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Could the Viriosaurus Rex be given a second look?

Now that Mk XIV weaponry is becoming fairly common place, it's not at all uncommon for V. Rex's to be felled before most players in a region can reach the omega silo, especially if people are waiting at the spawn point ahead of time.
It's not uncommon for me to reach the V.Rex, but be too late to earn anything other than the "token participation award" because it doesn't have enough HP left for me to be recognized as contributing. And that's if I can reach it in time at all.

I've seen the last thread on this topic from back in December, lets please avoid comments of the "stop whining/l2p" variety.

Comments

  • tolmariustolmarius Member Posts: 400 Arc User
    I agree. Normally i catch at least two. The last times I was there, I didn't make it to a single silo in time. THe V-Rex needs a buff bad.
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  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    It's not just the Mk XIV tech boost, it's all the nifty things we've gotten since then that has changed the way the Voth Battlezone works.

    More buffs to increase run speed. The Delta Rep power which knocks shields completely offline (including the V-Rex) for a short period of time. The TR-116B rifle which completely ignores shields -- along with things like the new Armor Piercing mechanics and a healthy assortment of new doffs, kit modules, and ground sets that can be far more devastating against the Voth than the Dyson Ground set.

    On top of that, we have new ground traits that increase our damage potential far more than when The Sphere was released. In addition to ground traits, we have the Intelligence and Command specialization trees (and Commando) which also allows us a much wider arsenal to decrease damage resistance, increase the performance of game mechanics like flanking damage, and give us even more tools to assist us in ground combat.

    The Dyson Battlezone continues to be an excellent place (and it is still one of my favorite places in STO), but the game has raised the bar (or introduced power creep), while the zone itself has not evolved outside occasional patches to deter afkers.

    The last two times I was there, I also didn't get a single V-Rex kill in. It has absolutely nothing to do with a lack of skill, but a Dyson Battlezone which was not built to be 'future-proof'.

    The Dyson Battlezone was not built with the foresight of Delta Rising and beyond in mind. Unless the zone itself gets an overhaul (including the V-Rex), we will simply see this situation deteriorate even further as more technology, game mechanics, and new shinies cause the V-Rex to be soloed in only a few seconds by a single person.

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    But maybe nature just selected the V-Rex for extinction.
    Post edited by iconians on
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  • protogothprotogoth Member Posts: 2,369 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    Excerpts from a Skype conversation between rexyf and myself which occurred yesterday evening (posted with his consent, and with identification information removed; explanations added in green italics):

    Me: My concern here is that, while the V. Rex may go down with great ease for a full group of level 55+ with upgraded elite gear, the zone is intended for level 50+, not just everyone who already is at the level cap and has a well-developed character with elite gear.
    I can remember going in there with Ji'ana (my primary main) when the zone was new, and she was already level 50, but she died repeatedly even with a full group and decent gear.
    Last night she didn't die (with only three or four players in the battle, counting myself and my teammate; I want to say four, but I was more focused on the battle itself than on counting how many other players were involved -- our instance, at least, only had four players besides us when we went in, and they may not all have been close enough to get to the V. Rex battle before it was over, but she is now level 60, has Mk XIV Very Rare KHG, Mk XIV Ultra Rare Chroniton Rifle, almost all of the Intel specialization (one more point and she has it maxed), ground traits, rep traits, etc, etc. (The "etc, etc" refers at least to the two BOffs I had with me, both of which were purple Intel BOffs, and the gear with which they were equipped, which, if not the most elite possible, was nevertheless pretty nice; this battle to which I refer from two nights ago lasted several minutes, and at least one of the other players involved was level 60 with at least decent gear and BOffs).
    I'm not sure there's a solution that wouldn't make it impossible for level 50s just starting out.
    And there are times when you can go in there and basically be the only person there.

    Him: My concern is that the level 55+ players are already here, and a factor that has to be accounted for. You shouldn't have to camp to have a shot at fighting a V.Rex. It should last at least long enough for you to reach it from the other side of the area and last long enough for you to reach the dps contribution.

