you're wrong. By international human rights statutes and laws of war you are only permitted to use military force against persons actively involved in war-related activities, and even then there are limits: for example, targeting hospitals, medics, and chaplains is completely forbidden, even if they're treating enemy soldiers. There was a big shitstorm in Afghanistan just this fall when Afghan Army troops called in a US airstrike against a Doctors Without Borders hospital in Kunduz Province that, per the organization's remit, had been treating all comers including Taliban fighters injured in combat.
By your logic Médecins Sans Frontières only had itself to blame for the total destruction of the hospital and the deaths of 42 personnel and patients.
One could argue that the effects of a nuclear bomb would be much more immediate than was the intent here, though. Your comparison is flawed - Sisko gave ample warning of his actions so that the Maquis would be capable of evacuating in time, and picked a weapon that would give them time to evacuate even after the attack.
Yeah, a better analogy would be using tear gas on rioters.
Which doesn't mean that there wasn't some harm done by displacing the colonists in question, but compared to the amount of people that would have been displaced or harmed by further Maquis use of the biogenic weapons... *shrugs* He probably made the best of a bad situation.
Yeah, also, he was gassing a colony that shouldn't have been there in the first place.
Whether the colony was supposed to be there or not is irrelevant to its status as a civilian target.
The only reason I used a nuke was because to my knowledge a chemical weapon that only becomes lethal a few hours after dispersal does not exist on Earth.
It's called CS gas.... look it up. It's not a matter of time after dispersal, it's a matter of continued exposure. CS irritates the lungs. Stay in the cloud for 5 hours and you die due to the inflammation reaching a point where your lungs can no longer process oxygen.
Fine, replace the nuke with a CS gas attack. Does that make gassing Raqqa an acceptable option? After all, they've got five hours to escape! /sarcasm
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Enh... It's questionable as to why that stuff Sisko used is categorized as a "biogenic weapon". Especially since it's apparently only harmful with prolonged exposure.
that also begs the question of just WHAT a biogenic weapon actually is...whether it's just a fancy name for chemical weapons or something else entirely
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Enh... It's questionable as to why that stuff Sisko used is categorized as a "biogenic weapon". Especially since it's apparently only harmful with prolonged exposure.
Because Star Trek writers use "biogenic weapon" in place of "weapon of mass destruction that doesn't involve radioactive material".
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
that also begs the question of just WHAT a biogenic weapon actually is...whether it's just a fancy name for chemical weapons or something else entirely
Yeah, it's apparently a blanket term for anything that targets organic life. Thalaron Radiation, Trilithium Resin, Acamarian Microviruses, Teplan Blight, the "Harvesters", and more, all were referred to by this blanket term.
Acamarian Microviruses are true bioweapons. So utterly deadly they kill within minutes of exposure. But they are precisely targeted to specific genetic sequences and are harmless to anyone without those. Mass exposure of a city might only kill 1 person who happened to have the genes targeted.
Thalaron Radiation is used in WMDs..
Teplan blight is interesting in that it was engineered to NOT kill people until after they were old enough to have borne children. But that was because the Founders were in a malicious mood when it was created.
Then you have Trilithium Resin... Which will eventually kill you... eventually.
Weapons ban violations are weapons ban violations, no ifs ands or buts about it, no weaseling out of it, no excuses, no justifications, nothing is possible that makes it not a violation. It is also wildly out of character for the Federation and Starfleet not to punish Sisko for it. Especially a Starfleet that prosecuted James Kirk for the death of one officer and supposedly falsifying a report, a Starfleet that hunted down the USS Phoenix and Captain Ben Maxwell, a Starfleet that prosecuted Admiral Pressman for his violation of 1 treaty with 1 other power, a treaty a lot less important that the biogenic weapons ban.
You know... after reviewing things... I don't think there IS an actual BAN on the use of "biogenic" weapons in general. As I pointed out elsewhere, it's a giant umbrella for so many different things with such widely different applications that there probably isn't a single rule that covers all of it. Certain specific ones like Thalaron have been mentioned to be banned.
But the episode in question suggested that the proper procedure in that situation was to ask your superiors for permission. The Sisko's report to Starfleet probably characterized it as a decision made in an emergency scenario where there was no time for red tape. At any rate... Expected fatalities from the bombing of that one planet? Pretty much zero. The Sisko told them to get off before he bombed it, and as I noted earlier, Trilithium Resin exposure is not instantly fatal.
