test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Why did devs add an OP Tachyon Beam to borg STFs

I have to say this really annoys me. It's as if the devs just said we don't know how to balance STFs because their is such a wide gap between the different ships, so lets just add an OP Tachyon Beam which can drain all their shields to zero instead to increase the difficulty. If you have a speed or hull tanking ship then likely this isn't a huge problem, but if you are flying a Sci ship which has the least hull out of all the ships it's a problem as you are probably shield tanking because of the higher shield modifier.

Is there a good reason why an all powerful TB was added?
«1

Comments

  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    Because players themselves wanted stronger TB's, it is also what has effected the Borg!
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • seriousxenoseriousxeno Member Posts: 473 Arc User
    Because players themselves wanted stronger TB's, it is also what has effected the Borg!

    Pretty much this. Tachyon Beam was always ludicrously weak for players. Now its actually useful. As for the Borg... well there's a reason shield heals exist. I just made it a habit to hit brace for impact once my shields were drained in that case, which can buy you the time you need to get them back up without dying from torpedoes. Power insulator also became a lot more important as part of the skill tree.
    latest?cb=20090525051807&path-prefix=en
    "Let them eat static!"
  • rosetyler51rosetyler51 Member Posts: 1,631 Arc User
    Short version. To buff the command battlecruisers.

    Longer story. One of the consoles/traits on the command battlecruisers works with Tachyon Beam. Old Tachyon Beam was next to pointless at endgame so it made the command battlecruisers look bad. Cryptic went "My money" and buff the power, helping out players and also the borg. I have no idea why the NPC version of the power has not been nerfed yet.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    It wasn't so much added as ignored. They buffed it for players because it was useless at the time however NPCs already had a more powerful one which was roughly balanced against player shield resists with EPtS. The side effect of them buffing tachyon beam for players was that it buffed the NPC version, the devs simply neglected to bring the NPC version back in line so its now all powerful.

    As for hull tanking in science ships being an issue... I think that depends both on what ship you pick and on your skill build, as a general rule I keep six points in both resist skills and then add one or two fleet neutroniums for about 40% all resist. I then run TSS on global cooldown to maintain shields as best possible only having 15 seconds downtime per cycle.
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    The Command Cruiser Tachyon Beam special ability was probably the reason they did it - but if you want this game to be about more than how much DPS you can bring with your build, then adding powerful offensive abilities to NPCs is also part of what would need to be done. Now you might be required to actually sacrifice some offense for defensive abilities - shield heals, hull heals, resistance buffs. Or you need an ally that can provide this for you (who would need to make those sacrifices.)

    Or you just blow up. That's also an option.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    Why worry about Borg Tachyon Beams / Shield Nullifiers when the Borg hardly do anything to you to begin with?
    XzRTofz.gif
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    Actually it was an unintended side-effect. Bort said they'd look into it. They never did. Business as usual.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    "The NPCs are doing something to me! This can't be allowed to continue!"
    XzRTofz.gif
  • This content has been removed.
  • kyrrokkyrrok Member Posts: 1,352 Arc User
    Tachyon beams are strong, and I don't like getting my shields drained away, but I do like draining theirs, so I say keep it. If all I can do is batten down the hatches, hit brace for impact, polarize hull, and put up a good fight to the death, shooting one last overloaded beam and torpedo volley on my way out, then today is always a good day to die
  • majortiraomegamajortiraomega Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    genemorph wrote: »
    I have to say this really annoys me. It's as if the devs just said we don't know how to balance STFs because their is such a wide gap between the different ships, so lets just add an OP Tachyon Beam which can drain all their shields to zero instead to increase the difficulty. If you have a speed or hull tanking ship then likely this isn't a huge problem, but if you are flying a Sci ship which has the least hull out of all the ships it's a problem as you are probably shield tanking because of the higher shield modifier.

    Is there a good reason why an all powerful TB was added?

    Borg Tachyon Beam is NOT overpowered. If you're flying a Science Vessel and you can't keep your shields up, then the problem is with your build and not with the ability. First up, a Tier V/VI Science Vessel should have at least 20,000 shields/facing and a Fleet Tier V/VI ship should have at least 22,000 shields/facing. If this is not the case, then you need to upgrade your shields to Mk XIV, increase your Starship Shields Systems skill, and/or add 1-2 consoles that increases maximum shield capacity. The new research lab has both flow capacitor and particle generator consoles that increase shield capacity and the existing engineering and science crafting consoles both increase maximum shield capacity. If you can't get either of those, then there's also the Dyson reputation science consoles that increase maximum shield hit points. There's no reason you can't grab a [ShHP] modded console or two to close that gap.

