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Community STF Boot Camp viable resource?

rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 59,174 Community Moderator
I'm honestly getting tired of the back and forth on the subject of Advanced STF shtako flinging. We've had good arguments on both sides, and some totally insane, and frankly stupid, arguments.

I'd like to keep this clean and ON TOPIC of the viability of stting up something similar to the Community driven PvP Boot Camp that came up maybe a couple years ago now?

The goal of this would be to provide a new resource for less experienced players. Not show off or discriminate.
So... if you guys think something like this is worth trying... cast your vote, and provide suggestions.

Not saying I'd be in charge if this actually starts up because of RL issues, but at least I'm proposing the idea of this.
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I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode

Community STF Boot Camp viable resource? 44 votes

Yes, a community driven event would be a good idea.
61% 27 votes
No, its not going to change a thing.
27% 12 votes
On the Fence, no idea.
11% 5 votes
«1

Comments

  • reginamala78reginamala78 Member Posts: 4,593 Arc User
    In concept a nice idea. In practice I'd think the people who would most benefit from such a thing aren't the kind using forums or classes in the first place. Would probably end up with more coaches trying to be helpful than actual enrollment.
  • gradiigradii Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    I've created a laid back, no drama channel for forming STF teams and teaching people how to beat them.

    Check out the new "Endgamers" channel, it's open to join. Just... Be Excellent to Each Other, and everything should be fine.

    "He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
    Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
    he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
    In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
    He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
    He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
    He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
    He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 59,174 Community Moderator
    In concept a nice idea. In practice I'd think the people who would most benefit from such a thing aren't the kind using forums or classes in the first place. Would probably end up with more coaches trying to be helpful than actual enrollment.

    I was trying to throw out an idea that might help others rather than resort to punishment for "Not performing". I'm open to hearing other ideas though. But the point is mostly awareness I guess. We gotta do something to help so that the e-peen crowd who get bent out of shape over a number or a T5U ship don't drown out the little guy just trying to get by on what they've got.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
    normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
    colored text = mod mode
  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    rattler2 wrote: »
    In concept a nice idea. In practice I'd think the people who would most benefit from such a thing aren't the kind using forums or classes in the first place. Would probably end up with more coaches trying to be helpful than actual enrollment.

    I was trying to throw out an idea that might help others rather than resort to punishment for "Not performing". I'm open to hearing other ideas though. But the point is mostly awareness I guess. We gotta do something to help so that the e-peen crowd who get bent out of shape over a number or a T5U ship don't drown out the little guy just trying to get by on what they've got.

    you have an imaginary epeen crowd. reginamala is correct more coaches than the enrolleees.

    There is currently a community resource for PvE piloting. That is if a player actually even searches for it or even wants to learn. You probably spent more time making this thread posting multiple posts than you would searching and learning those community resources or spend more time browsing the forums than learning from those community resources for PvE.

    All your assumption is based on there is no community resource and each player wishes to learn and improve beyond their current capabilities.
  • gavinrunebladegavinruneblade Member Posts: 3,894 Arc User
    If it got the promotion from cryptic that the pvp bootcamp got I think it could reach the right people.

    By that I mean a blog post and a listing on the in game calendar. The blog post, at a minimum gets sen by everyone logging into the game. They might not choose to read it, but at least it would be visible.

    If it's "just" a community thing or a forum thing, it'll have no impact at all.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Personally, I couldn't see it working. Though, the reason for that has nothing to do with the potential candidates that might be interested in partaking in some sort of STF Boot Camp, but rather it would be almost impossible not to run into oodles and oodles of drama in dealing with perspective coaches along with community acceptance.

    Some of the most intense forum PvP over the years has taken place between PvE folks and how to do things in PvE. What's a decent beginning build, what's a decent intermediate build, what's a decent advanced builds...how to tackle a specific STF, what's needed, what's not needed, what's viable, what's basically handicapping the group. Almost anything one could think to name, folks have argued about it.

    I'm just not sure how one would get around that. Even if one were to gather up somewhat like-minded coaches, then the whole endeavor could face potential mockery from others. Haven't there been several attempts by folks to do that previously? Which basically resulted in posts from some folks about the blind leading the blind and questioning those coaches ability to teach anybody anything? It can get downright nasty between PvE folks.

