Why is there a lot of clamour for science vessels?
Alot of "observations" surrounding kdf and roms not having any or enough. The Annorax whatchamacallit is the prettiest belle of the ball apparently and everyone wants a turn with her, why? Vestas, wells, and T6 Dysons Oh my!
Just a TRIBBLE ton of clamour for/about/surrounding science ships. I dont get it, im curious whats all the fuss.
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The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Which is to say they TRIBBLE just about anything in record time although those rediculous DPS meters don't accurately show this.
You have no idea how much fun it is to play science, no other career has so many interesting and equally lethal options to choose from!
Whats the desire in being a wizard?
Also while my build in Isa is purely science based and my ship doesn't pew it has been rated at 31k dps but the dps map shows it spiking all the way to 150k. The issue you run into is the long cooldowns cause a up and down wave of dps.
The best part is most science abilities penetrate shields and/or armor making them extra lethal.
For me? Fun.
What is it some people like in just pewpewpew with passive stats maxed without doing anything except hitting spacebar? Yes, I am overexaggerating and have a few Tacs myself which I enjoy, but the proportion of Tac to the other careers really baffles me.
Sci is my favorite because it is the shinies. A Grav Well is something to see, an APA is just for blowing up stuff faster without any effect at all on how it feels (to me).
I guess everyone is different in that regard.
Feedback Pulse is useful only against energy weapons using Alpha Strikers. FBP is also completely useless against an opponent that can see what you're doing, i.e. reading your BUFFs, holding fire until your very short FBP BUFF is gone, then laying into you. Also, some teams ignore the FBP guy first as they concentrate on other opponents of the team. They'll save the FBP guy for last. The FBP user in that situation is left with a LtCmdr/Cmdr rank Science ability that is 100% useless for the team. A LtCmdr/Cmdr ranked ability of any style having so little use is a failure for the team.
FBP is a nice solo ability that has easy work arounds. FBP is also the WORST ability to have in a team environment.
Why is there 'clamour' for science vessels*? Same reason there's threads asking for T6 version of the poster's favorite ship: they want to play with a preferred ship type and/or model. People enjoy playing by debuffing and disabling, people like to be the lynch-pin to taking down the target, some people just want to throw some space magic around! Roiding out a ship with dilithium and Hulk-facesmash-spacebar isn't for everyone; some of us need active brain cells to enjoy something.
The reason you are seeing more and more threads about science is the glut of T6 escorts and cruisers (at least for Starfleet toons) has scratched most of the major itches. Yet since the advent of T6, there are four (4) T6 grade science vessels in game, and those vessels are not spread evenly, 3 are Starfleet faction ships and the fourth the bank-breaking and only option for KDF and RRF toons.
A MMO that neglects something like core class (face it, Escort-Crusier-Science Vessel is the STO model**) does not have a healthy metagame. STO does not look healthy; venture into a PvE que and what do you see? FAW. FAW. FAW. I understand that people will gravitate towards what works best, but it is negligent of the part of the Devs to have allowed it to persist for so very long. The metagame is just as important as the servers' basic, day-to-day functioning. If everyone has the same build, flies the same, dies the same...things get dull, boring and then the game really suffers.
We now have 3 main specializations available in game; the generalist Intel, the Eng/Cruiser leaning Command, and the Tactical/Escort focused Pilot. Notice what's missing? That's right, a science oriented spec, and now we hear in a podcast that the Devs aren't working on a new spec right now. Why? A new specialization would put science buffs under everyones' noses and draw attention to it.
We have a recent Fleet Holding where the major gear draw, dual stat science consoles and secondary deflectors, are largely useless to 2 of the 3 factions in game. We have a Admiralty System that does not give a F@#$ what faction your toon is, so you get the same number of high science missions on your KDF and RRF as your Starfleet toon does, and yet the KDF and RRF toons have a fraction of the options to employ. Better hope that you don't land more one or two high sci missions if you don't want to burn pass tokens or wait a day...
Mechanically, science powers are in the best position they've been in since suffering the horrendous nerf that occurred early in the game's life. Now is the time to push some science vessels, now is the time to pry to average players thumb from the spaceFAWbar to get them into a thinking vessel.
Cryptic, science is suffering and the ball is in your court. Only the Devs taking action can fix this issue. Stop using your precious Metrics as a bludgeon to punish those who don't chase the crowd and start to pull STO back to what you advertised: a MMO with 3 classes (careers) and 2, then 3 factions. You remember what IDIC stands for, right?
