test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

on the relationship between Nerfs, powers, and PvP...

this one's for the PvE crowd.

PvP bears no relationship to changes in how the mechanics of your DPS machines work.

NONE.

PvP has no relationship with decisions made at Cryptic.

NONE.

PvP is not even considered when Cryptic releases a new weapon/console/trait or Power.

PvP has zero influence on the Devs rushing to change how any given weapon, trait, console or power works. There is no Dev involved in PvP, there are no Devs that play PvP, there are no Devs that read the PvP forums, discuss PvP, involve themselves IN PvP discussions, or listen to PvP players.

There is a reason every thread (including, likely, this one) is binned to the PvP forums regardless of the actual content of said thread.

PvP development is not, and has not been, on the schedule since 2011 or so-about the time Gozer left.

The change to the Tier 4 Romulan Rep shield power? NOTHING to do with PvP.
The change to the tier 4 Romulan Rep placate? NOTHING to do with PvP.
Change to Neutronic torpedoes? NOTHING to do with PvP
BFAW/Beam Overload/etc. changes in 2014? NOTHING to do with PvP.
Changes to Particle gens, grav wells, Subnucleonic beam, etc. :NOTHING to do with PvP.
Changes to Cloaking mechanics/Emergency Power to Aux: NOTHING to do with PvP.
Changes to Embassy consoles: NOTHING TO DO WITH PVP.

Get it through your heads, guys, you're blaming people with less-than-zero influence. When Cryptic changes a power in a way you don't like, it is solely and completely for Cryptic's own internal reasons. Developers and staffers at Cryptic that have actually reached out in the past to the PvP community are now, to a man, working elsewhere. (Well, except Borticus, but he publicly disavowed and condemned it, effectively buying himself forgiveness from the higher-ups for having ever actually spoken with/worked with PvP in the past.)

Per the developers themselves, PvP isn't and will not be on the list of things that get worked on. It's a vestigal leftover left mainly because they haven't figured out how to excise it entirely without violating the licensing contract that lets them put "Star Trek" on the headers for the game.

Keep this in perspective: There are no 'Friends' of PvP on staff. The range is from actively hostile to the activity (Geko) to contemptuous apathy (Bort and others). It's not the PvP players, not even the vocal, analytical types like Snipey or Mancom (Hilbert) that got any of those changes to your favourite exploit of the quarter.

PvP has no influence over Cryptic. NONE. If anything, it has 'Anti-influence'-meaning that whatever a PvP'er suggests, Cryptic will seek to do the opposite or inverse when convenient, with a preference to do nothing at all.

They don't play it, don't pay attention to it, don't want it, don't want the players that do play it here-they have to endure the existence of PvP players, and do so reluctantly and with great hostility.

Point your pitchforks and your blame in the right direction. The decision to release untested, unfinished, broken mechanics resides solely on Cryptic. The decision to patch, break, or break further those mechanics also rests solely on Cryptic. Their motivations for doing so are internal and bear zero resemblance to any reaction to PvP players pointing out flaws, unforeseen consequences, or outright abuseability of exploits.

Comments

  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    You can see the amount of leverage PVP has by the amount of attention Cryptic gives it. Patrickngo covers most of it but there's a few more.

    Kerrat, the few Arena Match maps, the Capture & Hold maps? Those are the same, EXACT maps that STO had for PVP when it launched in 2010. For 5 years of this game's existence, it has gotten nothing new but a shuttle instance. There aren't new modes of PVP. There aren't any Ladders, Ranking System, no stat tracking even though those were asked for years ago.

    PVP has absolutely zero leverage, zero representation with Cryptic. You can see that in the state of PVP in STO. Dead.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    While they may make noted changes due to broken mechanics, it is usually first complained about by the very same PVP crowd, that gets the so called broken mechanics noticed by the Dev's!

    Otherwise, you don't see tons of PVE player's complaining as much, if it works to their advantage against HP sponges and npc mobs!

    So, it's no wonder people blame the PVP crowd, not that the PVE crowd isn't at fault themselves!

