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The innate problem with Reputation sets

Every Reputation up to this date has included a space set, and with one exception a ground set. Some had more space, some more ground. However, all of these sets have a very specific innate problem. By the time you get them, you don't need them.

To illustrate. The 8472 Counter Command set is specifically built for taking on the Undine, by including stuff as a higher Antiproton resistance and a 3 piece set bonus that takes out the fluidic bubble thingies. To get this set, one has to a) get his/her reputation to T5 (average player invest of 1225 marks) and b) get the set pieces (3000 marks and 20 injections). At this point the average player has played enough content to get 3225 marks and 20 injections (minus 750 marks and 5 injections from unlocking T5). Now, he has all the shineys to finally be completely geared towards taking down 8472. Except....... what does he earn by doing so? He got his reputation and his set to T5. Rewards-speaking, why ever play this content again on that character?

The point is that when you finally get the gear specified for taking on specific queues or battlezones, the rewards in there are not interesting anymore except for Dilithium and Experience, which you can earn everywhere these days. The innate problem with these sets is thus: you unlock them way too late to truly benefit from them.

TL;DR: Reputation sets are earned at the time the queues and battlezones those sets are for offer nothing specifically interesting anymore.

What are your thoughts on this? Discuss!
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Comments

  • cidjackcidjack Member Posts: 2,017 Arc User
    The reps are fine, and the gear is still useful. Some people think that just because it is new the old stuf is not worth having. People should not think like that.

    Plus, the metrics demand you keep getting the shines.
    Armada: Multiplying fleet projects in need of dilithium by 13."
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  • seriousdaveseriousdave Member Posts: 2,777 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    Do X 100 times to get stuff that helps in X, it's a deeply flawed scheme spread across many MMOs.

    Though most shields, defelctors, etc are good and proper items for the right builds. Just look at the iconian space set, it's one of the few sets where all parts are pretty good and even the 4pc is worth it, especially if you get lucky and upgrade the core to UR with [AMP]. ;)
    Or even some older sets like maco, borg or nukara, all are still being useful when used properly.

    It's mostly rep weapons & clicky powers that become entirely pointless but also most of those weren't worth it to begin with.
    Stuff like protonic polaron is already a waste to get even with the increased proc rate against voth, pretty much the same goes for the bio phasers & disruptors. Or the terrible thoron infused polaron & radiant ap which just have bad procs to begin with.
  • feiqafeiqa Member Posts: 2,410 Arc User
    I am going to agree with the op on this one. I think the sets should be staged so the first one is a nice general use. Then what unlocks does not help with the enemy you just beat. But to fighting the next enemy. So Tholian gear is generally boosting. Borg gear helps fight the Voth, and the Voth gear helps versus the Undine, etc. Not an I win button but a boost in effectiveness. So someone with no rep gear is still useful. But someone with the right counter gear it is easier a payoff for time invested.
    Now they put a big enemy down like the Iconians. Instead of one right path. You make different reps have boosts in different queues. So you have a space que with good payout want that tholian or borg set. So even new players will want to go back and do previous reps.

    Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
    Network engineers are not ship designers.
    Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
  • kerygankerygan Member Posts: 254 Arc User
    sets should not be specific to one tipe of enemy ...
  • serhatgs1905serhatgs1905 Member Posts: 100 Arc User
    Doesn't really matter which set you get...

    I'd recommend the Iconian set as 1st option than maybe 2nd borg.. but it all depends on your build.... doesn't really matter you need to upgrade anyway.
    tactics? to pew pew or not to pew pew?!

  • gradiigradii Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    kerygan wrote: »
    sets should not be specific to one tipe of enemy ...

    They're not for the most part. I use my Adapted Honor guard against everything and do just fine.

    Try Iconian Rep ground armor sometime too.

    These sets are NOT "designed" to fight "ONE" enemy type. they're good for EVERYTHING with a slight increase in usefulness against one particular type on occasion.

    "He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
    Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
    he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
    In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
    He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
    He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
    He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
    He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,602 Arc User
    My Borg, Maco and Aegis sets, combined with Rom/Borg Weapon sets have served me fine through-out the years. They're all MK XIV and serve their purpose. Sorry OP, but your point is a bit of a damp squib.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • lamyrslamyrs Member Posts: 312 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    For me, the main problem is that missions sets are as good or sometimes better than the rep sets. On my news chars I don't grab sets from the rep system anymore, I do a mission 3 times, take me less than 2 hours, and here we go I have a full set without spending anything.
    leemwatson wrote: »
    My Borg, Maco and Aegis sets, combined with Rom/Borg Weapon sets have served me fine through-out the years. They're all MK XIV and serve their purpose. Sorry OP, but your point is a bit of a damp squib.