So, back to the topic: You see science threads because science is being neglected. It's being sacrificed on the alter of instant profits instead being used to build depth to the metagame. The 'clamour' for science goes hand in hand with the noise about KDF and RRF toons. The Devs shouldn't have offered science and KDF and RRF if they had no intention of supporting them.
*-A science vessel typically has the following traits at endgame: 3 fore, 3 aft weapons, Innate Subsystem Targeting, Sensor Analysis, a Secondary Deflector slot, 4-5 science console slots, a Commander rank Science Bridge Officer, a bonus to Auxiliary Power, and the standard science vessel mastery set. This means that the 'Science Carriers' (Sarr Theln, Atrox, Recluse, Kar'fi, etc), Science-leaning Escort/Destroyers/Warships (Nandi, Hestia, Faeht, Kor), Science leaning cruisers (Science CBCs, Guardian) are NOT science vessels per this definition.
**-Before you try to bring up BoPs and the like, tell me friend, is the Recluse an escort because it can run a Cmdr Tac? Is the Phantom a cruiser because it can run a Lt Cmdr Eng slot? Didn't think so. Could there be something else to a ship fitting a type/class than just BOff slots? Why do folks continue to insist on using ships such as the Science CBCs or the Nandi to be just as good as having a science ships? Mere BOff slots DO NOT MAKE A SHIP! BOff slots are one component of many that determine the ship. And on top of that, given the way science BOff powers scale with rank, high rank BOff slots are critical.
Every faction should have had access to the basic three (escort/raptor/tactical warbird, cruiser/battlecruiser/engineering warbird, science vessel/support vessel/science warbird) at the max tier of capability before we ventured off into faction specialty land; once you cover the essentials, then would've been the time to play with carriers, raiders, flight-deck cruisers, dreadnoughts, destroyers, warships, multi-mission science vessels (only a matter of time on this one, the Vesta prints money like no other noncanon boat).
As opposed to asking for more TAC Cruisers and 5/2 Escorts? With all the TAC Cruisers and high powered Escorts in the game at T5 and T6, how many possible variations can you have of that weapons, BOFF, and console layouts before you have a sea of ships that are the S-A-M-E E-X-A-C-T D-A-M-N T-H-I-N-G?
The Feds are very well off in Science Vessels right now. Their game-topping selections at T5 and T6 is unmatched. They don't need to go after expensive Lockbox/Lobi/Promo Premium ships that are single character purchases. The KDF & Roms however are in a terrible state of science vessel selections. Very few at T5, some not upgradable, and both have none at T6. The new Annorax is priced completely out of the vast majority of players' reach.
Just because some Premium Science Vessel comes around, it does not alleviate the problems that were there to begin with: The lack of Science Vessels for the KDF & Roms. The notion of a Premium Ship like the Annorax also means that it's quite exclusive.
Plus science can bypass shields with exotic damage or target shields or subsystem power levels
Of course, should the Annorax promo have been extraordinary succesful, it might represent a turn. The Annorax seemed one of the most difficult to get ships - but now the Vonph seems similar, it fetches even higher prices apparerently on the TheTradingChanne then the Annorax. So it might not be related to the ship at all, and just the current going rate for promo ships...
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If anyone is wondering what the magical formula for a good science vessel is:
Sensor Analysis
Secondary Deflectors
Decent Turn Rate (10+)
Commander and Lt.Cmdr Science slots (or at least the potential to add a Lt.Cmdr Science, no one will hate the ship for a Universal Slot - unless you still put in anther Lt. Science.)
If you give it a 3/3 weapon setup, that's pretty much all neccessary. If you add a front weapon slot or some hangar bays, you might get away with a lower turn rate. (See Annorax).
I deliberately omit Subsystem Targeting, because it's rarely useful.
At least that's how I see it if you look at the ships people say were "sucky" science vessels. People say the Varanus sucked, but it's the same as the DSSV, plus a special ability console -but both ships have sucky turn rates. Science-Wise, they can do the same things other (Tier 5) Science Vessels could do.
At Tier 5, the Vesta is basically the golden example of a Science Vessel. It has all of what I list above, plus a hangar bay. But the Tier 6 ships get away without the hangar bay - but it will be interesting to see how people react if there is a Tier 6 Vesta that's basically like the Pathfinder, except with a hangar bay and more universal slots... And by "interesting" I mean "predictably, Vesta will again be the new gold standard and leave the other science vessels in the dust in the perception of players. Only the Scryer might get away with it because it also has Intel abilities and Cloak."
