test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Cultural Contamination

1235789

Comments

  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    No, he meant "burn". Usually, though, a "sick burn" has to be called by a third party, otherwise it comes across as bragging.

    And while I'm not going to subject myself to that movie again (twice was twice too many, in my opinion), I certainly saw nothing to suggest that the Ba'ku were anything more than a society of lotus-eaters, luddites rejecting technology because it jest ain't natural. Their little idyll was made possible only by the fact that they were hoarding this energy supply of theirs, refusing to share with anyone (to the point they couldn't even coexist on the same planet as their rebellious children. A planet's a pretty doggone big place, you know.) The Son'a we saw weren't a lot better, would-be imperials who lacked the personal energy to actually build an empire so looked to swipe one instead. Personally, I thought the winning move here would have been to remove all Federation ships and outposts from the entire region and let them settle matters between themselves.

    On a side note, the characterization of certain people as "benefit monkeys" is frankly offensive. Perhaps matters are different in the UK, but the only place I've ever encountered poor people who were content to simply sit on their laurels and collect public benefits were in anecdotes related by right-wingers ranting about how terrible poor people are. Are you under the impression that welfare and food stamps provide anywhere near enough to live comfortably? If that were the case, there wouldn't be anyone willing to work for the current pitiful Federal minimum wage in the States. (And I've been there. I worked as a janitor in a Dairy Queen for three months in order to get out of that.)​​
    In the UK, receiving benefits often opens up gateways to other benefits. For example, someone on JobSeeker's Allowance may not get enough in terms of JSA to live well on, but they may then also receive housing benefit towards rent, child support, etc, which soon starts to add up to being equivalent to an average-paid job -- enough to live reasonably on, but not enough to really save to better ones-self... With recent shifts in policy, such as more zero-hour contracts, which job seekers are being 'encouraged' to take, there is less option for people to refuse work. However, people who have children, are somewhat immune to the sanctions which can be imposed, ie "If you stop my benefits, my kids go hungry..." So yeah, not exactly living on easy street, but for some, who are able to milk and manipulate the system, certainly not 'austerity' living... Again, if people have found the comment offensive, I'm sorry they feel that way.
  • dalolorndalolorn Member Posts: 3,655 Arc User
    Established fact:
    The Ba'ku were not indigenous to the planet, and had arrived there from somewhere else, in space ships. Are we agreed thus far?

    Undisputable.
    Conjecture:
    When 'the young people left to follow the ways of the off-landers', they did so in the ships which had delivered them to the planet.

    Highly probable.
    Is it implausible to consider that the Ba'ku 'drove the young people away' figuratively, if not literally?

    Literally, in fact - after the Son'a attempted to take control of the village, the Ba'ku exiled them. (Don't remember the movie well enough, but that's Memory Alpha's take on the situation.)
    Is it implausible to consider (given the Son'a relationship with the Dominion) that the Son'a have greater facilities and resources to those seen in Insurrection?

    Is it implausible to consider (considering that they conquered two entire races) that the Son'a maintain those facilities and resources, with greater numbers than those seen in Insurrection?

    Not by a long shot, no. Among other things, there is the fact that they have had at least half a century to build up. (Also, apparently Insurrection does in fact take place during the Dominion War. On the other hand, MA does acknowledge that there is a certain lack of conclusive data on the matter.)
    Established fact:
    The Ba'ku were disingenuous about their existence, their relationship and the Fountain of Youth.

    Not so established, actually. True, they did not immediately reveal the 'Fountain of Youth' part. However, from what little I do remember, it seemed that the Ba'ku genuinely didn't know any of what happened to the Son'a until Picard exposed them as ex-Ba'ku. Convenient, perhaps, but it does not point in either direction.

    While the claim that the Ba'ku bear no ill will towards the Son'a is conjecture (despite the fact that they let them stay post-Insurrection, even if you don't take Hidden Evil into account), the same can be said of the 'evil Ba'ku' theory.


    Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.p3OEBPD6HU3QI.jpg
  • oldravenman3025oldravenman3025 Member Posts: 1,892 Arc User
    Q`1Q
    In the 23rd Century, the UFP routinely contacted pre-warp societies. As long as there was no contamination, and regulations followed, it was kosher. The whole "gotta have warp drive" drivel came along later in the franchise.

    A good example of the Federation deliberately opening relations with pre-spaceflight societies happens in "Friday's Child"--the Federation wants the rights to mine for Topaline, and deals with the leaders of the tribe that claims the land in question, but then must stop a coup d'etat in order to keep the deal alive.



    Not to mention the Organians (before they revealed their true selves), the Hill People on Neural, Planet 892-IV, etc.



  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    Q`1Q
    In the 23rd Century, the UFP routinely contacted pre-warp societies. As long as there was no contamination, and regulations followed, it was kosher. The whole "gotta have warp drive" drivel came along later in the franchise.
    A good example of the Federation deliberately opening relations with pre-spaceflight societies happens in "Friday's Child"--the Federation wants the rights to mine for Topaline, and deals with the leaders of the tribe that claims the land in question, but then must stop a coup d'etat in order to keep the deal alive.
    Not to mention the Organians (before they revealed their true selves), the Hill People on Neural, Planet 892-IV, etc.
    Some of those were motivated by a desire to prevent the Klingons from taking over those worlds. The TOS Klingon approach to pre-warp civs was to explain to them why they should be servants of the empire, with disruptors if needed.
    jonsills wrote: »
    And while I'm not going to subject myself to that movie again (twice was twice too many, in my opinion), I certainly saw nothing to suggest that the Ba'ku were anything more than a society of lotus-eaters, luddites rejecting technology because it jest ain't natural. Their little idyll was made possible only by the fact that they were hoarding this energy supply of theirs, refusing to share with anyone (to the point they couldn't even coexist on the same planet as their rebellious children. A planet's a pretty doggone big place, you know.)
    I don't remember exactly why the Son'a left the planet, but I also don't remember anyone even ASKING the Ba'ku if they were willing to share. The duck blind was established as a way of avoiding first contact. Picard was the first Federation representative to actually talk to the Ba'ku leaders.
    What are you talking about?
    The times you've referenced the head-canon species in your avatar during discussion of canon species and other topics other than 'discuss your head-canon species'.
    My avatar isn't a head-canon species, it's a picture from a Yugioh card. so yeah, I still have no idea what you're talking about. Also, if I was to discuss a race I made up, I wouldn't presume to pretend the race was canon.
    No, you are going FAR beyond an alternate interpretation. You are using personal biases to distort what was said in the movie to be the opposite of what it actually was.
    I disagree. The points I have made, are all supported by in-verse material, both from the movie itself, and the DS-9 episode (which I don't immediately recall) where the Son'a are apparently mentioned as Dominion allies/facilitators. Their interaction with the Dominion, implies significantly greater numbers, capabilities and facilities, than the 'scorned nomads' which Insurrection introduced and portrayed them as before the Big Reveal...
    I was specifically referring to your "evil Ba'ku" idea, which you have yet to support. the movie actually never had any information as to the number of the Son'a.
    The Ba'ku were disingenuous about their existence, their relationship and the Fountain of Youth.
    In what way? No one asked the Ba'ku about anything prior to the Son'a arriving. Ru'afo lied to the Federation about whether the Ba'ku were a pre-warp civ. Thus the Feds avoided talking to them entirely. Also, as Dalolorn pointed out, the Ba'ku didn't even know who the Son'a were.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    dalolorn wrote: »
    Not so established, actually. True, they did not immediately reveal the 'Fountain of Youth' part. However, from what little I do remember, it seemed that the Ba'ku genuinely didn't know any of what happened to the Son'a until Picard exposed them as ex-Ba'ku. Convenient, perhaps, but it does not point in either direction.

