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What do you think "Faction Identity" means to you?

I got the idea to make this based off this thread.

So my answer. It is not one thing. It is a lot smaller things. Clothes, the characters that they meet, their places and place in the world, the gear that they use, and more.

So what about everyone else. What makes up a faction's identity to you.

Comments

  • dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    A faction's "identity" is 99% "looks" and "lore". That's it.

    Look no further than, say, Everquest. Other than the differential between Paladin / Death Knight, all their major factions (good, neutral, evil) share the exact same classes.

    Yeah, there's "lore" stuff like the evil races have better stats to encourage going "shaman" over "cleric", for example, but all the classes are there and function the same way for everyone. That happens in a lot of the various games - same classes for everyone irregardless of "faction" or "alignment" - separated strictly by looks and "borderline min-max stuff" for gameplay things (like an evil cleric's only going to heal to 98% instead of 100% with their higher end not-guaranteed full heals)...

    Should be the same here in STO - like the whole KDF Raptors / Federation Escorts thing. Both are "high damage theoretical glass cannon" type ships, fill the same role, usually have close to the same stats - but have the different names because of "lore" (Federation types don't fly Raptors and KDFs usually don't escort but are willing to use their raider ships as escorts).​​
    Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...

    To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    Faction Identity in STO? That once existed, especially in the first years of the game. Anyways, I equate faction identity as basically this:

    Looks/Appearances, gameplay differences, unique storyline with their own POV.

    When STO launched and its earlier years, there were VERY sharp differences between the Feds and KDF. The heart of the game was the same but KDF & Fed ships behaved differently. This was before all the "Console Swaps" within Lockboxes. Universal Stations were once only found ONLY on the KDF Birds of Prey. Not even other KDF ships had Universals at one time. And DHC access was much more limited outside Escorts, but was more widespread in the KDF. Also, this was before Cryptic ending faction-specific missions. The last of the faction specific missions were with LOR's release in 2013 and Cryptic celebrated on not having to work on KDF missions.

    It may not have mattered to most in the game, but when Cryptic removed faction aspects from the PVP queues, that was a huge blow to faction identity.

    When I play different factions in any game, I want them to look, play, sound different from the others, having their own advantages and reasons why you should play them. I despise Simplistic Red vs Blue faction play. A simple reskin does not make a true, independent faction. It actually makes it rather dull and not a unique experience.
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  • tehbubbalootehbubbaloo Member Posts: 2,003 Arc User
    if i wanted simple RvB id play team fortress.
    factions should be different, and have their own strengths and weaknesses.​​
  • tolmariustolmarius Member Posts: 400 Arc User
    Exactly. When I play a Romulan, for example, I don't want to feel like I'm playing a Fed by any other name. I want different appearance, different gameplay, different dialogue. Otherwise, whats the point? LoR was an excellent example of this. Romulan Warbirds play differently from Fed and KDF ships. The dialogue for the Romulan faction missions was great. The outfits and interiors look unique. But now, the trend is moving towards less and less difference. The lockbox prizes mean fewer and fewer unique consoles, traits, and such.The dialogue is simply Fed dialogue with rank titles switched and the occasional insertion of "honor", " glory", and "qapla'" for the Klinks, and really....I no longer see a difference for Roms. Much more of this, and we might as well give up on the idea of even two factions.
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  • puttenhamputtenham Member Posts: 1,052 Arc User
    faction identity is more or less, looks, and feel to me.. meaning, shure they look different, but they should play different.. ive seen someone make the example about everquest, (which they were wrong, its actually world of warcraft they were using being deathknights and what not lol). but... its not the same.. wow and everquest are built around books and the use of the individual readers imagination..

    star trek on the other hand was a tv show predominantly. the show is what the factions should be based off of.. and the show did alot to seperate the major factions.. ie, culture, ships, and even varying degrees of aggression and diplomacy. i think the system in place in sto is a far far cry from what star trek is.. infact, in the romulan case its an abomination in my own opinion.