    It's one of the reasons over the years that I focused just on the basic underlying mechanics and avoided any advice like the plague. It's hard to argue that 1 + 1 is anything but 2, but if it was a case of which is better?

    1 + 1 = 2
    1 + 1 = 2

    Well, then all Hell would break lose as folks would go all Chevy vs. Ford in the discussion....and that's inevitably what happens with any of the strategy/build/advice discussions. So getting a group to do that...well...yeah, it might be mildly entertaining before the mods shut it down; but would there be any doubt of it being shut down?

    You'd need to have somebody with the charisma to break through all the potential disagreements...and...I don't see anybody around that could do that.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGytDsqkQY8
  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    If it got the promotion from cryptic that the pvp bootcamp got I think it could reach the right people.

    By that I mean a blog post and a listing on the in game calendar. The blog post, at a minimum gets sen by everyone logging into the game. They might not choose to read it, but at least it would be visible.

    If it's "just" a community thing or a forum thing, it'll have no impact at all.

    How sure are you it has no impact? Do you have official statistical basis that it the current community resources doesnt have impact nor made no impact at all? Or is this all because you say so?

    The first really hurdle of this problem is if a player is willing to learn at all. That is a huge hurdle. How do you filter those willing to learn and those that are not?

    Next, is the OP wants to address players who want to make a jump from normal to Advance rather than players content of doing Normal.

    Those are very specific subset of players, willing to learn, want to go from Normal to Advance.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 59,174 Community Moderator
    paxdawn wrote: »
    you have an imaginary epeen crowd.

    Have you seen the two rant threads? Some of the stuff I've seen in there is ridiculus. Everything from "You must have X DPS" said in an insulting manner to "Ban them if they have less than X DPS". And then someone shared a story about getting ditched all because he was in a T5U Excelsior. Never even gave him a chance to fire his guns. Just straight up left.

    I know not everyone is like this, but the ones who are are being rather vocal about it. I don't want to see people left behind when a DPS race causes another HP sponge counter. Leveling the playing field in some way would help, even if its improved tactics and awareness. Unless Cryptic is going to adress this, its up to us to do something about it. If they get involved too, even better. Until then... *shrug*
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    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
    normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
    colored text = mod mode
  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    paxdawn wrote: »
    you have an imaginary epeen crowd.

    Have you seen the two rant threads? Some of the stuff I've seen in there is ridiculus. Everything from "You must have X DPS" said in an insulting manner to "Ban them if they have less than X DPS". And then someone shared a story about getting ditched all because he was in a T5U Excelsior. Never even gave him a chance to fire his guns. Just straight up left.

    I know not everyone is like this, but the ones who are are being rather vocal about it. I don't want to see people left behind when a DPS race causes another HP sponge counter. Leveling the playing field in some way would help, even if its improved tactics and awareness. Unless Cryptic is going to adress this, its up to us to do something about it. If they get involved too, even better. Until then... *shrug*

    Those left behind are there by choice. Players already have the tools to improve right now. It is really a matter of choice to improve or not.

    Those who ditched a player on a t5u excelsior is a personal case, a unique case not all over the place. In fact, the strongest ships are still t5u.

    I read those thread. No one even supported that one player to ban the rest. You are trying to pin a single players opinion to a group which is not the case. Now with regards to DPS requirements. There are DPS requirements in each STF, and each difficulty. The question is if a player is capable of reaching those DPS requirements. ISA for one case has a different mission DPS requirement from a channel requirement. For ISA, the total HP is around 42M. If you want to achieve the optional, based on that 42M HP, each player would need 7-9k DPS. But that is with the optional which means that minimum requirement is even lower than that. One way or another that group still needs to kill the npc. However, if you base it on the median of a publicly available stat, the median of 17k+ unique accounts is more than 9k+ DPS.

