The whole argument over whether to remove the Ba'ku is nothing but a pointless red herring. Once again Star Trek forgets that it's a PLANET population 600, not a NEIGHBORHOOD population 600. Plop a hospital complex down on another continent and forget the whole thing. And if the Son'a object, that should tell you they have an ulterior motive.
I believe the planet itself would have become uninhabitable, which was why the Ba'ku were being relocated...
My point is, it wasn't a bad plan because of the Prime Directive violation (which, as you pointed out, whether it legitimately violates the PD in the first place is questionable). The hell with the Prime Directive. It was a bad plan for far more practical reasons:
I may be misremembering things but IIRC they were treating the technobabble MacGuffin as a non-renewable resource in the movie. Basically they were going to strip-mine the planet, spread it throughout the Federation, and then run out and be right back to square one. But if it's naturally occurring in the planet's natural state, that means wrecking it is the wrong call, killing the golden goose as it were. A more practical, sustainable plan for using the technobabble would be to build a base on the tremendously huge part of the planet the less than a thousand holier-than-thou Luddites couldn't possibly make use of for another millennium or more. A hospital would at least allow the Federation to make continuous use of the technobabble for treating war casualties.
But the Son'a apparently didn't want that, they just wanted to wipe out the folks who kicked them off the planet centuries ago. Nice going, Dougherty.
Number two, given that, as previously noted, the Son'a are Dominion allies, I frankly wouldn't have trusted them in the first place, not as far as I can throw Earth Spacedock with a running start. Given that the Federation is actively at war with the Dominion at this time, engaging with them with anything other than a photon torpedo barrage is close to high treason on Dougherty's part, avoided only because the Federation Council had for some bizarre reason authorized the plan.
About the only reasonable rationale I can think of is, maybe the Son'a promised to pull support of the Dominion if the Federation helped them.
Basically the entire plot of the movie is at least as poorly thought-out as Nemesis, something Patrick Stewart warned the producers about after getting the script, by the way.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
um, didn't insurrection take place AFTER the dominion war ended?
True. Also the Son'a apparently were not involved with actual combat in the war, but supplied the Dominion with the resources needed to fight in the AQ.
The whole argument over whether to remove the Ba'ku is nothing but a pointless red herring. Once again Star Trek forgets that it's a PLANET population 600, not a NEIGHBORHOOD population 600. Plop a hospital complex down on another continent and forget the whole thing. And if the Son'a object, that should tell you they have an ulterior motive.
This^ All that pompous posturing about the moral high ground ignores the fact that collecting the energy wasn't needed, except for extreme edge cases, which included SOME of the Son'a. Heck, not all the Son'a agreed with Ru'afo. Picard stopped Ru'afo because he got help from members of Ru'afo's crew. They realized that Ru'afo was going to killed their families among the Ba'ku due to his petty quest for revenge.
THAT was the reason the collector was used. As Starsword said, if you want to use it to treat people, you can relocate them to the planet. And no.... the Feds hadn't fully researched the radiation. They hadn't had enough time to.
Ru'afo was the sort of scum that I would send Kirk to negotiate with. Also for the pre-mission prep I would remind Kirk of that old saying "speak softly and carry a big stick". Heck, Ru'afo was so untrustworthy some of the other Son'a thought he was scum. Heck, he murdered Dougherty because Dougherty made a command decision to DELAY the plan.
The whole argument over whether to remove the Ba'ku is nothing but a pointless red herring. Once again Star Trek forgets that it's a PLANET population 600, not a NEIGHBORHOOD population 600. Plop a hospital complex down on another continent and forget the whole thing. And if the Son'a object, that should tell you they have an ulterior motive.
Also, the Son'a weren't going to be completely destroyed if they failed to get 'unnatural exposure' to the radiation.
Actually, they were... As mentioned upthread, I'm sure it was noted that some of the Son'a would not live long enough for natural exposure to reverse their conditions. And, as mentioned directly above, the level of technology the Son'a used, and their involvement in the Dominion war, strongly implies numbers considerably larger than what was seen on screen in Insurrection...
Some. The culture would survive, it is not inextricably tied to any one individual. (Especially since, as you said, their numbers are probably a lot bigger than we saw.)
The whole argument over whether to remove the Ba'ku is nothing but a pointless red herring. Once again Star Trek forgets that it's a PLANET population 600, not a NEIGHBORHOOD population 600. Plop a hospital complex down on another continent and forget the whole thing. And if the Son'a object, that should tell you they have an ulterior motive.
I believe the planet itself would have become uninhabitable, which was why the Ba'ku were being relocated...
And I believe the idea was to replace 'planetary annihilation and destruction of a culture' with 'put a colony somewhere else'. The latter was actually done in a game, Hidden Evil - with the Ba'ku and Starfleet helping the Son'a found a colony post-Insurrection.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
And here's another question: Ru'afo says that some of his people won't survive long enough to use the technobabble to heal. I ask, why should they? What makes the Son'a any more deserving of this unearned immortality than the Ba'ku? They're the same species, so if it isn't the Ba'kus' natural state to be immortal, then it must not be the natural state of the Son'a, either. What's good for the goose is good for the gander and all.
See, there's a reason that covetousness comprises half the list of the seven deadly sins (namely greed, lust, envy, and gluttony). Immortality is nothing but an attractive nuisance: those who have it don't want to share it, and those who don't, want it. Therefore, here's my preferred plan B if the hospital idea isn't feasible for whatever technobabble reason: Resettle the Ba'ku, then issue General Order 24 and glass the planet so NOBODY can use it.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
There was a B5 video game that had a scenario in it where an escape pod with Jha'dur was located somewhere in hyperspace. The various races scramble to recover it and it's one of the more difficult missions in the entire game. At the end of it, though, the Vorlons show up and destroy her escape pod, sending the races a message: "You really are not ready for immortality."
I hate the Vorlons. they remind me of all the worst aspects of the Federation. One of the Space Empires 5 mods is a B5 mod. It has annoying balance issues but someone came up with the idea of doing multiplayer with 2-3 players as Ancient races and all the others playing younger races that work for one of the Ancients. That was loads of fun. I actually played as the Dilgar in at least one of the games. Hehe, they were a kinda cool race, despite being evil.
My point is, it wasn't a bad plan because of the Prime Directive violation (which, as you pointed out, whether it legitimately violates the PD in the first place is questionable). The hell with the Prime Directive. It was a bad plan for far more practical reasons:
I may be misremembering things but IIRC they were treating the technobabble MacGuffin as a non-renewable resource in the movie. Basically they were going to strip-mine the planet, spread it throughout the Federation, and then run out and be right back to square one. But if it's naturally occurring in the planet's natural state, that means wrecking it is the wrong call, killing the golden goose as it were. A more practical, sustainable plan for using the technobabble would be to build a base on the tremendously huge part of the planet the less than a thousand holier-than-thou Luddites couldn't possibly make use of for another millennium or more. A hospital would at least allow the Federation to make continuous use of the technobabble for treating war casualties.
I'd need to re-watch it to be sure... The impression that I took from it, was that the process itself would be ongoing, but you may well be right that they're killing the golden goose... I do agree with you that a hospital on the other side of the planet would have allowed people to benefit from it, although it may still have been inaccessible to some, rather than the technology being brought to the Federation...