Now that Acamarian microvirus Yuta used.... YYEEESSHHHH!!! That one was transmitted by skin contact, simply touching her hand was enough exposure to die within minutes. It was bad enough that Riker resorted to vaporizing Yuta to keep her from touching her next target.
And yes... the ACAMARIANS apparently invented that nasty little piece of work themselves.
Ich entschuldige mich @dasverärgertSchwein. Fühlen Sie frei, mein Deutsche zu beheben, wenn ich jemals es sprechen.
That's the worst case of google translate I've read since spam mails started to translate from chinese
I agree that TNG's future is the one we all want (the latter series ones obviously. Nobody wants 'Code of Honour' in their future ) but the TNG crew are still aliens to my eyes. That's not to say some episodes don't really hit home (Worf almost being paralysed is one) or that all of DS9 does speak to me ('Prophet and Lace' speaks to nobody I'd imagine). But DS9 showed the ch1nks in TNG's armour, namely that whilst the Federation could build a utopia, the Breen, Borg, Dominion, Romulans, and Klingons were waiting. That I think helped the characters from DS9 because some were clearly TNG era Federation characters (Bashir, O'Brien, Dax, Worf) who all go through the same changes from TNG style DS9S1 and 2 along with the audience.
I agree, although TNG also had a few instances where it was clear that TNGs utopia was limited to Sol itself (Tasha Yar or basically the whole Cardassian arc). A discrepancy between ideals and reality is a given. The difference is that in TNG the crew tried to uphold those ideals and always find the best solution for the situation while Sisko basically admits defeat (and hurts himself in the process, at least). We didn't yet pull a full "Jack bauer" and pretend betraying fundamental ideals is "necessary" aside from S31 which are however not yet portrayed as grimdark antiheroes (unlike Archer torturing people because...).
A Russian in the middle of the Cold War. Could you imagine the accusations of pandering or PC gone mad if a Middle Easterner were to lead the new show? Or worse...
...A woman!
A Russian I can live with, at least we can make fun of his heritage. But a woman? That's just repulsive, absolutely obscene. How are we gonna make fun of her, talk about icky 'lady problems'? Nah, just remove number one and replace her with Janyce the secretary
But then again the whole Marquis plot was side-winddled into DS9 in order to set up VOY, who did an even worse job with it!
VOY didn't even touch it. Yes, there was Seska but honestly, the fact that a part of the crew was Maquis (r?) was abandoned almost immedeatly.
A case can be made either way here. Yes, it's dishonorable to fire on unarmed civilians - but it's also dishonorable to disobey a superior officer, especially since the Klingon Empire has no concept of "illegal orders". The question would then become, which is the greater dishonor?
I really wanted to see an episode in there somewhere in which Sisko had to confront what this conflict was turning him into. That would have made for epic TV, and Avery Brooks would have had an excellent time with it. Sadly, it was not to be...
As pointed out by shadowfang, it would be considered dishonourable to not oppose a commanding officer that would give dishonourable orders (the more oyu say "dishonourable" the less meaningful it gets ). But since Worf was rather decoupled from Klingon society and upheld ideals of both cultures he had to refuse the order on both accounts, being a Klingon warrior and being a Starfleet officer (I still won't accept Picard rambling about "never question orders from a higher up" when deporting the Indians as more than a one of a kind writing error).
I agree with the aftermath and I think that's also what @artan42 referred to. No follow up for Sisko before he went off becoming space Jesus or whatever.
(...)Expected fatalities from the bombing of that one planet? Pretty much zero. The Sisko told them to get off before he bombed it, and as I noted earlier, Trilithium Resin exposure is not instantly fatal.
(...)
I would disagree. A one hour warning to evacuate a whole planet of fledging refugees before posining the atmosphere doesn't undo the wrongness of the action, the dialogue with Eddington is actually spot on. Besides it wouldn't make it any better if he had given a week's notice. Burning people's homes out of convenience to hit a few targets within them should never be an acceptable method.
Post edited by angrytarg on
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I think even if the use of the weapon per se was legal, the fundamental problem is that displacing a bunch of people that haven't actually commited crimes or acts of war is something that would warrant further investigation.