    getting on. the first year was awesome.. klinks and feds played extremely different, and that was super fun.. but then someone complained that they wanted what the other faction had, and that was the end of that. (however, i think it was the easy lazy way for cryptic to make it look like they introduced something new by rebranding something old in the game, ie consoles and ship layouts..

    id love to see this game get back to basics, and seperate the factions again. part of the reason i do not roll a klink is because why bother... all my feds can basically get and do what a klink can.. its just looks. back in the day when i built my first klink, i did it because it was exciting to play something so different in the same game.

    but yeah, id love to see faction specific mechanics, looks, builds, and content again.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    Yeah, looks is the key thing to making factions different. Players can't actually SEE what makes gameplay mechanics different. What looks like a big change to a player might be a single character in the code, and what looks like a small change might require a completely new subroutine to be written. But players can see what their characters are dressed in, and they can see the environment they live in.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • lsegnlsegn Member Posts: 594 Arc User
    Looks and role-playing make the biggest difference. Most of the differences are in people's imaginations and this is how it should be. Cryptic shouldn't have to do all the heavy lifting when it comes to creativity, human beings all have the ability to generate our own stories.
  • protogothprotogoth Member Posts: 2,369 Arc User
    puttenham wrote: »
    i think the system in place in sto is a far far cry from what star trek is.. infact, in the romulan case its an abomination in my own opinion.

    In what way, specifically? Are you disappointed that the Romulan faction in STO is not a bunch of paranoid, goosestepping, obedient-to-the-state, backstabbing schemers and connivers? 'Cause if that's what you're disappointed about, I will eagerly point out, yet again, that early TNG is where the Romulans went wrong and that they didn't start going right again until late TNG, and I will just as eagerly point out, yet again, that TOS Romulans were a society of honorable warriors who were often savage, but not so different from Humans, and certainly not a society governed by a fascist police state.

    As for the OP's question, faction identity in STO should be about cultures. And yet, within each of the three factions exist more than a single species with its single culture. Orions are not Klingons are not Gorn are not Nausicaans, and Humans are not Vulcans are not Andorians are not Betazoids, and Romulans are not Remans (and hopefully we'll eventually get Acamarian and Suliban player characters as well, which would add even more diversity to the RRF). Mind you, Remans and Romulans started out the same, some 2000 years ago, but not only did the genetics change due to native extremophile species on ch'Havran (Remus), the cultures have diverged a bit as well due to social, political, economic, and environmental differences, to say nothing of historical interactions between Rihannsu and Havrannsu tending to establish two distinct socio-economic classes based largely on "race."
  • lsegnlsegn Member Posts: 594 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    Romulans and KDF actually have the most faction identity. The Federation faction has variety but just like mixing all the colors of the rainbow you get a nice dull brown color. Not worthless but not nearly as interesting or exciting. How about an exercise on how the current factions are perceived?

    KDF - Tough and dangerous, a heavy focus on dealing and surviving extreme punishment. The entire faction is pretty much Engineering/Tactical focussed. Their weakness is a lack of advanced science abilities which makes them vulnerable to Federation captains with more advanced ships at their command.

    Romulans - Powerful and lethal but not designed for prolonged confrontation. They use stealth as a defense preferring to rely on surprise and deception to achieve victory. Their weakness is a lack of tankiness in their vessels making them especially vulnerable to other cloaked vessels and science abilities that weaken their stealth.

    Federation - The everyman's faction with incredible variety but not much specialization. You can try almost any type of ship or build here but the other two factions tend to have better alternatives. Starfleet builds excellent tanks but their main advantage is the advanced and powerful technologies they possess due to the high number of species that comprise the Federation. Their speciality is Science Vessels which are among the most advanced in the galaxy. Their weakness is mostly against tactical heavy ships which can make short work of Starfleet's rather tame offerings.


    I like things pretty well the way they are and I can appreciate and enjoy each faction on its own merits.
  • farmallmfarmallm Member Posts: 4,630 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    Looks and lore is the big part. STO created nice starting points for all 3 of them. Their looks in their areas and some story parts shows differences. Granted you can't have it all different, even WoW faced this at times. Where some story was almost the same. So STO is doing good.