Number two, given that, as previously noted, the Son'a are Dominion allies, I frankly wouldn't have trusted them in the first place, not as far as I can throw Earth Spacedock with a running start. Given that the Federation is actively at war with the Dominion at this time, engaging with them with anything other than a photon torpedo barrage is close to high treason on Dougherty's part, avoided only because the Federation Council had for some bizarre reason authorized the plan.
How closely allied the Son'a were to the Dominion at the time of Insurrection is questionable... My personal theory, is that they might have been using their medical technology on a freelance basis as a means if sustaining their economy, and thus approached the Dominion with the aims to doing business. After the destruction of the collector, using metaphasics to restore themselves was no longer an option, so they went all-in with the Dominion (as in DS-9) to then try and benefit from their medical technology, such as their cloning abilities... As Admiral Dougherty said to placate Picard: The Council knew that the Son'a were a bunch of thugs, but (either through arrogance or naïveté) thought that they could handle them... They were wrong, but I can see why they would have thought they could... And because the Council had authorized the plan, it was not treasonous, because he was under orders to work with the Son'a on an agreed upon course of action. When things moved away from that, Admiral Dougherty immediately pulled the plug and got murdered... He had to be severely manipulated and cajoled by Ru'afo even to allow the Son'a ships to 'explain the situation' to Riker...
Basically the entire plot of the movie is at least as poorly thought-out as Nemesis, something Patrick Stewart warned the producers about after getting the script, by the way.
Absolutely so, the plot has more holes than cheesecloth... I didn't know that Sir Patrick had raised warnings about it though, that's interesting to know
This^ All that pompous posturing about the moral high ground ignores the fact that collecting the energy wasn't needed, except for extreme edge cases, which included SOME of the Son'a.
How are all the members of the Federation going to be able to get to the planet to benefit from it? Collecting the radiation and distributing the technology to the Federation, is the logical option...
Heck, not all the Son'a agreed with Ru'afo. Picard stopped Ru'afo because he got help from members of Ru'afo's crew. They realized that Ru'afo was going to killed their families among the Ba'ku due to his petty quest for revenge.
After Picard and co forced Ru'afo's hand and changed the schedule, absolutely so...
And no.... the Feds hadn't fully researched the radiation. They hadn't had enough time to.
Says who? You? Who's to say how long the project had been going on prior to the events seen in Insurrection... Admiral Dougherty said that it had been looked at (maybe even by the best minds in the Federation, although that may be my miss-remembrance) We have to take the duck-blind mission and Data's reassignment as proof that it had been as investigated as thoroughly as required for Starfleet intervention, and that option being considered valid...
Ru'afo was the sort of scum that I would send Kirk to negotiate with. Also for the pre-mission prep I would remind Kirk of that old saying "speak softly and carry a big stick". Heck, Ru'afo was so untrustworthy some of the other Son'a thought he was scum.
For sure, Kirk would have kicked Ru'afo's TRIBBLE... But... He would likely have also given one of his sermons to Anij and Sojef, about their choice to live where they do, to have brought the situation with the Son'a on themselves due to their lack of drive...
Heck, he murdered Dougherty because Dougherty made a command decision to DELAY the plan.
Exactly... That Admiral Dougherty called time on the mission once Ru'afo really overstepped the mark, showed that he was not a conspirator of Ru'afo's plan (regardless of what a post-written eu novel may present) but someone who, through Human naïveté, thought he was acting in the best interest of following his orders, got the wool pulled over his eyes by Ru'afo, and then murdered for it...
Some. The culture would survive, it is not inextricably tied to any one individual. (Especially since, as you said, their numbers are probably a lot bigger than we saw.)
I know that the Ba'ku said 'a handful' had chosen to leave, but as mentioned above, I think their words have to be taken with a huge degree of scepticism. Given that they conquered not just one, but two species, that takes way more than just 'a handful' of people and ships... I suspect the amount of Son'a was a lot bigger than we saw...
It seemed quite clear that Ru'afo hoped to destroy them, one way or another.
I'm wondering, if Ru'afo's plan might really have been, to let the Ba'ku be beamed aboard the holoship, then destroy it on its way out of the Briar Patch...
And I believe the idea was to replace 'planetary annihilation and destruction of a culture' with 'put a colony somewhere else'. The latter was actually done in a game, Hidden Evil - with the Ba'ku and Starfleet helping the Son'a found a colony post-Insurrection.
And here's another question: Ru'afo says that some of his people won't survive long enough to use the technobabble to heal. I ask, why should they? What makes the Son'a any more deserving of this unearned immortality than the Ba'ku? They're the same species, so if it isn't the Ba'kus' natural state to be immortal, then it must not be the natural state of the Son'a, either. What's good for the goose is good for the gander and all.
See, there's a reason that covetousness comprises half the list of the seven deadly sins (namely greed, lust, envy, and gluttony). Immortality is nothing but an attractive nuisance: those who have it don't want to share it, and those who don't, want it. Therefore, here's my preferred plan B if the hospital idea isn't feasible for whatever technobabble reason: Resettle the Ba'ku, then issue General Order 24 and glass the planet so NOBODY can use it.
This seems apropos:
The Son'a might not have been looking for immortality per se, just to restore them to their pre-Son'a existence...
I like the idea of Plan B... Keeps it fair all round... It's a bit like treating the Ba'ku like long-term unemployed who need to return to work
But the Son'a apparently didn't want that, they just wanted to wipe out the folks who kicked them off the planet centuries ago.
Ahh, but they didn't... If they did, they wouldn't've been using the isolinear tags to just beam people up, but phaser/disruptor drones instead...
Not all the Son'a wanted the Ba'ku dead, just some of them, most notably Ru'afo.
How closely allied the Son'a were to the Dominion at the time of Insurrection is questionable... My personal theory, is that they might have been using their medical technology on a freelance basis as a means if sustaining their economy, and thus approached the Dominion with the aims to doing business. After the destruction of the collector, using metaphasics to restore themselves was no longer an option, so they went all-in with the Dominion (as in DS-9) to then try and benefit from their medical technology, such as their cloning abilities...
The collector was constructed AFTER the Dominion war. Yes, this was shown in the movie. When Riker looked up the Son'a in the database he talked about the Dominion war in the past tense.
This^ All that pompous posturing about the moral high ground ignores the fact that collecting the energy wasn't needed, except for extreme edge cases, which included SOME of the Son'a.
How are all the members of the Federation going to be able to get to the planet to benefit from it? Collecting the radiation and distributing the technology to the Federation, is the logical option...
Realistically? you're nuts if you think you could use it on everyone in the entire Federation.
Ru'afo was the sort of scum that I would send Kirk to negotiate with. Also for the pre-mission prep I would remind Kirk of that old saying "speak softly and carry a big stick". Heck, Ru'afo was so untrustworthy some of the other Son'a thought he was scum.
For sure, Kirk would have kicked Ru'afo's TRIBBLE... But... He would likely have also given one of his sermons to Anij and Sojef, about their choice to live where they do, to have brought the situation with the Son'a on themselves due to their lack of drive...
"lack of drive"? Isn't "drive" what caused them to flee the civil war on their homeworld? Or did you forget Anij's explanation for why they left their homeworld?
Some. The culture would survive, it is not inextricably tied to any one individual. (Especially since, as you said, their numbers are probably a lot bigger than we saw.)
I know that the Ba'ku said 'a handful' had chosen to leave, but as mentioned above, I think their words have to be taken with a huge degree of scepticism. Given that they conquered not just one, but two species, that takes way more than just 'a handful' of people and ships... I suspect the amount of Son'a was a lot bigger than we saw...