    But You never addressed those willing to improve but jump straight up to your sensitivities as proven of what you quoted in me. I will end up with one of Virus reply on that thread.
    Folks have a tendency to make it about inflated egos...but I've generally seen it as a case of fragile egos. Cause it's usually not somebody with an inflated ego that's ticking off folks, it's usually just some average player asking stuff that ends up ticking off somebody with a fragile ego.
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Some of the most intense forum PvP over the years has taken place between PvE folks and how to do things in PvE. What's a decent beginning build, what's a decent intermediate build, what's a decent advanced builds...how to tackle a specific STF, what's needed, what's not needed, what's viable, what's basically handicapping the group. Almost anything one could think to name, folks have argued about it.

    And that's it. And really, as Virus and others have posted, it isn't the people that are finding the information useful that are bitching, it is all the professionals. And that's been my experience with feedback coming up on three years of doing that sort of thing.

    My favorite though, and yes I like this story, was the guy that got on my YouTube channel and kept trashing me for having a crappy PVP build. So I told him it was a PVE build video, there was no PVP in the video, and it was all just for starting out doing Borg STFs. No no, he countered. I had a crappy PVP build there, I shouldn't promote it, and he would OWN me in PVP.
    I wasn't sure how to respond to that. But it's typical. People just don't read, or watch, or both and just knee jerk comment. It WAS a pretty crappy build for PVP by the way. But the Borg didn't know that.

    EDIT: But really what this poll tells me is that the community thing won't work unless it gets a large push from off of these forums, as was suggested. Two reasons. Many people don't come here, but they see the launcher, etc. The see the STO on facebook. Etc. Typically I get far more response off of this forum, than on this forum. And finally, 80 views and only 12 votes. So. There's 68 people that weren't even interested enough in the outcome to click the mouse.

  • azurianstarazurianstar Member Posts: 6,985 Arc User
    You know STO is going in the wrong direction when it gets to the point that we need classes in "how to play" the game.

    Education in one thing, but if the information isn't getting to every player in STO, then things will not change. What ever happened to the days when it didn't matter what ship, what energy type, what build, or what class you played? Now we have to be using Scimitars with CritDx3/4 Anti-Proton builds, captained by Tacticals to do the content. This is why things are going in the wrong direction. The bar needs to be lowered where it was before (before NWS), where it was with the common player, not the Elite's.

    There is no future if people get driven off because they don't have X build with Y gear, and called idiots or newbs for merely wanting to play the game the way they want. So I really like to see not only the Devs, but the DPSers to reflect on this. We can still have the challenge, just not at the expense of other players. We need to rebuild the community, not promoting cliques'.



  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 59,174 Community Moderator
    paxdawn wrote: »
    You are trying to pin a single players opinion to a group which is not the case.

    The point I'm trying to make is that people like that exist, and are being QUITE vocal. I already said that I know not everyone is like that. It just pisses me off when people blast others without giving them a chance like that. And frankly, I'd rather see more people speak out against this kind of discriminatory behavior. We were all the new guy at one point or another! Epic level gear or no, we were down there trying to figure things out ourselves at some point. We can't all learn through osmosis. Drive or no drive, the opprotunity to learn needs to be provided without baseless accusations or discrimination from veterans. A small, vocal group gives the larger community a bad rap.

    I wanna see this stop before someone takes it to Westboro levels of stupidity. Only way I can see us doing that right now is through awareness.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
    normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
    colored text = mod mode
  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    The point I'm trying to make is that people like that exist, and are being QUITE vocal. I already said that I know not everyone is like that. It just pisses me off when people blast others without giving them a chance like that. And frankly, I'd rather see more people speak out against this kind of discriminatory behavior. We were all the new guy at one point or another! Epic level gear or no, we were down there trying to figure things out ourselves at some point. We can't all learn through osmosis. Drive or no drive, the opprotunity to learn needs to be provided without baseless accusations or discrimination from veterans. A small, vocal group gives the larger community a bad rap.

    I wanna see this stop before someone takes it to Westboro levels of stupidity. Only way I can see us doing that right now is through awareness.

    There are resources already for these players to learn. The question is if this player is willing to learn. It all start with one's reflection. No need to blame others for it nor you blaming others for it. Since a player improving starts with one's self.

