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Cannons are supposed to do same damage at long range. Just miss more at long range.
tinkerbelch
Member Posts: 138 Arc User
Loosing damage at range for beams makes sense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beam_divergence
But Cannons. I read on memory alpha that phaser cannons were not supposed to loose damage at long distances.
Maybe it is time for cryptic to scratch the damage loss for cannons over distance and instead factor "distance to target" in the accuracy-defense hit miss calculation.
This would basically mean full damage to stationary targets at any range, just like torpedoes, But maneuverable targets need to be up close in order to have good chance to hit. That sounds more like a dog-fighter and should make escorts way more fun.
But Cannons. I read on memory alpha that phaser cannons were not supposed to loose damage at long distances.
Maybe it is time for cryptic to scratch the damage loss for cannons over distance and instead factor "distance to target" in the accuracy-defense hit miss calculation.
This would basically mean full damage to stationary targets at any range, just like torpedoes, But maneuverable targets need to be up close in order to have good chance to hit. That sounds more like a dog-fighter and should make escorts way more fun.
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What you are suggesting would unbalance that. It would make cannons high damage weapons effective at long ranges but give beams the short end of the stick where they are low damage short range weapons. This doesn't make sense.
I would only agree to your proposal if they made beams the highest DPS weapons in the game to compensate for their new range penalties.
Additionally, since energy bolts shouldn't be able to turn mid-flight as they do currently to show an appropriate hit animation, the new long-range nature of cannons would be just about nullified if the target is moving in any kind of unpredictable pattern (i.e. anything but a straight line relative to the firing ship's PoV) as you would pretty much just miss every time until you got close, at which point you might as well not have changed anything.
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No the base DPS of cannons is higher than beams. Beams only have higher DPS when you start adding buffs like BFAW and take into account their ease of use (wider firing arcs = easier to keep firing on target).
You can check this by comparing a Dual Cannon and a beam array of the same mark and quality in your inventory.
beams = best for breaking shields, around 50% less dmg against hull
cannons = same against shields as beams, distance penalty as is, but slightly (around 25% less dmg?) more dmg against hull than beams
projectiles = slight (10% more dmg) increase against shields
something in that direction would be nice, imho
Actual damage per volley is less than cannons though. So if you can keep your target in the narrow 45' degree arc that DHCs have the entire time you're shooting at them, they'd have higher DPS. But combat is fluid and sometimes you can't keep the cannons on target. This has been my understanding of the situation anyway.
The raw DPS numbers on paper are not indicative of what takes place in practice. In practice, Beams are objectively superior to cannons in the current meta, so your talk of balance being disrupted by boosting cannons is in error. Balance is already disrupted. Cannons would require a boost of some kind to bring them on par with Beams and make them competitive again.
I agree. The weapons need a massive revamp such as this, but there would be sooo much work involved in this I really doubt it'll ever happen.
Doesn't matter. If we did things your way we would just ignore the base DPS of weapons and buff whatever we want to be buffed. They were balanced that way for a reason. The only thing in error here is your judgment.
The firing arcs have nothing to do with the DPS considerations. They have everything to do with the fact that escorts are more agile than cruisers, which can't effectively use cannons due to their poor turn rate. Let alone the fact that most of the cruisers and science vessels in the game can't use cannons and nerfing beams would mean an overall DPS nerf to most cruisers and science vessels.
Cruisers are slow cumbersome things that were meant to broadside. Buffing cannons and nerfing beams and saying "Well, just use cannons" isn't balance. That's your bias.
A lot of these ideas would turn STO into Escorts Online again, like it was years ago. IMO in terms of DPS between escorts, cruisers, and science vessels, the game is better balanced now. Which is what everyone wanted years ago. Now what we are seeing is forum whine because escorts aren't the undisputed DPS kings anymore. So what? Back to being Escorts Online?
Make up your damn minds.
I'm not suggesting base DPS ought to be ignored, I'm merely suggesting it is not the sole consideration when discussing and determining practical DPS--there are other variables and factors, such as firing arcs, Boff abilities, and damage fall off in relation to the context of the encounters players face.
I never said anything about nerfing beams.
Firing arcs absolutely have relevance to practical DPS in the current meta.
The fact remains that beams are still objectively superior to cannons in the current meta, which means balance is already compromised, despite your initial assertion which is still erroneous.