    Next up, slot the Superior Shield Repair reputation trait, make sure your auxiliary is reaching 125 and your shields 95+. Not enough power left over for an all energy weapons build you say? Fine, throw on energy siphon and plasmonic leech with an Emergency Power to Weapons + Emergency Power to Shields cycle. You'll be max power in all subsystems doing it that way. Not interested in power drain an want to do pure damage? Fine, throw on Gravity Well, Tykens Rift, and Resonance Beam while using all torpedo weapons and Torpedo Spread.

    In the end; all one really needs is a good Mk XIV shield, a good group of science consoles, and a single reputation trait. The rest is cleaned up by Science Team, Transfer Shield Strength, and an EPtX chain. If one is truly worried, then they can even throw Reverse Shield Polarity to boot. Also, players can make their Tachyon Beam even worse than the Borg version and with double the uptime. Photonic Shockwave and all disables will prematurely cancel the Borg Tachyon Beam as well...if anyone ever bothered to use the counters. You are in a science vessel after all; there's no reason one can't use that ability.​​
    --->Ground PvP Concerns Directory 4.0
    --->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
    Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    deokkent wrote: »
    Because players themselves wanted stronger TB's, it is also what has effected the Borg!

    Holy TRIBBLE shadowwraith, with the new improved forum look, your avatar just became a lot more badass. 3D illusions ftw.

    Considering it is a cut, it would be even nicer if we could fit the entire picture!
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • welcome2earfwelcome2earf Member Posts: 1,748 Arc User
    It sucks, but I'm used to it. I'm more irrked that it's another bug that gets blown off simply due to apathy. My *personal* issue is that this makes Spheres more of a threat than cubes.
    T93uSC8.jpg
  • farmallmfarmallm Member Posts: 4,630 Arc User
    I like it. It makes you think and enjoy the challenge. For once I had to get a skill learned and apply it. So this added to my other skills for my BOFF list.

    To be fair, I give it back to them. They tachyon me! I let them have mine too! >:)
    Enterprise%20C_zpsrdrf3v8d.jpg

    USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
    Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    adamkafei wrote: »
    It wasn't so much added as ignored. They buffed it for players because it was useless at the time however NPCs already had a more powerful one which was roughly balanced against player shield resists with EPtS. The side effect of them buffing tachyon beam for players was that it buffed the NPC version, the devs simply neglected to bring the NPC version back in line so its now all powerful.

    Funny how they couldn't extend the same courtesy to our pets, isn't it?! Oh noes, they were reportedly scaled up too high, and just *had* to be nerfed!
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • genemorphgenemorph Member Posts: 404 Arc User
    Guys I'm shield tanking
    genemorph wrote: »
    I have to say this really annoys me. It's as if the devs just said we don't know how to balance STFs because their is such a wide gap between the different ships, so lets just add an OP Tachyon Beam which can drain all their shields to zero instead to increase the difficulty. If you have a speed or hull tanking ship then likely this isn't a huge problem, but if you are flying a Sci ship which has the least hull out of all the ships it's a problem as you are probably shield tanking because of the higher shield modifier.

    Is there a good reason why an all powerful TB was added?

    Borg Tachyon Beam is NOT overpowered. If you're flying a Science Vessel and you can't keep your shields up, then the problem is with your build and not with the ability. First up, a Tier V/VI Science Vessel should have at least 20,000 shields/facing and a Fleet Tier V/VI ship should have at least 22,000 shields/facing. If this is not the case, then you need to upgrade your shields to Mk XIV, increase your Starship Shields Systems skill, and/or add 1-2 consoles that increases maximum shield capacity. The new research lab has both flow capacitor and particle generator consoles that increase shield capacity and the existing engineering and science crafting consoles both increase maximum shield capacity. If you can't get either of those, then there's also the Dyson reputation science consoles that increase maximum shield hit points. There's no reason you can't grab a [ShHP] modded console or two to close that gap.

    Next up, slot the Superior Shield Repair reputation trait, make sure your auxiliary is reaching 125 and your shields 95+. Not enough power left over for an all energy weapons build you say? Fine, throw on energy siphon and plasmonic leech with an Emergency Power to Weapons + Emergency Power to Shields cycle. You'll be max power in all subsystems doing it that way. Not interested in power drain an want to do pure damage? Fine, throw on Gravity Well, Tykens Rift, and Resonance Beam while using all torpedo weapons and Torpedo Spread.