    For example, your measure of success is gear. Personally for you that is a given fact. And even after everyone has told you many times in different thread that isnt true. In reality having epic gear isnt a minimum requirement to do the advance missions.

    I end again with virus quotation in one those threads
    When somebody asks how is a "newbie" (their word, not mine) supposed to be able to do Advanced...isn't the question that should be asked be, "why is a newbie trying to do Advanced?" (again, their word, not mine)
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 59,174 Community Moderator
    There's a difference between the resources existing, and knowing they exist. Not everyone comes on the forums, so they won't know to ask here. Not everyone knows about different channels, so they stick with Zone, which is full of some rather questionable stuff and general BS at times. Not everyone is going to be in a fleet, so they won't have that avenue to go down.

    We have to consider these variables and not just assume they know. If they still choose not to take advantage of resources that is on them. But making said resources more available... THAT would be a decent goal.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
    normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
    colored text = mod mode
  • dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    First off, I've generated two views, so perhaps it isn't 68 unique people that skipped out on the vote. And I'm abstaining from the vote because, honestly, while I like the concept and for it to succeed, I am just unsure that it's even something that can happen...

    The big part of my thought process is this: Even if we settle on a standard, say 7.5k DPS (or 5k & wad of CC) and the reinstitution of the 10% rule for ISA, and we train it, the first time someone blows the 10% rule or parses under 7.5k, I'm sure the chat windows / forums will never hear the end of it (much as we have the "bad STF experiences" thread, a new one would blow up to that epic of proportion easily)...

    I'd say that "pairing" those who seek the knowledge with "mentors" who would teach people how to run the missions would be a start, but then again, wouldn't others decide (insist) that perhaps these people should (could) be fleetmates or other channel types (DPS numbers, DPS metals, PESTF, etc.) instead of having a special program just for mentoring?

    To me, 90% of the "problem" is the ranting and raving of those who think they know what they're doing and their antics are what scares the players from trying to plan and/or listen to those who are willing to help...
    Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...

    To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    There's a difference between the resources existing, and knowing they exist. Not everyone comes on the forums, so they won't know to ask here. Not everyone knows about different channels, so they stick with Zone, which is full of some rather questionable stuff and general BS at times. Not everyone is going to be in a fleet, so they won't have that avenue to go down.

    We have to consider these variables and not just assume they know. If they still choose not to take advantage of resources that is on them. But making said resources more available... THAT would be a decent goal.

    More available to public is different from your OP or your poll. If your aim is making available to everyone were the case, the poll should be the current community driven resources be marketed by cryptic or not?

    Because there is already community driven resource to help players to do advance STF.

  • cidjackcidjack Member Posts: 2,017 Arc User
    Have Xtern1ty run it, he keeps posting about a PVP bootcamp.
    Armada: Multiplying fleet projects in need of dilithium by 13."
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  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,708 Arc User
    I'm in the middle here. On one end it'd be useful as an additional teaching method, but on the other end I'm not sure if it will have a significant impact.

    Often basic problems are found at the basis of poor performance in STF. Things like no usage of chat, sub par builds, auto fire weapons? , lack of English language skills and so forth. While a PVE can alleviate one of the problems, which is lack of knowledge on best strategy for particular maps, it won't be a magic bullet.

    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    i am on the fence as far as the poll goes, the problem we have these days is that the community was segregated by cryptic a while back, players in camps, newbiews, average players, pros with respect, nostalgic players, elitists and so on. the most typical of these are players who refuse to work or communicate with anyone on game so while it maybe an idea to offer the resources and collective knowledge of time on the game, its a matter of how many want that information or if they even care to notice.

    will it work? no idea.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,708 Arc User
    Instead of a boot camp, would a spectator mode be the solution to the problem? A player could observer the strategies without interfering in the game play. Other than the viewing pleasure there would be no reward off course.
    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
  • tarastheslayertarastheslayer Member Posts: 1,541 Bug Hunter
    cidjack wrote: »
    Have Xtern1ty run it, he keeps posting about a PVP bootcamp.

    Oh god no, that wouldn't end well.