The game is more homogenized now, which shouldn't be confused with being more balanced. Balance in the context of an MMO is used to describe relatively equal footing among diverse skillsets and playstyles. It isn't unheard of for MMOs to become more homogenized when their respective dev teams struggle to maintain balance among diverse player options. I gather that's what has happened here. As a result, there's not much diversity at present.
but unfortunately we are at the point where it is better to use beams on your escort too...
so, it is not by any measure in a balanced state...it just shifted to beams.
it is probably not as bad as it was during "escorts online", but we almost reached the other end of the spectrum considering the buffs to BFAW and BO combined with weapon power management that seems to benefit beams more at the moment.
at this point DBB and BFAW is by far better than DHC and scatter volley
maybe a balancing approach via the powers and abilities would be a nice idea and not necessarely buffing or nerfing the weapons themselves.
scatter volley and rapid fire lasting the full 15 seconds maybe? or simply adjusting their dmg multiplicator.
as I said and others have indicated, the pendulum has probably reached full beam side, and I don't want to see it go back full cannon side again in a few month (or years). Cryptic should be able to reach the middle by now.
oh lol, what am I talking, we'll certainly see cannons coming back in the near future...full circle, or nothing, that's how cryptic rolls!
personally I still use my cannons from back then, stopped searching for the last bits of dmg some time ago anyway. Even single cannons are fine to do missions and STFs anyway. And I haven'T done PVP in 2 years or more, so it really doesn't matter to me. It would if there was some achievement locked behind "doable only with golden DBB"... but there isn't.
Because for some reason people still believe that Nerfs are the road to parity which is obviously ridiculous.
The way to create variation in builds and styles is to do exactly what you suggested, give players several good options and let them choose which one to use.
The idea that you create variety by finding the best abilities and reducing their effectiveness is frankly downright stupid.
Some peeps constantly bring in the argumentation that it’s all the same and just a matter of “piloting” to compensate for the damage drop in case of DC and DHC.
I don’t think that covers it. The largest part of the reason why beam builds are favoured to cannons is the boff power fire at will (in essence fire at multiple targets in your arcs to deliver your damage). The only counterpart for cannons is scatter volley. And just there lies the problem! When one is forced to stick closer to the opponents the available angle rapidly covers less and less targets while it covers more when you keep your distance. Because of the much better damage drop for beams it’s far less noticeable there when using FAW. I think that just this is the main flaw on the topic beams vs. cannons under the current meta which your idea perfectly addresses OP.
Thumbs up from me. Leave it to cryptic to decide. As alternative they could also force the same damage drop we have on cannons on beams. Curious how many would rage instead of resorting to “good piloting” skills then.
Just kidding, no nerfs! Adjust Cannons.
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This would make sense for me:
Beams = large arcs, average damage, energy efficient, higher accuracy on long range, low damage drop on distance, effective vs. shields
cannons = narrow arcs, high damage, large weapon drain, low accuracy on long range, high damage drop on distance, effective vs. hull
Changing damage fall off only benefits those who wont pilot their ships into 2kms range regardless if you are using beams or cannons.
If we do have a hypothetical removal of all damage fall off mechanics for energy weapons, those doing low dps now, will still do lower DPS because they cannot take advantage of the point blank shot trait which is a Cat2 buff.
Regardless, in the current mechanics, you still get bad dps the farther you are from the mobs even if you are using beams. This obsession of change damage fall off would just turn cannon DPS from 10 kms from worst to worse. And cannon users who are far away will still do lousy dps.
This means any damage fall off changes wont benefit cannon users who are actually good at piloting cannons at the current mechanics. Which means the damage ceiling remains the same between beams and cannons.
Lets be honest...who...anyone...who knows what they're doing goes into a STF and constantly fires base weapons...never uses a buff? Besides maybe the torpedo sci ship that threw a omni in the back for SST?
You're going to be doing no DPS at all without CSV or FaW.
At least with Escorts it took some skill...a little work and balance to earn that power...beams all you have to do is park in a spot and FaW and bam...360 degree coverage.
Where is the logic in the easiest weapon to use being the most powerful? While the harder weapons to use are a joke and doing half the dps?
Well it's more than that...beams have it made in every single way except like kamiyama said base damage (Which truly means little in this game)
They don't suffer range penalties like cannons
They use less weapon power than cannons
They can actually hit targets 360 around their ship
They have more meaningful buffs (R&D for example...6% damage vs a tiny turn rate buff)
They have overcap for some reason and cannons don't benefit from this (Or whatever it's called...I just woke up
They just have all the positives and none of the negatives really.
Beams can play it safe and kite at 10km. Cannons need to point their bows forward and basically Trench Run their targets for maximum damage, but said damage is far greater than what a kiting beamboat can manage (on a single-target basis).
I'm fine with the damage drop-off on cannons; I just wish that they permitted a bit more flexibility with cannons. Let us mount single cannons on the aft and craft [Arc] single cannons that can be mounted on both the front and aft (and unrestricted compared to [Arc] beams and [Arc] DHCs). That alone would give cannons a poor but workable version of FAW via CSV without requiring any balance changes.
We also need a few new skills and traits that benefit cannons specifically; so far the only two I recall off the top of my head being cannon-specific were the Manasa's Starship Mastery Trait and the JHSS' Starship Mastery Trait. Everything else mostly benefited both beams and cannons.
Or failing any changes to cannons, introduce pulsed beams similar to the Vaadwaur Polarons. Pulsed Phasers is also an easy candidate; just pull it from JJTrek. Then just introduce a Beam: Rapid Fire I-III, which fires multiple pulses of beams at one target. Damage output is lower than B:O, but at least the pulsed visual will be a storm of multiple beam pulses.