The episode deserved a follow-up. Or not having done this in the first place, if they knew that wouldn't happen.
"Active" involvement is irrelevant, they were still criminals for living in Cardassian space.
We know every little about the treaty that lead to the problem, but we can be pretty certain that the colonies are not illegally there. If they were, the Cardies would have simply removed them already, instead of jumping through hoops like arming their own colonists in the area via proxies so that no one can prove they did it.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
My point is that the Maquis were by definition NOT civilian targets as they were armed "freedom fighters" living in places where they KNEW the Cardassians were legally allowed to carpet bomb them into oblivion. What the Sisko did was far more merciful than the alternative.
You're still not getting it. Even if the Federation has legalized chemical weapons use, do you know for a fact that every man, woman, and child on Solosos III was actively involved in the Maquis?
Maquis operated on a lot of colonies in the DMZ and had a lot of sympathizers within the colonists because they were basically abandoned by the Federation when those worlds were handed to the Cardassians, i doubt very much that the majority cared to be pawns of Cardassian rule once more and were not happy with the Federation.
I cant imagine there would be that many innocent people left in the colonies considering the border wars about 25 years before hand.
How many different ways and times do I have to spell it out? Having sympathies for an enemy group does not a legitimate military target make. I could theoretically tweet that Daesh is the bestest thing ever until the cows come home, but unless and until I actually try to fly off and join them I'm protected by the First Amendment and basic human rights.
Is this one of those situations where you are so dug in that you wont listen to anyone elses opinion that doesnt fits your "theory"? i dont care how many different ways you will or wont explain it out according to yourself, and politics as essentially that is what this reply is, i will state this.
a population held under the threat of death or slavery has been recorded in the past, most recent example is that of world war 2, France had fallen to the NSDAP, but many innocent people caught in between turned themselves into resistance fighters against the occupation. further in the trek world it was the same for the cardassians, they were pushed off Bajor by a united force of innoncent people who had enough and defended themselves.
as for your first ammendent thing, try the patriot act instead, your rights are not protected if the US government thinks you are a sympathizer for that terrorist group.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
One could argue that the effects of a nuclear bomb would be much more immediate than was the intent here, though. Your comparison is flawed - Sisko gave ample warning of his actions so that the Maquis would be capable of evacuating in time, and picked a weapon that would give them time to evacuate even after the attack.
Which doesn't mean that there wasn't some harm done by displacing the colonists in question, but compared to the amount of people that would have been displaced or harmed by further Maquis use of the biogenic weapons... *shrugs* He probably made the best of a bad situation.
The only reason I used a nuke was because to my knowledge a chemical weapon that only becomes lethal a few hours after dispersal does not exist on Earth. The Raqqa analogy is actually quite apt. Read the script of the scene for God's sake: his warning had absolutely no effect. The Solosans didn't believe a serving Federation officer was mentally capable of such an act, and for good reason, until Sisko actually fired on the planet.
And his entire plan relied on the ability of thousands of people to be able to drop everything and pack themselves into whatever ships were available in the TRIBBLE end of nowhere in mere hours. Never mind the morality of the situation, that is a logistically terrible plan. Sisko was very, very lucky.
They scrambled transports virtually immediately. I'd say that strongly suggests they did the sensible thing and chose not to take any chances with their lives.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
I think even if the use of the weapon per se was legal, the fundamental problem is that displacing a bunch of people that haven't actually commited crimes or acts of war is something that would warrant further investigation.
The episode deserved a follow-up. Or not having done this in the first place, if they knew that wouldn't happen.
"Active" involvement is irrelevant, they were still criminals for living in Cardassian space.
We know every little about the treaty that lead to the problem, but we can be pretty certain that the colonies are not illegally there. If they were, the Cardies would have simply removed them already, instead of jumping through hoops like arming their own colonists in the area via proxies so that no one can prove they did it.
Enh, it's also possible the treaty didn't actually allow the Cardassians to kick them off.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
My point is that the Maquis were by definition NOT civilian targets as they were armed "freedom fighters" living in places where they KNEW the Cardassians were legally allowed to carpet bomb them into oblivion. What the Sisko did was far more merciful than the alternative.
You're still not getting it. Even if the Federation has legalized chemical weapons use, do you know for a fact that every man, woman, and child on Solosos III was actively involved in the Maquis?