    Like the other said, Role Playing. Plays a big part in this. Where the player creates the identity. Each of my characters I play differently. And that really helps when I play. Even the missions, I treat it like its all new. As each character goes through it. As its part of their story.

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  • puttenhamputtenham Member Posts: 1,052 Arc User
    protogoth wrote: »
    puttenham wrote: »
    i think the system in place in sto is a far far cry from what star trek is.. infact, in the romulan case its an abomination in my own opinion.

    In what way, specifically? Are you disappointed that the Romulan faction in STO is not a bunch of paranoid, goosestepping, obedient-to-the-state, backstabbing schemers and connivers? 'Cause if that's what you're disappointed about, I will eagerly point out, yet again, that early TNG is where the Romulans went wrong and that they didn't start going right again until late TNG, and I will just as eagerly point out, yet again, that TOS Romulans were a society of honorable warriors who were often savage, but not so different from Humans, and certainly not a society governed by a fascist police state.

    well i hate to say it, but in tos, the romulans were in what, 2, maybe three episodes? and even then, they were not showcased.. their race was always left a huge mystery as their culture was extremely xenophobic... and i have also watched tos many times, and the first encounter with the romulans was anything but honorable.. lol, at least how i viewed it and understood it..

    the romulan culture first and foremost was xenophobic. thats why when picard went to romulus, he had no clue what he was flying into... that was always what was pretty fascinating about them for me..

    secondly, i liked the the romulans from tng, it added a new flavor to the show. we had always had klinks with their honor and need for battle, and domination. but the romulans, you never knew what they wanted or what they were going to do.

    the romulans in the game are a green federation.. BORING... if i want to play the feds, i play as a fed... (which i do, i was so excited to play as a romulan, but was so disapointed when we got the space hippies instead.. i played through the episodes and deleted my romulan...)

    the romulans were portrayed as they were in tng, in voyager (the few episodes they were in) ds9, and enterprise.. it is safe to assume that their culture was this way... to have anything less is a slap in the face to most star trek fans.. i know most fans i talk to take a pass on romulans in the game.. infact, most of the peeps i know who fly as romulan are not really star trek fans, and they do it for the scimitar.. not cause they have a love of the abomination cryptic created. im not saying everyone likes or hates it, but from what i have read, heard, and seen, the romulan faction is not what people wanted. sure, you have a few loud voices who say its the bees knees, and again, most of the peeps who play this game not because it is star trek, but a free to play game choose the faction because of the scimitar..

    what is the biggest thing people say about a cardassian faction, that they do not want it to be treated like the romulan faction was.. lol..

    just because you like something, doesnt mean everyone else does (and i understand this to be reversed on me as well), but again, there is a reason the games devisions is usually more than 50 percent feds, and the rest are split between the other 2 factions.

  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    farmallm wrote: »
    Looks and lore is the big part. STO created nice starting points for all 3 of them. Their looks in their areas and some story parts shows differences. Granted you can't have it all different, even WoW faced this at times. Where some story was almost the same. So STO is doing good.

    Like the other said, Role Playing. Plays a big part in this. Where the player creates the identity. Each of my characters I play differently. And that really helps when I play. Even the missions, I treat it like its all new. As each character goes through it. As its part of their story.
    This has been brought up during our FoundryRoundTable discussions in the context of players writing multiple dialog paths for Foundry missions. It's nice, but.... doing it for every single dialog choice is insane. You end up writing several times as much dialog and get every little out of it.

