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War: Things we have not tried

I have been looking over various threads and their seems to be a great contempt for using the Krenim weaponship. This spurred the idea of what fun devices, tools, races with advanced powers, and Dues ex machinas have we not used yet in the war with the Iconians?

TOS:
Trelane
Melkotians
Excalibans
Organians
Guardian of Forever
The Original Doomsday Machine (In the novels, Seven got it working again, planet killers are fun)
Slingshot Effect
Spock's Brain
Anti-Matter Bombs (Obsession)
Genesis Device

TOS/TNG:
The Nexus

TNG:
Q
Kevin Uxbridge
Trilithium Torpedoes

DS9:
The Prophets

Voyager:
"Threshold" (Space slugs could always be a super secret weapon right?)

ENT:
Temporal Cold War Factions

So what other fun things can we use against the Iconians?
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Comments

  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    Prophets could be why we haven't been defeated and why the Iconians havent hit Bajor
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,016 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    TOS - The Scalosian hyper-acceleration agent. When someone drinks the water found on Scalos they are shifted into a different time-dimension and become de-facto invulnerable. The war had been long since over if only five people drank it and just casually walked into the Iconians headquarters pig-2.gif​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    TOS - The Scalosian hyper-acceleration agent. When someone drinks the water found on Scalos they are shifted into a different time-dimension and become de-facto invulnerable. The war had been long since over if only five people drank it and just casually walked into the Iconians headquarters pig-2.gif​​

    oh that'd be epic
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,016 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    oh that'd be epic

    Indeed pig-35.gif

    Another point to add to the list: TNG - Wesley and the Traveler and TNG - "Brain Barclay" aka. the alien mind probe technology or TNG - Barclay's Protomorphosis Syndrome (also known as the intron virus) - just devolve the Iconians to... whatever they evolved from pig-2.gif​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    Can't do Spock's brain...

    It's over in JJ-verse now, remember?

    But do we have to stop at one planet killer? Get Seven's (aka the original), B'Vat's, and the "B'Vat Control System" together and throw a party...​​
    Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...

    To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    dareau wrote: »
    Can't do Spock's brain...

    It's over in JJ-verse now, remember?​​
    Humans... such two-dimensional thinking.


    The Planet Killer is an inadequate weapon, by the way. It can be destroyed or disabled with a ship flying into its mouth. The Iconian ship was still flying after a ship collided with it! It would be trivial for the Heralds to disable a Planet Killer. And it was never particularly effective at fighting ships - it was good against planets. Ships only get into trouble if they were dumb enough to fly in front of its mouth, basically.
    But the Iconians have Dyson Spheres, not planets.
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  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 11,443 Community Moderator
    Speaking of the Doomsday Planet Killer, what if, that's what was used to destroy Iconia 200,000 years ago?
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  • yoosty1yoosty1 Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    I have been looking over various threads and their seems to be a great contempt for using the Krenim weaponship. This spurred the idea of what fun devices, tools, races with advanced powers, and Dues ex machinas have we not used yet in the war with the Iconians?

    TOS:
    Trelane
    Melkotians
    Excalibans
    Organians
    Guardian of Forever
    The Original Doomsday Machine (In the novels, Seven got it working again, planet killers are fun)
    Slingshot Effect
    Spock's Brain
    Anti-Matter Bombs (Obsession)
    Genesis Device

    TOS/TNG:
    The Nexus

    TNG:
    Q
    Kevin Uxbridge
    Trilithium Torpedoes

    DS9:
    The Prophets

    Voyager:
    "Threshold" (Space slugs could always be a super secret weapon right?)

    ENT:
    Temporal Cold War Factions

    So what other fun things can we use against the Iconians?

    You forgot about the Phase Cloaking device from the USS Pegasus, Stardate 47457.1 in season 7 of STNG. Which can phase through solid matter while cloak, add the Genesis device with a Phase cloak ship and fly it into the Iconian Sphere and then set it off, no more Heralds' fleet.
  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    the point is... the Federation has the ability to create a ridiculous amount of weapons of mass destruction
  • paxfederaticapaxfederatica Member Posts: 1,496 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    yoosty1 wrote: »
    You forgot about the Phase Cloaking device from the USS Pegasus, Stardate 47457.1 in season 7 of STNG. Which can phase through solid matter while cloak, add the Genesis device with a Phase cloak ship and fly it into the Iconian Sphere and then set it off, no more Heralds' fleet.

