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Apparently Annorax's timeship never existed.

gradiigradii Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
Voyager caused it to erase itself. So.... maybe the Krenim have a way to "remember" it, but technically if its "re" built it will be the first time.

"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
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Comments

  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    ah, what happened was that Voyager didn't erase it from the timeline. Voyager merely forced a reset. It seems that the inventor and commander decided that it wasn't worth it and decided to enjoy the time with his wife... suggesting he remembered some of it.
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,820 Arc User
    The ship itself was deleted from the timeline, but the idea it was based on was not.
  • gradiigradii Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    lordgyor wrote: »
    The ship itself was deleted from the timeline, but the idea it was based on was not.

    Yeah what I was suggesting was something along those lines. we'll be building the first one
    (if we decide to do something that dumb)

    "He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
    Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
    he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
    In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
    He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
    He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
    He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
    He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
  • sarosssaross Member Posts: 248 Media Corps
    I hate Temporal Paradoxes...

    SO yes, When Voyager crashed into in the Year of Hell it forced a reset thus making the it not exist. But you will notice that he had all the plans for it ready to roll out, maybe minus a calculation or two. The only thing that would be different with this time is that he didn't have a strong need, his wife was alive and time changed something so that he didn't have to become Captain Ahab again going on a crusade to restore his wife back to the continuum he lived in.
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  • kimmymkimmym Member Posts: 1,317 Arc User
    All I care about is if I'm going to be able to fly it!
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  • orionburstorionburst Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    saross wrote: »
    I hate Temporal Paradoxes...

    SO yes, When Voyager crashed into in the Year of Hell it forced a reset thus making the it not exist. But you will notice that he had all the plans for it ready to roll out, maybe minus a calculation or two. The only thing that would be different with this time is that he didn't have a strong need, his wife was alive and time changed something so that he didn't have to become Captain Ahab again going on a crusade to restore his wife back to the continuum he lived in.

    What I think happened is the temporal police intervened after the reset (theres nothing that says the temporal police couldn't see that timeline or react in that timeline) and so sent an agent back to before the reset to alter Annorax (my wager is they put the year of hell events in his mind as a dream, a mind experiment and that in turn made him not finish the project as he realised the problems)

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  • captmal105captmal105 Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    kimmym wrote: »
    All I care about is if I'm going to be able to fly it!
    I remember it being a pretty sizable ship so I would think it wouldn't be one we could get for ourselves just have it in a mission. But they also love taking our money maybe a smaller version in a lockbox
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,016 Arc User
    The episode made it clear (at least I think so) that the timeship was never realized and the plans were abandoned (remember, Annorax wasn't enjoying the time with his wife instead of the year of habbalooba, he lived in the 22nd century).

    Of course, Cryptic wants to show the canon design and cash in on that, but in terms of continuity and logic the whole Krynum lockbox thing makes no sense.
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    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • lsegnlsegn Member Posts: 594 Arc User
    I seriously doubt the lockbox will have the actual time ship in it... Maybe a variation of it though. It'd be worse then flying a Borg Tactical Cube!
  • lsegnlsegn Member Posts: 594 Arc User
    From the looks of it we're getting a Krenim Warship and a Zahl Cruiser. Don't know which will be Lobi or Lockbox yet. The Timeship or Baby Timeship as I suspect it'll be, will likely not be part of the lockbox but rather a mission reward or perhaps the next ultra rare ship (Sheshar, JHSS, Voth Buttplug)

    I'm putting my money on the latter.

    The point is, we have three T6 ships incoming at about the same time that all have to do with the Krenim. Only two will be part of the next lockbox which begs the question of which one will be left out and how will we obtain it? Perhaps they just like having a backup option? They've already pulled 2-3 other Lockbox/Lobi ships before release for unexplained reasons.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,016 Arc User
    lsegn wrote: »
    I seriously doubt the lockbox will have the actual time ship in it... Maybe a variation of it though. It'd be worse then flying a Borg Tactical Cube!

