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[VIDEO] The Wizards of STO - Department of Kinetic Firepower (PG-13)

Ministère de la Puissance de feu Cinétique
in conjunction with
DPS AFTER DARK
.....

... proudly present to you, (after the post nerf & new bugs against torpedoes) ...

Do You Want To Kill A SnowFlake
(The 34 Seconds Edition)

https://youtu.be/KOMQTJ0z6Ws
@Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
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Comments

  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    You stole all their DPS. That's rare coming from a torp boat. :p
  • nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    Can you post your build. I'm curious to know what you've got skill and gear wise.
    Tza0PEl.png
  • misterferengi#8959 misterferengi Member Posts: 486 Arc User
    Very well done, stay tuned for the incoming nerf torpedo thread :), however killing the Entity that quick is actually a penalty if farming marks, not allowing the Entity to let off its 2 AP blast's will register those 2 optionals as failures and thus reduce mark payout.
  • burstorionburstorion Member Posts: 1,750 Arc User
    Torpedoes are that nasty when used right...(you should try them in a Kor from decloak)

    Of course, it -is- versus the CE, who is just a big bag of kinetic friendly hitpoints but its nice to see you guys use something more than the usual faw bore​​
  • This content has been removed.
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    nikephorus wrote: »
    Can you post your build. I'm curious to know what you've got skill and gear wise.

    He's basically chaining HYs using CF and Torpedo Barrage to keep the big ones flying. Only got to watch this on my mobile phone though so I couldn't really see which torps he was using for this run.

    That's the fun thing about torps though, HY and TS are both useful depending on the situation. It isn't all about spamming AOEs.
  • tempusmagustempusmagus Member Posts: 107 Arc User
    I know he tends to like Bio and Temporal torps when he uses HY, but not for sure if he has a different preference in CCA.
  • commanderkassycommanderkassy Member Posts: 1,005 Arc User
    Ministère de la Puissance de feu Cinétique
    in conjunction with
    DPS AFTER DARK
    .....

    ... proudly present to you, (after the post nerf & new bugs against torpedoes) ...

    Do You Want To Kill A SnowFlake
    (The 34 Seconds Edition)

    https://youtu.be/KOMQTJ0z6Ws

    Yes, you're awesome blah blah blah. What's the point of this?
    ♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
    It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    edited December 2015
    I know he tends to like Bio and Temporal torps when he uses HY, but not for sure if he has a different preference in CCA.

    Was my typical Manticore loadout:

    2pc Terran Ordinance - Torp + Console
    2pc Delta Ordinance - Torp + Console
    3pc Protonic Arsenal
    2p Counter Command - Torp + Turrets (yes, plural)
    5x +Torp Tac Consoles (4 Exploiters 1 Locator)

    2pc Iconian - Core + Shield
    2pc AMACO - Engine + Deflector
    Combined 3 hot restarts, light defenses for shields, Cat 1 torp boost


    As much critD as you can squeeze out of the remaining console slots
    KLW contribution for that run - 26,040 DAMAGE for 796.33 DPS - ZERO crits over 30 procs.

    Out of the 4.4M damage done to the Entity (top 3 damage dealers):

    2.351M - @Odenknight
    0.833M - @TeacherKirby (her torp boat)
    0.261M - @Zerg539

    Terran Torpedo was fired as a filler when target was above 50%, and as a priority if it was the only target under 50%. EBM was used when there were other weaker targets in the area. Terran Torpedo was swapped to primary sub 25% (IF it actually fired.).
    Post edited by darkknightucf on
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    CCA152K.jpg
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    Ministère de la Puissance de feu Cinétique
    in conjunction with
    DPS AFTER DARK
    .....

    ... proudly present to you, (after the post nerf & new bugs against torpedoes) ...

    Do You Want To Kill A SnowFlake
    (The 34 Seconds Edition)

    https://youtu.be/KOMQTJ0z6Ws

    Yes, you're awesome blah blah blah. What's the point of this?

    Counter-trolling.
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    Very well done, stay tuned for the incoming nerf torpedo thread :), however killing the Entity that quick is actually a penalty if farming marks, not allowing the Entity to let off its 2 AP blast's will register those 2 optionals as failures and thus reduce mark payout.

    True, but we weren't in it for the marks. You did offer me an avenue to discuss the logic of the code to see if you are eligible for bonus marks; the entire team is penalized for doing well. You technically survive all wave attacks while the Entity exists, and yet, because the second wave doesn't go off, the check can't go past the second, "survive the wave", before it checks to see if the Entity is dead before the time limit. It just never makes it there.....