    While the claim that the Ba'ku bear no ill will towards the Son'a is conjecture (despite the fact that they let them stay post-Insurrection, even if you don't take Hidden Evil into account), the same can be said of the 'evil Ba'ku' theory.
    True, but the fact that they exiled them, reinforces that they didn't deal well with the situation, and due to weak writing, are not as blameless as the suggestion the plot suggested...
  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    My avatar isn't a head-canon species, it's a picture from a Yugioh card. so yeah, I still have no idea what you're talking about. Also, if I was to discuss a race I made up, I wouldn't presume to pretend the race was canon.
    Sorry, I meant Tsin'xing, the character inyour signature, which I suspect you actually know that, and are just trying to be pedantic to avoid the point. Oh there's no 'if' you were to discuss the race, you have done so several times, referencing skin color, wing posession, social attitudes etc, so don't try to be disingenuous. Also, I never said that you did 'pretend the race was canon', just that you have raised them as a topic within discussions about other canon races.

    In what way? No one asked the Ba'ku about anything prior to the Son'a arriving. Ru'afo lied to the Federation about whether the Ba'ku were a pre-warp civ. Thus the Feds avoided talking to them entirely. Also, as Dalolorn pointed out, the Ba'ku didn't even know who the Son'a were.
    The only revealing the truth about their existence and 'society' when Picard realised that he was being rejuvinated by the metaphasic radiation. I believe 'lie of ommission' is the formal term. Did Ru'afo lie to the Federation about wether the Ba'ku were pre-warp? Oh he certainly was not entirely honest, but did he actually lie about that? I forget if that was part of the reason Admiral Dougherty (or even if Picard said that to Dougherty) said the PD didn't apply, or if it was simply because the Ba'ku were not indigenous to the planet... I agree, the Ba'ku didn't know who they were until told, but equally, neither were they open about the skeletons in their historical past... Would you care to address the facts and conjectures I addressed to you upthread, which deal with the premise of the Son'a? Or to touch back on the idea that if the situation between the Ba'ku and the Son'a would count as an 'internal issue' which the PD prevents Starfleet from acting in, then the same could be said of the Valakians and Menk? To restate, I believe that as the Valakians were actively seeking help, they should have been given it... Or even my thought that had The Drumhead focussed on a prime character rather than Simon Tarses, it would likely have been an even more engaging episode, and one which could have added some excellent depths to an established character, rather than having the opportunity 'wasted' on a never-seen-again nobody?
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    My avatar isn't a head-canon species, it's a picture from a Yugioh card. so yeah, I still have no idea what you're talking about. Also, if I was to discuss a race I made up, I wouldn't presume to pretend the race was canon.
    Sorry, I meant Tsin'xing, the character inyour signature, which I suspect you actually know that, and are just trying to be pedantic to avoid the point. Oh there's no 'if' you were to discuss the race, you have done so several times, referencing skin color, wing posession, social attitudes etc, so don't try to be disingenuous. Also, I never said that you did 'pretend the race was canon', just that you have raised them as a topic within discussions about other canon races.
    so you're talking about something utterly irrelevant. Ok then, duly ignored.
    In what way? No one asked the Ba'ku about anything prior to the Son'a arriving. Ru'afo lied to the Federation about whether the Ba'ku were a pre-warp civ. Thus the Feds avoided talking to them entirely. Also, as Dalolorn pointed out, the Ba'ku didn't even know who the Son'a were.
    The only revealing the truth about their existence and 'society' when Picard realised that he was being rejuvinated by the metaphasic radiation. I believe 'lie of ommission' is the formal term.
    that only applies IF you had reason to discuss it. Prior to Picard talking with Anij, no one from the Federation had bothered to talk to them. It is quite true that they didn't mention it until asked, but why should they?
    Did Ru'afo lie to the Federation about wether the Ba'ku were pre-warp? Oh he certainly was not entirely honest, but did he actually lie about that? I forget if that was part of the reason Admiral Dougherty (or even if Picard said that to Dougherty) said the PD didn't apply, or if it was simply because the Ba'ku were not indigenous to the planet... I agree, the Ba'ku didn't know who they were until told, but equally, neither were they open about the skeletons in their historical past...
    what skeletons? They were honest with Picard about why the Son'a left, and when he got around to asking them, they were quite happy to tell him why they migrated to the planet. Anij even directly answered Picard's question when he asked her age, and the answer was "over 300". the official date of their colonization of the planet was 2066.
    Would you care to address the facts and conjectures I addressed to you upthread, which deal with the premise of the Son'a?
    I addressed what was worth discussing, the rest was either blatantly obvious or otherwise pointless to discuss.
    Or to touch back on the idea that if the situation between the Ba'ku and the Son'a would count as an 'internal issue' which the PD prevents Starfleet from acting in, then the same could be said of the Valakians and Menk? To restate, I believe that as the Valakians were actively seeking help, they should have been given it...
    the difference is in whether Starfleet was already involved.
    Or even my thought that had The Drumhead focussed on a prime character rather than Simon Tarses, it would likely have been an even more engaging episode, and one which could have added some excellent depths to an established character, rather than having the opportunity 'wasted' on a never-seen-again nobody?
    I already answered why Tarses was there. And quite frankly, I think your idea was myopic. If it's a main cast member the audience will not have reason to question IF the person(IE Tarses) is actually guilty of something. By using an unknown, they created a situation where the viewer actually wants to know IF Tarses is guilty. If it had been Worf as you suggested it would have been boring and of no value beyond back story on the character. It would have failed to create a situation where the viewer had reason to question if Norah Satie was right.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited December 2015
    jonsills wrote: »
    No, he meant "burn". Usually, though, a "sick burn" has to be called by a third party, otherwise it comes across as bragging.