    STO explains those things away with their Q - erm Lobi consortium. Those Ferengi are able to just "remove" 29th century timeship technology (because it wouldn't be fair to sell it?), they make bioships compatible to humanoid piloting and they surely will just "remove" the doonsday timelaser and make it a regular cruiser...
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • kittyflofykittyflofy Member Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    ¿? The plans for the ship could be stored elsewhere. The space is vast, you know, right??
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,016 Arc User
    kittyflofy wrote: »
    ¿? The plans for the ship could be stored elsewhere. The space is vast, you know, right??

    Yip, the insta-win doomsday weapon plans could totally be forgotten for some odd 250-300 years. Makes sense.

    The Krumin Empire turned out the way it was shown in year of hell obviously wthout the use of the timeship. So the plans didn't leave Annorax's home, he probably deleted them. Of course this is speculation, but what we saw was pretty straight forward. Just pulling some obscure elements and stating "we all forgot about it, but now it's back" is rather poor storytelling - Cryptic obviously did that, though.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • kittyflofykittyflofy Member Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    Some of you seem to forget time is timeless. You can make something dissapear for 300 years but for that very hidden race no time was passed. That is what annorax did a few times in the Time Ship. He could erase a race from history or just restore em just at the same time. And we dont have a clue if some Krenim survived, we dont have a clue if even after what Annorax did some Krenim survived, we dont have a clue about anything. So making conjetures is really dangerous xD. This is one of the reasons cryptic is "allowed" to almost invent everything about the Krenim plot. And in this new "plot" everything about the Krenim is possible.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,016 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    kittyflofy wrote: »
    Some of you seem to forget time is timeless. You can make something dissapear for 300 years but for that very hidden race no time was passed. That is what annorax did a few times in the Time Ship. He could erase a race from history or just restore em just at the same time. And we dont have a clue if some Krenim survived, we dont have a clue if even after what Annorax did some Krenim survived, we dont have a clue about anything. So making conjetures is really dangerous xD. This is one of the reasons cryptic is "allowed" to almost invent everything about the Krenim plot. And in this new "plot" everything about the Krenim is possible.

    The weapon ship didn't "hide" anything, though. It erased whatever it was pointing at from time. The only time things got "restored" is when the timeship itself was erased which invalidated everything happening before. In that model of time there is only one timeline and all paradoxa caused by the weapon ship were "rectified" when the ship itself was removed. So we saw what the timeline played out with the weapon ship, at the end of the episode the weapon ship did not exist or else the events would have repeated itself. Having the plans resurface later makes no sense.

    But youa re right of course, Cryptic write their own fanficiton basically and nobody can argue with them if they suddenly decide the weapon ship is back or even to put it in lockboxes. But it still doesn't make sense.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • medalionemissarymedalionemissary Member Posts: 612 Arc User
    I find it interesting the new Delta Fleet Holdings looks like a Krenim Time Vessel pointing vertically instead
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  • walligigwalligig Member Posts: 308 Arc User
    The main thing that has been confusing me is how in the FE, the Krenim knew about Annorex's battle with Voyager and her allies. While it is plausible that the Krenim found the plans for the timeship witch is how they knew about it, but that battle should have never happened. I have 2 guesses. One is that in the new timeline Annorex did eventually finish the timeship, got into a battle with another set of unknown allies, and lost. I find this one extremely unlikely. Two, the Krenim had a way of monitoring different timelines, even ones that were erased and didn't happen. I don't know though. Hopefully we will get a better explanation in the next episode.
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  • gavinrunebladegavinruneblade Member Posts: 3,894 Arc User
    Annorax's also had developed a technique for predicting changes from changing time. Though it wasn't perfected. Perhaps he kept working on other areas of temporal physics including observing and recording parallel timelines?

    I look forward to getting more info on why the time ship was ever built and just want happened to it in this particular universe.
  • sarosssaross Member Posts: 248 Media Corps
    Watch the end of that episode though. It shows the timeship that Voyager JUST blew up.