    Better yet, equip Dr. Soran's trilithium missile with a phasing cloak and launch it into the star at the heart of the Andromeda Sphere. Then sit back (from a safe distance) and watch said Sphere go boom.​​
  • themetalstickmanthemetalstickman Member Posts: 1,010 Arc User
    Speaking of the Doomsday Planet Killer, what if, that's what was used to destroy Iconia 200,000 years ago?

    Nope. The planet's still there, and more or less in one piece.​​
    Og12TbC.jpg

    Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.

    I dare you to do better.
  • lingeringsoul888lingeringsoul888 Member Posts: 509 Arc User
    why even bother with everyone else when Q is so chummy with us humans. Just ask him for a favor
  • sadorsador Member Posts: 93 Arc User
    I'm wondering why we haven't heard about the Guardian. Seems like a perfect fit. However, it's very much a deus ex machina.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    why even bother with everyone else when Q is so chummy with us humans. Just ask him for a favor
    When has Q ever helped humanity out of a problem he didn't cause himself?
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  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    why even bother with everyone else when Q is so chummy with us humans. Just ask him for a favor
    When has Q ever helped humanity out of a problem he didn't cause himself?

    The Borg?

  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    why even bother with everyone else when Q is so chummy with us humans. Just ask him for a favor
    When has Q ever helped humanity out of a problem he didn't cause himself?

    The Borg?
    The initial counter with the Borg certainly counts as a problem that Q has created himself, didn't it? The Enterprise would have not encountered the Borg there without him. Some speculate that this has warned the Federation of the Borg threat, but: It also informed the Borg about the Federation. And they probably learned a lot more from their access to the Enterprise computer than the Enterprise got from the one-sided battle.
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  • xiaoping88xiaoping88 Member Posts: 1,493 Arc User
    why even bother with everyone else when Q is so chummy with us humans. Just ask him for a favor
    When has Q ever helped humanity out of a problem he didn't cause himself?

    The Borg?
    The initial counter with the Borg certainly counts as a problem that Q has created himself, didn't it? The Enterprise would have not encountered the Borg there without him. Some speculate that this has warned the Federation of the Borg threat, but: It also informed the Borg about the Federation. And they probably learned a lot more from their access to the Enterprise computer than the Enterprise got from the one-sided battle.

    The Borg were already on their way. In TNG, outposts in the Neutral Zone are destroyed by the Collective before Q throws the Enterprise into the way of that cube.

    in ENT, it is explained how the Borg were informed about Earth and the local Alpha-/Beta-Quadrant powers.

    So Q did not cause the Borg dilemma, he indeed prepared the Federation by turning the Borg into a clear and present threat the flagship itself encountered. There was no way the Federation could ignore the Borg after that event.

    Still, Q did not intervene directly. He just set the Feds on their path. If he helps us with the Iconians, it won't be something like just flicking them out of the galaxy - if he is even able to do so.
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  • forthegamerforthegamer Member Posts: 177 Arc User
    While I appreciate the Nexus being on there, it isn't exactly something you could use instantly. You'd need time to figure out how to use it correctly. Sure once you are inside it you have all the time in the world to do so, but until then, not really.

    And even when you are inside the Nexus, you'll still end up TRIBBLE around with time. Which we are going to be doing anyway, so you are just suggesting a different avenue.

    You know, I would hope that it is because of us in STO that the whole Time War actually happens. The amount of **** we do time traveling wise seems to suggest we're like the opening act of it.
  • xiaoping88xiaoping88 Member Posts: 1,493 Arc User
    dark4blood wrote: »
    xiaoping88 wrote: »
    why even bother with everyone else when Q is so chummy with us humans. Just ask him for a favor
    When has Q ever helped humanity out of a problem he didn't cause himself?

    The Borg?
    The initial counter with the Borg certainly counts as a problem that Q has created himself, didn't it? The Enterprise would have not encountered the Borg there without him. Some speculate that this has warned the Federation of the Borg threat, but: It also informed the Borg about the Federation. And they probably learned a lot more from their access to the Enterprise computer than the Enterprise got from the one-sided battle.

    The Borg were already on their way. In TNG, outposts in the Neutral Zone are destroyed by the Collective before Q throws the Enterprise into the way of that cube.

    in ENT, it is explained how the Borg were informed about Earth and the local Alpha-/Beta-Quadrant powers.

    So Q did not cause the Borg dilemma, he indeed prepared the Federation by turning the Borg into a clear and present threat the flagship itself encountered. There was no way the Federation could ignore the Borg after that event.

    Still, Q did not intervene directly. He just set the Feds on their path. If he helps us with the Iconians, it won't be something like just flicking them out of the galaxy - if he is even able to do so.