    And while I'm not going to subject myself to that movie again (twice was twice too many, in my opinion), I certainly saw nothing to suggest that the Ba'ku were anything more than a society of lotus-eaters, luddites rejecting technology because it jest ain't natural. Their little idyll was made possible only by the fact that they were hoarding this energy supply of theirs, refusing to share with anyone (to the point they couldn't even coexist on the same planet as their rebellious children. A planet's a pretty doggone big place, you know.) The Son'a we saw weren't a lot better, would-be imperials who lacked the personal energy to actually build an empire so looked to swipe one instead. Personally, I thought the winning move here would have been to remove all Federation ships and outposts from the entire region and let them settle matters between themselves.

    On a side note, the characterization of certain people as "benefit monkeys" is frankly offensive. Perhaps matters are different in the UK, but the only place I've ever encountered poor people who were content to simply sit on their laurels and collect public benefits were in anecdotes related by right-wingers ranting about how terrible poor people are. Are you under the impression that welfare and food stamps provide anywhere near enough to live comfortably? If that were the case, there wouldn't be anyone willing to work for the current pitiful Federal minimum wage in the States. (And I've been there. I worked as a janitor in a Dairy Queen for three months in order to get out of that.)​​
    In the UK, receiving benefits often opens up gateways to other benefits. For example, someone on JobSeeker's Allowance may not get enough in terms of JSA to live well on, but they may then also receive housing benefit towards rent, child support, etc, which soon starts to add up to being equivalent to an average-paid job -- enough to live reasonably on, but not enough to really save to better ones-self... With recent shifts in policy, such as more zero-hour contracts, which job seekers are being 'encouraged' to take, there is less option for people to refuse work. However, people who have children, are somewhat immune to the sanctions which can be imposed, ie "If you stop my benefits, my kids go hungry..." So yeah, not exactly living on easy street, but for some, who are able to milk and manipulate the system, certainly not 'austerity' living... Again, if people have found the comment offensive, I'm sorry they feel that way.
    Oh, nice backhanded apology. Your "joke" invoking wildly incorrect but sadly common stereotypes of the recipients of government aid was only funny to you.

    Here's some food for thought, there was an experiment in the late seventies with paying everybody in a few Canadian cities a flat monthly stipend. Did people work less? Yes. But a closer analysis in a Duke University study published this past year (additional link) reveals something interesting about who worked less: new parents, but more importantly, teenagers who no longer had to take jobs to support their families and so could focus on school. I think we can call that a net positive.

    So either people on this side of the Atlantic are more generally industrious, or welfare programs aren't actually the resource drain you seem to think they are. And for all practical purposes the "welfare queen" is a statistical nonentity compared to the billions spent keeping agribusiness and defense contractors afloat, especially in the United States. You want to solve the problem? Stereotyping people as lazy so you can discount them is about as far from a solution as you get, because we work damn hard for damn little.
    My avatar isn't a head-canon species, it's a picture from a Yugioh card. so yeah, I still have no idea what you're talking about. Also, if I was to discuss a race I made up, I wouldn't presume to pretend the race was canon.
    Sorry, I meant Tsin'xing, the character inyour signature, which I suspect you actually know that, and are just trying to be pedantic to avoid the point. Oh there's no 'if' you were to discuss the race, you have done so several times, referencing skin color, wing posession, social attitudes etc, so don't try to be disingenuous. Also, I never said that you did 'pretend the race was canon', just that you have raised them as a topic within discussions about other canon races.
    Actually, I don't recall @markhawkman ever referring to a headcanon species in a topic about canon races, especially not as debating evidence, and I think I would have noticed given the number of times he and I have argued about the quality of Cryptic's writing.

    I do, however, recall you bringing up the Pentaxians from the Masterverse in an argument over how the Federation should have responded to first contact with the Dominion in "The Jem'Hadar". I don't think markhawkman is the hypocrite here.
    Post edited by starswordc on
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    In point of fact, Mark's signature depicts a character from Champions Online, who may actually be a member of a canon species (I haven't read Champions Universe, and am unfamiliar with the totality of canon aliens in that setting; I am aware, however, that there are at least three species that have made peaceful contact with Champions Earth, and a minimum of three attempting invasion in the current storyline [not including transuniversal invasion from the Qliphothic Realm or Shadow Destroyer's forces from Multifaria Earth]). I don't recall his Champs character ever entering the discussion.

    I do, however, hold that the 24th-century interpretation of the Prime Directive is merely an excuse for the Federation to pretend to be high-minded and "above all that" when dealing with "lesser" civilizations, like they're practicing to be the horrendously selfish Organians (who were content to let Starfleet and KDF forces slaughter one another among the stars, until it suddenly inconvenienced them).
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    This debate looks mildly interesting (the bits about the Ba'ku and the Son'a, not benefits). It's a shame it involves watching Insurrection to talk about.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    so you're talking about something utterly irrelevant. Ok then, duly ignored.
    No, I'm talking about times when you have actively introduced your head-canon into other discussions -- Something which you are now accusing me of doing which I am not doing, because I am discussing canon events -- ergo, you are a hypocrite.

    what skeletons? They were honest with Picard about why the Son'a left, and when he got around to asking them, they were quite happy to tell him why they migrated to the planet. Anij even directly answered Picard's question when he asked her age, and the answer was "over 300". the official date of their colonization of the planet was 2066.
    No they weren't... They gave a slanted version of events. As discussed above (although you apparently consider it 'pointless to discuss') the resources the Son'a had (ships which could give a pasting to a Sovereign-Class) would have required way more than 'a handful' of people... Conquering two species would have required way more than 'a handful' of people, and manufacturing 'massive amounts' of White (enough to be of use to the Dominion) would also require way more than 'a handful' of people. The presence and impact the Son'a had in Insurrection and DS-9 belies what Picard was told, and this is my main issue with Insurrection: It was so poorly plotted and written, that when analysed, it essentially contradicts itself.
    I addressed what was worth discussing, the rest was either blatantly obvious or otherwise pointless to discuss.
    I think you mean 'supports a point you do not want to acknowledge' because it trumps your point, but nevermind...