    BTW, love your vid in your sig ;)
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    burstorion wrote: »
    Torpedoes are that nasty when used right...(you should try them in a Kor from decloak)

    Of course, it -is- versus the CE, who is just a big bag of kinetic friendly hitpoints but its nice to see you guys use something more than the usual faw bore​​

    Working on some EBC builds slowly. EBC piloting is a whole new world, and requires a different mentality (much more of a sniper vs the street fighter piloting I use).

    CE is fun, but wait until you see the next vid ;) They said it couldn't be done, they even said months ago that I was stupid for even trying, yet the results have the detractors baffled to this very day.....
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • misterferengi#8959 misterferengi Member Posts: 486 Arc User
    Very well done, stay tuned for the incoming nerf torpedo thread :), however killing the Entity that quick is actually a penalty if farming marks, not allowing the Entity to let off its 2 AP blast's will register those 2 optionals as failures and thus reduce mark payout.

    True, but we weren't in it for the marks. You did offer me an avenue to discuss the logic of the code to see if you are eligible for bonus marks; the entire team is penalized for doing well. You technically survive all wave attacks while the Entity exists, and yet, because the second wave doesn't go off, the check can't go past the second, "survive the wave", before it checks to see if the Entity is dead before the time limit. It just never makes it there.....

    BTW, love your vid in your sig ;)

    If thats something that can be done and rewards are rightly rewarded for such speed runs then that would be great. Must make sure to be in as many runs you make during the next CE Event. :)

    Thanks i was looking for some funny christmas songs and Weird Al didn't let me down.
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  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    beameddown wrote: »
    Out of the 4.4M damage done to the Entity (top 3 damage dealers):

    2.351M - @Odenknight
    0.833M - @TeacherKirby (her torp boat)
    0.261M - @Zerg539

    hey odin, in that run then was most my damage towards all the other ships then? still learning what all these parse numbers are and whats counted and whats not:)

    Yea, you were nailing a ton of Tholians there. I think 2 of my 400K+ crits on Tholians was because you dropped the shields and 1/2 killed them.

    From SCM:

    click- Player Combat Analysis Report
    select your name from the top pull-down menu.
    underneath your name, select "DMG - To" from that pull-down
    look at all the damage you did to the targets. |=)
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    Nice to see some kinetic killing for a change.

    So i'm guessing you just have the Terran torp primarily for the 2pc set as i've seen reports (and experienced it) that something ain't quite right with it? Doesn't seem to be proc'ing the extra damage for low heath targets correctly when used with spread and possibly HY or maybe i'm missing something?

    The EBM torp is still the best HY torp in my view, I never get tired of seeing hits well above 200K from that beast. It's like dropping a nuke on something.
    SulMatuul.png
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Nice to see some kinetic killing for a change.

    So i'm guessing you just have the Terran torp primarily for the 2pc set as i've seen reports (and experienced it) that something ain't quite right with it? Doesn't seem to be proc'ing the extra damage for low heath targets correctly when used with spread and possibly HY or maybe i'm missing something?

    The EBM torp is still the best HY torp in my view, I never get tired of seeing hits well above 200K from that beast. It's like dropping a nuke on something.

    Concerning the Terran Torp: It's the same thing that I outlined on the chart to show the various damage yields for Salvo Torps w/ fixed low critH and variable critD (sounds like an undergrad research paper... lol!). In here, I demonstrate how a lower rank of the salvo shots (HY or TS) can out-perform the higher ranks of the same power.

    A quick and dirty way to "fix" this would be that if any of the torps roll a crit on launch, they all crit. This, though, assumes that the hit/miss and crit/no-crit rolls are performed upon launch (most MMO systems that I have had the honor of seeing under the hood operate like this).

    Look at the tab that contains the graph. For the given conditions, the Terran Torpedo amplifies the disparity when the target is below 50% health.

    Calling upon the Chief Engineer, @jarvisandalfred to re-re-visit this ;)

    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • jarvisandalfredjarvisandalfred Member Posts: 1,549 Bug Hunter
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Nice to see some kinetic killing for a change.

    So i'm guessing you just have the Terran torp primarily for the 2pc set as i've seen reports (and experienced it) that something ain't quite right with it? Doesn't seem to be proc'ing the extra damage for low heath targets correctly when used with spread and possibly HY or maybe i'm missing something?