Maquis operated on a lot of colonies in the DMZ and had a lot of sympathizers within the colonists because they were basically abandoned by the Federation when those worlds were handed to the Cardassians, i doubt very much that the majority cared to be pawns of Cardassian rule once more and were not happy with the Federation.
I cant imagine there would be that many innocent people left in the colonies considering the border wars about 25 years before hand.
How many different ways and times do I have to spell it out? Having sympathies for an enemy group does not a legitimate military target make. I could theoretically tweet that Daesh is the bestest thing ever until the cows come home, but unless and until I actually try to fly off and join them I'm protected by the First Amendment and basic human rights.
Is this one of those situations where you are so dug in that you wont listen to anyone elses opinion that doesnt fits your "theory"? i dont care how many different ways you will or wont explain it out according to yourself, and politics as essentially that is what this reply is, i will state this.
a population held under the threat of death or slavery has been recorded in the past, most recent example is that of world war 2, France had fallen to the NSDAP, but many innocent people caught in between turned themselves into resistance fighters against the occupation. further in the trek world it was the same for the cardassians, they were pushed off Bajor by a united force of innoncent people who had enough and defended themselves.
And just like in my Raqqa example where not everyone in the city is a member of Daesh, not every Bajoran was a member of the Resistance, just like not every Frenchman, Pole, Italian, Ukrainian, Russian, etc. in the occupied territories fought in their respective region's partisan groups: some worked for the occupiers instead, most just ducked their heads down and tried to survive. Or go back to the American Revolution: only about two-thirds of the colonial population even had an opinion either way, never mind being actively involved with either the rebellion or the loyalists.
That is what I'm saying. The Maquis, like any organization ever, did not have universal support even within their own territory; Sisko's informant is proof enough of that. And even of those who supported their actions in theory, not all of them were actively involved in the organization. The technical term for what Sisko did is "collective punishment", which when carried out as a military act is considered a war crime under the Fourth Geneva Convention, Article 33: "No persons may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed." And as long as I'm quoting the Geneva Conventions, Article 49: "Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive."
as for your first ammendent thing, try the patriot act instead, your rights are not protected if the US government thinks you are a sympathizer for that terrorist group.
Yes, they are, and if the government thinks otherwise they can talk to the lawyer which I am also constitutionally guaranteed. According to the US Constitution the worst thing that can happen to me for being a terrorist sympathizer is I get banned from Twitter: as a private entity they don't have to follow the First Amendment.
they violated pretty much every other part of that treaty...why would they bother obeying that part of it?
Too obvious for plausible deniability. They went to a hell of a lot of trouble to sneak around the treaty; openly violating it might have actually forced the Federation to do its damn job.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
One could argue that the effects of a nuclear bomb would be much more immediate than was the intent here, though. Your comparison is flawed - Sisko gave ample warning of his actions so that the Maquis would be capable of evacuating in time, and picked a weapon that would give them time to evacuate even after the attack.
Which doesn't mean that there wasn't some harm done by displacing the colonists in question, but compared to the amount of people that would have been displaced or harmed by further Maquis use of the biogenic weapons... *shrugs* He probably made the best of a bad situation.
The only reason I used a nuke was because to my knowledge a chemical weapon that only becomes lethal a few hours after dispersal does not exist on Earth. The Raqqa analogy is actually quite apt. Read the script of the scene for God's sake: his warning had absolutely no effect. The Solosans didn't believe a serving Federation officer was mentally capable of such an act, and for good reason, until Sisko actually fired on the planet.
And his entire plan relied on the ability of thousands of people to be able to drop everything and pack themselves into whatever ships were available in the TRIBBLE end of nowhere in mere hours. Never mind the morality of the situation, that is a logistically terrible plan. Sisko was very, very lucky.
They scrambled transports virtually immediately. I'd say that strongly suggests they did the sensible thing and chose not to take any chances with their lives.
And if said transports had not been available? Hell, it took longer than an hour to evacuate Fort MacMurray - and they weren't limited to loading everyone onto a handful of buses, or fighting a gravity well on the way out! Imagine, if you will, a situation in which the colony, which has no reason to believe it might have to evacuate on a moment's notice, simply does not have the ships available. Or one in which, due to a lack of traffic control as panicked civilians try to flee their imminent massacre, two or more of the ships collide, killing hundreds or thousands of terrified passengers. Passengers, might I add, whose sole crime was living on the same planet as a group of alleged terrorists (we have only Sisko's informant to tell us there was even a Maquis cell there, and the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan have shown us the problems in relying on HUMINT sources with an axe to grind) and one Starfleet deserter.