    I already answered why Tarses was there. And quite frankly, I think your idea was myopic. If it's a main cast member the audience will not have reason to question IF the person(IE Tarses) is actually guilty of something. By using an unknown, they created a situation where the viewer actually wants to know IF Tarses is guilty. If it had been Worf as you suggested it would have been boring and of no value beyond back story on the character. It would have failed to create a situation where the viewer had reason to question if Norah Satie was right.
    ???
    And you don't think that an audience would be more engaged if that was to focus on a main character? You don't think that an audience would be interested to find out more about a main character than had been previously established? And 'no value beyond backstory on the character'... To quote John McEnroe, "Are you serious?!?!?!" Backstory is what makes a character! It's what turns them from a named archetype, into a unique and interesting entity in their own right. It would have absolutely given the viewer reason to question if Norah Satie was right, and have fundamental revelations about the character! Consider Wolf in the Fold... The tension relied on audience engagement with Scotty... Had the events transpired with Ensign Redshirt being possessed, while the tension of the drama would be the same, the audience's engagement would have been less, due to it being an unfamiliar character. The familiar character raises engagement, not diminishes it...
  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    Oh, nice backhanded apology.
    Well, it's the only one you're getting, so accept it or don't...
    starswordc wrote: »
    Your "joke" invoking wildly incorrect but sadly common stereotypes of the recipients of government aid was only funny to you.
    So be it...
    starswordc wrote: »
    Here's some food for thought, there was an experiment in the late seventies with paying everybody in a few Canadian cities a flat monthly stipend. Did people work less? Yes. But a closer analysis in a Duke University study published this past year (additional link) reveals something interesting about who worked less: new parents, but more importantly, teenagers who no longer had to take jobs to support their families and so could focus on school. I think we can call that a net positive.
    I read something on that topic a while ago, and was actually discussing it with my father in law not 48 hours ago... From what I remember, it said that the only people who really stopped working, were students, and those very close to retirement age. I don't recall new parents being listed, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me if they had been. I think it's a damn good idea, and something which would be helpful to many people who are currently struggling to make ends meet...
    starswordc wrote: »
    So either people on this side of the Atlantic are more generally industrious, or welfare programs aren't actually the resource drain you seem to think they are. And for all practical purposes the "welfare queen" is a statistical nonentity compared to the billions spent keeping agribusiness and defense contractors afloat, especially in the United States. You want to solve the problem? Stereotyping people as lazy so you can discount them is about as far from a solution as you get, because we work damn hard for damn little.
    Stereotypes exist for a reason... And I repeat, without putting my personal business on public forum, I am sympathetic to the issue... I am not, however, and never will be, supportive of people who actively refuse to work and milk the system. Those people do exist (in whatever number) and they will never have anything but my contempt... That does not, just to clarify, include people who, for whatever reason, are out of work, and who wish to be employed... That was never the point I was making, hence why I refuse to apologise for your misunderstanding of a point which I had previously clarified.

    starswordc wrote: »
    Actually, I don't recall @markhawkman ever referring to a headcanon species in a topic about canon races, especially not as debating evidence, and I think I would have noticed given the number of times he and I have argued about the quality of Cryptic's writing.
    The comments have been made, but unlike yourself, I'm not prepared to trawl the search feature to find them...
    starswordc wrote: »
    Is that an attempt to try and make me look like a hypocrite? If so, it fails for the following reasons. 1. My comments in that post are nothing more than observing that the general issue under discussion, was one which patrickngo and I explored in one of our pieces, and which we (you and I) then discussed in itself, not as any direct comparison to the main debate. Other forum authors refer to their own work when it is parallel to a discussion, that comment was no different.

    But primarily:
    2. In this debate, I have not been arguing from personal head-canon, merely pointing out the logical conjectures created by the flaws in Insurrection's writing, and how they are impacted by both Insurrection, and DS-9. markhawkman accused me of introducing head-canon (when I had not) despite having done so themself on other occasions, making markhawkman a hypocrite (for criticising someone for doing something which they themself have done)

    Other comments made by markhawkman have been nothing but ad hominem attacks ("You're crazy" etc) rather than logical counters to the points I raised. I'm perfectly capable and willing to debate in a civilised manner, but when someone starts throwing ad hominem, hyperbole and other general disrespect around, rather than addressing actual points made, I will not simply ignore it...
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    what skeletons? They were honest with Picard about why the Son'a left, and when he got around to asking them, they were quite happy to tell him why they migrated to the planet. Anij even directly answered Picard's question when he asked her age, and the answer was "over 300". the official date of their colonization of the planet was 2066.
    No they weren't... They gave a slanted version of events. As discussed above (although you apparently consider it 'pointless to discuss') the resources the Son'a had (ships which could give a pasting to a Sovereign-Class) would have required way more than 'a handful' of people... Conquering two species would have required way more than 'a handful' of people, and manufacturing 'massive amounts' of White (enough to be of use to the Dominion) would also require way more than 'a handful' of people. The presence and impact the Son'a had in Insurrection and DS-9 belies what Picard was told, and this is my main issue with Insurrection: It was so poorly plotted and written, that when analysed, it essentially contradicts itself.
    No it does not. Anij never made any claims as to how many Son'a were in existence, only a vague statement as to how many left their village. She also never said what size of ship they had or well, anything about the ships actually, other than that her people had the tech to make decent warships. We don't know ANYTHING about where the Son'a ships came from. Nor was it stated how much Ketracel White they produced(but that was likely by their slaves and not the Son'a themselves.) Also, given what we saw in DS9, the Son'a were a minor ally of the Dominion. In fact Weyoun felt the Son'a fleet was incapable of adequately protecting their installation on Devos. The evidence seen on screen is not sufficient to estimate the size of the Son'a fleet. However, it does seem to indicate it was a rather small fleet.

    Also, they had a century to build their ships and conquer their slaves...

    So yes, you're nit-picking and looking for inconsistencies to support your POV where evidence is lacking.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • oldravenman3025oldravenman3025 Member Posts: 1,892 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    No, he meant "burn". Usually, though, a "sick burn" has to be called by a third party, otherwise it comes across as bragging.

    On a side note, the characterization of certain people as "benefit monkeys" is frankly offensive. Perhaps matters are different in the UK, but the only place I've ever encountered poor people who were content to simply sit on their laurels and collect public benefits were in anecdotes related by right-wingers ranting about how terrible poor people are. Are you under the impression that welfare and food stamps provide anywhere near enough to live comfortably? If that were the case, there wouldn't be anyone willing to work for the current pitiful Federal minimum wage in the States. (And I've been there. I worked as a janitor in a Dairy Queen for three months in order to get out of that.)​​
    In the UK, receiving benefits often opens up gateways to other benefits. For example, someone on JobSeeker's Allowance may not get enough in terms of JSA to live well on, but they may then also receive housing benefit towards rent, child support, etc, which soon starts to add up to being equivalent to an average-paid job -- enough to live reasonably on, but not enough to really save to better ones-self... With recent shifts in policy, such as more zero-hour contracts, which job seekers are being 'encouraged' to take, there is less option for people to refuse work. However, people who have children, are somewhat immune to the sanctions which can be imposed, ie "If you stop my benefits, my kids go hungry..." So yeah, not exactly living on easy street, but for some, who are able to milk and manipulate the system, certainly not 'austerity' living... Again, if people have found the comment offensive, I'm sorry they feel that way.
    Oh, nice backhanded apology. Your "joke" invoking wildly incorrect but sadly common stereotypes of the recipients of government aid was only funny to you.

    Here's some food for thought, there was an experiment in the late seventies with paying everybody in a few Canadian cities a flat monthly stipend. Did people work less? Yes. But a closer analysis in a Duke University study published this past year (additional link) reveals something interesting about who worked less: new parents, but more importantly, teenagers who no longer had to take jobs to support their families and so could focus on school. I think we can call that a net positive.