    So the plans were already there. The only thing that might have been lacking would be the final calculations that finished the ship. And there's no clue if he finished those calculations but never sent the ship off to be built. For all we know in the time since he got up to be with his wife he could've gone back the next day to work on those plans some more. But instead of building the ship this time, he just files it away into the Krenim Secret files. We don't know, but I do know from watching that episode the other day that he DID have the structure of the ship mapped out and many calculations for it. What wasn't clear was if it got finished, or how close to being finished on the plans it was. My suspicion is that he was very close to having it ready for production.
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    The way I see it.

    The timeship was never build. Annorex had an idea how to make it, but he abandoned it. We don't know how long, in the original time, it took him to turn the timeship from a theoretical construct into an actual, working ship. It probably involves both a lot of theoretical work as well as plain engineering work to get it done.

    His original work that lead to the timeship in the original time faded a bit into obscurity, but some of his theories survived. Enough for the Krenim to develop some temporal technology -but it never really went into the direction of the timeship. Until some type of experimentation or exploration with their existing temporal technology unveiled details about an alternative timeline where Annorex build the ship and was eventually defeated.
    But the Krenim technology and resources were no longer sufficient to build a fully functioning time machine or time ship.

    You might compare it to giving someone the construction details for a modern computer processor to someone in the late 40s of the 20th century. He would probably grasp the concepts, and if you go give him all the theoretical groundwork, you could jump start the computer technology. But - there is a lot of infrastructure around a modern chip factory. How to make a clean room as clean as required. How to get all the materials in the required quality. How to work with the materials with the necessary precision. And to actually put the processor to use, you need software, that requires other types of hardware to run.
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  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    walligig wrote: »
    The main thing that has been confusing me is how in the FE, the Krenim knew about Annorex's battle with Voyager and her allies. While it is plausible that the Krenim found the plans for the timeship witch is how they knew about it, but that battle should have never happened. I have 2 guesses. One is that in the new timeline Annorex did eventually finish the timeship, got into a battle with another set of unknown allies, and lost. I find this one extremely unlikely. Two, the Krenim had a way of monitoring different timelines, even ones that were erased and didn't happen. I don't know though. Hopefully we will get a better explanation in the next episode.

    Okay. So what I saw in the episode and with a WILLING suspension of disbelief suggests that, yes, Annorax designed the timeship and that it was one branch of a Krenim specialty in temporal technology. Which makes some sense because it would be kind of dumb if he just built a timeship without his people being temporal specialists. (Incidentally, so are the Federation but the Federation seems to classify/lock-up its research in this area so far.) They were using chroniton weapons even without Annorax's design.

    And, yes, it would appear that they can monitor alternate timelines and view deleted timelines, which I am sure will be key going forward.

    And that's a fairly reasonable ability to have in sci-fi. It's just like the Guardian of Forever only looking sideways.

    And literally ANYTHING CRYPTIC CHOSE TO DO would be reasonable as long as it showed the Krenim having temporal technology (it would be laughably absurd for them not to be depicted as temporal specialists) and it showed that Annorax abandoned his plans (since we saw that) and it showed that the Krenim had lost ground to enemies (since that was established).
  • themetalstickmanthemetalstickman Member Posts: 1,010 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    The fact that Voyager's "forced reset" erased the specific ship that Annorax built doesn't mean that all trace of it was erased from the timeline. Indeed, at the end of the episode we see that Annorax still created the plans for the ship, which likely means he has the principles that the temporal weapon works by already worked out. And even disregarding Annorax's timeship, we already knew that the Krenim used chroniton torpedoes, which themselves are temporal technology.
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  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,284 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The weapon ship didn't "hide" anything, though. It erased whatever it was pointing at from time. The only time things got "restored" is when the timeship itself was erased which invalidated everything happening before. In that model of time there is only one timeline and all paradoxa caused by the weapon ship were "rectified" when the ship itself was removed. So we saw what the timeline played out with the weapon ship, at the end of the episode the weapon ship did not exist or else the events would have repeated itself. Having the plans resurface later makes no sense.