Hell, a more apt analogy than Raqqa might be noting that there are terrorist cells in various Middle Eastern locations - so we'd better eliminate all life on Earth, just to be sure. We live on the same planet, so we must be criminals too, right?
Even running the risk of a mass slaughter in pursuit of a single man is ludicrous, and one of the greater flaws in DS9 was that Sisko was never brought up on charges for his actions.
Like I said before Trilithium Resin is a lot less deadly than most other things that are categorized as "biogenic weapons".
And wrapping nuclear waste around a fuel-air bomb is "less deadly" than a W87 nuclear warhead. Doesn't mean it's okay to set one off downtown to stop a crime.
Like I said before Trilithium Resin is a lot less deadly than most other things that are categorized as "biogenic weapons".
Even if it would have been non-lethal anaesthezine the act would have been wrong. But you can figure that something is fishy when you start rationalizing something as "it was less deadly than..."
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Not a lot to be said about it, as the only things we know for sure are that it uses the "Star Trek" title, and that if the montage in the "teaser" is anything to go by, it probably takes place in space somewhere.
Ich entschuldige mich @dasverärgertSchwein. Fühlen Sie frei, mein Deutsche zu beheben, wenn ich jemals es sprechen.
That's the worst case of google translate I've read since spam mails started to translate from chinese
Well, now I'm just upset. I used google for the spelling, the attempt is mine. Google threw up something that didn't make sense to me when I reverse translated it. .
I agree, although TNG also had a few instances where it was clear that TNGs utopia was limited to Sol itself (Tasha Yar or basically the whole Cardassian arc). A discrepancy between ideals and reality is a given. The difference is that in TNG the crew tried to uphold those ideals and always find the best solution for the situation while Sisko basically admits defeat (and hurts himself in the process, at least). We didn't yet pull a full "Jack bauer" and pretend betraying fundamental ideals is "necessary" aside from S31 which are however not yet portrayed as grimdark antiheroes (unlike Archer torturing people because...).
Well Sisko is a TNG era Human, he's just not very good at it. Archer is a 21st century Human in the body of a 22nd century one. When Sisko asked Bashir for Biomenetic gel, Bashir refused. If Archer had have asked, Phlox wouldn't have been able to give it to him quickly enough.
It's that bit with Bashir that I like, you wouldn't get that in TNG. Picard wouldn't even have asked Crusher because he wouldn't have entertained the idea. And it takes a toll on Sisko. His dictate in 'In the Pale Moonlight' to the computer is showing a man who's willing to sacrifice himself for the cause, which I believe pushes him further into his magic-space-jesus stuff that ultimately leads to him literally giving his life.
A Russian I can live with, at least we can make fun of his heritage. But a woman? That's just repulsive, absolutely obscene. How are we gonna make fun of her, talk about icky 'lady problems'? Nah, just remove number one and replace her with Janyce the secretary
It's a simple fix, you either give them little jobs (like phone operator) that won't tax their brains or you dress them in really tight clothing so they at least serve a function on the bridge.
But if they're the lead character it's much harder, you have to hire a team of writers with really conflicting views on what her character is (plus they have to overcompensate for the drawback that she's female) and eventually make it look as though she's borderline hysterical or otherwise mad.
VOY didn't even touch it. Yes, there was Seska but honestly, the fact that a part of the crew was Maquis (r?) was abandoned almost immedeatly.
On the upside it did give us the two TNG Marquis plots which were really quite good and did serve Ro well. It's still a huge shame that Ro never made it onto VOY or DS9.
I agree with the aftermath and I think that's also what @artan42 referred to. No follow up for Sisko before he went off becoming space Jesus or whatever.
Not that far along, but directly after the bombing. We've had courtroom episodes of ST before, there was the Worf one that was slightly after the bombing (I think). Like I said, I don't mind either way if he was right to fire the missiles or not, I do dislike the disservive that was done to Sisko, Eddington, and the crew of DS9's characters for no accountability or even lip service to the fact that it's not part of most captains day to day activities.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
As jonsills said, what do you want to say about the new Trek show. You can't fill 30 pages with "I hope it's this and that era". But the thread serves a very important function - see the debates previous shows instill, although liked by many people the interpretation of events and the discussion about is is a significant part of it. The new show has to compete with that.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
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My character Tsin'xing
Scunthorpe Problem. The word is also an ethnic slur against Chinese people.