    So either people on this side of the Atlantic are more generally industrious, or welfare programs aren't actually the resource drain you seem to think they are. And for all practical purposes the "welfare queen" is a statistical nonentity compared to the billions spent keeping agribusiness and defense contractors afloat, especially in the United States. You want to solve the problem? Stereotyping people as lazy so you can discount them is about as far from a solution as you get, because we work damn hard for damn little.



    With all due respect, while some of what you posted above I can agree with. A huge part of it is, to put it frankly, horseshit.


    There is a reason that many working folks tend to look down (not always correctly) on people who get some sort of government assistance. There are too many people who game the system, or become "institutionalized" on government aid (generation after generation growing up on programs like Welfare, for example). Don't tell me that it's a "statistical non-entity". Past statistics from various government sources (like the GAO) and taxpayer watchdog groups say otherwise. And I've witnessed such TRIBBLE, or the end products of such TRIBBLE, my entire life.

    While I don't agree with corporate welfare or agricultural subsidies (if a company/farm fails, that's the market at work. Let nature take it's course), bailouts are a drop in the bucket when compared to government aid and entitlement programs since Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" came about in the 1960's. Roughly fifty to sixty percent of Federal spending every fiscal year goes toward social programs as a whole, while defense comes in anywhere between twenty to thirty percent, the rest is government operating expenses,pork barrel programs, etc, etc.

    Yes, we need to curtail wasteful spending in all areas, especially defense. However, to say that social aid programs are not part of the problem is patently false. It's become a bloated monster that Washington can no longer afford in it's current size. And as somebody who, despite working their TRIBBLE off their entire life dealing with entitled sons of TRIBBLE, having to pull themselves up after once losing everything they had, and still able to take an early retirement, I'm sick of paying for those who rather have a bunch of kids they can't pay for themselves, sell/use drugs, drink themselves to death, or go from the Social Services office to being supported by the State/Federal prison systems. I'm sick of paying for programs that don't actually help those they were intended to help, because those unfortunates have to jump through hoop after hoop to get the help they work their entire lives to pay for, due to the bums who play the system because "work is for suckers".


    Despite being one of those "heartless right wingers" that an earlier poster mentioned, I support any government program that is run responsibly, and is a "help-out" as opposed to a "hand-out". And to get back to that original intent, we have to trim the fat. Then, maybe folks who are forced to seek help to get back on their feet won't be lumped in with the leeches who want that "free money". Which won't happen because of a little something we call "politics", and the brow beating of taxpayers who dare have the gall to say something about it.

    Anyway, I'm done. I've violated forum rules enough. I just hope that Trendy doesn't knock my TRIBBLE into the dirt over this, but sometimes I can't help but to comment.

    Peace, out.



  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited December 2015
    No it does not. Anij never made any claims as to how many Son'a were in existence, only a vague statement as to how many left their village.
    My point precisely! She was vague (in my opinion, deliberately) rather than specific, and implied that it was only a very small number of the young people who had left. Given the resources the Son'a later had, that would have had to have been a significant number, if not the majority, and which the Ba'ku were still trying to re-populate from, shown by Artim and his friends...

    She also never said what size of ship they had or well, anything about the ships actually, other than that her people had the tech to make decent warships.
    Agreed. And while I suggested upthread that it is a reasonable conjecture that the Young people left in their original ships, Trek uniformly shows ships of preceding generations as being inferior to contemporary technology. The Son'a ships were every bit the combat equal of the Enterprise, if not realistically it's superior... I remember watching the movie in the cinema, and the high angle shot of the Enterprise in orbit, when all of a sudden, it is overflown by the Son'a ships and thinking "Oh TRIBBLE..." It was a nice reversal of the presence of an Imperial Star Destroyer...

    We don't know ANYTHING about where the Son'a ships came from.
    We don't, but logical conjecture (based on my immediately above observation) is that they were contemporary to the appearance, not the original Ba'ku colony ship(s) (although I would have accepted it if they were identified as such)

    Nor was it stated how much Ketracel White they produced(but that was likely by their slaves and not the Son'a themselves.)
    I believe Riker's words were "Massive quantities of the narcotic, Ketracel White..."
    Poor writing, given that White is something required by the Jem'Hadar's genetic structure rather than a narcotic, but clearly enough to be considered 'massive' (given that the Dominion would have been producing it themselves in the Gamma quadrant.

    Conjecture i: Perhaps the Son'a began providing White to the Dominion, when the Dominion lost some supply lines due to the closing of the wormhole...

    Conjecture ii: Perhaps the Son'a did so because they thought the Dominion's medical technology could assist with their own problems...
    Also, given what we saw in DS9, the Son'a were a minor ally of the Dominion. In fact Weyoun felt the Son'a fleet was incapable of adequately protecting their installation on Devos. The evidence seen on screen is not sufficient to estimate the size of the Son'a fleet. However, it does seem to indicate it was a rather small fleet.
    Agreed. A small fleet in the galactic scheme of things, but still larger than what 'a handful' of people could comprise, and enough to be considered an entity in their own right, rather than merely 'nomadic outcasts'.

    Also, they had a century to build their ships and conquer their slaves...
    They did indeed, but as mentioned previously, conquering two species would still require greater numbers than 'a handful', and in both Other Fiction and Trek, when slaves get hold of advanced technology, they overthrow their former masters. The Tarlac and the Elora did not do that. Ru'afo's 'girls' dealt with him (and others) in a courteous, capable and professional manner. All it would have taken would have been a skull-staple through the eyeball, and bam, no more Ru'afo, and enough slaves to overthrow the Son'a personnel...

    Conjecture: Riker's observation "integrated them as a labour-class" was not a mere euphemism for slavery, but that they actually were considered as a class in the Son'a social strata and treated accordingly, not 'just slaves'... That would certainly explain why they did not try and overthrow their Son'a masters...

    So yes, you're nit-picking and looking for inconsistencies to support your POV where evidence is lacking.
    Yes, I am nit-picking, but only at the flaws, plot holes and inconsistencies which are within Insurrection (and highlighted by the DS-9 reference to the Son'a) and those examples do support my interpretation of said piece, rather than mere blind acceptance of what was 'presented as intended'...
    Post edited by marcusdkane on
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited December 2015
    starswordc wrote: »
    Not only would leaving well enough alone be more in keeping with supposed Federation principles than yet more arrogant cultural intolerance ("you have to live this way because it's RIGHT AND GOOD because we say so")
    And that, is touching back onto the issue with the Valakians and the Menk: If it would have been right to have stayed away from the Ba'ku, it was right for Archer to have stayed away from the Valakians... The Valakians requested help, they should have received it.
    Yes, they should have, because they were asking for humanitarian assistance for a previously viable but now dying society of billions, instead of being a bunch of plastic surgery addicts trying to stave off dying of old age. And the aid was refused based on a TRIBBLE-esque philosophy comprising a scientifically discredited and morally bankrupt idea of goal-oriented evolution saying that the Valakians somehow deserved to die because the Menk were somehow destined to become the superior race.