    The EBM torp is still the best HY torp in my view, I never get tired of seeing hits well above 200K from that beast. It's like dropping a nuke on something.

    Concerning the Terran Torp: It's the same thing that I outlined on the chart to show the various damage yields for Salvo Torps w/ fixed low critH and variable critD (sounds like an undergrad research paper... lol!). In here, I demonstrate how a lower rank of the salvo shots (HY or TS) can out-perform the higher ranks of the same power.

    A quick and dirty way to "fix" this would be that if any of the torps roll a crit on launch, they all crit. This, though, assumes that the hit/miss and crit/no-crit rolls are performed upon launch (most MMO systems that I have had the honor of seeing under the hood operate like this).

    Look at the tab that contains the graph. For the given conditions, the Terran Torpedo amplifies the disparity when the target is below 50% health.

    Calling upon the Chief Engineer, @jarvisandalfred to re-re-visit this ;)

    As far as I know, nothing's really changed since the last time we talked THY's.

    Relevant info from then:

    THY1 generally fires fewer shots of slightly higher damage than THY3. If nothing crits, THY3>THY1, if everything crits, THY3>THY1. If all you care about is dps, THY3 averages higher than THY1.

    But, if you look at the highest spike you can achieve relatively consistently, THY1 actually outperforms THY3 for some weapons at a given crit severity. For most torps, THY1 is 2 shots, THY3 is 4. At a high enough critical severity, one shot critting in THY1 makes the total THY1 better than the total THY3 where one torp crits.

    THY1 will get no crit 56.25% of the time, one crit 37.5% of the time, and two crits 6.25% of the time.
    THY3 gets no crits 31.6% of the time, one crit 42% of the time, two crits 21% of the time, three crits 4.6% of the time, and 4 crits .4% of the time.

    Most of the time, THY3>THY1. But, at say 300%+ crit severity, the following happens:
    THY1 with one crit>THY3 with one crit, and THY1 with 2 crits>THY3 with two crits.
    So the probability of THY1 hitting harder than THY3 is the combined probability of a THY1 getting one crit and THY3 getting one or less crits, plus the probability of a THY1 getting two crits and THY3 getting two or less crits. Which happens to be 33.6% of the time at 25% crit chance.

    At that ~300% crit severity:
    • 10% CrtH: THY1 hits harder 18% of the time
    • 20% CrtH: THY1 hits harder 30% of the time
    • 30% CrtH: THY1 hits harder 36% of the time
    • 40% CrtH: THY1 hits harder 36% of the time
    • 50% CrtH: THY1 hits harder 33% of the time
    • 60% CrtH: THY1 hits harder 27% of the time

    This isn't well reflected by DPS parsers for two reasons:
    • You fire many more THY1's than THY3's
    • Your max single one-hit should be a torpedo of the THY1 every time (because the THY3 fires lower damage torpedoes for a net of more damage)

    But for most shots, THY3>THY1.

    For some hits, FAW1 will show harder than FAW3 between damage variance and critical hits, but that doesn't change the overall mechanic of FAW3 being more dps than FAW1. It's the same concept here, just portrayed differently.
    SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci

    SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci

    Tacs are overrated.

    Game's best wiki

    Build questions? Look here!
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  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    deokkent wrote: »
    How long does it take to set up the team?

    Probably not too long since that's his regular playing group. Maybe a few minutes tops... Maybe it was even done on a whim. I lucked out and got to run with @darkknightucf last night. Always amazing to run with him. :smile:
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    Maybe Cryptic should actually make High Yield Torpedoes work like Beam Overload and be an auto-crit? (which would require lowering the base damage buff). Though.. I am not fully a fan of this approach, it devalues crit-chance improvements.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    Thanks for the info guys.

    So would you say there is a need to carefully decide what rank of HY to slot depending on your current crth & crtd?

    If that is the case it opens up some interesting uses for boff slots if it's no longer worth slotting high ranking powers in certain situations.
    SulMatuul.png
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Thanks for the info guys.

    So would you say there is a need to carefully decide what rank of HY to slot depending on your current crth & crtd?

    If that is the case it opens up some interesting uses for boff slots if it's no longer worth slotting high ranking powers in certain situations.

    Yes, I would say that, especially if you and/or your wingmate are using Concentrate Firepower (but not CF1). It's to the point now where I am altering my build somewhat for CCA to take advantage of this. Now, it's just a matter of practicing.