1: there was nothing preventing natural reproduction among the Son'a. At least not until they started trying to artificially extend their lives.
2: Their slaves were from 2 pre-warp civilizations they conquered. It's easy to conquer people who can't even understand your tech.
As mentioned above, even if this was to be considered as an early application of the pre-Prime Directive, due to the Valakian's existing contact with extra-planetary life, that would (IMHO) negate their lack of warp drive as the criteria for making contact, in so much as, by 24th/25th Century terms, the Prime Directive prohibition of making contact would either i) not apply, or ii) could be strongly argued as not applicable by a captain who responded to a distress call... Also, the Federation was weak in hiding behind the Prime Directive... Both as a whole, when it did not render aid to end the Cardassian occupation of Bajor*, and in the individual, as I cited above, when Picard refused to get involved in the Klingon civil war, despite being asked for assistance by the man who's name he was prepared to drop when it suited his[Picard's] needs...
The Prime Directive is actually about non-interference in general. It is most often cited as the reason why the Federation does not contact or uplift pre-Warp capable worlds; however it has been applied numerous times to cite the reason why the Federation doesn't interfere even in post-Warp species' affairs unless those affairs directly conflict with the Federation.
Hence why the Federation didn't help the Bajorans, yes; also why they generally don't trouble themselves to interfere with Klingon or Romulan affairs unless directly asked to by the Klingon or Romulan governments. And yes, it's subverted on many an occasion, but like I said, if the Prime Directive is gonna exist at all, then sooner or later we need to have a captain who actually follows it, or else it really serves no narrative purpose.
Which I would now compare to the current situation in Syria, where The Allies are taking direct action against IS on the ground in Syria, not sitting around at the UN, wringing their hands, and saying "Well we'd like to help, but it's an internal affair..."
Syria is...complex. Turkish, American, French, and Russian desires do not coincide. Although having said that the thing that got me banned from alternatehistory.com was espousing that a larger and more unified front needs to be developed against Radicalized Islam as a whole and not simply ISIS, which is simply its latest iteration.
However, that's not the point. Personally I've never been in favor of the Prime Directive as a principal; however, from a narrative standpoint, it exists, and needs to be followed if it's going to have any meaning.
In the 23rd Century, the UFP routinely contacted pre-warp societies. As long as there was no contamination, and regulations followed, it was kosher. The whole "gotta have warp drive" drivel came along later in the franchise.
It's the same thing. Ru'afo was centuries old. His hideous deformities were the results of trying to extend his lifespan indefinitely.
Indeed they were the result of his attempts to extend his lifespan, but it's not the same thing, for this reason: Immortality is something Ru'afo had had, and lost due to his leaving the planet... It's not as if he was 'trying to get' something he'd never had...
The collector was constructed AFTER the Dominion war. Yes, this was shown in the movie. When Riker looked up the Son'a in the database he talked about the Dominion war in the past tense.
Fair enough, and yes, Riker did say that... I miss-remembered, and thought that the DS-9 reference came second...
Realistically? you're nuts if you think you could use it on everyone in the entire Federation.
So much for considering alternate opinions and perspectives... It just depends on the application... From what Admiral Dougherty said about medical science, I took that to mean that metaphasics would be distributed throughout hospitals... People don't tend to undergo blood dialysis, chemotherapy or major surgery in their own homes*
2: Their slaves were from 2 pre-warp civilizations they conquered. It's easy to conquer people who can't even understand your tech.
We're a pre-warp civilization, and I don't believe that five (a literal handful, as per Anij) people with a starship would be able to completely subjugate mankind... Snatch a handful of people to use as slaves, sure, but completely overcome the global populace? I think not... I forget the speed and resources used in the Psychlo occupation of Earth, but I think it was more than 'a handful' of people... Which raises another aspect... Once Jonnie Goodboy Tyler learned how to use Psychlo technology, he was able to lead a rebellion. (the same goes for the Kazon and the Trabe) The Ellora and the Tarlac were able to use Son'a technology, yet they didn't revolt against the Son'a, all they actually did at the end, was turn on Ru'afo...
*Home births are pretty much the exception, and even that is considered 'backward' and strange by some...
Ah the Baku debate, I always hated how that played out... it felt so out of character for Picard.
In TNG's final season there was a scenario almost exactly like that, where Picard was ordered to relocate colonists by force if necessary. Wesley had objected and interfered with the Enterprise's attempts to abduct the colonists against their will and Picard chewed him out for it. Turn around a couple movies later and Picard is taking the opposing stance while flirting with one of the locals. That wasn't the Picard we knew from TNG, that Picard would have helped with the plan without even a single objection and it would have been up to others to step up and confront him about the morality of it.
Not to mention the entire thing is predicated on the poorly fleshed out belief that the Baku are inherently good and deserving of such rescue. These are the same 600 people who refused to share a planet with their own children after a minor squabble about what level of technology they should use. The simple fact that the Son'a were forced off the planet also says a lot about the methods the Baku are willing to use. People don't just leave because you tell them to, there had to have been some manner of dangerous threat to accomplish that.
Ah the Baku debate, I always hated how that played out... it felt so out of character for Picard.
In TNG's final season there was a scenario almost exactly like that, where Picard was ordered to relocate colonists by force if necessary. Wesley had objected and interfered with the Enterprise's attempts to abduct the colonists against their will and Picard chewed him out for it. Turn around a couple movies later and Picard is taking the opposing stance while flirting with one of the locals. That wasn't the Picard we knew from TNG, that Picard would have helped with the plan without even a single objection and it would have been up to others to step up and confront him about the morality of it.
Not to mention the entire thing is predicated on the poorly fleshed out belief that the Baku are inherently good and deserving of such rescue. These are the same 600 people who refused to share a planet with their own children after a minor squabble about what level of technology they should use. The simple fact that the Son'a were forced off the planet also says a lot about the methods the Baku are willing to use. People don't just leave because you tell them to, there had to have been some manner of dangerous threat to accomplish that.
No, that's not it at all.
The Son'a CHOSE to leave. Much like rebellious teenagers actually. It was kinda like this: "But daddy I don't want to do things your way!" "Well, son, when it's your house you can make the rules." "Fine then!" *leaves*
The Ba'ku situation was very different for one very important reason, ownership of the planet. The planet in TNG was owned by the Cardassians. The Ba'ku planet was not actually owned by the Federation. Thus for the Feds to assume control meant seizing it by force from it's legitimate owners, the Ba'ku.
In the 23rd Century, the UFP routinely contacted pre-warp societies. As long as there was no contamination, and regulations followed, it was kosher. The whole "gotta have warp drive" drivel came along later in the franchise.
A good example of the Federation deliberately opening relations with pre-spaceflight societies happens in "Friday's Child"--the Federation wants the rights to mine for Topaline, and deals with the leaders of the tribe that claims the land in question, but then must stop a coup d'etat in order to keep the deal alive.
And here's another question: Ru'afo says that some of his people won't survive long enough to use the technobabble to heal. I ask, why should they? What makes the Son'a any more deserving of this unearned immortality than the Ba'ku? They're the same species, so if it isn't the Ba'kus' natural state to be immortal, then it must not be the natural state of the Son'a, either. What's good for the goose is good for the gander and all.