    Both parties, bring up matters to the Dev's!
    Post edited by shadowwraith77 on
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • risingwolfshadowrisingwolfshadow Member Posts: 619 Arc User
    The PvE crowd is largely at fault for the current state of the game!! They fuel Gecko and the path he's taken this game on and then dump their rage on the PvP community when they realise all that support backfired.

    It's no wonder Gecko never comments or joins in in the forums. He'd be verbally slaughtered, and it wouldn't be by the PvP crowd most of us are way past caring and on to the "I told you so" stage!
  • risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,711 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    Does it really matter who reports broken stuff? It's broken, it needs to be fixed.

    Of course it may matter more in PvP, but if people would think about it for a minute, I doubt anyone would say that it's just fine to leave stuff broken. Or does anyone actually enjoy playing a PvE mission where all enemies are vaporised within seconds, before you can get even close to them? Does anyone actually think that stuff is working fine when one ability or equipping one type of console allows for defeating enemies in a fraction of the time that it was designed to take? Does anyone actually belief that it's their right to have broken OP stuff, because they couldn't reasonably expect and foresee that it would get fixed in the future?

    If so, get real. Of course they can't leave stuff broken when things like described above are happening. And I don't really see the point of 'crowds' blaming each other and getting into a fight who reported stuff first and who broke other players' 'toys'.
  • praxi5praxi5 Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    Thanks @patrickngo, that's a great summary of how it works.

    Another thing that people love to throw at our feet is "WELL, WE NEED THIS SUPER HIGH DPS IN ORDER TO DEAL WITH THE MILLIONS OF HP THAT NPCs HAVE!"

    Well... why do you think the NPCs even have that much HP to begin with? That was Cryptic's way of addressing the appallingly high amount of damage that some could get and the alarmingly high damage that many could get.

    If the overall power creep were toned down, which is exactly what PvPers have been saying forever, then we could return to more acceptable levels of NPC HP.

    Huh... who would have thought that PvP balance would have a positive effect on PvE? (Hint: anyone that actually PvPs or understands how these mechanics play out)
    It's no wonder Gecko never comments or joins in in the forums. He'd be verbally slaughtered, and it wouldn't be by the PvP crowd most of us are way past caring and on to the "I told you so" stage!

    He did once, on Reddit. It was basically "I have a boss, too, so I get an undue amount of hate from you guys." It did not end well.
    risian4 wrote: »
    I doubt anyone would say that it's just fine to leave stuff broken.

    Kind of ironic, considering how the Plasma Explosion "fix" was to break it :p
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    Players love to blame PvP players for everything. When the deflector officer doffs effect, the 10th tick of Tachyon Beam, Grav Well and Tyken's Rift, or the Energy Siphon (Juel Ducane) doff were fixed, nobody said anything. It's not all nerfs.

  • praxi5praxi5 Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    lucho80 wrote: »
    Players love to blame PvP players for everything. When the deflector officer doffs effect, the 10th tick of Tachyon Beam, Grav Well and Tyken's Rift, or the Energy Siphon (Juel Ducane) doff were fixed, nobody said anything. It's not all nerfs.

    Nor did anyone complain when FAW was (originally) fixed and buffed. Or Torp Spread. Or CPB. Or Tachyon Beam. Or Tetryons. Or Polarons. Or...

    Yeah. We're not all nerfs, people.
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    lucho80 wrote: »
    Players love to blame PvP players for everything. When the deflector officer doffs effect, the 10th tick of Tachyon Beam, Grav Well and Tyken's Rift, or the Energy Siphon (Juel Ducane) doff were fixed, nobody said anything. It's not all nerfs.

    Well, I guess we can blame them for getting results in general!

    ;)
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • happyhappyj0yj0yhappyhappyj0yj0y Member Posts: 699 Arc User
    While they may make noted changes due to broken mechanics, it is usually first complained about by the very same PVP crowd, that gets the so called broken mechanics noticed by the Dev's!

