The KDF Dyson Command Science Destroyer - what's wrong with it? Is it not upgradeable?
I have said many times, that KDF doesn't have a true T5-u or T6 Science Ship. And yet in looking at the Dyson Command Science Destroyer, it seems to be very close.
It has (when not in Tactical Mode) -
1. +15 Aux Power
2. Subsystem targeting
3. Sensor Scan
4. Five Science consoles (plus 2x Eng and 3x Tac)
5. Secondary Deflector
6. Turn rate of 12 (same as the Vesta)
7. Ensign and Lt Cmdr Tactical stations, Lt Engineering station, Cmdr Science Station, and a Lt Universal station.
8. Not to mention a cloaking device and 4/3 weapons layout
So, once again, remind me why we don't like this thing?
Yes, it has that weird tactical mode, where you lose the 2ry deflector and the +15 Aux power, but gain +15 weapons power and some (expletive deleted) Proton cannon. But...what's wrong with this ship? What hidden flaw does it have that makes it so unpopular?
Granted it doesn't have the hangar the Vesta does, and the BOFF stations are slightly inferior, but...?
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The DSD had been a sore point for all the factions, even for the KDF & Roms which actually have a dearth of Science Vessels. It's a poisoned well from over 2 years ago.
The hard-mounted Proton DHC for today's purposes is horrible. It's not upgradable. Not only that, it can only be used in Destroyer mode and not in the default SCIENCE VESSEL configuration. So that 4 weapon slots up front is only of use when played in Destroyer mode. In default Science, you're still at 3 forward weapons and can't use the Proton DHC. Even worse, there's a bit more nuances in trying to buff Proton Damage.
In short, if I wanted an Escort, I'd fly an Escort. If I wanted a Science Vessel, I'd fly a Science Vessel. Extra features on a ship that can't be used in its primary role (Science Vessel) are of zero use to me. Naturally, if you went with Destroyer Mode, you can't use Sensor Analysis. The ship is loaded with gimmicks you can't use at any given time. That was highly annoying to me.
The Solanae Console Set (not the Reputation stuff) is an expensive venture if you want to complete it. I remember a lot of drama about this when the DSD C-Store ships released AFTER the 2014 Anniversary Event which had it's special Anniversary DSD also. Completing the set required:
Solanae Secondary Deflector from Anniversary (now Lobi Store) DSD
All 3 faction DSDs
If you didn't get the DSD from the Anniversary then it costs 500 Lobi. Then there's the Zen cost of the C-Store DSDs.
There's also the need for the Anniversary DSD if you wanted to complete the Solanae Space Set. The ship had the Warp / Singularity Core to complete it.
Another thing that was huge drama was that everyone wanted to be able to use faction style textures on these. The pearly white with purple skin of the DSDs of all factions was not liked at all. Cryptic would not implement traditional faction skins on the DSD until around the time after Delta Rising came out. By that time, it was too late. Nobody gave a TRIBBLE because nobody actually flies these things by any factions anymore. The appearance of the KDF version was not popular among the playerbase either with how it looked.
In terms of Science Vessel BOFF & Console layout, there's nothing wrong with it. But there's lots of baggage attached to these ships. Even the best version, the Romulan DSDs with their Battle Cloaks, are not flown anymore. I honestly feel if you got more veteran players to chime in on the DSDs, you're going to get some very heated answers.
As far as the Dyson Science Destroyers not being popular with any of the three factions, I certainly have noticed that. Only very seldom do I ever see one, of any faction.
But I'm still wondering if it might be the best KDF Sci ship option. If you just say %$&^ the Proton Cannon, think of it as a 3/3 weapons standard Sci Ship, don't ever put it in Tactical mode...
What other Sci Ship option would you choose for the KDF?
For the KDF?... Our choices are limited:
C-Store T5/T5U Veranus - Mediocre ENG, very poor TAC, very high SCI capability. This is for those players that know how to make super-science heavy ships work. For those that must have that extra TAC or ENG capability, this is a truly bad ship. It is a C-Store purchase so other KDF characters on the account can access it.
Lobi/C-Store DSDs - They are solid TAC-aligned, T5/T5U Science Vessels. But from previous discussions with others, players that I knew, the issue about completing the sets usually arose. Hence my long post about that. Most players will not have the money to spend 500 Lobi and whatever amount of Zen to get the 3 faction ships. I'm very wary about recommending this.
Outside these, we are left with Lobi / Lockbox Science Vessels like the Temporal Science Vessel, Palisade, Annorax (T6... good luck on that). A problem however is that Lobi/Lockbox ships are character unlocks and not account.
With all that in mind, what would I recommend?
If the player had the resources, I'd never recommend the KDF faction science vessels.
If all you want is a science vessel for a single KDF character, I'd recommend the Annorax. But yes, that is completely above the price range of most players. My next recommendations? Either the Temporal Science Vessel or Voth Palisade. Those will cost some resources to get. It's been a long time since I looked them up in the Exchange but TSV's have steadily remained expensive. They're good science vessels, highly flexible, and the stockpiles of them are not abundant because these are old Lockbox ships. Especially the TSV.