    The easiest way, and in truth the BEST, is to use race dialog as flavor and not try to actually write unique dialogs, especially since all dialog options lead to mission completion anyways(at least in Foundry). For example, giving the player several options to address someone, such as jolan'tru or qapla. It's not even a fork in the story, it's a single redundant dialog path since the outcome is the same for each choice. I guess you could say that from a gameplay perspective it's a non-choice since it does the same thing either way. BUT, it adds an air of choice to what the player does and makes it feel a bit more like they are choosing what to do even if nothing really happens.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • protogothprotogoth Member Posts: 2,369 Arc User
    puttenham wrote: »
    protogoth wrote: »
    puttenham wrote: »
    i think the system in place in sto is a far far cry from what star trek is.. infact, in the romulan case its an abomination in my own opinion.

    In what way, specifically? Are you disappointed that the Romulan faction in STO is not a bunch of paranoid, goosestepping, obedient-to-the-state, backstabbing schemers and connivers? 'Cause if that's what you're disappointed about, I will eagerly point out, yet again, that early TNG is where the Romulans went wrong and that they didn't start going right again until late TNG, and I will just as eagerly point out, yet again, that TOS Romulans were a society of honorable warriors who were often savage, but not so different from Humans, and certainly not a society governed by a fascist police state.

    well i hate to say it, but in tos, the romulans were in what, 2, maybe three episodes? and even then, they were not showcased.. their race was always left a huge mystery as their culture was extremely xenophobic... and i have also watched tos many times, and the first encounter with the romulans was anything but honorable.. lol, at least how i viewed it and understood it..

    Why? Because they attacked border outposts from a position of stealth? Those were the equivalent of frontier forts in Mister Roddenberry's "wagon train to the stars." They were not civilian population centers, after all, but military installations along a border established after defeat in war, to keep the Romulans from expanding into what the Federation regarded as its own territory, in spite of some of that territory having previously been within Romulan territory. We have a lot of talk about Romulans being based on Romans, and that is certainly true to some extent, culturally, but there is also the original intent of Mister Roddenberry to have the UFP represent the United States and NATO, the Klingon Empire represent the USSR, and the Romulan Star Empire represent the People's Republic of China. And there is also that aspect of Trek being conceived and pitched as a "wagon train to the stars," with an Old West/frontier theme going on, such that the Federation had taken territory from the Natives, who would eventually push back. Things could have gone another way there, had the show not been Humanocentric. You can see the push-back as dishonorable if you like. I do not.

    As for the "mystery," there was plenty of development of Romulan culture in between TOS and TNG, which the writers and producers of TNG chose to reject, but we're talking about almost 2 decades of conception of the Romulans based on TOS and TAS, in a time when the concept of "canon" or "hard canon" had not yet been developed. And then along came the "new and improved" Trek (which was almost pure dreck for the first 3 seasons, and never much more than tolerable even by the final season), turning all of that into refuse by totally rewriting the Romulans as something they were never shown to be previously, in canon or not, all because the movie era between TAS and TNG stole the "honorable warrior" schtick from the Romulans and gave it to the Klingons, who previously had been, essentially, Cossacks at best, and cut-throat pirates otherwise.
    puttenham wrote: »
    the romulan culture first and foremost was xenophobic.

    I've heard/read a lot of claims around here that Romulans are "xenophobic." I think that characterization is countered by a number of things throughout the series, from TOS to ENT. So at this point, I'm going to respond to that with this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

    puttenham wrote: »
    thats why when picard went to romulus, he had no clue what he was flying into... that was always what was pretty fascinating about them for me..

    secondly, i liked the the romulans from tng, it added a new flavor to the show. we had always had klinks with their honor and need for battle, and domination. but the romulans, you never knew what they wanted or what they were going to do.

    No, the Klingons were not always honorable. TOS has several more episodes with Klingons than it does with Romulans, and those encounters were always touch and go. The crew and Captain never knew what was going to happen when dealing with Klingons, because, as I noted above, at best they were Cossacks, and when they weren't Cossacks, they were cut-throat pirates. Only in the movie era did Klingons begin to be presented as concerned with honor.
    puttenham wrote: »
    the romulans in the game are a green federation.. BORING... if i want to play the feds, i play as a fed... (which i do, i was so excited to play as a romulan, but was so disapointed when we got the space hippies instead.. i played through the episodes and deleted my romulan...)

