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Speaking of Orions, Should there be an option for males with hair?

drakethewhitedrakethewhite Member Posts: 1,240 Arc User
The concept that Orion males are all bald is based on what? One episode of Enterprise?

Seems like a classic case of taking one cultural example where something might be in style and transposing it upon a entire species. It's like if someone put a human biker gang in one show and forever more all humans appeared in leathers.

Speaking of Orions, Should there be an option for males with hair? 30 votes

Yes, Orion males are not all decendents of the Picard family after an accident with Green Kool Aid
46%
tk79jodarkriderguljarolvengefuldjinnphenomenaut01bloodyrizkodachikunojarenriccardrakethewhiteghostmatterhyperionx09thelordofshadesvelzarifrankwarthden 14 votes
No, Leave the male orions alone. No one cares about them anyways.
53%
shpoksgavinrunebladealexraptorrthemetalstickmangaevsmanmustrumridcully0artan42kjwashingtonsysil84anonymousplaguerakija879jexsamxdurenasryikehunteralpha84iyx#3242 16 votes

Comments

  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    edited July 2015
    No, Leave the male orions alone. No one cares about them anyways.
    But also give them nice snazzy costumes.
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    Post edited by artan42 on
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    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • drakethewhitedrakethewhite Member Posts: 1,240 Arc User
    Yes, Orion males are not all decendents of the Picard family after an accident with Green Kool Aid
    Yes, they should have their own costume options. Those from Enterprise were rather well done.
  • goodscotchgoodscotch Member Posts: 1,680 Arc User
    Seems to me with those women running around, the high testosterone would cause some serious male pattern baldness BIG TIME!
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  • drakethewhitedrakethewhite Member Posts: 1,240 Arc User
    Yes, Orion males are not all decendents of the Picard family after an accident with Green Kool Aid
    goodscotch wrote: »
    Seems to me with those women running around, the high testosterone would cause some serious male pattern baldness BIG TIME!

    So we can soon expect the Klingons males to lose all their hair now? :)
  • jexsamxjexsamx Member Posts: 2,804 Arc User
    No, Leave the male orions alone. No one cares about them anyways.
    Though I agree with the principle behind your questioning on Orion men's baldness, OP, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you and your obvious pro-hair bias.

    Orion men lack hair, so we have nothing to extrapolate on for potential male hairstyles. This is not like the case of, say, Romulans, who wear a specific style of hair pretty much universally yet have multiple hairstyles in-game. The difference being, the hair existing and styled as it is implies it grows and can be styled. Orion men don't even have that starting point - we can't assume they can grow hair because we never ever see it.

    Now, if you wanted to roll an Alien and play him as an Orion/[species] hybrid, you could easily justify any hair you wanted. But evidence and logic demand Orion men do not grow hair on their heads. That one episode of Enterprise shows numerous Orion men, I should point out, and not one has hair. If we were to assume baldness were simply a style, logically one or more of them could have been shown without it, or perhaps with creatively shaved heads that emulate their propensity for decorating their craniums with leather chaff and the contents of Frankenstein's jewelry box.

    The obvious conclusion here is that Orion men are, without exception, bald. Until shown on-screen that this is not the case, it's the only evidence-backed conclusion we can arrive at.
  • drakethewhitedrakethewhite Member Posts: 1,240 Arc User
    Yes, Orion males are not all decendents of the Picard family after an accident with Green Kool Aid
    jexsamx wrote: »
    The obvious conclusion here is that Orion men are, without exception, bald. Until shown on-screen that this is not the case, it's the only evidence-backed conclusion we can arrive at.

    You do realize that drawing any conclusion based upon a chance encounter with members of a single group is the definition of a logical fail right?