    Me: I understand this, and I agree, but like I said, I'm not sure there's a way to fix that without making it unplayable for a new player who has just made level 50 and doesn't have all the leet stuffz and such.
    Even Jenova (one of my DeltAlts) wouldn't be a fair test, because she made level 55 yesterday and has the benefit of a benefactor (my main), who kicks down some lewtz to her betimes.
    Even making the zone re-level everyone to 50 doesn't solve things, because they still have their Ultra Rare and Epic gear, their traits, their specializations, etc.
    And locking it to everyone 55+ would penalize players for doing well (as would prohibiting the use of better than average gear and so on). People still need Dyson Marks after 55. Some DeltAlts didn't/won't even start Dyson rep till they're 60.
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    Locking players out from the Voth Battlezone seems like it would do more harm than good.

    I think immunity or stage mechanics would make the zone easier to progress in. If the V-Rex had a 3-stage part to it, with damage immunity for a flat period of time between each stage (like the Crystalline Entity), you would have the Park, City, and Outskirts given plenty of time for players from the farthest reaches able to reach the V-Rex in time to get credit for the kill in any of the 3 stages. Since the damage immunity time period would be the same across the board, it would not matter if you were a "fresh" level 50 without all the bells and whistles.

    By artificially stopgapping the amount of time it takes for the V-Rex to die, it would not matter how overpowered you were. If Cryptic wanted to take it one step further, they could make the damage immunity phase longer depending on how quickly it took to get to that stage to avoid trying to get through the damage immunity phases as quickly as possible.

    Along with making the V-Rex more formidable with its attacks, and making the V-Rex fight more of a boss bottle than a mafia shakedown.

    To determine the damage immunity period, you could simply go to the farthest, most difficult portion of the district with an unbuffed character and time how long it takes for them to get to the V-Rex.

    Make the damage immunity period around that same time so even the slowest people could arrive in time to dish out some pain and get credit.
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  • protogothprotogoth Member Posts: 2,369 Arc User
    I like the temporary immunity suggestion. Beefing up the attacks would only result in more cries for even more power creep, and again, would be detrimental to the new level 50 with only average gear.
  • rexyfrexyf Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    I actually timed a V.Rex fight yesterday, and it took players in the city only 35 seconds to kill their V.Rex.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjGe-cGe7rw
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    I'd only recommend beefing up its attacks for the damage immunity stages. Essentially forcing the players who were on the offensive to shift into a defensive mode, which coincidentally would also make science heals and engineering defenses far more desirable than just DPS. With the players forced on the defensive (stopping only to kill the medics stealing the omega particles), it allows the 'reinforcements' from the farthest distances in the district to show up "right on time" when the damage immunity phase ends.
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  • jerichoredoranjerichoredoran Member Posts: 195 Arc User
    Had a bit part in the pre discussion of that too. The fundamental challenge here is the same as in space combat. Some people deal >10 times the damage as others (even comparing only level 60 players) which makes it hard to balance things around that.

    Actually I think that phasing (immunity) model is a very good suggestion.
    skollulfr wrote: »
    enough power creep to break content in 1 year.
    "balance" lol
    The content was effectively outdated with the extension to level 60. If you compare that to other games... WoW raids of the last expension were often soloed shortly after if even played at all.
  • Gurneyhallek0420Gurneyhallek0420 Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    Lost rewards 5 times tonight, either I couldn't make it to the silo before the Rex went down or twice I was first one there and the people that came behind me and burned it down and I didn't get any credit. The abuse of the zone has always been bad from it's inception, from trolls to bots to afkers. Now the mobs get zerged so bad that you get screwed another way. At any rate rewards for the zone should be based on your participation in capturing points, Rexes should just be killed to reset the zone. AFK and camping should be recognized and the pc should get ejected from the zone after a certain time. People placeholding so legit players can't come in and help is bs, aside from the leeching aspect.
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  • cyraxredcyraxred Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    With all season 10.5 with new gear and upgrade system, there has been "some" changes to game play, but Dyson ground has been been left out except for the Players themselves.
    Now it has become "too Easy" for some (XIV epic Gear) and pain for some others, such as the new Delta toon players who don't have the snow boots for the runs and/or players who have XII Common/Rare/VR gear.
    The addition of a immunity stage in the final still has a flaw, with CCA, i seen the Crystal lose health during the stage, even CCA finished very quickly, ......but say if a temp force field immunity dome for Mr Rex with a Feedback pulse...so the harder you hit it, a nice smack back to you.....something to easy that itchy trigger finger...
    Just a thought.
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    Also not a bad idea. I'm sure the devs could think of some creative way to introduce a damage immunity phase halfway through so players could make it there in time. It's just important that the players already there (or just arriving) have something to do, even if it means protecting themselves from massive damage while killing the medics. Maybe voth soldier yard trash transports in over and over again depending on how many people are there. Maybe there could be a number of waves you'd have to defeat during the immunity phase (and maybe tie an accolade to it).