    Really? You think Cryptic needs the PvPers to post complaint topics to notice something like this?

    Keep in mind Cryptic is the company that will put a shiny carrot behind a grind wall so you have to ram your head into it repeatedly in order to get that carrot. You can't not get that carrot because it's too shiny, and you'll suffer for it (in things like completion time) if you don't get it. So everyone is banging their heads off that wall trying to get that carrot and some people, just some people will come onto the forums and complain that ramming their heads into the wall isn't fun and they don't want to do it and Cryptic will tell them, "Hey, you're wrong buddy because our metrics show tonnes of people banging their heads against that wall! So obviously people like banging their heads against the wall, and it's fun and awesome and you just don't know what you're taking about. By the way, have you heard about Delta Rising and how the players love it!?"

    Cryptic doesn't listen to people, they listen to metrics and they are gleefully open about this. People's complaints and opinions tend to fall on deaf ears.

    So... when people start completing Elite STFs in literally seconds and one-shotting cubes and that starts showing up in their metrics... you don't think they noticed?

    And they certainly don't need the PvP crowd to tell them why. They have metrics and logs to parse. They have builds posted in the forum "shipyards", they have DPS channels, they have videos on Youtube of people doing it. They have the information in their databases, and even if they didn't the PvE crowd is handing it to them on a platter ad nauseam.

    And this...
    Otherwise, you don't see tons of PVE player's complaining as much, if it works to their advantage against HP sponges and npc mobs!

    ... Well... this...
    praxi5 wrote: »
    Another thing that people love to throw at our feet is "WELL, WE NEED THIS SUPER HIGH DPS IN ORDER TO DEAL WITH THE MILLIONS OF HP THAT NPCs HAVE!"

    Well... why do you think the NPCs even have that much HP to begin with? That was Cryptic's way of addressing the appallingly high amount of damage that some could get and the alarmingly high damage that many could get.

    If the overall power creep were toned down, which is exactly what PvPers have been saying forever, then we could return to more acceptable levels of NPC HP.

    As soon as there is a bump in the metrics, Cryptic has to address it. They have a choice:
    1. Embrace it, and it becomes the new meta.
    2. Nerf it.

    That's the list of options. Full stop. They know the completion times they want and adjust to compensate. So they either adjust the game, increasing mob HP and lowering optional completion timers to get the median back to where they want it, or they adjust the outlier that's caused the issue.

    If they adjusted the game that effectively puts everyone who bought and upgraded those consoles back to square one. They aren't completing content any faster because the mobs have more hit points to smash through. Essentially you get indirectly nerfed back to where you were before. So you're right back to where you started prior to the broken consoles. And everyone else? Well, they either have to get, upgrade and use those consoles, or they fall behind.

    So what does that do for build diversity? What does it do to Exchange prices for Science consoles competing for those slots? What effect does it have on Tactical and Engineering consoles, and their attractiveness when it comes to decisions on where to place universal consoles?

    If they embrace it, and adjust the game, they immediately devalue every build not using these things, and every other console in the game.

    And if they adjust the consoles, like they did? Well, it makes other consoles more valuable. Other builds more viable. The people not using these consoles are unaffected. The people using them aren't any further behind than before they were using these consoles. It's a quicker fix for Cryptic since it's adjusting one outlier instead of an entire game to match said outlier, which means more developer time freed up for other pursuits.

    So... really, one option was detrimental on a bunch of levels, and the other... basically set some people back some dilithium which they ended up spending on a temporary boost in effectiveness.

    The decision was a no-brainer, and Cryptic made the right one.

    They just "fixed" it very, very poorly.
  • storulesstorules Member Posts: 3,340 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Changes to Embassy consoles: NOTHING TO DO WITH PVP.


    The problem is NOT with PvP. Problem is with players that have bruised ego's as in:
    http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1197379/no-plasma-explosions-arent-op-edit-cryptic-has-now-fixed-them-by-breaking-them-further-ugh

    If you don't know how to PvP even on solo matches might as well stay from it. Nobody is forcing anyone to match. This is what killed Foundry Dil bonus before the huge nerf, Argala grind and YES PvP. Not the act itself of PvP but those who loudly whine about a match they are not suppossed to play.