    ANNORAX: You can't imagine the burden of memory that I carry. Thousands of worlds, billions of lives, gone, brought back, gone again. I try to rationalise the loss. They're not really being destroyed, because they never existed. Sometimes I can almost convince myself.

    so tell me...if the only way to restore something erased by the timeship is to destroy the timeship, how could the above statement have been made?
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  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,602 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The weapon ship didn't "hide" anything, though. It erased whatever it was pointing at from time. The only time things got "restored" is when the timeship itself was erased which invalidated everything happening before. In that model of time there is only one timeline and all paradoxa caused by the weapon ship were "rectified" when the ship itself was removed. So we saw what the timeline played out with the weapon ship, at the end of the episode the weapon ship did not exist or else the events would have repeated itself. Having the plans resurface later makes no sense.

    ANNORAX: You can't imagine the burden of memory that I carry. Thousands of worlds, billions of lives, gone, brought back, gone again. I try to rationalise the loss. They're not really being destroyed, because they never existed. Sometimes I can almost convince myself.

    so tell me...if the only way to restore something erased by the timeship is to destroy the timeship, how could the above statement have been made?

    Simple, the statement in question was made prior to the destruction of the timeship.
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  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,284 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The weapon ship didn't "hide" anything, though. It erased whatever it was pointing at from time. The only time things got "restored" is when the timeship itself was erased which invalidated everything happening before. In that model of time there is only one timeline and all paradoxa caused by the weapon ship were "rectified" when the ship itself was removed. So we saw what the timeline played out with the weapon ship, at the end of the episode the weapon ship did not exist or else the events would have repeated itself. Having the plans resurface later makes no sense.

    ANNORAX: You can't imagine the burden of memory that I carry. Thousands of worlds, billions of lives, gone, brought back, gone again. I try to rationalise the loss. They're not really being destroyed, because they never existed. Sometimes I can almost convince myself.

    so tell me...if the only way to restore something erased by the timeship is to destroy the timeship, how could the above statement have been made?

    Simple, the statement in question was made prior to the destruction of the timeship.

    and that counters what i asked...how?
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    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • farmallmfarmallm Member Posts: 4,630 Arc User
    It reset after it blew up. As it showed him working on it. So they could still have the records from his work to go by. Even today we do things like this. Use old records and build it.
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  • lordinsanelordinsane Member Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    ANNORAX: You can't imagine the burden of memory that I carry. Thousands of worlds, billions of lives, gone, brought back, gone again. I try to rationalise the loss. They're not really being destroyed, because they never existed. Sometimes I can almost convince myself.

    so tell me...if the only way to restore something erased by the timeship is to destroy the timeship, how could the above statement have been made?
    Annorax might have been referring to secondary effects. Things directly hit by the timeweapon might not be restorable without subjecting the weapon itself to the effect, but as shown by the two-parter, sometimes worlds and things could be 'destroyed' by the resulting changes in the timeline from using the weapon on something else, and after another removal be brought back (that was the point of Annorax' campaign, after all, to try to bring back the Imperium).
    Post edited by lordinsane on
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Arc User
    At least Cryptic had enough sense to realize in "Time in a Bottle" that the Krenim are in no shape to be building something like that on their own...
  • oldravenman3025oldravenman3025 Member Posts: 1,892 Arc User
    At least Cryptic had enough sense to realize in "Time in a Bottle" that the Krenim are in no shape to be building something like that on their own...



    Agreed. I'm glad to see that it won't be a complete asspull.

  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,983 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    farmallm wrote: »

    ANNORAX: You can't imagine the burden of memory that I carry. Thousands of worlds, billions of lives, gone, brought back, gone again. I try to rationalise the loss. They're not really being destroyed, because they never existed. Sometimes I can almost convince myself.

    so tell me...if the only way to restore something erased by the timeship is to destroy the timeship, how could the above statement have been made?

    It was made prior to the destruction of said timeship. No timeship, nothing to trim the timeline, no alterations.

    Its timetravel mechanics 101: remove the time machine by timetravel and the timetravel narrative never happens (see. Isaac Asimov's End to Eternity). Its going to be pretty awkward though if Cryptic takes the same route this season (what the hell about our fleet holding!)
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