    I do however respect your opinion that STO should limit itself to what's shown on screen (although I must point out all the millions of ways STO breaks that desire). I just don't care for the term's "obvious conclusion" and "only evidence" as applied to the characteristics of even fictional races.
  • jexsamxjexsamx Member Posts: 2,804 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    No, Leave the male orions alone. No one cares about them anyways.
    The problem you run into is that you can justify almost any assumption on the grounds that "they don't show otherwise". I could claim Orions come in every color of the rainbow, and you couldn't tell me I'm wrong because we were just never shown otherwise.

    Incidentally, if we dig into soft canon, we can support both my slapdash example above and your hair argument by noting the soft-canonical existence of >Ruddy Orions<. Trouble being this is soft-canon, unsupported by hard canon. Though again, that's never stopped STO.

    Another problem with assumptions about fictional races is you don't actually know the rules by which they are written. You can assume they might have hair, but remember, they're fictional - it's just as easy they could indeed all be bald as an identifying trait of the race, and claming otherwise could be akin to claiming not all Vulcans have pointy ears. Fictional races aren't bound to the same logic we can apply to real-world cultures or species.

    At the end of the day I suppose neither of us is necessarily wrong in our pro- or anti-hair positions, depending on which points made we agree or disagree with, or how far we feel logic and/or common sense will go in this discussion.
  • drakethewhitedrakethewhite Member Posts: 1,240 Arc User
    Yes, Orion males are not all decendents of the Picard family after an accident with Green Kool Aid
    jexsamx wrote: »
    Incidentally, if we dig into soft canon, we can support both my slapdash example above and your hair argument by noting the soft-canonical existence of Ruddy Orions. Trouble being this is soft-canon, unsupported by hard canon.

    No it hasn't. And one can even point out that in a draft of the original pilot script, Green Orions were rare (hence they were referenced as *green* Orions)- other hues were more typical.
    jexsamx wrote: »
    Though again, that's never stopped STO.

    No it hasn't, and at this point any appeal to canon is hypocritical IMO.
  • monkeybone13monkeybone13 Member Posts: 4,640 Arc User
    Male Orions do have hair. They were given the middle parted hair that was added with Delta Rising.
  • gradiigradii Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    Definitely not. adding more options to races would destroy faction uniqueness!

    "He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
    Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
    he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
    In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
    He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
    He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
    He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
    He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,016 Arc User
    Hair is the least problem Orions in STO have. I'm not a big fan of them, but even I can see how terrible they are depicted. I'd like to see non-syndicate options. You know, the Orion Syndicate is just one mafia organization - it is neither the government of Orions nor an entity representing the entire Orion civilization. Orions are space-faring explorers, scientists, astronomists, traders - STO seems to only draw from ENT when something is available, and that was terrible.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • bernatkbernatk Member Posts: 1,089 Bug Hunter
    I did not vote because as balding dude I find your options offensive lol... but anyway, yes orion males should have more hair options.
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  • tehbubbalootehbubbaloo Member Posts: 2,003 Arc User
    I actually saw a male orion toon once.
  • hunteralpha84hunteralpha84 Member Posts: 524 Arc User
    No, Leave the male orions alone. No one cares about them anyways.
    Holy TRIBBLE. Animated series looks awesome! Why don't they make a purely CGI series?
  • drakethewhitedrakethewhite Member Posts: 1,240 Arc User
    Yes, Orion males are not all decendents of the Picard family after an accident with Green Kool Aid
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Hair is the least problem Orions in STO have. I'm not a big fan of them, but even I can see how terrible they are depicted. I'd like to see non-syndicate options. You know, the Orion Syndicate is just one mafia organization - it is neither the government of Orions nor an entity representing the entire Orion civilization. Orions are space-faring explorers, scientists, astronomists, traders - STO seems to only draw from ENT when something is available, and that was terrible.

    Yes, STO does have a bad habit of using only one piece of Star Trek lore- and the fact that it's the oldest piece in the time line makes it all the worse. They also made a serious error when they lumped interesting races in with the Klingons just to give them racial options instead of doing them as mini-factions with their own backgrounds and styles.