    There will always be a BETTER player than onself. No matter of whining or nerfing will fix that fox-1.gif
    ​​
    tumblr_ncbngkt24X1ry46hlo1_400.gif
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    storules wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Changes to Embassy consoles: NOTHING TO DO WITH PVP.


    The problem is NOT with PvP. Problem is with players that have bruised ego's as in:
    http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1197379/no-plasma-explosions-arent-op-edit-cryptic-has-now-fixed-them-by-breaking-them-further-ugh

    If you don't know how to PvP even on solo matches might as well stay from it. Nobody is forcing anyone to match. This is what killed Foundry Dil bonus before the huge nerf, Argala grind and YES PvP. Not the act itself of PvP but those who loudly whine about a match they are not suppossed to play.

    There will always be a BETTER player than onself. No matter of whining or nerfing will fix that fox-1.gif
    ​​

    Terribly unbalanced gameplay makes PVP unplayable, did you know that? For years the PVP community, when it still was around, brought up every imbalanced, overpowered issue. But the TRIBBLE still persisted. One or two things didn't kill PVP, didn't make it unaplayable. Many things did and the Plasma Explosions were a pretty big one with no counter. Even the old Embassy Plasma Burn Consoles, as strong as they were, at least had a counter against them. Not the Plasma Explosions.

    As for the Dil Bonus nerf, that was due to some TRIBBLE holding Fight Clubs to exploit the system. This had nothing to do with the guys hitting the PVP queues, hitting Kerrat, or the actual PVP matches held for... You know... PVP and not a Dil Fight Club. You didn't even need to be a PVPer to do that Dil Fight Club Exploit.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • captainoblivouscaptainoblivous Member Posts: 2,284 Arc User
    DOOOOOOOOOOOM!
    I need a beer.

  • coupaholiccoupaholic Member Posts: 2,188 Arc User
    There will always be a reason, and they'll always be someone to blame.

    If it's not the DPS'er it's the PvP'er.
    If it's not the PvP'er it's the Whale
    If it's not the Whale it's the Troll
    If it's not the Troll it's Gecko or the devs
    If it's not the devs it's just Cryptic in general
    If it's not Cryptic it's PWI in general

    And so the vicious circle continues. Like some cynical forumite circle of life.​​
  • praxi5praxi5 Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    storules wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Changes to Embassy consoles: NOTHING TO DO WITH PVP.


    The problem is NOT with PvP. Problem is with players that have bruised ego's as in:
    http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1197379/no-plasma-explosions-arent-op-edit-cryptic-has-now-fixed-them-by-breaking-them-further-ugh

    If you don't know how to PvP even on solo matches might as well stay from it. Nobody is forcing anyone to match. This is what killed Foundry Dil bonus before the huge nerf, Argala grind and YES PvP. Not the act itself of PvP but those who loudly whine about a match they are not suppossed to play.

    There will always be a BETTER player than onself. No matter of whining or nerfing will fix that fox-1.gif
    ​​

    Did... did you even read that thread? It's entirely understandable to not read the whole thing, but I think it's fair to expect you to read the OP of a thread that you're quoting.

    Did you miss the part where I said it's not about losing? Did you miss the part where I said I don't mind losing at all? Did you miss the part where it was highlighting a balance issue?

    If you didn't even read the OP, then I'm assuming that you didn't happen to see all of the posts (many made by top PvEers, mind you) that point out how detrimental it is to PvE as well?

    ... and are you seriously trying to pin a Foundry and Argala nerf, something that we literally had nothing to do with, on PvP?
  • storulesstorules Member Posts: 3,340 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    praxi5 wrote: »

    Did... did you even read that thread? It's entirely understandable to not read the whole thing, but I think it's fair to expect you to read the OP of a thread that you're quoting.