If the player needed a faction science vessel usable across the account, then that excludes Lobi/Lockbox science vessels. Then it comes down to the Veranus or some C-Store variant of the DSD. I would lean towards one of the DSD variants... ONLY ONE of them and not the pack, and forsake completing the Solanae Space and Console Sets. TRIBBLE Destroyer mode, ignore the Proton DHC. Just build and play it like the Fed Nova. If the player wants a super science heavy BOFF layout, Veranus is the only choice.
As for your question, the science version definitely looks par for science ships of its tier. As far as the console set completion goes for the C-Store versions, the set never seemed like it would make an improvement, especially not one large enough for the price they asked.
Honestly, if I ever make another Romulan or Klingon vassal species, I would definitely consider going science and using the anniversary dsd again for them. Perhaps this time maybe actually the science mode.
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
The KDF and Rom version have useless cloaks unless you're gonna go for a decloak alpha, but... that is an option.
My character Tsin'xing
Still unlocking other Rom ship traits, but brief test flights in a full protonic polaron dhc build did suggest its console can do some good damage exactly as I noticed when test-flying it in that mission. The rest of the consoles I strongly suspect to be outdated at this point so therefore gave up on the 3-pack. The expense of a lobi ship for some vague set bonus is out of the question.
The stats of the dysons show no faults if ignoring the tac mode. My goal is to use the ship as the designer intended, and see what comes out of it. So far I've had no problems, but it'll take some getting used to since it is loaded with a lot of abilities even without the full console set, and the challenge and learning curve is fun.
I still don't know if the experimental proton weapon enables on-board subsystem targeting when not modified by CRF or CSV. Anyone know for sure?
The Roms and KDF Dysons are great looking ships in my opinion, and the only C-Store science with battlecloak.
*correction, it seems only the Rom ones have battle cloak.
Been a while since I used the Exp.Proton Weapon. That thing has a long, buggy history, but it also can't use Subsystem Targeting.
I think the Dyson Destroyers are excellent science vessels. The Vesta was still better, but that is mostly for one reason: The Vesta has its hangar bay as an extra "gimmick", and while Hangar Bays are not very effective, you can alwas use them and they add a bit of help, whether you need it or not.
The Dyson Destroyer gimmick is the Destroyer Mode where you turn it into what's basically an Escort. But to really utilize that, you would need to build the ship more like an escort, but since you can't be an escort all the time, it's ineffecient.
Forget that Proton Cannon or the Destroyer Mode and fly it like a real Science Vessel, and you will have the best Science Vessel for KDF and Romulans at TIer 5(U) and the second-best for the Federation. You sacrifice a Lt.Cmdr Science ability for a Lt.Cmdr Tactical ability. That is not a bad deal, since you run quickly into shared cooldown with science offensive powers, and buffs like attack pattern omega or beta also help you with your science attack powers (damage resistance debuffs or damage strenght buffs benefit any source of damage). And you want a Tactical Team and a Torpedo Spread anyway on typical science builds these days.
I have the impression that most people vastly underestimate the Dyson Destroyers because they think that they must use the Destroyer Mode or are wasting potential. You aren't if you don't use it!
Even if you play the ship mostly like a science vessel, you could try using Destroyer MOde - while your Cmdr Science Power is on cooldown, you can switch to destroyer mode to pop a strong tactical buff. It's not much help, since you want to go back to science mode quickly, but it certainly doesn't hurt. But you don't need to do that either.
The Romulan ones are also among the best looking Romulan vessels IMO.
I did experiment with one back when it first came out but I didn't think it was all that great (since I switched to it from my Vesta). However, on my science romulan I went back to it and it was a blast. Strapped cannons front and an omni-beam back to utilize subsystem targeting and it was actually fun to switch modes every now and then. Of course during STFs I would mostly stay in science but whenever I wanted to have a little fun, I would switch to tactical and pop an APO3.
The proton cannon definitely won't be up to snuff nowadays and it's pointless to try and boost its damage but from a pure fun perspective, it's still pretty sweet watching your ship convert to tactical mode.
Nope...just CRF/CSV and BO/FaW...it has no effect from other weapon buffs, and then you need the 2 piece or 3 piece to cover all of those 4.
The Dyson Destroyer set is definitely not a bad set, but it's not really absolutely neccessary. (I think it's about as good as the Vesta set, and in fact several of the abilities are very similar).
But if you can't afford the 3-pack, pick a science or tactical variant.
There are nowadays a lot of other good sets and a lot of good consoles from reputations or fleet gear that you really have to think hard whether you want t pick the set of a ship, too.
The Dysons are perfectly capable of doing the science torpedo boat/gravity well thing, and arguably better at it then any other Tier 5 C-Store Vessel other than the Vesta.