See, there's a reason that covetousness comprises half the list of the seven deadly sins (namely greed, lust, envy, and gluttony). Immortality is nothing but an attractive nuisance: those who have it don't want to share it, and those who don't, want it. Therefore, here's my preferred plan B if the hospital idea isn't feasible for whatever technobabble reason: Resettle the Ba'ku, then issue General Order 24 and glass the planet so NOBODY can use it.
This seems apropos:
The Son'a might not have been looking for immortality per se, just to restore them to their pre-Son'a existence...
... which was immortality, or more specifically eternal early thirties. You're missing the point. If, as you say, the Ba'ku shouldn't have it, why should the Son'a? Why should anybody?
I think the real moral of Insurrection doesn't have anything to do with either the needs of the many over the few, or what kind of society of two diametrically opposed options is better. It's that trying to live forever turns you into an TRIBBLE. The Ba'ku want to be Luddites? Let 'em. Are they TRIBBLE? Sure, but minus the MacGuffin they're living in the middle of, they're TRIBBLE who are completely irrelevant to Federation foreign policy precisely because they're Luddites and couldn't do a thing about the warp-capable superstate flying half-mile-long starships over their heads even if they wanted to. Not only would leaving well enough alone be more in keeping with supposed Federation principles than yet more arrogant cultural intolerance ("you have to live this way because it's RIGHT AND GOOD because we say so"), but from practical standpoint the Federation's resources are better spent rebuilding from the Dominion War using existing technology than chasing after immortality boondoggles with -- this cannot be repeated enough -- those who willingly aided and abetted the murder of billions of innocent people less than two years earlier.
I like the idea of Plan B... Keeps it fair all round... It's a bit like treating the Ba'ku like long-term unemployed who need to return to work
Okay, you can stop right TRIBBLE there; there is zero comparison between a bunch of immortal Luddites and long-term unemployed in a technological society. I've been long-term unemployed, only managed to get back to work last year, three goddamn years post-graduation, after the economy in my area finally improved to where they were hiring and keeping entry-level electricians. We don't live in Star Trek's 24th century where you only work if you want to. The amount of people who are willingly long-term unemployed for reasons other than parenthood or age is a hell of a lot less than the amount who legitimately can't find work because the jobs aren't there. There's even a technical term, "structural unemployment", for the amount of people who are always going to be left in the lurch because there are always more applicants than jobs.
It's especially hard if, like me, you're at the very beginning of your career and have little work history in the middle of the worst recession since the 1930s. Bonus points if you have psychiatric issues that wreck your people skills and disqualify you from military service (I'm high-functioning autistic). And if you TRIBBLE up one time? Kthxbye, there's a dozen people behind you because the unemployment rate in your age group is knocking on the door of 20%. No, I'm not exaggerating in the slightest: Roughly May, I was fired after one day because they were "expecting somebody with more experience" without bothering to account for the fact that I hadn't worked a night shift in months and had only gotten the job that afternoon. And I couldn't afford to look for work someplace else, either, because that would require money, which I didn't have because I couldn't find work!
You wanna talk unemployment? The episode you should be thinking of is DS9: "Past Tense", not Insurrection.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
YEah, you can't compare them like that because they provide for themselves everything they need.... and they actually do have tech they can use if they choose to,
HFA and 50+ kind of sucks too, especially when you were in your thirties before your diagnosis even existed, and approaching 45 before anyone acknowledged adults could still have that going on. Lots of short-term experience, mostly in fields that I absolutely hate (like telephone customer service, which my wife won't even let me attempt any more; apparently the moods I was coming home in made her concerned that I was going to go postal sometime soon). And nobody wants to hire anyone my age without a "stable work history", even though if I had a stable work history, I wouldn't be looking for work at my age, now would I?
The Son'a CHOSE to leave. Much like rebellious teenagers actually. It was kinda like this: "But daddy I don't want to do things your way!" "Well, son, when it's your house you can make the rules." "Fine then!" *leaves*
The Ba'ku situation was very different for one very important reason, ownership of the planet. The planet in TNG was owned by the Cardassians. The Ba'ku planet was not actually owned by the Federation. Thus for the Feds to assume control meant seizing it by force from it's legitimate owners, the Ba'ku.
That is certainly what the plot would have us believe. And to be honest, you may well be right, but, as noted above, the plot is full of holes, which Sir Patrick apparently pointed out... And as mentioned above, things like the Son's referenced involvement with the Dominion and conquering two species suggesting much higher numbers than either seen on screen, or insinuated by the Ba'ku. That, makes everything and anything they say suspect and questionable. And when the plot is that full of holes, interpretations can be more flexible...
The Ba'ku situation was very different for one very important reason, ownership of the planet. The planet in TNG was owned by the Cardassians. The Ba'ku planet was not actually owned by the Federation. Thus for the Feds to assume control meant seizing it by force from it's legitimate owners, the Ba'ku.
The real difference, is that Plot dictated Picard wanted to get involved in the Ba'ku situation, when he previously would have avoided helping Sarjenka's people, the Boraalans (when Nikolai Rozhenko was involved) the Klingon civil war (despite his own personal standing and official position within the Klingon Empire as Gowron's arbiter of succession) and the colonists who became the Maquis...
... which was immortality, or more specifically eternal early thirties. You're missing the point. If, as you say, the Ba'ku shouldn't have it, why should the Son'a? Why should anybody?
No, you're missing the point of what I'm saying. I'm saying (than in my opinion) the Ba'ku should not have it if they're just going to squander it, by keeping not just immortality for themselves, but the fruits of their labours (ie their handicrafts) to themselves. It should be shared by everyone or no one... The really sad thing, is that I'm finding it easier to defend and rationalize the Son'a, than I can justify the Ba'ku... You can agree/disagree all you like, that's your privilege, but that is my interpretation of Insurrection...
Not only would leaving well enough alone be more in keeping with supposed Federation principles than yet more arrogant cultural intolerance ("you have to live this way because it's RIGHT AND GOOD because we say so")
And that, is touching back onto the issue with the Valakians and the Menk: If it would have been right to have stayed away from the Ba'ku, it was right for Archer to have stayed away from the Valakians... The Valakians requested help, they should have received it.
To hold onto the Son'a alliance with the Dominion during a war, is nothing more than being petty grudge-holding... The Klingon Empire have had a much longer and more directly antagonist relationship to the Federation, yet they also had a significant period of peace (until plot dictated they become enemies again) (*Which gives me a thought which I'll detail below...) Once war ends, viewpoints shift, alliances change, and things change, which brings me to the next part of that point;
but from practical standpoint the Federation's resources are better spent rebuilding from the Dominion War using existing technology than chasing after immortality boondoggles with -- this cannot be repeated enough -- those who willingly aided and abetted the murder of billions of innocent people less than two years earlier.
Metaphasic technology would potentially heal the wounded more completely than the existing technology. I say potentially, because as we saw, the effects of the metaphasic regeneration was transient. However, the plot point is that the Council were presumably told it could have been permanent effects (why else would they expend the resources of the duck-blind mission) In their opinion, it was an avenue worth exploring. But as mentioned, the plot has considerable flaws, making it harder to weigh the relative merits of either party...