    Did you miss the part where I said it's not about losing? Did you miss the part where I said I don't mind losing at all? Did you miss the part where it was highlighting a balance issue?

    If you didn't even read the OP, then I'm assuming that you didn't happen to see all of the posts (many made by top PvEers, mind you) that point out how detrimental it is to PvE as well?

    ... and are you seriously trying to pin a Foundry and Argala nerf, something that we literally had nothing to do with, on PvP?


    Kind of ironic...before posting..read. Nobody is BLAMING foundry, Argala nerf or PvP...is the PEOPLE who WHINE the real culprits. Hope you are happy dude! and will leave at that.
    ​​
    tumblr_ncbngkt24X1ry46hlo1_400.gif
  • praxi5praxi5 Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    storules wrote: »
    Kind of ironic...before posting..read. Nobody is BLAMING foundry, Argala nerf or PvP...is the PEOPLE who WHINE the real culprits. Hope you are happy dude! and will leave at that.
    ​​

    ... and so you're whining about whining?

    And is it really whining? Or is it point out obvious flaws in the game (that need corrected), while the people who are upset about the changes the ones that are whining?
  • risingwolfshadowrisingwolfshadow Member Posts: 619 Arc User
    storules wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Changes to Embassy consoles: NOTHING TO DO WITH PVP.


    The problem is NOT with PvP. Problem is with players that have bruised ego's as in:
    http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1197379/no-plasma-explosions-arent-op-edit-cryptic-has-now-fixed-them-by-breaking-them-further-ugh

    If you don't know how to PvP even on solo matches might as well stay from it. Nobody is forcing anyone to match. This is what killed Foundry Dil bonus before the huge nerf, Argala grind and YES PvP. Not the act itself of PvP but those who loudly whine about a match they are not suppossed to play.

    There will always be a BETTER player than onself. No matter of whining or nerfing will fix that fox-1.gif
    ​​

    Yeah... I don't think you have a grasp on the situation...

    The squeaky wheel gets the oil mate.
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    "Hmm. This nail is sticking out way far."

    WHACK

    Normalization in play; If something is way too out of hand, it needs to be brought back.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • captainoblivouscaptainoblivous Member Posts: 2,284 Arc User
    "Hmm. This nail is sticking out way far."

    WHACK

    Normalization in play; If something is way too out of hand, it needs to be brought back.

    Sometimes, the nail sticks out for a reason.
    I need a beer.

  • happyhappyj0yj0yhappyhappyj0yj0y Member Posts: 699 Arc User
    Sometimes, the nail sticks out for a reason.

    So you can hang a picture on it?

    And by "picture" I mean "build". And by "hang" I mean "prop up". And by "prop up a build on it" I mean "base a half-assed build around it so you don't have to do any real work to get significantly past what was once the DPS median which people were previously exceeding by putting in time and effort (and dilithium, ec and zen)".

    Problem is that if Cryptic doesn't smash that nail down they'll have to bust out the lath and plaster and build out the wall to meet it since they don't want you hanging any pretty pictures there. And by "lath" I mean "NPC hit point buffs" and by "plaster" I mean "reduced STF timers" and by "wall" I mean "projected average completion times for content".

    Aren't metaphors fun!? ;)
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    Terribly unbalanced gameplay makes PVP unplayable, did you know that? For years the PVP community, when it still was around, brought up every imbalanced, overpowered issue. But the TRIBBLE still persisted. One or two things didn't kill PVP, didn't make it unaplayable. Many things did and the Plasma Explosions were a pretty big one with no counter. Even the old Embassy Plasma Burn Consoles, as strong as they were, at least had a counter against them. Not the Plasma Explosions.

    Finally a PvP-er with at least the guts to admit all these nerfs are PvP-community instigated. And a remarkable amount of nerfs caused by the same 2 PvP-ers now running around saying it wasn't PvP at all, btw:

    Nerf to SS3 (praxi5, patrickngo)
    Nerf to IT (praxi5, patrickngo)
    Attempted Nerf to Immunities (praxi5)
    Nerf to Plasma Consoles (praxi5)

    Etc.