    I also would like to bring up this deleted scene you mentioned that I guess indicated the Son'a couldn't have children anymore because they'd TRIBBLE with themselves too much (guessing here based on the way these things usually play out). Instead of taking over the Ba'ku homeworld and potentially destroying a culture that, moral or not, squandered existence or not, is perfectly happy to just be left alone and cannot do anything but leave everybody else alone, I would recommend a solution rather like what Picard et al. chose in "When the Bough Breaks": try and solve the Son'as' actual problem instead of letting them dictate direction. But since it's not onscreen, it didn't happen, so we're left with the Son'a just being unhealthily obsessed with not dying.
    To hold onto the Son'a alliance with the Dominion during a war, is nothing more than being petty grudge-holding... The Klingon Empire have had a much longer and more directly antagonist relationship to the Federation, yet they also had a significant period of peace (until plot dictated they become enemies again) (*Which gives me a thought which I'll detail below...) Once war ends, viewpoints shift, alliances change, and things change, which brings me to the next part of that point;
    Not a grudge, objective assessment coupled with exercise of morals. Here's the objective part: We've seen the results of that kind of peace deal with the Klingons and the Cardassians. With the Klingons you had a couple decades of peace, typically while fear of an outside bogeyman held things together, then either the Klingons had a civil war or they picked a fight with their on-paper allies to avoid one. And they've repeated that same order of events three times by STO's timeframe. And the ink wasn't even dry on the Federation/Cardassian armistice, not the actual treaty, before they started trying to undermine it and reposition themselves for the next war. The actual treaty just led to a colonial insurgency that, coupled with the Klingons' unprovoked invasion, led directly to the Dominion War.

    Now here we have the Dominion, who made their presence known by exterminating minimum tens of thousands of people in a completely unprovoked attack, sentenced an entire species to a slow extinction by genetic disease, invaded and overthrew a foreign government with zero connection to the one that had actually aggrieved them and made clear their intent to later exterminate the species after they'd outlived their usefulness), then tried to carry that genocide out just to spite the Alliance (only stopping because the Founders care more about themselves than anything else in existence). And every event above after "Call to Arms" was made possible, in part or in full, by the Son'a providing the keystone to their entire war machine after the Federation and Prophets cut off the option to resupply from home.

    If that's the kind of people the Son'a are willing to get into bed with, you'll have to explain me again how the Son'a are good allies for the Federation to make in peacetime (as opposed to merely putting up with Romulan realpolitik and Klingon psychopathy long enough to get rid of someone even worse) and how this is sure to lead to improved health and security for everyone. It wouldn't surprise me if the deal seriously hurt the Federation's relations with at least two member states (Betazed and Benzar, both of which fell under Dominion occupation), not to mention neighbors more significant than the Son'a, e.g. the Cardassians whom the Dominion tried to slaughter in cold blood, or perhaps more significantly, the Romulans who still think the Dominion assassinated one of their senators. Romulans are nothing if not vengeful, so it's possible this may be the trigger for the breakdown in Federation-Romulan diplomatic relations that apparently preceded Nemesis. And I doubt the Romulans are going to trust the Federation to distribute their immortality boondoggle to them, too, which stymies the most obvious way for the Feds to sweeten the deal.

    Speaking of immortality boondoggles, there's this little problem with the plan itself:
    starswordc wrote: »
    but from practical standpoint the Federation's resources are better spent rebuilding from the Dominion War using existing technology than chasing after immortality boondoggles with -- this cannot be repeated enough -- those who willingly aided and abetted the murder of billions of innocent people less than two years earlier.
    Metaphasic technology would potentially heal the wounded more completely than the existing technology. I say potentially, because as we saw, the effects of the metaphasic regeneration was transient. However, the plot point is that the Council were presumably told it could have been permanent effects (why else would they expend the resources of the duck-blind mission) In their opinion, it was an avenue worth exploring.
    Which just goes to show that, contrary to Dougherty's opinion (hint, exposition is not always correct, as you keep saying about the Ba'kus' narrative on the Son'as' origins), the Federation scientific community had not been permitted sufficient time to study the scenario before a course of action was chosen. Because, if in merely a couple days of wandering around the planet, without even bothering to actually study things (because they were too busy fighting Ru'afo and his dupe), Picard's crew could learn of such a huge drawback, that the immortality of the planet Ba'ku works like the immortality of the Holy Grail in Indiana Jones (likely translating to something like tretonin in Stargate SG-1, a drug you have to take continuously, after it was turned into a medical treatment), then the Federation Science Council would have also discovered it with enough time and access to the planet. Even the millennia-old Dominion recognized the superiority of Federation science, enough so that they had Vorta field commanders casually cracking wise about "Federation engineers who can turn rocks into replicators".

    Case study: Geordi lost his sight again in the three years that passed between Insurrection and Nemesis after regrowing it in the former. (Look closely and you'll notice LeVar Burton's wearing the "ocular implant" contact lenses again in the latter movie.) Clearly it doesn't take very long for the technobabble to wear off once you go cold-turkey.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    Well, Star, the Federation didn't exactly have clean hands on that whole "sentence a species to slow death through genetic disease" thing...
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    Heh, if ONE Federation observer was able to take a primitive planet and make it into TRIBBLE world with him as the Fuhrer.... Uh... how many Son'a would be needed to do the same thing?

    Anyways, yeah, metaphasic radiation, awesome, but it's like living in the fountain of youth... because you can't leave. I don't think the Grail was a perfect analogy, but a pretty close one. it's power over you only lasts while you're there, but it doesn't necessarily return you to how you were before you entered. In Geordi's case maybe his eyes just hadn't finished healing?
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    Well, Star, the Federation didn't exactly have clean hands on that whole "sentence a species to slow death through genetic disease" thing...

    Sorry, jon, you lost me. You talking about the Valakian/Menk thing or something else?
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    edited December 2015
    starswordc wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    Well, Star, the Federation didn't exactly have clean hands on that whole "sentence a species to slow death through genetic disease" thing...

    Sorry, jon, you lost me. You talking about the Valakian/Menk thing or something else?
    No, the bit where they infected the Great Link with a disease designed to kill all the Founders. "But they did it first!" isn't really a good defense against charges of genocide.
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    Well, Star, the Federation didn't exactly have clean hands on that whole "sentence a species to slow death through genetic disease" thing...

    Sorry, jon, you lost me. You talking about the Valakian/Menk thing or something else?
    No, the bit where they infected the Great Link with a disease designed to kill all the Founders. "But they did it first!" isn't really a good defense against charges of genocide.