    To the OP, this is a good idea, however the problem is that the average player doesn't want to go through the grief involved when it comes to the costs of getting even remotely geared up well enough to make themselves useful, which I can't blame them for it.

    If this was Pre-Delta Rising I'd say your only problem would have been getting people to listen, communicate and learn to play as a team, which you might have had some success with. Post-DR, not a chance, hell even the community channels are chock-full of people who can't do any of the missions right and never talk to anyone except to get into the private queue in the first place.

    Not to say I'm trying to stomp on your idea OP because under normal conditions, those being well made MMO's that don't segregate people quite like they do here, your idea would work wonders most likely 'cause that is how a lot of communities have done it but I just think trying it here is doomed to failure especially as there used to be channels for this that ended up closing :(
    Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
    I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    questerius wrote: »
    Instead of a boot camp, would a spectator mode be the solution to the problem? A player could observer the strategies without interfering in the game play. Other than the viewing pleasure there would be no reward off course.

    observation may help but only direct experience is deciding factor. its like playing jumps on quake 2 with a tiny ramp and a 4 box high jump. you see others bunny hop to it by observation but you try to do it and you fail, because you lack the experience in how to bunny hop and correctly and thus you dont make any further progress. even learning resources can only tell you so much, the only way you will figure it out is by learning how to bunny hop correctly and when, where and timing of the whole thing. which direction you need... so on.

    its the same for sto in a sense, you can only learn so much from watch others, but only direct experience can help you learn to be better.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    To the OP, this is a good idea, however the problem is that the average player doesn't want to go through the grief involved when it comes to the costs of getting even remotely geared up well enough to make themselves useful, which I can't blame them for it.(

    The average player can easily get the gear advance requirements. The minimum requirements for advance difficulty is your random common trash. However, an average player have access better than your random common trash. this means mission gear rewards, rep rewards done in Normal difficulty STF. Even if you limit yourself to mission gear rewards that is more than enough for an average player to do advance STFs.

    By the time you get your "personal perceived necessary" gears, those gears are beyond advance level queues requirement already. However, gear excuse is a very lousy excuse. If you got no time, pay for zen, if you got time and refuse to pay, grind.



  • f9thretxcf9thretxc Member Posts: 505 Arc User
    I love this idea. Heck, I'm always trying to improve my STF runs, and if some one wants to throw me some tips on flying, I'm always all ears.

    I can burst DPS real well on most of my toons, but man, do I lack in sustained at times. across the ones I have, I probably average between 6- 12 DPS. 9note that is 20+ toons, some not geared out yet.) The mains I play are closer to 10k, but even with macros, trying to control my ship location, being aware of buffs and cooldowns for myself, I just can't seem to get higher than that. I know it's something I'm missing, heck I even have mk14 sets that I trade between them all.

    So yeah, If anyone does this, hit me up @F9thRet in game, I'm always wanting to learn more.

    Except for today, today is PC maintenance, and the dreaded upgrade to Tech win 10 10130. <sigh> if the ISO ever finishes downloading.
    My mother always told me to walk away from a fight, The Marines taught me how.
  • tarastheslayertarastheslayer Member Posts: 1,541 Bug Hunter
    paxdawn wrote: »
    The average player can easily get the gear advance requirements. The minimum requirements for advance difficulty is your random common trash. However, an average player have access better than your random common trash. this means mission gear rewards, rep rewards done in Normal difficulty STF. Even if you limit yourself to mission gear rewards that is more than enough for an average player to do advance STFs.

    By the time you get your "personal perceived necessary" gears, those gears are beyond advance level queues requirement already. However, gear excuse is a very lousy excuse. If you got no time, pay for zen, if you got time and refuse to pay, grind.

    If we were talking about players that knew their stuff that would be okay, but we're not. New players far more often than not wouldn't be able to pull that off, I mean the number of times over the years I've had to explain to people why they aren't doing well even though they have the "same build as the guy who did well". My point being, though maybe I wasn't clear, is that you kinda have to overcompensate the gear for newer folks for them to contribute until they learn.