    At least be like warmaker001b, and just admit all these nerfs are PvP-related.

    Me? I've never asked for a nerf. If others have a shiny toy, let them have it, is my philosophy. And that's because I'm a PvE-er, and things like 'unbalanced', 'unfair to got one-shot', etc, really only have meaning within PvP. So, let's stop pretending it's not about PvP, k? You guys act like the NRA, where every time there's a major highschool shooting incident, they quickly come out of the woodworks, telling everyone it's not gun-possession that caused it. Stop the pretense. Please.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • praxi5praxi5 Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Finally a PvP-er with at least the guts to admit all these nerfs are PvP-community instigated. And a remarkable amount of nerfs caused by the same 2 PvP-ers now running around saying it wasn't PvP at all, btw:

    Nerf to SS3 (praxi5, patrickngo)
    Nerf to IT (praxi5, patrickngo)
    Attempted Nerf to Immunities (praxi5)
    Nerf to Plasma Consoles (praxi5)

    Etc.

    At least be like warmaker001b, and just admit all these nerfs are PvP-related.

    Me? I've never asked for a nerf. If others have a shiny toy, let them have it, is my philosophy. And that's because I'm a PvE-er, and things like 'unbalanced', 'unfair to got one-shot', etc, really only have meaning within PvP. So, let's stop pretending it's not about PvP, k? You guys act like the NRA, where every time there's a major highschool shooting incident, they quickly come out of the woodworks, telling everyone it's not gun-possession that caused it. Stop the pretense. Please.

    lol, the audacity of this post.

    How many times does a Dev have to say that something is, by their own measurements and design intentions, overperforming and that is the reason behind a nerf?

    Does it matter who brings it to their attention? If something is broken, they'll look at it. If it is indeed doing more than it should, it will be nerfed - it doesn't matter if it's a PvPer, PvEer, or Space Barbie RP hero that says it.

    End of story.

    How many times must I say that I primarily PvE now, to a ratio of more than 10:1 (10 PvE queues to 1 PvE Arena)? Doesn't that make my posts relevent to PvE? The fact that I use PvP as examples is to show the extreme outlying nature of things - if they have those effects on buffed up, intelligent, and defensive players, then surely they're out of line against defenseless NPC meatbags?

    How many times must we show that balance in PvP helps balance in PvE? How do you think we ended up in this overblown NPC HP situation?

    But, let's go over those line items, shall we?
    • Surgical Strikes nerf: Devs themselves stated it was doing more damage than it should.
    • Ionic Turbulence: Geko himself didn't realize the full extent of it's capabilities and immediately got around to getting it fixed.
    • (Attempted) Immunities: ... even PvEers are saying that the (potential) 42 seconds out of every 60 is excessive. And many, many players think that a lockout is more than reasonable.
    • Plasma consoles: The broken nature has been pointed out since their inception, by many posters in Tribble feedback. Snipey recently had a video showing how broken it was. And, since you want to pin this one on me, you can't conveniently leave out that I myself stated that Crits weren't the issue, it was their scaling. The Devs themselves were the ones who pulled a (base) damage nerf out of nowhere, indicating that they themselves felt that it was overperforming on damage. Tell me, honestly. Did you really believe that Plasma consoles should be outperforming even Tac consoles?

    Why are you ignoring all of the things that have gotten buffed, as well? If the PvP community, myself, or Patrick have this magical ability to bring about nerfs, what about the other things that we've called for that have gotten buffed? Tachyon Beam, Tyken's Rift, Polaron/Tetryons, Charged Particle Burst, Torpedo Spread, etc etc.

    What about the things that we're even still asking to get buffed and fixed? Scatter Volley, more tweaks to Pol/Tet, Aceton Beam, etc etc.
  • shpoksshpoks Member Posts: 6,967 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Finally a PvP-er with at least the guts to admit all these nerfs are PvP-community instigated. And a remarkable amount of nerfs caused by the same 2 PvP-ers now running around saying it wasn't PvP at all, btw:

    Nerf to SS3 (praxi5, patrickngo)
    Nerf to IT (praxi5, patrickngo)
    Attempted Nerf to Immunities (praxi5)
    Nerf to Plasma Consoles (praxi5)

    Etc.

