Was tweaking some builds earlier this evening and was reminded just how awkward the class restriction for DC/DHC are with the current metagame.
Beam arrays can be used on every class and in any slot while DC/DHC cannot be used by regular cruisers and science vessels bar some exceptions.
Would the first step to achieving balance between beams and cannons not be the removal of the class restrictions?
E.g. there are reputation sets which offer both a DHC and beam array, but how many people will actually opt for the DHC when along with the other advantages the BA can be equipped on every vessel?
A drawback would be that single cannons lose out even more.
Should in your opinion the class restrictions be lifted?
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
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No, that does nothing to make DHCs and the current cannon boff powers more useful. If you want cannons to be more useful then we need buffs like:
- Move CRF / CSV skills down one rank to match BFAW (Edit: this could be done without breaking things by changing the existing skills to +1 what they are now. So if you have CRF 2 slotted, it becomes CRF 3. CSV 3 becomes CSV 4.)
- Add a CFAW skill for better AOE and point defense
- Reduce the range penalty for DHCs
- Increase the firing angle of DHCs to 90 degrees
Any or all would help. Being able to equip 45-degree arc weapons on a slow turning cruiser will not.
Travel time for the damage packet is also an issue for cannons.
Instead of changing how cannon damage works I'd change beams to doing their damage over time while still initiating instantly. Cannons are basically a stored/charged blast so all their damage should be in one wallop. Beams are more continuous damage.
Beams, for some reason, deal their damage both instantly and in one packet.
I kinda agree with the need to reduce the penalty of the range on dual/dual heavy cannons, though i wonder if making it that as you get closer beyond a certain point with dual cannons you get a buff to your damage based on how close you are to the target. To me this would make sense that at long range your damage would fall off as your cannon fire would dissipate, while as you get close the time between impacts decreases an so the damage would as well.
Kinda would not mind if they made less of a cannon point defense ability, and more of a turret one that activated your turrets to prioritize small craft/torpedoes/mines over main targets, and that it is a toggled ability so it would remain active as long as you toggled it on yet this would mean that you would take a reduction in damage on larger targets if small-craft/torpedoes/mines were in the area. Just adding this into the cannon spread an rapid fire would work as well as a function that is either base-line, or is added to the higher ranks, though I could also see it come from a doff as well really.
Yes, yes it should.
I 'lol' when I see new ships being introduced saying 'can load cannons'. Like it's a selling feature somehow.
I do like the idea of almost having beam arrays/banks more like damage over time attacks, that might do more damage overall than cannons, but that it is done over the entire channeling time of the attacks against a target. This would make using a hazard emitter heal better to combat a beam array/bank attack, while engineering team would be better against a cannon barrage attack. I still think that keeping the restriction intact at least with dual heavy cannons would make sense, maybe expand it to dual banks being for the heavier carrier/science/cruiser type ships, while upping the firing arc on dual cannons to 90 degrees.
Exactly this. Why would I want to load cannons on anything in the current meta?
Cannon range is a big issue. The firing arc is a small one. Combine those with slow travel, lack of useful traits, less skill support (mainly at the lower levels of boff abilities), high power cost, overcapping works less, and the maximum target limit of CSV makes them almost totally undesirable. If they removed them from the game entirely I would not even notice.
How to fix them? I don't know. Single cannons should have a reason to even exist. Same goes for DCs. I suppose they have the 1 trick of more shots per volley if you can figure out which things proc per shot. They need more than that. DHCs are still fun but, like torpedoes (most builds), you are hurting your potential by even using them.
Cannons on Cruisers, aka "Battle Cruisers" are a "KDF thing"... Where's all the "whiny Feds trying to steal faction identity" posts?
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Because you're the one providing the comedy.
OP, I don't see how removing the DC/DHC restriction on what ships can use it helps Cannons in general. If Cannons as a whole are to be more useful, they need to:
- Alter the severe damage drop off with range
- Bring Tactical Cannon abilities down to the same ranks as Beam abilities, i.e. start at Ensign instead of Lieutenant
- Bring a sharp difference yet usefulness between Single Cannons, Dual Cannons, Dual Heavy Cannons. IMO, the previous 2 points will greatly help in general, but will not make SC and DC any better than they are now compared to DHCs. SC & DC need serious revamping.
I don't have a problem with how CRF, CSV function. I wouldn't mess with those until the basics of how Cannons play out are altered. Also, changes to improve cannon usefulness should not be hidden behind a trait or ability.
Think you answered your own question already. Ranged damage drop under a small arc is the problem.