    The fact that they aren't fascist bully boys does not make them "space hippies." Try to escape from black and white thinking. There are numerous shades of grey. Nor are they a "green federation." The notion that democracy and republic are purely Human concepts is a strange one. The Vulcans had a confederacy, which is (ostensibly) even more democratic than a federation, established some time before the foundation of the UFP, as noted in hard canon. The Bajorans had their first republic over 20,000 years ago, as established in hard canon. The reason the Romulans left Vulcan in the first place was to preserve their own freedom against growing pressure from the Vulcan establishment to conform to a distorted form of Surak's teachings, and persecution of any and all dissidents by that same Vulcan government two-thousand years ago. Yeah, there were Tellus' bunch of warmongering nitwits, and the terrorists of the Te-Vikram Brotherhood, and the Technocrats, but there were also followers of Ajoisam (pure Elementalism) and the Mother's Weavers, and even followers of Surak who went on The Journey, and the successors of those Surakians were seen in the two-part TNG episode "Unification." We have Romulans and Remans allied with the Klingon Empire, who get some rather interesting DOff assignments which are far from consistent with Federation values and who get to fight Starfleet vessels and ground personnel (and who did a lot more of that before the Exploration Clusters were removed).

    In addition, even in TNG and the later series, we saw several Romulans who did not fit the fascist police state theme which was predominant (but not universal) in the Star Navy and universal in the Tal'Shiar. All of this has been discussed and debated to death in the Romulan Gameplay forum since LoR came out, at times even coming very close to outright forum warfare. Fortunately, things in that forum have finally subsided into what might be seen more as akin to a cold war.
    puttenham wrote: »
    the romulans were portrayed as they were in tng, in voyager (the few episodes they were in) ds9, and enterprise.. it is safe to assume that their culture was this way... to have anything less is a slap in the face to most star trek fans.. i know most fans i talk to take a pass on romulans in the game.. infact, most of the peeps i know who fly as romulan are not really star trek fans, and they do it for the scimitar.. not cause they have a love of the abomination cryptic created. im not saying everyone likes or hates it, but from what i have read, heard, and seen, the romulan faction is not what people wanted. sure, you have a few loud voices who say its the bees knees, and again, most of the peeps who play this game not because it is star trek, but a free to play game choose the faction because of the scimitar..

    Again, Doctor Telek tr'R'Mor, Alidar tr'Jarok, Senator Kimara t'Cretak, Commander t'Toreth, the unnamed Romulan commander in "The Chase," Vice-Proconsul tr'M'ret, and even (arguably) Donatra and her followers (and possibly Senator tr'Vrinak ["Vreenak" in Federation transliteration]), suggest that the TOS Romulan perspective was not gone, but was probably not the perspective in power. I'm a major Trekker. I'm old enough to remember TOS before it was in reruns. I play this game because Trek, not because game (although I'm a gamer as well). Nearly 20 years of the original ideal of Romulans cannot be washed away by new series, especially when those new series give nods to the former presentation.

    In addition, the average Romulan lifespan is 200-250 Earth-years, and there is evidence that the situation in the RSE seen in TNG was a relatively new development (this could be easily explained by reference to political factions rising and falling, but the soft canon explanation is that the Tal'Shiar was established in 2344, and very quickly, that is, by 2373, had become as corrupt as, if not more corrupt than, the civilian intelligence service they were established to replace, usurping power and spreading terror among the population as their corruption increased, such that, by 2364, when we first encounter Romulans again in TNG, political power has largely been concentrated in the hands of the Tal'Shiar and their supporters). The first episode of TNG is set in 2364, while the last episode of TOS is set in 2269, with the final episode of TAS set in 2270. That means that, between the TOS/TAS Romulans and the TNG Romulans, a mere 94/95 years have passed. When the average lifespan of a Romulan being 200-250 Earth-years is taken into account, and the typical idea that Romulans and Vulcans come to adulthood at roughly the same age as Humans (17-21), 95 years is not sufficient time to totally obscure the former culture and society, much less for the generation active in TOS/TAS to die off. That there is resistance to the new order is evident in several episodes of TNG and later series. "Unification" (parts 1 and 2) shows the Surakian example. "Face of the Enemy" shows two different examples of Romulan military resistance, one being Subcommander tr'N'vek and the other being Commander t'Toreth. The comments of the unnamed Romulan Commander at the end of "The Chase" were also something upon which the Tal'Shiar would not have looked favorably. Then we have tr'Jarok and Dr tr'R'Mor on top of that. To suppose that Romulans were somehow devoid of diversity is to take a terribly one-dimensional view of the people, their culture, and their society.
    puttenham wrote: »
    what is the biggest thing people say about a cardassian faction, that they do not want it to be treated like the romulan faction was.. lol..