    At least be like warmaker001b, and just admit all these nerfs are PvP-related.

    Me? I've never asked for a nerf. If others have a shiny toy, let them have it, is my philosophy. And that's because I'm a PvE-er, and things like 'unbalanced', 'unfair to got one-shot', etc, really only have meaning within PvP. So, let's stop pretending it's not about PvP, k? You guys act like the NRA, where every time there's a major highschool shooting incident, they quickly come out of the woodworks, telling everyone it's not gun-possession that caused it. Stop the pretense. Please.

    Is it actually possible that someone can be this clueless??? :astonished: What world do you live in?

    Let me clear this up for you:

    Nerf to SS3 (Cryptic devs)
    Nerf to IT (Cryptic devs)
    Nerf to Plasma Consoles (Cryptic devs)

    LOL @ attempted to nerf Immunities! :D Are we counting and arguing about "attempts" now? :lol::lol: I'll get back to you on this one in a couple of days, I need some time to write the essay naming everyone that attempted to remove PvP, attempted to remove the KDF, attempted to nerf BoPs, attempted to nerf cannons, attempted to nerf escorts, attempted to remove science, attempted to nerf the Scimitar, etc., etc. lol :lol:

    You have no clue as to what you're talkig about. You're just crying over this because you don't seem to want to or can't understand how things work.
    If you want to blame someone for nerfs, don't blame the people that noticed and reported how broken, whacked or unballanced something is, blame Cryptic who rushes content on the live server without proper testing. They're the ones nerfing things because they're the ones pushing out broken stuff and then when they realize what they've done they need to "adjust" stuff. If they had a clue as to what they're doing and actually invested some time in properly testing the stuff they release on the live server, we wouldn't have issues like these and no one would report broken items because there would be none.

    Your philosophy is inapplicable in a game environment such as this one. What if Cryptic releases a BoP for the KDF that vaporates cubes in seconds, having KDF players clearing up STFs in seconds just like the 5.3 Mil DPS bug and making everyone else get the AFK penalty? It's my shiny toy, so I can haz it, right? It costs as much as your average T6 cruiser only mine does X10.000 the DPS because lolz oooh shiny!!! How about making elite fleet phasers doing 10 times the damage of other weapons, because what the hell, right, it's our shiny toy?

    This issue has PvP implications, but as others have pointed out - it's not PvP related. Why do you deserve to have 70% more DPS potential then me just because you use a beam cruiser and I use a cannon raptor when we both paid the same for those consoles? This is ok and fair for you??
    You want to point a finger about the nerfs? Point it at Cryptic, the ones that created this problem, the ones that said it was WAI while knowing it's not working, the ones that released it live in a broken state, the ones that had to nerf it because it was broken as hell and at the end of the day - the ones that decided to completely break it rather than completely fix it because they can't be bothered to fix it for the time being. Not at people that care enough about the game to test, track and report stuff that's not working properly. Sheesh.
    HQroeLu.jpg
  • happyhappyj0yj0yhappyhappyj0yj0y Member Posts: 699 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Finally a PvP-er with at least the guts to admit all these nerfs are PvP-community instigated. And a remarkable amount of nerfs caused by the same 2 PvP-ers now running around saying it wasn't PvP at all, btw:

    [...]

    Me? I've never asked for a nerf. If others have a shiny toy, let them have it, is my philosophy. And that's because I'm a PvE-er, and things like 'unbalanced', 'unfair to got one-shot', etc, really only have meaning within PvP.

    Only have meaning in PvP? You don't read the patch notes, do you?

    Are the PvP crowd also responsible for the hit point gain in the NPCs they don't fight because they're fighting each other? Are they also responsible for the decreasing optional timers and mark rewards in the STFs they're not playing because they're PvPing? Are they responsible for the overall nerf to the rewards of the patrols they don't play either? To the DOff system rewards?