    Mk XIV Aegis set? Really?
    I am from Belgium and english isn't my main language, sorry if I make mistakes.
  • rahmkota19rahmkota19 Member Posts: 1,929 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    My Borg, Maco and Aegis sets, combined with Rom/Borg Weapon sets have served me fine through-out the years. They're all MK XIV and serve their purpose. Sorry OP, but your point is a bit of a damp squib.

    Is it?

    I am still using my MACO gear from 3 years ago. It still cuts it job the way I need it to. I have absolutely zero plans of replacing it.
    However, MACO gear does have that tiny bit bonuss against Plasma Damage, the ground version comes with the Frequency Remodulator. These are both designed to combat the Borg. By the time you do get to own and use these sets, the Borg content does not offer any reward that is not offered elsewhere other than the marks and processors you simply don't need for anything else as dilithium conversion at this point.

    THe point is not that Reputation sets are useless. The point is that they are designed to combat that one specific enemy which you spent weeks fighting just to get the sets in the first place. Like described above: Do x 100 times to do x more efficiently. At which point you really don't want to do x that much anymore.


    I'm not proposing to remove reputation gear. I'm rather suggesting that future sets are changed to not be designed about fighting the one enemy you'll be avoiding for months to come.
  • chastity1337chastity1337 Member Posts: 1,608 Arc User
    I do completely agree with OP Rahmkota.

    The sad part is that we are now on our 8th reputation, and only now is this being discussed. It's been an issue since way back in the day when Infected, Cure, and Khitomer were the only STF's and they dropped random TRIBBLE, so you could wind up with three shields but no engines or deflector.

    seriousdave also makes good points.
  • ladytiamat666ladytiamat666 Member Posts: 276 Arc User
    Your reasoning is only sound if you have only 1 character. If you have more, once you are T5 in the rep, you still need to grind marks for the sponsorship tokens. And it's 100 marks / token. So, the more alts you have, the more you have to replay the content again (sure, you could play the missions or events that reward a choice of marks, but your gear will not be adapted to the new kind of enemy involved). In this case, having a set that protects you and / or does more damage versus the enemy involved in the content that you must replay makes sense.
    signature%201.jpg_zpsklpuyd7v.png
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    rahmkota19 wrote: »
    leemwatson wrote: »
    My Borg, Maco and Aegis sets, combined with Rom/Borg Weapon sets have served me fine through-out the years. They're all MK XIV and serve their purpose. Sorry OP, but your point is a bit of a damp squib.

    Is it?

    I am still using my MACO gear from 3 years ago. It still cuts it job the way I need it to. I have absolutely zero plans of replacing it.
    However, MACO gear does have that tiny bit bonuss against Plasma Damage, the ground version comes with the Frequency Remodulator. These are both designed to combat the Borg. By the time you do get to own and use these sets, the Borg content does not offer any reward that is not offered elsewhere other than the marks and processors you simply don't need for anything else as dilithium conversion at this point.

    THe point is not that Reputation sets are useless. The point is that they are designed to combat that one specific enemy which you spent weeks fighting just to get the sets in the first place. Like described above: Do x 100 times to do x more efficiently. At which point you really don't want to do x that much anymore.


    I'm not proposing to remove reputation gear. I'm rather suggesting that future sets are changed to not be designed about fighting the one enemy you'll be avoiding for months to come.

    I don't buy this. Most of the time an active player will be "finished" with all the reps. They don't take that long to finish compared to how often new ones are released. Presumably these players are still fighting something, even if that something doesn't offer any reward that is not offered elsewhere.

    Rep gear has certain thematic connections to the enemy they're designed against. Some more than others. If a particular piece of equipment is not effective for the purpose you need, then you shouldn't use it.
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,602 Arc User
    rahmkota19 wrote: »
    leemwatson wrote: »
    My Borg, Maco and Aegis sets, combined with Rom/Borg Weapon sets have served me fine through-out the years. They're all MK XIV and serve their purpose. Sorry OP, but your point is a bit of a damp squib.

    Is it?

    I am still using my MACO gear from 3 years ago. It still cuts it job the way I need it to. I have absolutely zero plans of replacing it.
    However, MACO gear does have that tiny bit bonuss against Plasma Damage, the ground version comes with the Frequency Remodulator. These are both designed to combat the Borg. By the time you do get to own and use these sets, the Borg content does not offer any reward that is not offered elsewhere other than the marks and processors you simply don't need for anything else as dilithium conversion at this point.