I have 9 alts, (tac, eng, sci) x (fed, rom, kdf). Flying different ships is fun. Using different loadouts is fun. Using different boff skills is fun. I play to have fun. Cryptic won't let me give them cash monies so I can have fun flying KDF and rom SCIENCE! ships.
I use the universal Lt. Com slot for my 2nd tact boff that uses TS3 ( I use a Vesta ), but at times I'll switch out my 2nd tact boff for my 2nd science boff who uses Energy Siphon, Transfer Shield Strength and Hazard Emitters. I may not have the best science because of how I originally spec'd my character, but my ship still does the job at killing and bypassing shields with my current setup. I use the Sunrise set to help keep my shields up while also using Tetryon and the 2 pc Krenim set to keep shields low and the Sunrise torpedo with TS3 after using Gravity Well + DRB + Quantum Beam.
After I respec more into science, my T5-U Vesta and my science in general will be stronger.
And because of how strong science is, I just haven't found much use for the Sub-System Targetting abilities as often as I used to unless I'm doing advanced STFs which are rare considering all of them except for the mirror event are dead.
I don't like the current T6 science ships and I definitely don't want to use the Scryer, I'm not into escorts. The Science Command Cruiser only has a Lt. Tact station and I need Lt. Comm so I can use TS3 and use the Quantum Phased torpedo more effectively. It also doesn't have a Lt. Comm Science station either also taking away Energy Siphon while the Comm Science station still gets to use Gravity Well and DRB. One extra science console slot over the other 2 cruisers isn't enough to get me to spend $30 on it. Either way, it's still a cruiser not a Science Vessel.
I'm still waiting for a proper T6 Science Vessel and right now most of us are hoping that it'll be the MM ships. I'm ready to buy a T6 Vesta the moment it's released if it ever will be.
I entered this thread prepared to say this exact same thing. Couldn't agree more.
Why wouldn't there be a clamour for more diversity? While there is nothing wrong with stacking straight-up weapon DPS, science offers a refreshing change of pace and if built right, can be a great boon to any team. Unfortunately the three career choices aren't completely balanced but they can all be made to work even for elite content.
That's where Klingons and Romulans draw the short straw, though. For them at the top end, if it comes to science it's either the insanely expensive Annorax or bust. While the Dyson Science Destroyers do work in a pinch, they're not T6 and thus can't take advantage of specializations. They're not exactly suited towards the most challenging content, either.
In the past, the devs have said that the reason there's a dearth of science ships for Klingons and Romulans is that these don't sell well. Though, if you look at what science ships they have gotten, it's no small wonder these don't sell... Perhaps the relative success of the Annorax will change something, but I doubt it.
Even the Feds could do with more variety on the science end though, but the Klinks and Roms need some lovin' first. While it may be true that science ships overall sell less, there are many people - myself included - who would be all over a T6 Vesta or a T6 Nova provided it's done properly. Conversely, most of the T6 cruisers and escorts don't really appeal to me. Your mileage may vary. Like the poster above me said, it's all good: variety is the spice of life.
Sure anyone can slap 8 beams on an escort and spam shots all over the place until the cows come home but it's not very challenging and it gets dull pretty quickly when everyone does it.
Science is a path that needs to p
Be thought out and carefully used, it can be expensive and complex to get the best out of it. So most players leave it well alone.
But I find it much more enjoyable to play with and that is regardless of only doing 20K DPS, there's more to this than just shooting beams every which way.
If you give the KDF a Vesta like Science Vessel, then the KDF Officer flying that ship will play exactly like a Fed character with a ship.
If you don't give him a Science Vessel, but a Bird of Prey or a Carrier, then he will have a very different style of play. And if you don't give the Feds a Carrier or Bird of Prey, then the two factions will have both unique gameplay options that almost screams like making characters from both factions.
if we had unique options which we're never gonna get. hell we still don't even word on a kdf t6 carrier but we have a contest for new t6 fed carrier. and it took over a year to get a t6 bop literally the first kind of ship kdf players get. cryptic has made it more then clear that they have no interest in faction balance/exclusivity. so we may as well at least try to get at least one of all the basics.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
Well, then don't use "variety is the spice of life" as argument for Klingon or Romulan Science Vessels (or Federation Carriers or Battle Cloak, if anyone ever did that).