Okay, you can stop right TRIBBLE there; there is zero comparison between a bunch of immortal Luddites and long-term unemployed in a technological society. I've been long-term unemployed, only managed to get back to work last year, three goddamn years post-graduation, after the economy in my area finally improved to where they were hiring and keeping entry-level electricians. We don't live in Star Trek's 24th century where you only work if you want to. The amount of people who are willingly long-term unemployed for reasons other than parenthood or age is a hell of a lot less than the amount who legitimately can't find work because the jobs aren't there. There's even a technical term, "structural unemployment", for the amount of people who are always going to be left in the lurch because there are always more applicants than jobs.
It's especially hard if, like me, you're at the very beginning of your career and have little work history in the middle of the worst recession since the 1930s. Bonus points if you have psychiatric issues that wreck your people skills and disqualify you from military service (I'm high-functioning autistic). And if you TRIBBLE up one time? Kthxbye, there's a dozen people behind you because the unemployment rate in your age group is knocking on the door of 20%. No, I'm not exaggerating in the slightest: Roughly May, I was fired after one day because they were "expecting somebody with more experience" without bothering to account for the fact that I hadn't worked a night shift in months and had only gotten the job that afternoon. And I couldn't afford to look for work someplace else, either, because that would require money, which I didn't have because I couldn't find work!
You wanna talk unemployment? The episode you should be thinking of is DS9: "Past Tense", not Insurrection.
Due to that, I will clarify: when I said 'long-term unemployed', I was using a euphemism for benefit-monkeys -- the people who do not, and will not work, because the state supports them and their illiterate offspring -- not people who are simply 'out of work' through economic/medical/work-force-related issues (which, without putting my personal business on public forum, I am more than sympathetic to...) It was meant as a joke (hence winky face) so if you're offended by that, well, sorry you feel that way... Anything else, I'm simply not prepared to get into...
[Edit to add]
I forgot...
*
Had The Drumhead focussed on some infraction of Worf's (such as when he messed up while in command of the Defiant) and delved into a regular character, rather than an unknown liek Simon Tarses, it could have been a much more powerful and insightful episode...
... which was immortality, or more specifically eternal early thirties. You're missing the point. If, as you say, the Ba'ku shouldn't have it, why should the Son'a? Why should anybody?
No, you're missing the point of what I'm saying. I'm saying (than in my opinion) the Ba'ku should not have it if they're just going to squander it, by keeping not just immortality for themselves, but the fruits of their labours (ie their handicrafts) to themselves. It should be shared by everyone or no one... The really sad thing, is that I'm finding it easier to defend and rationalize the Son'a, than I can justify the Ba'ku... You can agree/disagree all you like, that's your privilege, but that is my interpretation of Insurrection...
I'm just going to tell you to either debate based on evidence or shut up. Ignoring what was ACTUALLY said in the TV show and replacing it with some head-canon where the good guys are secretly the bad guys... THAT is what you're doing, and seems to be the sole justification of your hatred and vilification of the Ba'ku.
Due to that, I will clarify: when I said 'long-term unemployed', I was using a euphemism for benefit-monkeys -- the people who do not, and will not work, because the state supports them and their illiterate offspring
Which applies to WHO? Not the Ba'ku(they make all of the stuff they use), not the Son'a(though much of what they do is herding slaves, and not actual work), which leaves the Federation.
-- not people who are simply 'out of work' through economic/medical/work-force-related issues (which, without putting my personal business on public forum, I am more than sympathetic to...) It was meant as a joke (hence winky face) so if you're offended by that, well, sorry you feel that way... Anything else, I'm simply not prepared to get into...
An illiterate joke worthy of nothing but derision.
Had The Drumhead focussed on some infraction of Worf's (such as when he messed up while in command of the Defiant) and delved into a regular character, rather than an unknown liek Simon Tarses, it could have been a much more powerful and insightful episode...
You seemed to be missing the point. The point was that there was no actual reason to suspect Tarses at all. Tarses had a spotless Starfleet record and was only questioned in detail because the telepath thought he was hiding something, even with no idea WHAT he was hiding.
I'm just going to tell you to either debate based on evidence or shut up. Ignoring what was ACTUALLY said in the TV show and replacing it with some head-canon where the good guys are secretly the bad guys... THAT is what you're doing, and seems to be the sole justification of your hatred and vilification of the Ba'ku.
Says the person who repeatedly injects own head-canon species into debates? Do shut up, you hypocrite... Others upthread have also acknowledged that the activities of the Son'a implies significantly greater numbers than the Ba'ku suggest left, or what Insurrection showed. Others upthread (who my comment was actually addressed to) have also pointed out that the plot, had flaws which one of the franchise's principle actors apparently drew attention to, so no, I am not inserting head-canon at all simply giving an interpretation of the existing material which you do not agree with.
Which applies to WHO? Not the Ba'ku(they make all of the stuff they use), not the Son'a(though much of what they do is herding slaves, and not actual work), which leaves the Federation.
Yes, actually, the Ba'ku... A people in social stasis who do nothing of value beyond metabolise, and as another poster pointed out, were unwilling the share the planet with their own children when they disagreed with their frankly stagnant way of life.
An illiterate joke worthy of nothing but derision.
Illiterate... When we're communicating through the shared medium of written language... Not quite grasped the meaning of the word 'illiterate' have you... Sick burn...
You seemed to be missing the point. The point was that there was no actual reason to suspect Tarses at all. Tarses had a spotless Starfleet record and was only questioned in detail because the telepath thought he was hiding something, even with no idea WHAT he was hiding.
Oh I get that that was the point of the episode... What you seem to be missing the point of, is that Tarses was a franchise non-entity. The point, was that the episode would have been much more powerful, had it focussed on an already-established character. As with starsword, who my comment was addressed to: you're free to disagree with me, but I'm getting more than a bit sick of you questioning my opinions, and rejecting my explanations simply because you don't agree with them, and resort to tired ad hominem when I point out the flaws in your assumptions and hyperbole...
I'm just going to tell you to either debate based on evidence or shut up. Ignoring what was ACTUALLY said in the TV show and replacing it with some head-canon where the good guys are secretly the bad guys... THAT is what you're doing, and seems to be the sole justification of your hatred and vilification of the Ba'ku.
Says the person who repeatedly injects own head-canon species into debates? Do shut up, you hypocrite...
What are you talking about?
Others upthread have also acknowledged that the activities of the Son'a implies significantly greater numbers than the Ba'ku suggest left, or what Insurrection showed. Others upthread (who my comment was actually addressed to) have also pointed out that the plot, had flaws which one of the franchise's principle actors apparently drew attention to
You keep talking about that but you don't even say WHAT Patrick considered to be a flaw. Do you even know?
, so no, I am not inserting head-canon at all simply giving an interpretation of the existing material which you do not agree with.
No, you are going FAR beyond an alternate interpretation. You are using personal biases to distort what was said in the movie to be the opposite of what it actually was. Seriously.... You actually expect me to believe that the same people who didn't even have any weapons to defend their village were somehow capable of violently expelling people from the planet IN SPACE SHIPS? Not buying it. Why? Because your "interpretation" drastically conflicts with the actual movie. Therefore, from an objective POV, your interpretation is wrong.
An illiterate joke worthy of nothing but derision.
Illiterate... When we're communicating through the shared medium of written language... Not quite grasped the meaning of the word 'illiterate' have you...
It's very illiterate to not even understand the meaning of a word well enough to know IF it applies to the context in which you try to use it. You act as if the word "un-employed" fits the Ba'ku. But the correct term is self-employed. the Ba'ku made all of their own food and materials, they did not rely on receiving aid from any outside source. Therefore they can not be "benefit-monkeys".