    In the end; all one really needs is a good Mk XIV shield, a good group of science consoles, and a single reputation trait. The rest is cleaned up by Science Team, Transfer Shield Strength, and an EPtX chain. If one is truly worried, then they can even throw Reverse Shield Polarity to boot. Also, players can make their Tachyon Beam even worse than the Borg version and with double the uptime. Photonic Shockwave and all disables will prematurely cancel the Borg Tachyon Beam as well...if anyone ever bothered to use the counters. You are in a science vessel after all; there's no reason one can't use that ability.​​

    You've made a lot of assumptions here, none of which are true in my case. If you are shield tanking of course you concentrate on shield heals skills, and shield emitters etc. I using energy siphon and plasmonic leech (is there anyone who isn't). I've been playing sci for 3 years so I know what I'm doing. The point is I have to use all my shield heals when I get hit by borg TB, and it sucks those up too. People have already said this is an unintended effect, so I would rather the Devs fixed it rather have to change my whole build and skill allocation for an unintended effect.
  • supergirl1611supergirl1611 Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    There is no direct way to counter the shield drain, regardless of skill points in shield power/Power insulators ect or Shield hitpoint boosting consoles or power insulator consoles (More than 2 tends to leave the 3rd with very low returns for the equip). Borg tachyon beam when hit will drain shields within secs esp if hit by more than 1 NPC. Best defence is to have decent kinetic resistance as they have a tendency to shoot torps more than beams.

    In Summary after testing a Common white Shield mk xii with 20% plasma resist vs a Ultra Rare mk xiv Elite fleet shield res B there was no difference in performance between the 2 when fighting the Borg Shield neutralizer both died within secs.

    Borg Neutraliser and Tachyon beam is overpowered, Go into Crystaline Entity Advanced and be hit by a couple of Tholians and boom shields on that facing drained, however as Cryptic can't be arsed to bring it back to pre-buff specs, its a case of stacking kinetic resist's when dealing with the Borg to combat torpedo hits

    Tholians/Hirogen/Voth and Borg will totally TRIBBLE shields.

  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    There are multiple ways to compensate. I use the one with "increasing damage resistence (temporarily)" and "Supreme firepower" as main incrediens. Works nice.

    Cryptic is fast to implement things, too lazy to test them, and very slow to fix them. Its a good thing they only programm games and not actually important things like ABS-Systems and such.​​
  • sqwishedsqwished Member Posts: 1,475 Bug Hunter
    woodwhity wrote: »
    Cryptic is fast to implement things, too lazy to test them, and very slow to fix them. Its a good thing they only programm games and not actually important things like ABS-Systems and such.​​

    Well said, and quite true I'm afraid. For anyone that doubts this, there have been multiple examples of this "release it, then nerf it" mantra that Cryptic seems so found of. I only wish I could say it's a recent development, but alas it's been like that since I've been playing. Although in recent times I've come to be more aware of it. But I guess a fair few of the players have as well now. What's even sadder is that people actually come to expect it now.
    Oh, it's not broken? We can soon fix that!

  • denniskr87denniskr87 Member Posts: 58 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    This is not even a problem... I just wait TB to finish her job,and then restore shields... Also plasma,and kinetic resistance helps, if you face 2 or more borgs...
    Post edited by denniskr87 on
  • supergirl1611supergirl1611 Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    Its overpowered when a cube/sphere in a normal stf i.e cure can drain shields of 16k with 1 zap. Until i feel equipping shields are worth something i won't be using the upgrade system to increase the rarity or mark quality of any of my shields past mk xii its just not worth the expense
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,602 Arc User
    The thing is Borg Tac Beam and Torps are the most powerful thing the borg have left. I see cubes being vaped in 6 seconds a la 'Scorpion'. Being a Sci, I take a little longer, but I never worry about Tac Beam with my heals sufficient to counter them. What Cryptic REALLY REALLY needs to do is give the Borg their ability to adapt back in space, and preferably be able to do so before the vape!
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • jrichard1979jrichard1979 Member Posts: 73 Arc User
    I always have 1 or 2 ranks of Hazard Emitters handy. 2 if I plan on org fighting for awhile. Stops shield drain.
  • gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    sqwished wrote: »
    woodwhity wrote: »
    Cryptic is fast to implement things, too lazy to test them, and very slow to fix them. Its a good thing they only programm games and not actually important things like ABS-Systems and such.​​

    Well said, and quite true I'm afraid. For anyone that doubts this, there have been multiple examples of this "release it, then nerf it" mantra that Cryptic seems so found of. I only wish I could say it's a recent development, but alas it's been like that since I've been playing. Although in recent times I've come to be more aware of it. But I guess a fair few of the players have as well now. What's even sadder is that people actually come to expect it now.