    Yeah, that wasn't the Federation. Or at least I don't interpret Section 31 as being a legitimate Federation agency. But that's a whole other topic.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    starswordc wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    Well, Star, the Federation didn't exactly have clean hands on that whole "sentence a species to slow death through genetic disease" thing...

    Sorry, jon, you lost me. You talking about the Valakian/Menk thing or something else?
    No, the bit where they infected the Great Link with a disease designed to kill all the Founders. "But they did it first!" isn't really a good defense against charges of genocide.

    Yeah, that wasn't the Federation. Or at least I don't interpret Section 31 as being a legitimate Federation agency. But that's a whole other topic.

    Whether is or isn't (it is) the Federation still colludes with S31 which still makes them complicit in the genocide.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    I'm not sure genocide is unjustified in that context. sure it's a drastic step to win a war, but when the other option involves the eradication of your race....
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    Yes, they should have, because they were asking for humanitarian assistance for a previously viable but now dying society of billions, instead of being a bunch of plastic surgery addicts trying to stave off dying of old age. And the aid was refused based on a TRIBBLE-esque philosophy comprising a scientifically discredited and morally bankrupt idea of goal-oriented evolution saying that the Valakians somehow deserved to die because the Menk were somehow destined to become the superior race.
    A bunch of [Inserting my own assumption here] former children born to immortality, raised on stories of the off-worlders, exiled when they wanted to experience what their parents rejected, and then trying to regain the immortality they once had. I can understand what made the Son'a the way they are, because as illustrated above, I disbelieve the Ba'ku, because the facts presented (in Insurrection and DS-9) belie the interpretation the writers probably intended a viewer to take for their claims. Credibility is earned, not given, and the Ba'ku do nothing to actually earn it...

    And absolutely, Archer and Phlox's decision making process and result was morally wrong, but these two instances each represent the opposite side of the non-interference argument, ie if the move to stay away from assisting the Valakians was correct, then Picard should* have steered clear of the Ba'ku situation, and if it was right to interfere in the Ba'ku situation, Archer should have helped the Valakians.

    *and by the previous examples I have cited, Picard was more than happy to hide behind the Prime Directive and not intervene in events, even when he was personally morally obligated to do so (Gowron) when it suited him to not get involved...

    starswordc wrote: »
    I also would like to bring up this deleted scene you mentioned that I guess indicated the Son'a couldn't have children anymore because they'd TRIBBLE with themselves too much (guessing here based on the way these things usually play out).

    Checking, I was mistaken about it being a deleted scene, but according to MA,
    According to the novelization of Star Trek: Insurrection, the Son'a were rendered sterile by a failed attempt by Gallatin to artificially replicate the metaphasic radiation around their homeworld. Unable to reproduce, they became a dying race in every sense of the word, increasing their desperation.

    I thought I saw reference to that being a deleted scene, rather than novelization, my mistake there... But, if that is to be taken as valid, it does explain why the Son'a are in such a desperate situation, and as I hypothesise above, only trying to reclaim the immortality they had always had, and that makes their motivations very different than say a Human or Romulan trying to achieve immortality through technological means.

    starswordc wrote: »
    Instead of taking over the Ba'ku homeworld and potentially destroying a culture that, moral or not, squandered existence or not, is perfectly happy to just be left alone and cannot do anything but leave everybody else alone, I would recommend a solution rather like what Picard et al. chose in "When the Bough Breaks": try and solve the Son'as' actual problem instead of letting them dictate direction. But since it's not onscreen, it didn't happen, so we're left with the Son'a just being unhealthily obsessed with not dying.
    Absolutely so, although of course, that wouldn't've given such a gripping adventure plot... ( ;) )

    starswordc wrote: »
    Not a grudge, objective assessment coupled with exercise of morals. Here's the objective part: We've seen the results of that kind of peace deal with the Klingons and the Cardassians. With the Klingons you had a couple decades of peace, typically while fear of an outside bogeyman held things together, then either the Klingons had a civil war or they picked a fight with their on-paper allies to avoid one. And they've repeated that same order of events three times by STO's timeframe. And the ink wasn't even dry on the Federation/Cardassian armistice, not the actual treaty, before they started trying to undermine it and reposition themselves for the next war. The actual treaty just led to a colonial insurgency that, coupled with the Klingons' unprovoked invasion, led directly to the Dominion War.
    Absolutely, no disagreement there...

    starswordc wrote: »
    Again, no disagreement...

    starswordc wrote: »
    If that's the kind of people the Son'a are willing to get into bed with,
    If that's the kind of people the Son'a are desperate enough to get into bed with... A crucial distinction...

    starswordc wrote: »
    you'll have to explain me again how the Son'a are good allies for the Federation to make in peacetime (as opposed to merely putting up with Romulan realpolitik and Klingon psychopathy long enough to get rid of someone even worse)
    starswordc wrote: »
    and how this is sure to lead to improved health and security for everyone.
    I'm distinguishing two points, but they are both addressed by the same rationale:
    On Earth, petroleum once turned petty thugs into world leaders... Warp drive transformed a bunch of Romulan thugs into an empire... We can handle the Son'a...

    It turns out he was wrong -- massively so -- but I can understand why the Federation Council may have thought that, and why he would have been reassured by the Council's confidence/complacency, and how the concept of metaphasics-based medicine would have been massively appealing to the Federation Council.

    starswordc wrote: »
    It wouldn't surprise me if the deal seriously hurt the Federation's relations with at least two member states (Betazed and Benzar, both of which fell under Dominion occupation), not to mention neighbors more significant than the Son'a, e.g. the Cardassians whom the Dominion tried to slaughter in cold blood, or perhaps more significantly, the Romulans who still think the Dominion assassinated one of their senators. Romulans are nothing if not vengeful, so it's possible this may be the trigger for the breakdown in Federation-Romulan diplomatic relations that apparently preceded Nemesis. And I doubt the Romulans are going to trust the Federation to distribute their immortality boondoggle to them, too, which stymies the most obvious way for the Feds to sweeten the deal.
    The Dominion to which the Son'a were only allied... Again, after a war, alliances and political relationships shift, and old grievances are overlooked, even if not forgotten...

    starswordc wrote: »
    Speaking of immortality boondoggles, there's this little problem with the plan itself:

    Which just goes to show that, contrary to Dougherty's opinion (hint, exposition is not always correct, as you keep saying about the Ba'kus' narrative on the Son'as' origins), the Federation scientific community had not been permitted sufficient time to study the scenario before a course of action was chosen. Because, if in merely a couple days of wandering around the planet, without even bothering to actually study things (because they were too busy fighting Ru'afo and his dupe), Picard's crew could learn of such a huge drawback, that the immortality of the planet Ba'ku works like the immortality of the Holy Grail in Indiana Jones (likely translating to something like tretonin in Stargate SG-1, a drug you have to take continuously, after it was turned into a medical treatment), then the Federation Science Council would have also discovered it with enough time and access to the planet. Even the millennia-old Dominion recognized the superiority of Federation science, enough so that they had Vorta field commanders casually cracking wise about "Federation engineers who can turn rocks into replicators".
    Plot necessity putting Picard and co into the right, in order to justify their actions... It's just as plausible, that the Son'a Process would now have lead to a successful recreation of the metaphasic effect with lasting effects. If they couldn't prove it to the Council, the Council would not have allocated the resources to the duck-blind mission...