    This has been a thing since MMO's first happened, the only difference in this case is the method of acquisition next to the knowledge. No amount of gear will undo lack of knowledge but at least with an overcompensated set-up that works they can begin to learn while contributing, whereas if you have the knowledge but not the gear you'll still do well. New players inevitably lack the knowledge which is what this thread is rightly about. The reason I focus on gear though is that, a lot of new folks I talked to (and there's been a lot) who later stopped playing since DR basically said how gear grind is too much, and if they're feeling it that early on then truthfully there's something wrong with the game.
    Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
    I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    paxdawn wrote: »
    To the OP, this is a good idea, however the problem is that the average player doesn't want to go through the grief involved when it comes to the costs of getting even remotely geared up well enough to make themselves useful, which I can't blame them for it.(

    The average player can easily get the gear advance requirements. The minimum requirements for advance difficulty is your random common trash. However, an average player have access better than your random common trash. this means mission gear rewards, rep rewards done in Normal difficulty STF. Even if you limit yourself to mission gear rewards that is more than enough for an average player to do advance STFs.

    By the time you get your "personal perceived necessary" gears, those gears are beyond advance level queues requirement already. However, gear excuse is a very lousy excuse. If you got no time, pay for zen, if you got time and refuse to pay, grind.

    The need ABC gear is one of the common urban myths out there regarding the queues. It gets into the curious mix of ability, gear, and knowledge...with how much overall piloting (the player) will affect any gains from gear.

    If the gear available before Delta Rising was allowing folks to do 10+ times the DPS required in Advanced with Delta Rising, then nothing that was added with Delta Rising is required to do Advanced with Delta Rising. Folks that were "geared enough" to do the Elites before Delta Rising, are going to be "geared enough" to do Advanced with Delta Rising - likely being in the same place of being overgeared now as they were then.

    If somebody needs some FT6 ship fully decked out in G14 gear to be able to do that 6-9k DPS, then there are just some fundamental issues that has nothing to do with the gearing. Sure, tinfoil hat time suggests that all part of Cryptic's plan and how they develop (sell garbage to folks that don't know how to use it while not teaching them how to use it so they keep buying more and more); but in the end the gearing requirements simply aren't that high for a player that would be tackling Advanced as an Advanced player. An Elite player hitting up Advanced, could drop their level of gearing that much further. While the Normal (if even at a Normal level) player, is likely waiting for Cryptic to add even more stuff so that they might one day finally get somewhere close to being ready.

    Does that sound elitist? Perhaps even cruel? Or is it just blunt? By the time one takes into account things like pathing through the instance, piloting to maintain arcs and positioning, familiarity and efficiency with abilities, working subsystem power settings, and all those other little things that are the player and not the ship...the effectiveness of a gear upgrade can vary by 100% or more with the results.

    Take a fictitious Beam build that does 15k if flown perfectly (impossible) for example.

    Player A spends 90% of the instance engaged. So the 15k drops to 13.5k DPS.
    Player B spends 60% of the instance engaged. So the 15k drops to 9.0k DPS.

    Player A averages a range of 5km. So the 13.5k drops to 11340 DPS.
    Player B averages a range of 9km. So the 9.0k drops to 6120 DPS.

    Player A averages 115 Weapon Power. So the 11350 drops to 10442 DPS.
    Player B averages 80 Weapon Power. So the 6120 drops to 3917 DPS.

    That's before getting into any efficiency with the use of Captain/BOFF/clicky abilities.
    That's before getting into working a facing instead of plinking shields on multiple facings.
    Etc, etc, etc...

    Increase Player A's engagement to 95% and drop Player B's to 35%, eh?
    Move Player A to 4km average and Player B to <10k, eh?
    Have Player A rocking the 125 with Player B down at 45, eh?

    Then work in all the other player/in-chair affects.

    And Hell, that's before getting into it being a team thing...buffs/debuffs/support/damage from the other players.

    The difference in DPS with the same build can be staggering.

    But hey, since this part of the discussion was about needed gear upgrades, let's take a look at applying the same upgrades to both players/ships. We'll actually calculate the numbers for the example after the Etc, etc, etc up there and apply the upgrades there. Say it's a big batch of upgrades, giving a 25% increase. We'll just look at the first three things there (engagement percent, average range penalty, and weapon power).