    ^Please don't use that TRIBBLE of a story Enterprise to explain the Borg, they only did that TRIBBLE because that crappy TRIBBLE show was failing hard. That show did more damage to the Star Trek timeline than Midi-chlorians did to force powers in Star Wars.

    While I agree that specific episode of ENT sucked, the fact that the Borg were already on the move against Federation and Romulan targets before Q threw the Enterprise into the path of that cube was established in TNG. Point stands.
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  • lizweilizwei Member Posts: 936 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    dareau wrote: »
    Can't do Spock's brain...

    It's over in JJ-verse now, remember?​​

    Actually the JJ verse is merely a hallucination caused by Bendii syndrome, and Spock is secretly convalescing on Vulcan.

    *nods*
    Humans... such two-dimensional thinking.


    The Planet Killer is an inadequate weapon, by the way. It can be destroyed or disabled with a ship flying into its mouth. The Iconian ship was still flying after a ship collided with it! It would be trivial for the Heralds to disable a Planet Killer. And it was never particularly effective at fighting ships - it was good against planets. Ships only get into trouble if they were dumb enough to fly in front of its mouth, basically.
    But the Iconians have Dyson Spheres, not planets.

    I'd like to see any piece of technology that operates at peak performance after several million years of constant operation.
    If they bothered to retrofit the thing with some defences, upgrade it's computers and so on it just might do the job.
    Hell if an 8472 attack can bust open a Dyson sphere door, I'm sure the doomsday machine could too, then burn them from the inside.
  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    1. It is established that the Borg were already on their way to Earth. They were doing raids, harvesting and studying the Federation and Romulans. No one had survived an engagement with them until Picard and Picard only survived because of Q.
    2. Enterprise establishes what drew the Borg to Earth and why they came. They got a part of a transmission so they were curious and came raiding.
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 11,443 Community Moderator
    edited July 2015
    dark4blood wrote: »
    ^Please don't use that TRIBBLE of a story Enterprise to explain the Borg, they only did that TRIBBLE because that crappy TRIBBLE show was failing hard. That show did more damage to the Star Trek timeline than Midi-chlorians did to force powers in Star Wars.

    Its quality is, of course, your opinion. That episode was written specifically to address the aftermath of the events of First Contact, though.
    xiaoping88 wrote: »
    While I agree that specific episode of ENT sucked, the fact that the Borg were already on the move against Federation and Romulan targets before Q threw the Enterprise into the path of that cube was established in TNG. Point stands.

    And to address this^, because despite whether you enjoyed ENT or not, the fact remains that the Borg were already moving against the Alpha Quadrant before the events of "Q Who" which had been shown as the first contact between the Federation and the Borg.
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  • lizweilizwei Member Posts: 936 Arc User
    1. It is established that the Borg were already on their way to Earth. They were doing raids, harvesting and studying the Federation and Romulans. No one had survived an engagement with them until Picard and Picard only survived because of Q.
    2. Enterprise establishes what drew the Borg to Earth and why they came. They got a part of a transmission so they were curious and came raiding.

    Enterprise is Riker's holodeck program, nothing seen within can be taken as 100% accurate.
    Especially not Starfleet encountering the Borg and not saving any records for future reference.
  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    lizwei wrote: »
    1. It is established that the Borg were already on their way to Earth. They were doing raids, harvesting and studying the Federation and Romulans. No one had survived an engagement with them until Picard and Picard only survived because of Q.
    2. Enterprise establishes what drew the Borg to Earth and why they came. They got a part of a transmission so they were curious and came raiding.

    Enterprise is Riker's holodeck program, nothing seen within can be taken as 100% accurate.
    Especially not Starfleet encountering the Borg and not saving any records for future reference.

    who says there were no records? Is not the time between Qwho and when annita went into the DQ less than 18 years? How do we not know that there were some files? Perhaps Starfleet buried the engagement with the borg on Enterprise and when the service merged, the files got lost? There were some reports of the Borg before Q who, but the Federation didn't know what they were.

  • lizweilizwei Member Posts: 936 Arc User
    lizwei wrote: »
    1. It is established that the Borg were already on their way to Earth. They were doing raids, harvesting and studying the Federation and Romulans. No one had survived an engagement with them until Picard and Picard only survived because of Q.
    2. Enterprise establishes what drew the Borg to Earth and why they came. They got a part of a transmission so they were curious and came raiding.

    Enterprise is Riker's holodeck program, nothing seen within can be taken as 100% accurate.
    Especially not Starfleet encountering the Borg and not saving any records for future reference.

    who says there were no records? Is not the time between Qwho and when annita went into the DQ less than 18 years? How do we not know that there were some files? Perhaps Starfleet buried the engagement with the borg on Enterprise and when the service merged, the files got lost? There were some reports of the Borg before Q who, but the Federation didn't know what they were.