    Whatever shape it takes, it's important that the VBZ is made future-proof. So even if we have Mk XXVI weapons and twelve new specialization trees, a million new traits and kit modules in Season 50, the V-Rex experience would be just the same for them as it is for new level 50's.

    There are any number of paths Cryptic can take to get the same result of putting in an artificial stopgap without nerfing the players themselves or locking out the zone for high-level players.

    Given the Voth 'theme' of overwhelming defenses, it's extremely easy to see the V-Rex given super duper mega awesome metaphasic shields that are even more advanced than those seen on the voth exosuits.

    It really should seem more like trying to defeat an unbreakable enemy instead of beating a kid up for his lunch money.

    First stage could be like the fight we currently have. Second stage it goes into a turtling defense and becomes surrounded by 360 degrees of metaphasic shields that make it immune to everything (except maybe the Subspace Party Amplifier because it would be cool to see it dance), maybe artillery rains down from above, maybe there's voth yard trash to keep you busy. Who knows? Third stage the V-Rex's super awesome metaphasic shields burn out and given the gathered players at that point, it goes all out with even more hitpoints and damage resistance than before (to make up for the increased number of players in its immediate vicinity) as a final last stand. Once it's dead, everybody gets their reward.

    No more one-sided fight.
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  • architect13architect13 Member Posts: 1,076 Arc User
    Yes, like the OP said, let's just remove the Rex, dinosaurs do not belong in Star Trek!
    Have you tried the new forum on your phone?
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    They should do whatever Champions online does for its multi level content like zone bosses. These particular bosses/mobs themselves technically have no level unlike most of the rest of the content where everything is fixed level.

    A level 10 and 40 can fight the same boss, but the 10 won't be getting one shotted while the 40 still has to worry about the boss damage output as well, and the flip side is also true, the 40 isn't going to destroy the boss before the 10 can contribute.

    It works very well over there and doesn't end up penalizing someone for having a good build/equipment while still letting low levels that would be otherwise murdered fast by the boss contribute and enjoy it.
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  • rexyfrexyf Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    Yes, like the OP said, let's just remove the Rex, dinosaurs do not belong in Star Trek!

    ...I never said that. Nor do I want that. I have no quarrel with Dinosaurs being present in a franchise with...
    space Mobsters (TOS)
    space Romans (TOS)
    space Cowboys (ENT)
    space Amoebas (TOS)
    space Elves in two varieties (TOS)
    space Techno-Zombies (TNG)

    But this line of talk moves the thread off-topic.
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    Good thing they aren't dinosaurs, and are actually Voth-engineered creations that resemble a 1990's-era depiction of what human society commonly thought dinosaurs to look like as a result of a film franchise that was laced heavily with scientific inaccuracies.
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  • rexyfrexyf Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    iconians wrote: »
    Good thing they aren't dinosaurs, and are actually Voth-engineered creations that resemble a 1990's-era depiction of what human society commonly thought dinosaurs to look like as a result of a film franchise that was laced heavily with scientific inaccuracies.