I really would not recommend Lobi or Lockbox ships - they are only available to that one character, and they are costly, especalyl if you can only get a Tier 5 one. The Palisade is a good T5 Science Vessel, of course.
For all intents and purposes they are good science ships and a T6 version would be extremely good.
I ran it with DHCs for a while, but gave it up for a better targeting arc. The Proton cannon are just kinda there now if I manage to get the nose pointed in the right direction. The Dysons are very flexible ships that have some rather large idiosyncracies you have to work with and that doesn't necessarily appeal to everyone.
Also, this is really just an added bonus, but even when in tactical mode, they can close rifts fast like other science ships in the Mirror Invasion.
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
Maybe bypass shields or something.
The only Science Vessels adept in the "Cloak & Poke" style of combat are Battle Cloak capable ships. The Standard Cloak ones can only do that at the onset of combat. But Battle Cloak capable can do that whenever their cloak is off CD and when their powers are lined up to spike. Of course, "Cloak & Poke" heavily negates the long term effects of a full stack of Sensor Analysis. But with the right traits, the damage bonus coming out of cloaks is substantial and can be made to last long for Romulan Republic characters, as well as having short cooldowns. +45% decloak damage bonus lasting for 23 seconds on a 12 second cloak cooldown without the need to "stack" effects like Sensor Analysis is stronk.
The nice thing on relying on Battle Cloak for the damage bonus than Sensor Analysis is that there are portions in the game where NPCs do things like Photonic Shockwave to break lock and forcing you to retarget Sensor Analysis and rebuild the stack from zero. Decloaking damage bonus doesn't care about that.
Going off the top of my head, the only Battle Cloak capable Science Vessels are almost exclusively Romulan:
T5 Romulan Ha'nom
T5 Romulan Mirror Ha'nom (not upgradable)
T5 Romulan DSDs (Lobi & C-Store 3 pack)
T5 Voth Palisade (Lockbox)
Voth Palisade technically can be made Standard and even Battle Cloak capable. However, it requires 2 and 3 piece Voth ship console set from the array of Voth ships: Palisade, Bastion, Bulwark. The Bulwark is completely out of the reach of 99% of the playerbase, so if you see a Voth Palisade battle cloaking, take a moment and savor it. Because unless you know that player, that will probably be the only time you'll ever see it happening.
The whole Proton damage aspect was handled poorly. Only 2 true Proton Weapons in the game and not even a full arsenal of weapon types.
For me, the key is to have Gravity Well 3 as the opening gambit and then immediately switch to Tac mode to pound on my ensnared opponent. (I have a similar tactic on one of my Vestas with the Phaser Lance, Aux Cannon Rapid Fire, and Tachyon Beam, which can rip most shields down to hull very quickly.)
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I think most of what killed the Proton weps was the horrible half-assed consoles. You got a half-assed Proton damage boost and a half-assed something-else boost. Obviously an idea devised by someone who doesn't bother to actually play the game, or they would know that min-maxing is everything, and half measures are scorned and despised.
My character Tsin'xing
Surgical Strikes III? What ship?
Callin' bull. I fly the thing as a Tet/Proton build. It's a great shield melter, throw on the Dyson ordinance set and the Grav Torpedos can put on a show!
1 guy flying a DSD out of the plethora of all the other Science Vessels out there does not make my statement wrong.
FACT: DSDs are a rarely seen sight in this game, regardless of faction. Even the Science Vessel starved KDF & Roms hardly use these things.
Even when using Protonic Polaron, they're still pretty terrible, IMO. The damage split of those Dyson Rep TAC Consoles takes damage away from the primary energy weapon damage type for a slight boost to Proton damage, some of which is proc / RNG based, depending on the weaponry. On top of that, they boost Accuracy, which isn't exactly needed. I would be loathe to trade away a Spire TAC Console for a Dyson Rep TAC Console.
However, IIRC from old game knowledge, the 2 Proton Weapons should still get their full boost with +Beam / +Cannon boosts. For the appropriate weapon type of course, and unless Cryptic changed something since I last used Proton / Protonic Polaron.
Agreed. Outside the original, general damage types like Phaser, Plasma, Antiproton, etc, Proton damage was the first chance for Cryptic to really expand on things. But everything about it was half-assed.
The half-assed Dyson TAC Consoles.
The implementation of only 2 true Proton damage weapons.
Proton Weaponry died a stillborn death.
My character Tsin'xing
And my KDF sci flies one when she's not levelling a ship for a trait. Yeah, the Scimitard "max your deeps and that's the only important part of the game" crowd don't like it, but even "suboptimally buffed", protonic polarons can still dish out damage, I was soloing normal gates in Mirror Incursion in the KDF DSD like I would in my Pathfinder...
Granted, I was "lucky" enough to grab the anniversary version on the anniversary, and I snared the full-on set because I wanted it for the Rommies and KDF, and if I was spending for 2 full sets, might as well go "buy two get one free" rather then get them solo...
So, if you're looking to have fun, DSD's a great Sci ship, even if it's not the most popular ship of the game...
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