    The result was and is horribly one-dimensional. Orions that talk like Klingons and nothing else. Gorn that talk like Klingons and nothing else, and so on. All for a setting that *never* showed non-Klingons (except for Riker) on a Klingon warship!.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Hair is the least problem Orions in STO have. I'm not a big fan of them, but even I can see how terrible they are depicted. I'd like to see non-syndicate options. You know, the Orion Syndicate is just one mafia organization - it is neither the government of Orions nor an entity representing the entire Orion civilization. Orions are space-faring explorers, scientists, astronomists, traders - STO seems to only draw from ENT when something is available, and that was terrible.
    I'm pretty sure that they drew equal inspiration from TOS and TAS..... the Orions in them were sneaky and treacherous too...
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • drakethewhitedrakethewhite Member Posts: 1,240 Arc User
    Yes, Orion males are not all decendents of the Picard family after an accident with Green Kool Aid
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Hair is the least problem Orions in STO have. I'm not a big fan of them, but even I can see how terrible they are depicted. I'd like to see non-syndicate options. You know, the Orion Syndicate is just one mafia organization - it is neither the government of Orions nor an entity representing the entire Orion civilization. Orions are space-faring explorers, scientists, astronomists, traders - STO seems to only draw from ENT when something is available, and that was terrible.
    I'm pretty sure that they drew equal inspiration from TOS and TAS..... the Orions in them were sneaky and treacherous too...

    Not so much.

    TOS and TAS Orions were strictly neutral, the better to keep their criminal options option (i.e. target everyone) and maintain their secrecy and independence. They *never* would have joined the KDF.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,016 Arc User
    I'm pretty sure that they drew equal inspiration from TOS and TAS..... the Orions in them were sneaky and treacherous too...

    Aside from the racial quirks (Orions were never openly portrayed to be anything but pirates, granted, but dialogue mentioned the prestigious Orion scientific instititutes and their technological advances), if they had drawn from TAS we would indeed have more than half-naked thugs. TAS Orions in particular were shown to wear full uniforms including helmets f1900b619aab2e8382fc6fff315b26f1.gif
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • skrapnelskrapnel Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    The concept that Orion males are all bald is based on what? One episode of Enterprise?

    Two, Borderlands and Bound, actually.... each of which did show several Orion males..... all of them bald.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure that they drew equal inspiration from TOS and TAS..... the Orions in them were sneaky and treacherous too...

    Aside from the racial quirks (Orions were never openly portrayed to be anything but pirates, granted, but dialogue mentioned the prestigious Orion scientific instititutes and their technological advances), if they had drawn from TAS we would indeed have more than half-naked thugs. TAS Orions in particular were shown to wear full uniforms including helmets f1900b619aab2e8382fc6fff315b26f1.gif
    Devna disagrees. :p
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • gavinrunebladegavinruneblade Member Posts: 3,894 Arc User
    No, Leave the male orions alone. No one cares about them anyways.
    I think k they should have really terrible toupee options.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    No, Leave the male orions alone. No one cares about them anyways.
    angrytarg wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure that they drew equal inspiration from TOS and TAS..... the Orions in them were sneaky and treacherous too...

    Aside from the racial quirks (Orions were never openly portrayed to be anything but pirates, granted, but dialogue mentioned the prestigious Orion scientific instititutes and their technological advances), if they had drawn from TAS we would indeed have more than half-naked thugs. TAS Orions in particular were shown to wear full uniforms including helmets f1900b619aab2e8382fc6fff315b26f1.gif

    Look at my pics above, the slave owner from ENT wore similar armour as well. I can't remember the episode but I assumed the half dressed guy behind is a slave of some sort.

    As for the half naked males from the auction house... I got nuthin.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,820 Arc User
    As someone who plays a male Orion, we have some of the coolest custom options.

    I will note Orion Culture is clearly inspired by BDSM culture, hence all the male body piercings for example.
  • kittyflofykittyflofy Member Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    I dont get it. Orions have hair, since a long time ago. At least the last male orion i created a couple of months ago have hair right now. Hmm, or i am just confused??
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