    They don't want it to be a half-faction, yes. And many don't want the Cardassians to suddenly become "good guys." The "Path to 2409" indicates that it would not exactly be "sudden," however. The Cardassian Union is gone. The Obsidian Order is gone. The government and society of the Cardassian people is different now from what it was in DS9. Mind you, I doubt that the Cardassians would have become entirely "good guys" by 2409/2410, but expecting them to still be exactly like they were in DS9 is unrealistic, based on the backstory Cryptic devised in "Path to 2409."
    puttenham wrote: »
    just because you like something, doesnt mean everyone else does (and i understand this to be reversed on me as well), but again, there is a reason the games devisions is usually more than 50 percent feds, and the rest are split between the other 2 factions.

    Yes, there is a reason. It's called "the KDF is treated as 2nd class citizens and the RRF is treated as 3rd class citizens." When the options available to Feds outnumber the options available to KDF and RRF combined, the disparity and favoritism should be obvious. Only those who truly love those cultures (without a one-dimensional understanding of them) are likely to want to play members of those factions.
  • lsegnlsegn Member Posts: 594 Arc User
    Ok I'm leaving now.
  • azniadeetazniadeet Member Posts: 1,871 Arc User
    Factions are needless. Let's all get on the same team, then we can fight amongst ourselves.
  • farmallmfarmallm Member Posts: 4,630 Arc User
    The easiest way, and in truth the BEST, is to use race dialog as flavor and not try to actually write unique dialogs, especially since all dialog options lead to mission completion anyways(at least in Foundry). For example, giving the player several options to address someone, such as jolan'tru or qapla. It's not even a fork in the story, it's a single redundant dialog path since the outcome is the same for each choice. I guess you could say that from a gameplay perspective it's a non-choice since it does the same thing either way. BUT, it adds an air of choice to what the player does and makes it feel a bit more like they are choosing what to do even if nothing really happens.

    I would like better options when talking to a person as well. And have the npc to show who you are. Like they are addressing Fed, Romulan, or KDF. There is things they could done for the story wise.
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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,016 Arc User
    Faction Identity in STO? That once existed, especially in the first years of the game. Anyways, I equate faction identity as basically this:

    Looks/Appearances, gameplay differences, unique storyline with their own POV.

    (cut for convenience)

    I completely agree. When a game offers different factions I surely expect features that make me want to play all of them and get a complete "taste" for the game, not just wear different costumes while going through the exact same hoops. The best formula to achieve this is to follow a basic real-time-strategy model of having balanced but ultiamtely different factions sharing basics but sport vastly different specializations, strenghts and weaknesses. You don't balance something by giving everyone the exact same units, you balance it because you give them tools to counter the other specialization - especially if the game is based on an established universe that gave us workable characteristics of the two factions involved. A third faction would have been even better but we all know Cryptic decided against that.

    Different appeareance and taste of lore are a given but if they are just superficial, minor dialogue tweaks like STO has them it becomes worthless in terms of "faction identidy".

    Diverse factions also improve a game's longevity and especially STO is in urgent need to provide sustainable content - it baffles me that they went the unifaction route. But I guess people pay enough money to play the same content over and over and over and over again.

    ​​
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