    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    Cool.

    I know it's asking a lot but you guys know the maths better than anyone else.
    Would it be possible to create some sort of guide or graph to help people work out their optimal version?
    Not really sure what I'm asking for to be honest but as crit chance and damage are so variable I'd like to think there's possibly some sort or roughly linear relationship where you could work out an optimal set of abilities?

    Obviulously low crit chance you probably want HY3 as the more torps is better. But once you start getting towards +20% I'm guessing lower ranks start to become more useful because base damage per torp is higher?
    SulMatuul.png
  • dsarisdsaris Member Posts: 384 Arc User
    I'm regularly getting 30-50k photon hits... and have seen as high as 100k. That's just with regular fire, not spread or HY. Voth rep set + terran rep set + command specialization tree leads to some very interesting results.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Cool.

    I know it's asking a lot but you guys know the maths better than anyone else.
    Would it be possible to create some sort of guide or graph to help people work out their optimal version?
    Not really sure what I'm asking for to be honest but as crit chance and damage are so variable I'd like to think there's possibly some sort or roughly linear relationship where you could work out an optimal set of abilities?

    Obviulously low crit chance you probably want HY3 as the more torps is better. But once you start getting towards +20% I'm guessing lower ranks start to become more useful because base damage per torp is higher?

    It seems to me it's mostly a corner case now that you need to optimize your burst damage.
    Is there any reason you need to optimize for burst damage? If you're in PvE, I can't think of a reason.
    In PvP, it might be worth optimizing for, since players can pop a lot of passive and active heals - a dead enemy can't heal, an enemy at 2.5 % health still can.
    All 3 skills will buff your DPS, and the higher rank ones will boost it more than the lower ranked ones.

    So you really need a target that has a way to "undo" previous damage on a significant scale before you even need to worry about it - and HYT might end the wrong choice for the objective, since crits are generally random.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    Is there any reason you need to optimize for burst damage? If you're in PvE, I can't think of a reason.

    Speaking for myself, because of beams.

    Beams are instant (or almost instant) hits while torps have travel time. When/if they land, I want them to hit as hard as possible. Optimizing for burst/spike damage is one way to do that.
  • burstorionburstorion Member Posts: 1,750 Arc User
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Thanks for the info guys.

    So would you say there is a need to carefully decide what rank of HY to slot depending on your current crth & crtd?

    If that is the case it opens up some interesting uses for boff slots if it's no longer worth slotting high ranking powers in certain situations.

    Yes, I would say that, especially if you and/or your wingmate are using Concentrate Firepower (but not CF1). It's to the point now where I am altering my build somewhat for CCA to take advantage of this. Now, it's just a matter of practicing.

    IMO, one of the best ships (non lobi) for high yield torping is either the kobali ship (Samsar) or the Command ships - both utilise the command seating, and can carry decently ranked copies of concentrate firepower, along with other useful things like beta, ect and some science for resonance beam, ect

    To be honest though, if you want to get the best out of torps in cca (as in big numbers and many explosions, as opposed to just vaping the CE from orbit), you are better off going with spreads and (ab)using the terran rep secondary torp launchers to ramp up the damage and adding consoles to add aoe (I don't have kemo, but you likely do)

    On a high partgen ship, isometric charge is still extremely powerful and the ce, as far as I can tell has near to no resistance to it​​
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    e30ernest wrote: »
    Is there any reason you need to optimize for burst damage? If you're in PvE, I can't think of a reason.

    Speaking for myself, because of beams.

    Beams are instant (or almost instant) hits while torps have travel time. When/if they land, I want them to hit as hard as possible. Optimizing for burst/spike damage is one way to do that.

    This was my thinking exactly!

    Torps (and cannons) always lag behind beam users in most cases because of travel time and the fact beam whales can potentially melt the whole map in the time it takes my first volley to land.
    I can whack out a huge amount of DPS in a torp boat but if the target's already dead it's as good as doing 0 DPS. A good example of this is in that final fight in the Badlands battlezone, beam cruisers can park up and kill everything, anything with a small arc like cannons or torps is next to useless.

    So I want as much damage in that opening shot as possible and looking at this thread that means a careful balancing act between which versions give the optimal damage. It's not just a case of pick the biggest rank and spam the ability all day long, there's a lot more planning needs to go into a torp build than just doing that.
    SulMatuul.png
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