Marcus, I'm willing to consider some of your arguments. But the fact is, you are getting steamrolled here. At this point, repeatedly so.
Also, I find it ironic that you use phrases like 'Do shut up, you hypocrite' and 'Sick burn' (I think you meant 'bum'?) while at the same time dismissing markhawkman's arguments as ad hominems. It's making you look bad, more so since you make yourself look like the exact same thing you're accusing others of being.
You're also getting pretty worked up over this debate. All of you. Better calm down before a moderator decides it's gone too far.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
No, he meant "burn". Usually, though, a "sick burn" has to be called by a third party, otherwise it comes across as bragging.
And while I'm not going to subject myself to that movie again (twice was twice too many, in my opinion), I certainly saw nothing to suggest that the Ba'ku were anything more than a society of lotus-eaters, luddites rejecting technology because it jest ain't natural. Their little idyll was made possible only by the fact that they were hoarding this energy supply of theirs, refusing to share with anyone (to the point they couldn't even coexist on the same planet as their rebellious children. A planet's a pretty doggone big place, you know.) The Son'a we saw weren't a lot better, would-be imperials who lacked the personal energy to actually build an empire so looked to swipe one instead. Personally, I thought the winning move here would have been to remove all Federation ships and outposts from the entire region and let them settle matters between themselves.
On a side note, the characterization of certain people as "benefit monkeys" is frankly offensive. Perhaps matters are different in the UK, but the only place I've ever encountered poor people who were content to simply sit on their laurels and collect public benefits were in anecdotes related by right-wingers ranting about how terrible poor people are. Are you under the impression that welfare and food stamps provide anywhere near enough to live comfortably? If that were the case, there wouldn't be anyone willing to work for the current pitiful Federal minimum wage in the States. (And I've been there. I worked as a janitor in a Dairy Queen for three months in order to get out of that.)
The times you've referenced the head-canon species in your avatar during discussion of canon species and other topics other than 'discuss your head-canon species'.
You keep talking about that but you don't even say WHAT Patrick considered to be a flaw. Do you even know?
I didn't know Sir Patrick pointed out issues with the script until starsword mentioned it upthread, so no, I don't know what he considered to be a flaw.
No, you are going FAR beyond an alternate interpretation. You are using personal biases to distort what was said in the movie to be the opposite of what it actually was.
I disagree. The points I have made, are all supported by in-verse material, both from the movie itself, and the DS-9 episode (which I don't immediately recall) where the Son'a are apparently mentioned as Dominion allies/facilitators. Their interaction with the Dominion, implies significantly greater numbers, capabilities and facilities, than the 'scorned nomads' which Insurrection introduced and portrayed them as before the Big Reveal...
Picard behaves in an extremely out-of-character manner compared to the instances I cited above, and will not waste time repeating. I also know that the plot has numerous holes in it, and it is those holes, which reduce the credibility of the piece as a work of fiction. The inconsistency of statements made in the film makes them questionable, and that as a piece, the 'plot' cannot be taken purely at face-viewing, and when analysed deeper, becomes even more flawed.
Seriously.... You actually expect me to believe that the same people who didn't even have any weapons to defend their village were somehow capable of violently expelling people from the planet IN SPACE SHIPS? Not buying it. Why? Because your "interpretation" drastically conflicts with the actual movie. Therefore, from an objective POV, your interpretation is wrong.
That theory was not actually mine, but lordrezeon's, but let's examine it for a moment:
Established fact:
The Ba'ku were not indigenous to the planet, and had arrived there from somewhere else, in space ships. Are we agreed thus far?
Conjecture:
When 'the young people left to follow the ways of the off-landers', they did so in the ships which had delivered them to the planet.
Is that implausible beyond consideration?
Is it implausible to consider that the Ba'ku 'drove the young people away' figuratively, if not literally?
Is it implausible to consider (given the Son'a relationship with the Dominion) that the Son'a have greater facilities and resources to those seen in Insurrection?
Is it implausible to consider (considering that they conquered two entire races) that the Son'a maintain those facilities and resources, with greater numbers than those seen in Insurrection?
Are those points, based on what was shown in Insurrection and DS-9, absolutely implausible?
Established fact:
The Ba'ku were disingenuous about their existence, their relationship and the Fountain of Youth.
IMHO, that makes them unreliable narrators, and anything they say becomes questionable.
It's very illiterate to not even understand the meaning of a word well enough to know IF it applies to the context in which you try to use it. You act as if the word "un-employed" fits the Ba'ku. But the correct term is self-employed. the Ba'ku made all of their own food and materials, they did not rely on receiving aid from any outside source. Therefore they can not be "benefit-monkeys".
Illiterate: Unable to read and write...
I may have made a less-than-gramatically-correct off-the-cuff remark, but I am not illiterate, and resent the accusation. It was a joke, nothing more, nothing less, about the Ba'ku's stagnation, and had I known starsword's circumstances, (even though the comparison was not aimed at them in any way) I would likely not have made it...
Marcus, I'm willing to consider some of your arguments. But the fact is, you are getting steamrolled here. At this point, repeatedly so.
Also, I find it ironic that you use phrases like 'Do shut up, you hypocrite' and 'Sick burn' (I think you meant 'bum'?) while at the same time dismissing markhawkman's arguments as ad hominems. It's making you look bad, more so since you make yourself look like the exact same thing you're accusing others of being.
You're also getting pretty worked up over this debate. All of you. Better calm down before a moderator decides it's gone too far.
You're absolutely right there, thank you for being a voice of reason
Comments
But the Son'a apparently didn't want that, they just wanted to wipe out the folks who kicked them off the planet centuries ago. Nice going, Dougherty.
About the only reasonable rationale I can think of is, maybe the Son'a promised to pull support of the Dominion if the Federation helped them.
Basically the entire plot of the movie is at least as poorly thought-out as Nemesis, something Patrick Stewart warned the producers about after getting the script, by the way.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
THAT was the reason the collector was used. As Starsword said, if you want to use it to treat people, you can relocate them to the planet. And no.... the Feds hadn't fully researched the radiation. They hadn't had enough time to.
Ru'afo was the sort of scum that I would send Kirk to negotiate with. Also for the pre-mission prep I would remind Kirk of that old saying "speak softly and carry a big stick". Heck, Ru'afo was so untrustworthy some of the other Son'a thought he was scum. Heck, he murdered Dougherty because Dougherty made a command decision to DELAY the plan.
My character Tsin'xing
Pretty much.
Some. The culture would survive, it is not inextricably tied to any one individual. (Especially since, as you said, their numbers are probably a lot bigger than we saw.)
It seemed quite clear that Ru'afo hoped to destroy them, one way or another.
And I believe the idea was to replace 'planetary annihilation and destruction of a culture' with 'put a colony somewhere else'. The latter was actually done in a game, Hidden Evil - with the Ba'ku and Starfleet helping the Son'a found a colony post-Insurrection.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
See, there's a reason that covetousness comprises half the list of the seven deadly sins (namely greed, lust, envy, and gluttony). Immortality is nothing but an attractive nuisance: those who have it don't want to share it, and those who don't, want it. Therefore, here's my preferred plan B if the hospital idea isn't feasible for whatever technobabble reason: Resettle the Ba'ku, then issue General Order 24 and glass the planet so NOBODY can use it.