Just say you want have every gameplay option on every faction. (Might want to explain how you feel about singularity powers and warp cores...)
fairly sure it a matter of time for feds get it without the pesky technicality of having to roll romulans. and it still a valid argument for kdf/rom sci ship. variety on all characters not just feds. I know that not a popular way of thinking but it is a valid one. and actually I'm in the different factions should get different thing camp but I couldn't call myself a realist if I didn't admit that it not going happen and go for the 2rd best thing.
p.s. and probably at least once but mostly they use the "we deserve cause we deserve" it argument for why feds get things.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
Nobody said there should be an exact copy of the vesta - and at this point its obvious that you did not get the main point of all the "clamour" - there are ZERO rom and KDF sci ships at t6 wile there is plenty of cruisers and escorts.
I dont mind if the feds get more ships but the total neglect of an entire captain branch is what upsets.
Concerning your "homogeneity": If certain fractions should lean towards certain types of captain classes it should be advertised in the beginning and this still does not explain then why fed is a jack of all trades.
I'm not asking for a carbon copy of all ships and classes for every faction - I wrote nothing of the sort. In fact, quite the opposite was implied (variety >< homogeneity).
The situation isn't black and white. I'm all for unique gameplay options but right now as a Klingon or Romulan you're simply being pigeonholed. There's a difference between those two (unique vs. pigeonholed). There should be a middle ground where right now, there is none. Or very little, in any case.
You've misunderstood my position- which is fine, misunderstandings happen - but now you're putting words in my mouth. Please don't.
"Variety is the spice of life" isn't an argument. It's merely an opinion.
The original question of this thread was "why the clamour for science vessels"? Well, in my opinion, that is because "variety is the spice of life". The implication is precisely that if everyone was flying the exact same thing, now that would be homogenous indeed. But that's still merely my opinion (subjective).
I'm not asking for every gameplay option to be available to every faction or for ships to be copypasted across factions. What I would like is a middle ground between being unique and being pigeonholed. Like Cassiusdio said, an entire captain branch (science) is being pretty much neglected, at least as far as T6 Romulan and Klingon science ships is concerned compared to the Federation. Or do Romulans and Klingons don't do science?
But that horse has been flogged already. I merely alluded to it because while I would very much like even more science vessels for the Federation (along with cruisers and escorts) the Klingons and Romulans should get some love first. Again, in my opinion.
There is a thematic link between Tactical/Escort, Engineer/Cruiser and Science Officer/Science Vessel, but not a mechanical one.
That point aside more science ships haven't been made because nobody buys them, I would be surprised if Cryptic doesn't give it one last try in a bundle format but y'all better spank your wallets dry or it'll be the last time they ever do.
I don't want to get into this stupid TRIBBLE argument again but I'll say that nothing Romulon exclusive has been given to either faction except some OP boffs and for good reason. There are no federation birds of prey and the federation is the ONLY group ever shown to use fighter/carriers is the entire franchise. Just because you got one first doesn't mean it's only for you. They may have intended to have greater ship differentiation between factions but they soon realized there was a very finite number they could make. This is after all why T6 ships were made, Cryptic ran out of unique ships to make.
I'm done.
Who here is asking for a wide selection of science ships as the Feds do? How many of us would be fine with JUST ONE? One that is a competent, well designed, well equipped, Klingon/Romulan science ship is not too much to ask. Who the fck do you think you are thinking you have the right to deny KDF/Roms science ships? Don't even bother with the argument of faction distinction.That got erased when the Feds got virtually ALL of what made these other two unique. That's in addition to getting what precious little we had left nerfed to uselessness. And I'll say it again. Birds of prey are not science ships! Stop trying to dictate to us that science ships are Feds only and everyone else who disagrees with you needs to STFU, and for that matter you need to SFTU yourself.
T5U Vesta is 2500zen + 700zen. That's a $2 profit, per ship, over a T6 ship @ 3000zen.
What would you theoretically get with a T6 Vesta?
One more Boff power, and it would probably be a lt universal instead of an ensign universal.
Another unique console that would work as a 4 piece set with the other 3 MM consoles.
You don't need a T6 Vesta. No one would use the console set in their builds except as a novelty.
The T5 MM explorers are fleet level. A T6 MM explorer would have to be T6 fleet level, like the CBCs.
A T5U MM explorer is, bare minimum, on par with a T6 science ship, and at best slightly better, and they make more money selling it.
They don't need to make a T6 Vesta, they make more money on the MM as is.
Before T6 the MM was the ship par excellence, after T6 it's still an 'advanced ship of the line'.