I currently sit at ~80k DPS in ISA on one of my cannon builds. The only way to get those figures is to cannon scatter volley myself through the map getting as many targets in my arc as possible. Just too sad that the number of targets you can cover increases the more you keep your distance which then leads to the great damage loss. Adjusting the range damage drop with cannons would really mean fixing cannons and bringing them in line with other weapons in my opinion.
As far as your comment towards single cannons is concerned I agree partially. I use one single cannon in front besides three DHCs to complete a set piece. On the turn rate 20 ship the parse of this cannon is close to the same of a DHC on an average run leading me to believe that single cannons could even be more beneficial than duals on ships with a slower turn rate, so they have the right to be around.
In any case the #1 reason to use cannons over beams is fun! I would not trade it for anything in game.
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And they should do something about single cannons.
APO 1 should be a lt skill, APO 2 should be lt.com and APO 3 commander.
Surgical Strikes 1 should be an ensign skill, SS2 lt and SS3 lt.com. It doesn't really work with embassy consoles because it slows the shooting down, it's already nerfed and there's not a lot of ships that can even use it.
"Use Temporal Skills to NERF EVERYTHING before it happened!" -Unknown source.
That was way back when cannons were still good in the meta. Now, cannons on anything is a newbie thing, so all we can expect is the "why would you want to use cannons when beams are bettter" -posts.
Newbie doesn't do it justice IMO, but it certainly isn't mainstream build.
I enjoy using Single Cannons, torpedoes and DHC and manage to squeeze enough performance out for advanced and elite content. It's not as easy to use as a BFAW, but a lot more rewarding and fun.
I would actually place cannon builds in the expert category.
Cannon abilities are all higher ranks, therefore you'll really get the best out of them on high tac focused ships, i.e. escorts.
Beams are all lower levels to allow a wider range of ships access to them, but to counter that the cannons should still be the better choice for sheer damage output on a tactical ship. But they clearly are not as beams are being used almost everywhere with the exception of a tiny amount of us running torp or cannon boats.
I'd say it's much more complex than just the rank of the abilities that's the issue here:
No, no, no, no! We do not need a return to the days of "Escorts Online"! Your suggestions are way, way too extreme.
I wouldthink there might be more bonuses and penalities for this kind of thing, but not sure what else to put into it.I think that if you are going to want tp buff a weapon type to make it more useful on certain ships, than why not create something that actually buffs them on that ship specifically while also creating different playstyles for a different type of ship.
This sounds similar to the console ability of the Astika Battlecruiser.
Similar yes very much developed an conceived from the idea, though also developed alongside how you would use something with such a narrow firing arc on a ship that is slower turning than might be optimal for such firing arcs. I could see the federation actually taking such an old style of idea and instituting it into their ships to increase the viability of cannons in a altered state.
Pretty much this is in my opinion, the LARGEST issue with Cannons - the time-to-target is sooo slow, your shots end up hitting an already neutralized target. It's absurd.
Agreed 100% and salute.
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I like the introduction of some consoles that promote synergized weapon pairings. Mono builds are boring but trump diversified compositions. Players should never be punished for trying any build under the sun but what if there were synergies introduced that encouraged canon stylings?
No, don't think that would achieve more balanced usage between the weapons.
I am opposed to increased firing arcs or lower range drop off. These limitations create a gameplay that seperates dual cannons from beams. You're free to upgrade Cannons and Turrets in that regard, but not Dual (Heavy) Cannons.
Maybe all types of dual cannons should have an increased crit chance or crit severity or something similar to compensate. But it seems to me the real problem is that the BFAW buff is too good, at least with all the other tricks.
Well maybe looking into giving dual cannons a version of the rapid mod might work, which would either be the standard proccing a rapid fire buff, or just having a constant increased rate of fire would work an fit that these are supposed to be faster firing than dual heavies. This would be nice as it would push both as being for different styles of playstyles. In the case of dual heavies being more of a burst type with the innately slower firing rate of higher damage per burst, as well as having an innate/native 10% critical severity buff. While dual cannons would be more built for proccing abilities like plasma burns, which could be done with a much higher rate of fire either from a constant buff to the rate of fire, or being able to procc a rapid fire buff, but it could also be done with a native chance buff that doubles/triples the chance to procc of abilities like plasma burn.
Though i would also say we could use dual cannons having their firing arc increased to at least 75-90 degree from the 45 degree it currently is at, while keeping dual heavies at the 45 they are currently are at creating a fact that each can be used on different ships based on their turn rate. Single cannons right now are harder to buff as they are usable on all ship regardless of type, with a pretty good firing arc at 180 degrees, though i would ssay buffing the damage of the single cannons would be nice, while also increasing the projectile speed of all cannons would be a good way of making them more desirable than they currently are.
csv and crf should have less cd and the cannons should fire more quickly. the time between shots fired and the time used by these shots to reach a target is too long.