This seems apropos:
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
There was a B5 video game that had a scenario in it where an escape pod with Jha'dur was located somewhere in hyperspace. The various races scramble to recover it and it's one of the more difficult missions in the entire game. At the end of it, though, the Vorlons show up and destroy her escape pod, sending the races a message: "You really are not ready for immortality."
My character Tsin'xing
Ahh, but they didn't... If they did, they wouldn't've been using the isolinear tags to just beam people up, but phaser/disruptor drones instead...
Ru'afo's plan, not the Admiral's...
How closely allied the Son'a were to the Dominion at the time of Insurrection is questionable... My personal theory, is that they might have been using their medical technology on a freelance basis as a means if sustaining their economy, and thus approached the Dominion with the aims to doing business. After the destruction of the collector, using metaphasics to restore themselves was no longer an option, so they went all-in with the Dominion (as in DS-9) to then try and benefit from their medical technology, such as their cloning abilities... As Admiral Dougherty said to placate Picard: The Council knew that the Son'a were a bunch of thugs, but (either through arrogance or naïveté) thought that they could handle them... They were wrong, but I can see why they would have thought they could... And because the Council had authorized the plan, it was not treasonous, because he was under orders to work with the Son'a on an agreed upon course of action. When things moved away from that, Admiral Dougherty immediately pulled the plug and got murdered... He had to be severely manipulated and cajoled by Ru'afo even to allow the Son'a ships to 'explain the situation' to Riker...
Absolutely so, the plot has more holes than cheesecloth... I didn't know that Sir Patrick had raised warnings about it though, that's interesting to know
After Picard and co forced Ru'afo's hand and changed the schedule, absolutely so...
See above...
Says who? You? Who's to say how long the project had been going on prior to the events seen in Insurrection... Admiral Dougherty said that it had been looked at (maybe even by the best minds in the Federation, although that may be my miss-remembrance) We have to take the duck-blind mission and Data's reassignment as proof that it had been as investigated as thoroughly as required for Starfleet intervention, and that option being considered valid...
For sure, Kirk would have kicked Ru'afo's TRIBBLE... But... He would likely have also given one of his sermons to Anij and Sojef, about their choice to live where they do, to have brought the situation with the Son'a on themselves due to their lack of drive...
Exactly... That Admiral Dougherty called time on the mission once Ru'afo really overstepped the mark, showed that he was not a conspirator of Ru'afo's plan (regardless of what a post-written eu novel may present) but someone who, through Human naïveté, thought he was acting in the best interest of following his orders, got the wool pulled over his eyes by Ru'afo, and then murdered for it...
I'm wondering, if Ru'afo's plan might really have been, to let the Ba'ku be beamed aboard the holoship, then destroy it on its way out of the Briar Patch...
Cool
I like the idea of Plan B...
2: Their slaves were from 2 pre-warp civilizations they conquered. It's easy to conquer people who can't even understand your tech.
My character Tsin'xing
In the 23rd Century, the UFP routinely contacted pre-warp societies. As long as there was no contamination, and regulations followed, it was kosher. The whole "gotta have warp drive" drivel came along later in the franchise.
True...
Fair enough, and yes, Riker did say that... I miss-remembered, and thought that the DS-9 reference came second...
So much for considering alternate opinions and perspectives... It just depends on the application... From what Admiral Dougherty said about medical science, I took that to mean that metaphasics would be distributed throughout hospitals... People don't tend to undergo blood dialysis, chemotherapy or major surgery in their own homes*
And then no further ongoing development... Lack of drive...
'Forget', no... 'disbelieve', and 'view with scepticism' due to other information, absolutely...
Actually, there is, but as it's a deleted scene, I'm loathe to actually mention it...
We're a pre-warp civilization, and I don't believe that five (a literal handful, as per Anij) people with a starship would be able to completely subjugate mankind... Snatch a handful of people to use as slaves, sure, but completely overcome the global populace? I think not... I forget the speed and resources used in the Psychlo occupation of Earth, but I think it was more than 'a handful' of people... Which raises another aspect... Once Jonnie Goodboy Tyler learned how to use Psychlo technology, he was able to lead a rebellion. (the same goes for the Kazon and the Trabe) The Ellora and the Tarlac were able to use Son'a technology, yet they didn't revolt against the Son'a, all they actually did at the end, was turn on Ru'afo...
*Home births are pretty much the exception, and even that is considered 'backward' and strange by some...
In TNG's final season there was a scenario almost exactly like that, where Picard was ordered to relocate colonists by force if necessary. Wesley had objected and interfered with the Enterprise's attempts to abduct the colonists against their will and Picard chewed him out for it. Turn around a couple movies later and Picard is taking the opposing stance while flirting with one of the locals. That wasn't the Picard we knew from TNG, that Picard would have helped with the plan without even a single objection and it would have been up to others to step up and confront him about the morality of it.
Not to mention the entire thing is predicated on the poorly fleshed out belief that the Baku are inherently good and deserving of such rescue. These are the same 600 people who refused to share a planet with their own children after a minor squabble about what level of technology they should use. The simple fact that the Son'a were forced off the planet also says a lot about the methods the Baku are willing to use. People don't just leave because you tell them to, there had to have been some manner of dangerous threat to accomplish that.
The Son'a CHOSE to leave. Much like rebellious teenagers actually. It was kinda like this: "But daddy I don't want to do things your way!" "Well, son, when it's your house you can make the rules." "Fine then!" *leaves*
The Ba'ku situation was very different for one very important reason, ownership of the planet. The planet in TNG was owned by the Cardassians. The Ba'ku planet was not actually owned by the Federation. Thus for the Feds to assume control meant seizing it by force from it's legitimate owners, the Ba'ku.
My character Tsin'xing
A good example of the Federation deliberately opening relations with pre-spaceflight societies happens in "Friday's Child"--the Federation wants the rights to mine for Topaline, and deals with the leaders of the tribe that claims the land in question, but then must stop a coup d'etat in order to keep the deal alive.
I think the real moral of Insurrection doesn't have anything to do with either the needs of the many over the few, or what kind of society of two diametrically opposed options is better. It's that trying to live forever turns you into an TRIBBLE. The Ba'ku want to be Luddites? Let 'em. Are they TRIBBLE? Sure, but minus the MacGuffin they're living in the middle of, they're TRIBBLE who are completely irrelevant to Federation foreign policy precisely because they're Luddites and couldn't do a thing about the warp-capable superstate flying half-mile-long starships over their heads even if they wanted to. Not only would leaving well enough alone be more in keeping with supposed Federation principles than yet more arrogant cultural intolerance ("you have to live this way because it's RIGHT AND GOOD because we say so"), but from practical standpoint the Federation's resources are better spent rebuilding from the Dominion War using existing technology than chasing after immortality boondoggles with -- this cannot be repeated enough -- those who willingly aided and abetted the murder of billions of innocent people less than two years earlier.
Okay, you can stop right TRIBBLE there; there is zero comparison between a bunch of immortal Luddites and long-term unemployed in a technological society. I've been long-term unemployed, only managed to get back to work last year, three goddamn years post-graduation, after the economy in my area finally improved to where they were hiring and keeping entry-level electricians. We don't live in Star Trek's 24th century where you only work if you want to. The amount of people who are willingly long-term unemployed for reasons other than parenthood or age is a hell of a lot less than the amount who legitimately can't find work because the jobs aren't there. There's even a technical term, "structural unemployment", for the amount of people who are always going to be left in the lurch because there are always more applicants than jobs.