    Player A: 15000 * 0.95 = 14250 * 0.88 = (12540 / 2.5) * 2.5 = 12540 * 1.25 = 15675
    Player B: 15000 * 0.35 = 5250 * 0.64 = (3360 / 2.5) * 0.9 = 3024 * 1.25 = 3780

    Player A went from 12540 to 15675, gaining 3135 DPS from the upgrades.
    Player B went from 3024 to 3780, gaining 756 DPS from the upgrades.

    3135 vs 756 for the same upgrades...cause the underlying damage mechanics are all percentage based, they don't simply provide flat upgrades.

    But those are bad numbers...because it's not taking into account ability efficiency, facings, and all those other things. Basically, Player B wished they were getting that much out of the upgrades but the sad truth is they're not getting anywhere near that.

    It's part of why two players can do the same upgrades, one will be happy and one will complain out the wahzoo about how expensive it was for so little gain...it's why some players insist upon the need to keep upgrading everything, so that at some point they might eventually reach the point where they just might, maybe, perhaps, reach some minimal content DPS requirement.

    It's not elitism. It's not cruel. It's just kind of blunt. The folks having an issue with it have fragile ego issues, imho. They've got problems accepting that it's them...have to find ways to scapegoat and blame other things.

    Me? I pretty much knew from the start that I'm a goofball...that I'm pretty bad at the game, that I don't put much effort into things, etc, etc, etc...that I'd never be up there with some of those folks out there even if I tried to apply myself.

    Acceptance...it goes a long way toward having more fun in the game, imho. Man, if the thresholds for things weren't set so low, heh, I'd have been screwed - but this is a game for extremely casual players, and so I was able to muddle through a bunch of things.

    * * * * *

    I found the link to the Maelwys spreadsheets Bareel mentioned in a cached copy of a page from the old forums via a Google search, figured I'd link them here as well. Both links point to the same spreadsheet, they just point to the different worksheets in the spreadsheet.

    Beams: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tznTTgfDTyTX136HHNhOGsSyPqwKn_8mHxEHbORqfOs/edit?pli=1#gid=1
    Cannons: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tznTTgfDTyTX136HHNhOGsSyPqwKn_8mHxEHbORqfOs/edit?pli=1#gid=0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmXumtgwtak
  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    If we were talking about players that knew their stuff that would be okay, but we're not. New players far more often than not wouldn't be able to pull that off, I mean the number of times over the years I've had to explain to people why they aren't doing well even though they have the "same build as the guy who did well". My point being, though maybe I wasn't clear, is that you kinda have to overcompensate the gear for newer folks for them to contribute until they learn.

    This has been a thing since MMO's first happened, the only difference in this case is the method of acquisition next to the knowledge. No amount of gear will undo lack of knowledge but at least with an overcompensated set-up that works they can begin to learn while contributing, whereas if you have the knowledge but not the gear you'll still do well. New players inevitably lack the knowledge which is what this thread is rightly about. The reason I focus on gear though is that, a lot of new folks I talked to (and there's been a lot) who later stopped playing since DR basically said how gear grind is too much, and if they're feeling it that early on then truthfully there's something wrong with the game.

    You can read VD's explanation above or I repeat the quote from VD from a different thread:
    When somebody asks how is a "newbie" (their word, not mine) supposed to be able to do Advanced...isn't the question that should be asked be, "why is a newbie trying to do Advanced?" (again, their word, not mine)

    Does your New player sentiments represent the sentiments of all or majority of the new players? That is if there was even a scientific survey in the past 30 days of new players sentiments. otherwise whatever you just said is your personal sentiment.

    Once a new player is willing to learn and go to advance, they dont need to overcompensate for gears. Besides a new player with overcompensated gears wont be able to advance on whatever form if they dont have the knowledge of how to read objectives in advance and implement them not unless they are leeching.
  • reginamala78reginamala78 Member Posts: 4,593 Arc User
    Someone tries a helpful idea, effective or not, and the conversation turns hostile in 4 posts. These forums.....