    And this right here is why I will not spend on the game any more, and have not for coming up on a year. Especially after seeing my Vesta pets nerfed with a "Who cares?" attitude from those in charge, I will not risk another ship purchase knowing that could and likely will happen again. Now, I fly my Vesta not just because I like it, but to make sure I show T5-U's across the board on my toons and that I won't succumb to pressure tactics to get a T6 or join the high DPS race.

    Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
    Proudly F2P.  Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,921 Arc User
    It sucks, but I'm used to it. I'm more irrked that it's another bug that gets blown off simply due to apathy. My *personal* issue is that this makes Spheres more of a threat than cubes.

    Except it's not a bug...
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 59,174 Community Moderator
    I always have 1 or 2 ranks of Hazard Emitters handy. 2 if I plan on org fighting for awhile. Stops shield drain.

    That only works on the Shield Neutralizer. No effect on Tachyon Beam.
    Its overpowered when a cube/sphere in a normal stf i.e cure can drain shields of 16k with 1 zap. Until i feel equipping shields are worth something i won't be using the upgrade system to increase the rarity or mark quality of any of my shields past mk xii its just not worth the expense

    Its frustrating when they chain their Tachyon Beams too. Couple hit you, shields drain. Then you think you're clear and start restoring... ANOTHER Tachyon Beam or 3 from a group. See this all the time in Infected. And Power Insulators mean squat to Borg Tachyon Beam. Beam hits. Shields go pfft.

    And I agree. No point in upgrading shields for that.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
    normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
    colored text = mod mode
  • captaintroikacaptaintroika Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    Just blow up the spheres first, they're the ones that sodomize your shields anyways.
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    denniskr87 wrote: »
    This is not even a problem... I just wait to TB finish her job,and then restore shealds... Also plasma,and kinetic resistance helps, if you face 2 or more borgs...

    This. I do the same and I generally don't have a problem with the Borg's shield drains. The trick is to wait for them to finish completely before you start restoring your shields or else they'll just drain away whatever heals you made.

    While waiting for them to complete, you can also use your Scattering Field and Subspace Field Modulator combined with Brace for Impact or Polarize Hull to allow yourself to tank through their fire. After that, you can use Science Fleet and/or Biomolecular Shield Generator to accelerate your shield healing or slow down further drains.

    All of the above should give any Science captain or ship ample time to either get out of trouble or take out the offending Borg. There is no need to nerf their shield drains. IMO it's not OP at all.
  • breadandcircusesbreadandcircuses Member Posts: 2,355 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    It's not really a bug so much as an unintended consequence.

    Two things combined to create the current "NPC version" of Tachyon Beam: Delta Rising's "difficulty" increase consisting of increased shield/hull points and the buff to Tachyon Beam itself to make it relevant. The "difficulty" increase means that for players to use and see viable results of Tachyon Beam against NPC's, much less other players with their counters and actual skill, Tachyon Beam needs to be more powerful than it was before. That means the Tachyon Beam buff had to happen, and since NPC's pretty much have the same abilities we do theirs got buffed too. Players, however, have far less in the way of shield points than NPC's, so what is a viable ability used by players on NPC's becomes extremely powerful when heading in the other direction.

    Basically, the "napkin math" version:
    • If Tachyon Beam can drain 250 shields, a player's skills double that to 500 (assuming said player bothered to invest in Flow Capacitors), and a NPC has 1000 shield points... it looks and feels like an effective power even if it's incapable of actually blowing up that NPC by itself.
    • If Tachyon Beam can drain 250 shields, a player's resists halve that to 125 (assuming said player bothered to invest in Power Insulators), and a player has 100 shield points... it looks and feels like it's overpowered even if it is actually draining less shield points.
    • So the same ability, more powerful when used by players than any NPC, resisted more heavily by players than any NPC, still feels overpowered because it was made to be effective against the inflated shield points of post-DR adversaries.
    Ym9x9Ji.png
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    I do not like Geko ether.
    iconians wrote: »
    With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.​​
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    1) You could drop your plasma explosion consoles for shields ones.
    2) Plenty of space traits to help you keep your shields up.
    3) Plenty of consoles and skills to help you survive (Power insulators come to mind)

    If you think the spheres are bad, you should see my Tachyon Beam.
Sign In or Register to comment.