It's especially hard if, like me, you're at the very beginning of your career and have little work history in the middle of the worst recession since the 1930s. Bonus points if you have psychiatric issues that wreck your people skills and disqualify you from military service (I'm high-functioning autistic). And if you TRIBBLE up one time? Kthxbye, there's a dozen people behind you because the unemployment rate in your age group is knocking on the door of 20%. No, I'm not exaggerating in the slightest: Roughly May, I was fired after one day because they were "expecting somebody with more experience" without bothering to account for the fact that I hadn't worked a night shift in months and had only gotten the job that afternoon. And I couldn't afford to look for work someplace else, either, because that would require money, which I didn't have because I couldn't find work!
You wanna talk unemployment? The episode you should be thinking of is DS9: "Past Tense", not Insurrection.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
My character Tsin'xing
The real difference, is that Plot dictated Picard wanted to get involved in the Ba'ku situation, when he previously would have avoided helping Sarjenka's people, the Boraalans (when Nikolai Rozhenko was involved) the Klingon civil war (despite his own personal standing and official position within the Klingon Empire as Gowron's arbiter of succession) and the colonists who became the Maquis...
And that, is touching back onto the issue with the Valakians and the Menk: If it would have been right to have stayed away from the Ba'ku, it was right for Archer to have stayed away from the Valakians... The Valakians requested help, they should have received it.
To hold onto the Son'a alliance with the Dominion during a war, is nothing more than being petty grudge-holding... The Klingon Empire have had a much longer and more directly antagonist relationship to the Federation, yet they also had a significant period of peace (until plot dictated they become enemies again) (*Which gives me a thought which I'll detail below...) Once war ends, viewpoints shift, alliances change, and things change, which brings me to the next part of that point;
Metaphasic technology would potentially heal the wounded more completely than the existing technology. I say potentially, because as we saw, the effects of the metaphasic regeneration was transient. However, the plot point is that the Council were presumably told it could have been permanent effects (why else would they expend the resources of the duck-blind mission) In their opinion, it was an avenue worth exploring. But as mentioned, the plot has considerable flaws, making it harder to weigh the relative merits of either party...
Due to that, I will clarify: when I said 'long-term unemployed', I was using a euphemism for benefit-monkeys -- the people who do not, and will not work, because the state supports them and their illiterate offspring -- not people who are simply 'out of work' through economic/medical/work-force-related issues (which, without putting my personal business on public forum, I am more than sympathetic to...) It was meant as a joke (hence winky face) so if you're offended by that, well, sorry you feel that way... Anything else, I'm simply not prepared to get into...
[Edit to add]
I forgot...
*
Had The Drumhead focussed on some infraction of Worf's (such as when he messed up while in command of the Defiant) and delved into a regular character, rather than an unknown liek Simon Tarses, it could have been a much more powerful and insightful episode...
My character Tsin'xing
Yes, actually, the Ba'ku... A people in social stasis who do nothing of value beyond metabolise, and as another poster pointed out, were unwilling the share the planet with their own children when they disagreed with their frankly stagnant way of life.
Illiterate... When we're communicating through the shared medium of written language... Not quite grasped the meaning of the word 'illiterate' have you... Sick burn...
Oh I get that that was the point of the episode... What you seem to be missing the point of, is that Tarses was a franchise non-entity. The point, was that the episode would have been much more powerful, had it focussed on an already-established character. As with starsword, who my comment was addressed to: you're free to disagree with me, but I'm getting more than a bit sick of you questioning my opinions, and rejecting my explanations simply because you don't agree with them, and resort to tired ad hominem when I point out the flaws in your assumptions and hyperbole...
My character Tsin'xing
Also, I find it ironic that you use phrases like 'Do shut up, you hypocrite' and 'Sick burn' (I think you meant 'bum'?) while at the same time dismissing markhawkman's arguments as ad hominems. It's making you look bad, more so since you make yourself look like the exact same thing you're accusing others of being.
You're also getting pretty worked up over this debate. All of you. Better calm down before a moderator decides it's gone too far.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
And while I'm not going to subject myself to that movie again (twice was twice too many, in my opinion), I certainly saw nothing to suggest that the Ba'ku were anything more than a society of lotus-eaters, luddites rejecting technology because it jest ain't natural. Their little idyll was made possible only by the fact that they were hoarding this energy supply of theirs, refusing to share with anyone (to the point they couldn't even coexist on the same planet as their rebellious children. A planet's a pretty doggone big place, you know.) The Son'a we saw weren't a lot better, would-be imperials who lacked the personal energy to actually build an empire so looked to swipe one instead. Personally, I thought the winning move here would have been to remove all Federation ships and outposts from the entire region and let them settle matters between themselves.
On a side note, the characterization of certain people as "benefit monkeys" is frankly offensive. Perhaps matters are different in the UK, but the only place I've ever encountered poor people who were content to simply sit on their laurels and collect public benefits were in anecdotes related by right-wingers ranting about how terrible poor people are. Are you under the impression that welfare and food stamps provide anywhere near enough to live comfortably? If that were the case, there wouldn't be anyone willing to work for the current pitiful Federal minimum wage in the States. (And I've been there. I worked as a janitor in a Dairy Queen for three months in order to get out of that.)
I didn't know Sir Patrick pointed out issues with the script until starsword mentioned it upthread, so no, I don't know what he considered to be a flaw.
I disagree. The points I have made, are all supported by in-verse material, both from the movie itself, and the DS-9 episode (which I don't immediately recall) where the Son'a are apparently mentioned as Dominion allies/facilitators. Their interaction with the Dominion, implies significantly greater numbers, capabilities and facilities, than the 'scorned nomads' which Insurrection introduced and portrayed them as before the Big Reveal...
Picard behaves in an extremely out-of-character manner compared to the instances I cited above, and will not waste time repeating. I also know that the plot has numerous holes in it, and it is those holes, which reduce the credibility of the piece as a work of fiction. The inconsistency of statements made in the film makes them questionable, and that as a piece, the 'plot' cannot be taken purely at face-viewing, and when analysed deeper, becomes even more flawed.
That theory was not actually mine, but lordrezeon's, but let's examine it for a moment:
Established fact:
The Ba'ku were not indigenous to the planet, and had arrived there from somewhere else, in space ships. Are we agreed thus far?
Conjecture:
When 'the young people left to follow the ways of the off-landers', they did so in the ships which had delivered them to the planet.
Is that implausible beyond consideration?
Is it implausible to consider that the Ba'ku 'drove the young people away' figuratively, if not literally?
Is it implausible to consider (given the Son'a relationship with the Dominion) that the Son'a have greater facilities and resources to those seen in Insurrection?
Is it implausible to consider (considering that they conquered two entire races) that the Son'a maintain those facilities and resources, with greater numbers than those seen in Insurrection?
Are those points, based on what was shown in Insurrection and DS-9, absolutely implausible?
Established fact:
The Ba'ku were disingenuous about their existence, their relationship and the Fountain of Youth.
IMHO, that makes them unreliable narrators, and anything they say becomes questionable.
Illiterate: Unable to read and write...
I may have made a less-than-gramatically-correct off-the-cuff remark, but I am not illiterate, and resent the accusation. It was a joke, nothing more, nothing less, about the Ba'ku's stagnation, and had I known starsword's circumstances, (even though the comparison was not aimed at them in any way) I would likely not have made it...