    THe point is not that Reputation sets are useless. The point is that they are designed to combat that one specific enemy which you spent weeks fighting just to get the sets in the first place. Like described above: Do x 100 times to do x more efficiently. At which point you really don't want to do x that much anymore.


    I'm not proposing to remove reputation gear. I'm rather suggesting that future sets are changed to not be designed about fighting the one enemy you'll be avoiding for months to come.

    I find that this equipment is complimentary to my Sci captain and is effective against all enemy. I don't choose it because it's tailored for only 1. Arguing that it gives a measly bonus against 1 type of enemy isn't really making your point. None of the equipment is out-dated, nor in-effective, that's the benefit of upgrades in effect!
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • imkainimkain Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    I agree with the general argument that the reputation sets are a bit mundane. The passive bonus traits are nice to have, but overall the cost to achieve the overall gear from those reputations is insane. 15k dilithium is a bit much, in my opinion. The only piece of gear I went to get was the kinetic cutting beam because of its ability to be a 360 degree constant kinetic damage beam...which is very helpful, in my opinion, against all ships, the Borg, etc.

    I think that the rewards given when you finish putting in the materials to begin the 20 hour countdown, should be better than what is given. I have received perhaps 90% of all the gear as ground based weapons. In my opinion, those do not apply to myself, as I tend to enjoy space combat. Perhaps the reputation system should ask us what kind of reward we would like, similar to when you turn in a mission. Select your gear, based upon your build, etc.

    This is just my opinion of course. Hope I added some decent, constructive criticism.
  • lowy1lowy1 Member Posts: 964 Arc User
    I still use my omega force ground gear and they need to add warp cores to the old 3 piece set because there are a lot of 2 piece sets I would use but can't because of warp cores lacking.
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  • qjuniorqjunior Member Posts: 2,023 Arc User
    Ever since my newest character completed his Iconian Resistance space set.... I haven't fought a single herald ship.... A shame actually, I have to try it and see if they are still the most annoying enemies even with the set or if it's actually bearable.
  • gradiigradii Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    qjunior wrote: »
    Ever since my newest character completed his Iconian Resistance space set.... I haven't fought a single herald ship.... A shame actually, I have to try it and see if they are still the most annoying enemies even with the set or if it's actually bearable.

    I find the iconian rep set is actually the most effective Vs Tholians.

    "He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
    Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
    he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
    In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
    He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
    He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
    He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
    He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
  • qjuniorqjunior Member Posts: 2,023 Arc User
    gradii wrote: »
    qjunior wrote: »
    Ever since my newest character completed his Iconian Resistance space set.... I haven't fought a single herald ship.... A shame actually, I have to try it and see if they are still the most annoying enemies even with the set or if it's actually bearable.

    I find the iconian rep set is actually the most effective Vs Tholians.

    That's true, I had some glorious Tholian Red Alerts. No weapon disable for you, spidery friend, and now die, muahahaaa ! >:)
  • aesicaaesica Member Posts: 736 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    I don't know if they're useless once you get them, as my iconian ground set gives me over 700 shields/1200 hp. Even though I'm sure there's higher numbers available out there, I'm pretty sure that will make them remain quite relevant for quite some time. Plus, in general, rep sets are some of the best gear you can get for your bridge officers, and space sets (at least the weapon/console sets) are often some of the best weapons available.

    I have mixed feelings on the deflector/engine/warpcore/shield sets, though. They seem less "mandatory" and generally you can skip several reps worth. For penny-pinchers, the solanae, kobali, and sol defense sets are probably going to be good enough. Most of my alts, even the level 60 ones, still use the solanae set.
    lowy1 wrote: »
    I still use my omega force ground gear and they need to add warp cores to the old 3 piece set because there are a lot of 2 piece sets I would use but can't because of warp cores lacking.
    Why do you need a matching warp core? Fleet warp cores are always awesome, but there's also the kobali warp core (comes with a really strong heal, can't recall if it's for shields or hull but it's really effective) and the temporal warp core from one of the iconian war missions. Both are definitely good just as stand-alones.
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  • lingeringsoul888lingeringsoul888 Member Posts: 509 Arc User
    Most people are not getting the set item to deal with the current enemy. Some people get it for just the shield to make your ship look pretty, other get it just for the warp core/set bonus etc etc. I don't think anyone is really sitting in front of their computer rubbing their hands together thinking, I can finally deal with the mirror invasion now that I've got special resistance on my shield against phasers.
  • shar487ashar487a Member Posts: 1,292 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    Some of the best gear come only from the reputation sets. Here are my some of my votes for Best-in-Slot Rep Gear:

    1) Iconian Shield -- 15% all energy resists, hot restart, removes 1 debuff every 10 seconds.