    And you don't think Shelby's task force would've actively searched for and gotten any records on weird cyborgs and such so they wouldn't have been caught with their pants down over Picard's assimilation?
  • kodachikunokodachikuno Member Posts: 6,020 Arc User1
    considering the definition of canon material changed almost every week in TNG, why are we even trying to argue the nuances? Star Trek has a horrible reputation for maintaining any level of consistency with its own lore
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  • protogothprotogoth Member Posts: 2,369 Arc User
    I have been looking over various threads and their seems to be a great contempt for using the Krenim weaponship. This spurred the idea of what fun devices, tools, races with advanced powers, and Dues ex machinas have we not used yet in the war with the Iconians?

    Deus ex machina ... the plural is Dei ex machina (or, depending on how many "machines" there are in mind, Dei ex machinis) ... is not something we can use; it's only a tool for the writer(s), not the player(s). Anyway, I'm going to go down your list and make comments.

    TOS:
    Trelane -- Some claim he was a young member of the Q Continuum, which seems dubious, as he obviously relied upon machinery to accomplish his feats, and we've never seen a Q do likewise; at any rate, the suggestion that he was a Q is not from hard canon. If he were a young Q, then he must be considered in connection with the Q and not separately. If he were not a young Q (and I believe he wasn't), then his power is, based on what we witnessed in "The Squire of Gothos," considerably more limited than would be necessary for dealing with the Iconians.

    Melkotians -- The Melkotians' power is psionic. I have doubts that their psionic ability is sufficient to deal with the Iconians, who seem to have some psionic abilities of their own.

    Excalibans -- Have they even developed an understanding of ethics yet? In "The Savage Curtain," they seemed entirely amoral.

    Organians -- Do not generally meddle in outside affairs and probably don't consider the Iconians a threat (and the Iconians probably are not a threat to them, since they are an advanced species).

    Guardian of Forever -- Likely classified "Above Top Secret" if not even more classified than that, very few personnel of any of the three factions would know about this (our Federation characters are included, having done the mission), but as has been pointed out, this is still mucking about with time, and as demonstrated in the TOS episode "City on the Edge of Forever," it's rather easy to TRIBBLE the entire timeline up with this.

    The Original Doomsday Machine (In the novels, Seven got it working again, planet killers are fun) -- And it was destroyed again by our (Federation) characters. It's also, like, uncontrollable, so it might not be particularly well-suited to being used as a weapon against a specific foe, and even if we somehow managed to get it to slice and dice the Iconian/Herald Sphere, we'd have to destroy the blasted thing again afterwards.

    Slingshot Effect -- More mucking about with time. Make no mistake, we're going to muck about with time somehow, as was made obvious when Sela let slip information which she apparently thought was of no strategic importance.

    Spock's Brain -- I don't even know what to say to this.

    Anti-Matter Bombs (Obsession) -- How exactly would this be used to deal with the Iconians?

    Genesis Device -- Yeah, this one has been suggested already, and I thought the person who suggested it was on to something interesting, but would the Federation want this technology in anyone's hands but their own?

    TOS/TNG:
    The Nexus -- Coming soon, regardless. It may already be on the table at Cryptic for a means of tackling the Iconians; it's certainly something we should deal with in 2410, as that's when it's supposed to return to our area of the universe.

    TNG:
    Q -- As has been pointed out, the Q generally have little interest in us, with one (or two, counting STO's "Q Junior") exception(s), and don't typically pull our bacon out of the fire unless they dropped us in the fire to begin with.

    Kevin Uxbridge -- That guy is probably still Angst-ridden and not too keen on doing anything that might require him to kill again.

    Trilithium Torpedoes -- Could probably be used in the same manner as the Genesis Device.

    DS9:
    The Prophets -- We've already talked to the Prophets about the Iconians; they're the ones who first told us about "The Other." Remember? They don't seem particularly interested in getting involved, either.

    Voyager:
    "Threshold" (Space slugs could always be a super secret weapon right?) -- Ugh.

    ENT:
    Temporal Cold War Factions -- You mean like, oh, I don't know, could it be, maybe ... the Krenim?


  • lizweilizwei Member Posts: 936 Arc User
    On the Organians, in Starfleet Command 2 they dragged the I.S.C. into a war in order to eventually unite everyone against an invasion from Andromeda.
    It's a shame Cryptic can't do the same here. It still sort of works. Andromedas, Iconians... I bet people would be all over an I.S.C. lockbox..
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