    starswordc wrote: »
    Case study: Geordi lost his sight again in the three years that passed between Insurrection and Nemesis after regrowing it in the former. (Look closely and you'll notice LeVar Burton's wearing the "ocular implant" contact lenses again in the latter movie.) Clearly it doesn't take very long for the technobabble to wear off once you go cold-turkey.
    Absolutely so, the metaphasic effect was not permanent once someone moved away from the planet (hence the Son'a having begun to age, freak out, and then begin to obsessively pursue artificial methods of sustaining their lives)

    However, it also raises an interesting point about immortality, and two more plot holes...

    In the Highlander-verse, when Xavier St.Cloud has his hand severed in a duel, it did not regrow, forcing him to wear a prosthetic. Geordi's organic eyes had been completely replaced by prosthetics, and yet the metaphasic effect was able to actually re-grow the optic nerves and the eyes in a matter of hours. Comparatively, the metaphasic effect was more powerful than the Quickening (if not as enduring). Which then raises my following observation in plot holes: Given her exposure to such a powerful source of immortality, Anij should not have been in danger following the cave in... In order to cram in a 'Hollywood Moment' for Picard, the writers clearly forgot that the metaphasic effect (given it is powerful enough to regrow exercised organs) should have simply healed her in due course. She should not have required medical attention from Doctor Crusher, nor Picard to 'slow down time'... Additionally, it should also have made Picard's body reject his artificial heart... I know, that would have been a bit beyond the scope of the movie, but if the example of Geordi's eyes is to be held solid, by logical extension, it has to extend to Picard's heart as well...
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    I'm not sure genocide is unjustified in that context. sure it's a drastic step to win a war, but when the other option involves the eradication of your race....

    Providing the wormhole could be blocked off, exterminating the Founders would be fine for the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. However the Gamma Quadrant would be in chaos. I would assume the Vorta have standing orders to send the Jem Hadar on a kamikaze extermination campaign against the quadrant if their gods die.
    It also may allow for the Borg to gain a foothold in the GQ.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    I'm not sure genocide is unjustified in that context. sure it's a drastic step to win a war, but when the other option involves the eradication of your race....

    Providing the wormhole could be blocked off, exterminating the Founders would be fine for the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. However the Gamma Quadrant would be in chaos. I would assume the Vorta have standing orders to send the Jem Hadar on a kamikaze extermination campaign against the quadrant if their gods die.
    Actually, if their behavior in "The Ship" is any indication, the Jem'Hadar would be more likely to commit mass suicide in shame after being unable to prevent the death of their gods.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    starswordc wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    I'm not sure genocide is unjustified in that context. sure it's a drastic step to win a war, but when the other option involves the eradication of your race....

    Providing the wormhole could be blocked off, exterminating the Founders would be fine for the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. However the Gamma Quadrant would be in chaos. I would assume the Vorta have standing orders to send the Jem Hadar on a kamikaze extermination campaign against the quadrant if their gods die.
    Actually, if their behavior in "The Ship" is any indication, the Jem'Hadar would be more likely to commit mass suicide in shame after being unable to prevent the death of their gods.

    If that's a guarantee then it's time to build a Death Star and glass some Founders. Though if I remember there was no Vorta in that episode right? And only one Founder died, not all of them.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    I'm not sure genocide is unjustified in that context. sure it's a drastic step to win a war, but when the other option involves the eradication of your race....

    Providing the wormhole could be blocked off, exterminating the Founders would be fine for the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. However the Gamma Quadrant would be in chaos. I would assume the Vorta have standing orders to send the Jem Hadar on a kamikaze extermination campaign against the quadrant if their gods die.
    Actually, if their behavior in "The Ship" is any indication, the Jem'Hadar would be more likely to commit mass suicide in shame after being unable to prevent the death of their gods.

    If that's a guarantee then it's time to build a Death Star and glass some Founders. Though if I remember there was no Vorta in that episode right?
    Actually, no: Kilana was in charge of those Jems.
    artan42 wrote: »
    And only one Founder died, not all of them.​​
    Only precedent we have either way; the female Changeling was still alive when she sent the Jems on their rampage in "What You Leave Behind". Suggestive, but as you say, not conclusive.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
    In my opinion, the Prime Directive is a good thing; it stems in part from the idea of national self-determination. If Starfleet interferes with a culture, they can't truly determine their own future.

    This is different. The Valakians had that capability - they already knew of other life in the galaxy. Now, Phlox wasn't legally obligated to give the Valakians the cure, but Archer did have the right to share the cure with the Valakians. Phlox wanting to withhold the cure is his right, but Archer could (and considered) have ordered him to do so anyway. Archer had made first contact - he was UE's diplomatic representative to the Valakians at the time - he had the authority to give them the cure.

    There is a moral argument to be made for withholding the cure (which I do not agree with, for the record). If the Valakians were wiped out, it would mean freedom and self-determination for the Menk, while giving the Valakians the cure would mean the Menk remained as they were. Giving the Valakians the cure would mean robbing the Menk of a chance for true self-determination. The obvious flaw there is it suggests that the Menk could only improve their situation if the Valakians went extinct. A better argument is that Archer was confronted with saving one species and allowing another to remain persecuted, or dooming one to allow the other to flourish, which would have been playing God. You can argue that Archer simply chose not to make that choice.

    Myself, I'm not sure what I would have done in his place, but I don't think I would have allowed the Valakians to die.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    According to the novelization of Star Trek: Insurrection, the Son'a were rendered sterile by a failed attempt by Gallatin to artificially replicate the metaphasic radiation around their homeworld. Unable to reproduce, they became a dying race in every sense of the word, increasing their desperation.
    I thought I saw reference to that being a deleted scene, rather than novelization, my mistake there... But, if that is to be taken as valid, it does explain why the Son'a are in such a desperate situation, and as I hypothesise above, only trying to reclaim the immortality they had always had, and that makes their motivations very different than say a Human or Romulan trying to achieve immortality through technological means.
    And yet they never took the simple approach of simply bathing in metaphasic radiation without blowing the planet to heck.... Seriously... the Ba'ku had no way to stop them from simply parking their ships in orbit and staying there. The Son'a chose self-exile over living with their kinfolk.... or even NEAR them. They could have lived on the other side of the planet, but CHOSE not to. Galatin suggested that it was due to hurt feelings over getting told "do things our way or leave".
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
Sign In or Register to comment.