    No. The PvP crowd isn't responsible for nerfs. You know who's responsible? You. Yes, you. And me. And everyone else playing PvE because that's what Cryptic cares about, and the metrics they focus on.

    Here's a hint from Cryptic's own patch notes:
    All patrol rewards of Skill Points, Expertise and Dilithium are relative to the amount of time they take to complete.

    Rewards are meant to relative to the amount of time content takes to complete. Cryptic wants you to make X amount of Y per hour. They have an expected rate for the average player. For instance, according to Cryptic the average player is expected to make ~480 Dilithium Ore per 15 minutes (so 1920 per hour). Rewards are set up so that the average player will make that. Better players will make more, worse will make less.

    So when the average player starts doing dramatically more damage, what happens? Completion times go down. That means the average players starts making more dilithium/marks/skill point per hour than what Cryptic wants. Cryptic loves metrics. They know this is happening. They don't need anyone to make a topic complaining for that, and if someone does they don't care (how many times does Geko need to call the forums as a whole the "vocal minority" while pointing at a spreadsheet to prove his claims that we know nothing before the naive get it?).

    What Cryptic cares about is keeping rewards at a certain pace to keep the carrots far enough out of reach of the average player that it will keep people playing trying to get said carrot. So when something makes the stick shorter, and the carrot closer they take notice and will react. So they need to do something. One option is to nerf the outlier, removing the change in completion times. Another is to increase the difficulty (read: NPC hit points and optional timers) to compensate for the increase damage and restore completion times to what they were. Lastly they can reduce rewards so that their per hour statistics return to normal, which is the least likely because it looks bad (while not everyone can effectively parse combat logs, or notice a 10% difference in effectiveness everyone will notice a payout written down in black and white going from 10,000xp to 9,000xp).

    And there's your culprit. If you don't like your current completion times either get better without using the same broken features the average schmo is using so you exceed the average, or convince everyone else to adopt worse builds and tactics so the average goes down. Those are your effective long term options...
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    praxi5 wrote: »
    How many times does a Dev have to say that something is, by their own measurements and design intentions, overperforming and that is the reason behind a nerf?

    And this here is the pretense I was talking about. No, Bort didn't just nerf SS3 of his own accord. He only did so after you and patrickngo (under a different name then) endlessly badgered him about it, thread after thread. And then, when Bort finally caved, of course he didn't say "Praxi5 and patrickngo made me do it." Instead he just said something generic about metrics, and he had 'suddenly' decided it needed a huge nerf. SS3 was nerfed because the PvP-community couldn't handle it, and was screaming for a nerf. Same as with Ionic Turbulance. Simple as that.

    See, that's what I don't get about you: you're at the center of most nerfs, yet, when confronted, you always pretend you had nothing to do with it. If you feel the nerfs are justified, why not just openly admit it's you who's asking?!
    How many times must we show that balance in PvP helps balance in PvE? How do you think we ended up in this overblown NPC HP situation?

    Power creep didn't cause the 'overblown NPC HP situation.' Ere the opposite: Geko wanted to make content harder, so people would be inclined to buy into the whole Upgrade system.
    Why are you ignoring all of the things that have gotten buffed, as well? If the PvP community, myself, or Patrick have this magical ability to bring about nerfs, what about the other things that we've called for that have gotten buffed? Tachyon Beam, Tyken's Rift, Polaron/Tetryons, Charged Particle Burst, Torpedo Spread, etc etc.

    What about the things that we're even still asking to get buffed and fixed? Scatter Volley, more tweaks to Pol/Tet, Aceton Beam, etc etc.

    If you are responsible for getting those things buffed, then I thank you for it.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • askrayaskray Member Posts: 3,329 Arc User
    This thread is unnecessary.

    No, PvP does not control how STO is made. This has been stated multiple times.

    /closed
    Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care.
    Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
    Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113


This discussion has been closed.