    Also, Virus, why are you attaching videos to what seems like every post you do has a video attachment these days? Passive protest against the Vanilla in-line nonsense or something? Just curious.
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    dareau wrote: »
    First off, I've generated two views, so perhaps it isn't 68 unique people that skipped out on the vote. And I'm abstaining from the vote because, honestly, while I like the concept and for it to succeed, I am just unsure that it's even something that can happen...

    The big part of my thought process is this: Even if we settle on a standard, say 7.5k DPS (or 5k & wad of CC) and the reinstitution of the 10% rule for ISA, and we train it, the first time someone blows the 10% rule or parses under 7.5k, I'm sure the chat windows / forums will never hear the end of it (much as we have the "bad STF experiences" thread, a new one would blow up to that epic of proportion easily)...

    I'd say that "pairing" those who seek the knowledge with "mentors" who would teach people how to run the missions would be a start, but then again, wouldn't others decide (insist) that perhaps these people should (could) be fleetmates or other channel types (DPS numbers, DPS metals, PESTF, etc.) instead of having a special program just for mentoring?

    To me, 90% of the "problem" is the ranting and raving of those who think they know what they're doing and their antics are what scares the players from trying to plan and/or listen to those who are willing to help...


    DPS numbers are far too problematic to actually be of use. Number one, the only DPS number chiefly quoted is personal ISA DPS, which is useless outside ISA, and too variable inside ISA depending on what the team brings to the table. There are also more STFs than ISA. Two, in ISA itself, the actual DPS requirement changes based on what you're doing. Stopping the nanites from reaching the transformer has a near zero DPS requirement with enough CC that gets applied well, but ignoring them completely means enough DPS on the transformer to get it down before they get there, but that can't be applied until all the generators are dead, so the DPS needed changes based on how far apart they are killed and how much CC is available.

    Getting the timer optional is different, but a group that can shut the Tac cube's shields down with drains is going to have a different DPS requirement than any other group that has to simply burn it down the old fashioned way. Cross healing plays a role here too, whether you are healing the person with the aggro/taking lots of damage or just letting them die (hint: they usually have aggro as a result of doing the most DPS.)

    How to deal with various tricks the NPCs throw at you is also a good thing to teach. It can be reflexive to hit a shield heal when you see your shields dropping to nothing, but in a Borg STF, you need to wait till that blue beam isn't firing on you any longer, and make sure you don't have the debuff from a cube that requires hazard emitters too.

    If I were putting this together, I would say it needs to be focused squarely on tactics and teamwork and situational awareness, not training people to go through motions or hit DPS target numbers but training people to work as a team and do what is necessary, even if it means sacrificing those silly DPS numbers to do it.

    But you are right, people are going to get upset at mistakes, and that also needs to be trained, that people make mistakes and if you blow up at them, you have plenty to learn yourself. Most people learn by first making mistakes. If someone blows up at them, they tend to learn that their mistake was playing with that person.
  • tarastheslayertarastheslayer Member Posts: 1,541 Bug Hunter
    edited June 2015
    paxdawn wrote: »
    Does your New player sentiments represent the sentiments of all or majority of the new players? That is if there was even a scientific survey in the past 30 days of new players sentiments. otherwise whatever you just said is your personal sentiment.

    Once a new player is willing to learn and go to advance, they dont need to overcompensate for gears. Besides a new player with overcompensated gears wont be able to advance on whatever form if they dont have the knowledge of how to read objectives in advance and implement them not unless they are leeching.

    Actually that load of writing Virus has done basically enforces what I was saying, that give two people the same build with one not knowing how to use it and that person is stuffed, the problem is just mitigated by use of better gear and not solved.

    And actually I got contacted, through one medium or another, by around 70-80 people regarding that subject. Don't get me wrong the grind wasn't the only issue they cited for the game being unattractive to them, but it was the main reason. Overall three people I spoke to actually continued playing, that's pretty sad considering this ought to be one of the better games around. The idea you need all or a majority of who joined is a stats fallacy, especially as something as simple as this.

    Also, you have to understand that you're last paragraph just agreed with me so why are you even arguing?
    Reduced to save space

    This guy gets it.
    Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
    I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
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