I remember having the Foundry profanity filter complain about me using the word "c*ck" in the context of "cocking one's head". Of course, then I turned right around and used the Arabic word for "sh*t" and got away with it...
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
By your logic Médecins Sans Frontières only had itself to blame for the total destruction of the hospital and the deaths of 42 personnel and patients.
Fun fact, tear gas is also banned as a weapon of war, under the Chemical Weapons Convention.
Whether the colony was supposed to be there or not is irrelevant to its status as a civilian target.
Fine, replace the nuke with a CS gas attack. Does that make gassing Raqqa an acceptable option? After all, they've got five hours to escape! /sarcasm
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
My character Tsin'xing
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Because Star Trek writers use "biogenic weapon" in place of "weapon of mass destruction that doesn't involve radioactive material".
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Acamarian Microviruses are true bioweapons. So utterly deadly they kill within minutes of exposure. But they are precisely targeted to specific genetic sequences and are harmless to anyone without those. Mass exposure of a city might only kill 1 person who happened to have the genes targeted.
Thalaron Radiation is used in WMDs..
Teplan blight is interesting in that it was engineered to NOT kill people until after they were old enough to have borne children. But that was because the Founders were in a malicious mood when it was created.
Then you have Trilithium Resin... Which will eventually kill you... eventually.
My character Tsin'xing
But the episode in question suggested that the proper procedure in that situation was to ask your superiors for permission. The Sisko's report to Starfleet probably characterized it as a decision made in an emergency scenario where there was no time for red tape. At any rate... Expected fatalities from the bombing of that one planet? Pretty much zero. The Sisko told them to get off before he bombed it, and as I noted earlier, Trilithium Resin exposure is not instantly fatal.
Now that Acamarian microvirus Yuta used.... YYEEESSHHHH!!! That one was transmitted by skin contact, simply touching her hand was enough exposure to die within minutes. It was bad enough that Riker resorted to vaporizing Yuta to keep her from touching her next target.
And yes... the ACAMARIANS apparently invented that nasty little piece of work themselves. It is... painful... Painful enough that people will usually panic if exposed to it and try to run away.
My character Tsin'xing
That's the worst case of google translate I've read since spam mails started to translate from chinese
I agree, although TNG also had a few instances where it was clear that TNGs utopia was limited to Sol itself (Tasha Yar or basically the whole Cardassian arc). A discrepancy between ideals and reality is a given. The difference is that in TNG the crew tried to uphold those ideals and always find the best solution for the situation while Sisko basically admits defeat (and hurts himself in the process, at least). We didn't yet pull a full "Jack bauer" and pretend betraying fundamental ideals is "necessary" aside from S31 which are however not yet portrayed as grimdark antiheroes (unlike Archer torturing people because...).
A Russian I can live with, at least we can make fun of his heritage. But a woman? That's just repulsive, absolutely obscene. How are we gonna make fun of her, talk about icky 'lady problems'? Nah, just remove number one and replace her with Janyce the secretary
VOY didn't even touch it. Yes, there was Seska but honestly, the fact that a part of the crew was Maquis (r?) was abandoned almost immedeatly.
As pointed out by shadowfang, it would be considered dishonourable to not oppose a commanding officer that would give dishonourable orders (the more oyu say "dishonourable" the less meaningful it gets
I agree with the aftermath and I think that's also what @artan42 referred to. No follow up for Sisko before he went off becoming space Jesus or whatever.
I would disagree. A one hour warning to evacuate a whole planet of fledging refugees before posining the atmosphere doesn't undo the wrongness of the action, the dialogue with Eddington is actually spot on. Besides it wouldn't make it any better if he had given a week's notice. Burning people's homes out of convenience to hit a few targets within them should never be an acceptable method.
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The episode deserved a follow-up. Or not having done this in the first place, if they knew that wouldn't happen.
We know every little about the treaty that lead to the problem, but we can be pretty certain that the colonies are not illegally there. If they were, the Cardies would have simply removed them already, instead of jumping through hoops like arming their own colonists in the area via proxies so that no one can prove they did it.