    2) Iconian Deflector -- when upgraded to Ultra Rare, it gets the [SciCdr] mod. This cuts all sci BOFF skill cooldowns by 10%, so a sci ability that takes 1 minute to recharge now takes 54 seconds. Yes, it stacks with the Bioneural Gel Pack :dizzy:

    3) Bio-Neural Gel Pack -- extra subsystem power, +24.8% shields at epic, cuts all BOFF cooldown skills by 7%


    You may not need the above to defeat the Iconians, but it certainly gives you a decisive advantage vs. other player ships not sporting this gear.

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  • elvnswordselvnswords Member Posts: 184 Arc User
    I think a way that OP's concern could be addressed would be to open the random boxes up to dropping the Reputation Gear when leveling a reputation, and lowering all Rep gear's tier by 1.

    This is kind of a hybrid idea between how the system used to work with the MACO and Borg Adapted tech sets (before Reputation systems were a thing), and the current system. You would in no way be guaranteed a set of the armors, or space set, but you would have a chance at getting any of them from the boxes instead of another Borg AP rifle your going to delete to get your EC back.
  • tousseautousseau Member Posts: 1,484 Arc User
    You know... it's a shame that we don't get Red Alerts for the Undine, Voth or Terrans...
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  • lowy1lowy1 Member Posts: 964 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    I tried to quote Aesica but keep getting null.... Anyway, the reason I'd like to see WCs for the older set is because I would like to have the flexibility of adding 2 2 piece sets. EG, the Nukara space set give 2.5% bonus damage, but I use the CCommand shield and engine because it synergizes well with reciprocity. I course it would have to be amp. Or even more so I use the 2 piece Dyson wc and shield with the amaco deflector and engines on my sci. Or the 2 piece sol see gives nice resists by no wc so won't work with my smack 2 piece.
    HzLLhLB.gif

  • risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,711 Arc User
    Some missions remain fun to play every now and then. If you have a reputation set, it'll generally be a lot easier and maybe more enjoyable to do those missions.

    If you just intend to play stuff once and then never again, then yes, there's no point playing a mission a dozen times to collect gear that's intended to enhance your performance in those same missions.

    Perhaps a solution, if you're going to argue it is needed which I personally don't think is true, would be to reorganise when you get what. For example, right now you get a ground weapon at T1, shield at T3 and Armour at T5. They could make it so that you get the full set, without bonuses, at T2 or 3, then at T4 the set bonuses, and at T5 the visuals/costume unlocks.
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    rahmkota19 wrote: »
    Every Reputation up to this date has included a space set, and with one exception a ground set. Some had more space, some more ground. However, all of these sets have a very specific innate problem. By the time you get them, you don't need them.

    To illustrate. The 8472 Counter Command set is specifically built for taking on the Undine, by including stuff as a higher Antiproton resistance and a 3 piece set bonus that takes out the fluidic bubble thingies. To get this set, one has to a) get his/her reputation to T5 (average player invest of 1225 marks) and b) get the set pieces (3000 marks and 20 injections). At this point the average player has played enough content to get 3225 marks and 20 injections (minus 750 marks and 5 injections from unlocking T5). Now, he has all the shineys to finally be completely geared towards taking down 8472. Except....... what does he earn by doing so? He got his reputation and his set to T5. Rewards-speaking, why ever play this content again on that character?

    The point is that when you finally get the gear specified for taking on specific queues or battlezones, the rewards in there are not interesting anymore except for Dilithium and Experience, which you can earn everywhere these days. The innate problem with these sets is thus: you unlock them way too late to truly benefit from them.

    TL;DR: Reputation sets are earned at the time the queues and battlezones those sets are for offer nothing specifically interesting anymore.

    What are your thoughts on this? Discuss!

    Well, given the Terran Set boosts flow caps the best of anything else, it won't ever leave my sci drain boat. I still use the Omega set on my tac/sci drain build. The sets are fine. Each one has its own purpose.

  • gerwalk0769gerwalk0769 Member Posts: 1,095 Arc User
    qjunior wrote: »
    Ever since my newest character completed his Iconian Resistance space set.... I haven't fought a single herald ship.... A shame actually, I have to try it and see if they are still the most annoying enemies even with the set or if it's actually bearable.

    And I never thought I'd use the Iconian set, until I started running builds and powers that generated a lot of aggro.

    While I think I might not ever use a set, sometimes I revisit it in some way or another-outside of its rep use.
    Joined STO in September 2010.
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