    That's really the only issue I've ever had with the Voth's beasts of burden (beyond the fact they now die too easily). They could have made them visually more up-to-date with our understanding of paleontology when they were introduced, circa 2013. Feathers, non-pronated-wrists, etc.
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    rexyf wrote: »
    iconians wrote: »
    Good thing they aren't dinosaurs, and are actually Voth-engineered creations that resemble a 1990's-era depiction of what human society commonly thought dinosaurs to look like as a result of a film franchise that was laced heavily with scientific inaccuracies.

    That's really the only issue I've ever had with the Voth's beasts of burden (beyond the fact they now die too easily). They could have made them visually more up-to-date with our understanding of paleontology when they were introduced, circa 2013. Feathers, non-pronated-wrists, etc.

    But they didn't. It was clear this was a nostalgia thing, not an attempt to actually bring the current understanding and science of dinosaurs to STO.

    Which is why I laugh whenever someone says they're dinosaurs. They aren't. Dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago. What we have in the VBZ are test-tube creatures that have a passing resemblance to an outdated and scientifically inaccurate depiction of dinosaurs.
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  • protogothprotogoth Member Posts: 2,369 Arc User
    rexyf wrote: »
    iconians wrote: »
    Good thing they aren't dinosaurs, and are actually Voth-engineered creations that resemble a 1990's-era depiction of what human society commonly thought dinosaurs to look like as a result of a film franchise that was laced heavily with scientific inaccuracies.

    That's really the only issue I've ever had with the Voth's beasts of burden (beyond the fact they now die too easily). They could have made them visually more up-to-date with our understanding of paleontology when they were introduced, circa 2013. Feathers, non-pronated-wrists, etc.

    And now everyone knows why I call you "Ross Geller." :P

    Ross: "No, there is no way he was a velociraptor. No Tony, look at the cranial ridge, OK. If Dino was a velociraptor, he would have eaten the Flintstones."
    -- Source
  • rexyfrexyf Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    protogoth wrote: »

    And now everyone knows why I call you "Ross Geller." :P

    Ross: "No, there is no way he was a velociraptor. No Tony, look at the cranial ridge, OK. If Dino was a velociraptor, he would have eaten the Flintstones."
    -- Source
    Unlike Ross, I don't look like a Monchichi. :P
  • architect13architect13 Member Posts: 1,076 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    rexyf wrote: »
    Yes, like the OP said, let's just remove the Rex, dinosaurs do not belong in Star Trek!

    ...I never said that.

    I know that just what I wanted to read :)
    Have you tried the new forum on your phone?
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    skollulfr wrote: »
    They should do whatever Champions online does for its multi level content like zone bosses. These particular bosses/mobs themselves technically have no level unlike most of the rest of the content where everything is fixed level.

    A level 10 and 40 can fight the same boss, but the 10 won't be getting one shotted while the 40 still has to worry about the boss damage output as well, and the flip side is also true, the 40 isn't going to destroy the boss before the 10 can contribute.

    It works very well over there and doesn't end up penalizing someone for having a good build/equipment while still letting low levels that would be otherwise murdered fast by the boss contribute and enjoy it.

    i almost chuckled at how insidious that is.
    all that whine about getting meaningful leveling and the damage its implementation has done to the game with the added grind, only for the bosses to completely negate all that grind, while at the same time leaving the queues for both pvp and pve broken.

    hell, its an option that would force cryptic into self mockery since if they did manage this, they would be forced to exclude all space content from such solution since it could put a constitution on teh same level as whatever the latest brokenly op ship is.


    While I'm not sure exactly how it works, I do know it doesn't equalize everyone, it just scales things somehow. Endgame gear still gives the 40s a real edge, as do their extra powers and specializations and the like, but they can't destroy the boss so fast the littler and slower heros get left out, while at the other extreme they are supposedly also designed so that if all there was fighting the boss were level 10s, they could down the boss themselves before time ran out.

    It really doesn't even need to work for space combat, and probably would never be implemented there either, although Borg RAs would have made a great spot for it rather than cutting the low levels out of it. I can't remember ever seeing the planet killers die so fast no one could get credit.
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