Is this one of those situations where you are so dug in that you wont listen to anyone elses opinion that doesnt fits your "theory"? i dont care how many different ways you will or wont explain it out according to yourself, and politics as essentially that is what this reply is, i will state this.
a population held under the threat of death or slavery has been recorded in the past, most recent example is that of world war 2, France had fallen to the NSDAP, but many innocent people caught in between turned themselves into resistance fighters against the occupation. further in the trek world it was the same for the cardassians, they were pushed off Bajor by a united force of innoncent people who had enough and defended themselves.
as for your first ammendent thing, try the patriot act instead, your rights are not protected if the US government thinks you are a sympathizer for that terrorist group.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
how very sad they censor F M L *rollseyes*
They scrambled transports virtually immediately. I'd say that strongly suggests they did the sensible thing and chose not to take any chances with their lives.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
My character Tsin'xing
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
That is what I'm saying. The Maquis, like any organization ever, did not have universal support even within their own territory; Sisko's informant is proof enough of that. And even of those who supported their actions in theory, not all of them were actively involved in the organization. The technical term for what Sisko did is "collective punishment", which when carried out as a military act is considered a war crime under the Fourth Geneva Convention, Article 33: "No persons may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed." And as long as I'm quoting the Geneva Conventions, Article 49: "Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive."
Yes, they are, and if the government thinks otherwise they can talk to the lawyer which I am also constitutionally guaranteed. According to the US Constitution the worst thing that can happen to me for being a terrorist sympathizer is I get banned from Twitter: as a private entity they don't have to follow the First Amendment.
Too obvious for plausible deniability. They went to a hell of a lot of trouble to sneak around the treaty; openly violating it might have actually forced the Federation to do its damn job.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Hell, a more apt analogy than Raqqa might be noting that there are terrorist cells in various Middle Eastern locations - so we'd better eliminate all life on Earth, just to be sure. We live on the same planet, so we must be criminals too, right?
Even running the risk of a mass slaughter in pursuit of a single man is ludicrous, and one of the greater flaws in DS9 was that Sisko was never brought up on charges for his actions.
My character Tsin'xing
Even if it would have been non-lethal anaesthezine the act would have been wrong. But you can figure that something is fishy when you start rationalizing something as "it was less deadly than..."
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needs a new thread it seems
Well, now I'm just upset. I used google for the spelling, the attempt is mine. Google threw up something that didn't make sense to me when I reverse translated it.
Well Sisko is a TNG era Human, he's just not very good at it. Archer is a 21st century Human in the body of a 22nd century one. When Sisko asked Bashir for Biomenetic gel, Bashir refused. If Archer had have asked, Phlox wouldn't have been able to give it to him quickly enough.
It's that bit with Bashir that I like, you wouldn't get that in TNG. Picard wouldn't even have asked Crusher because he wouldn't have entertained the idea. And it takes a toll on Sisko. His dictate in 'In the Pale Moonlight' to the computer is showing a man who's willing to sacrifice himself for the cause, which I believe pushes him further into his magic-space-jesus stuff that ultimately leads to him literally giving his life.
It's a simple fix, you either give them little jobs (like phone operator) that won't tax their brains or you dress them in really tight clothing so they at least serve a function on the bridge.
But if they're the lead character it's much harder, you have to hire a team of writers with really conflicting views on what her character is (plus they have to overcompensate for the drawback that she's female) and eventually make it look as though she's borderline hysterical or otherwise mad.
On the upside it did give us the two TNG Marquis plots which were really quite good and did serve Ro well. It's still a huge shame that Ro never made it onto VOY or DS9.
Not that far along, but directly after the bombing. We've had courtroom episodes of ST before, there was the Worf one that was slightly after the bombing (I think). Like I said, I don't mind either way if he was right to fire the missiles or not, I do dislike the disservive that was done to Sisko, Eddington, and the crew of DS9's characters for no accountability or even lip service to the fact that it's not part of most captains day to day activities.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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As jonsills said, what do you want to say about the new Trek show. You can't fill 30 pages with "I hope it's this and that era". But the thread serves a very important function - see the debates previous shows instill, although liked by many people the interpretation of events and the discussion about is is a significant part of it. The new show has to compete with that.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!