I probably post it for nothing, because those who don't do it properly probably don't read the forum. I tried not once, not twice, but 6 times to do Gateway to Gre'thor lately, the six time where a fail, with people living, because some noob was not following the strategy! I and/or others, even tried to send in the chat what to do, but some people seem to not even read it! Personally, I thing I will not even try that one again in advance, I lost enough time. It will take me more time to get the stuff because I will need to buy the datacores with marks, but so what, I will not loosing more time with people that just don't want to learn to do it properly, but try to do it anyway. It's frustrating to see that so many players don't even try to learn before going head down in the more difficult levels.
Maybe there should be a minimum requirement implemented in the game mechanic to limit who can do it in advance, other than being level 50. The right equipment should be a relatively easy start, giving points. At least, it will prevent peoples with common and uncommon and/or low MK stuff to do it. Require to at least have done it once in normal queue, even if in normal mistake can be recover more easily and people don't really need to know the strategy. For the rest, I don't know, It would not be easy to evaluate skill level or knowledge of the strategy. Maybe there should be some warning when someone put himself in the advance queue that they should be well equipped and know the strategy. Maybe it would require the devs to take the players by the hand and clearly indicate the strategy in the PvE, but even than, I sure that some will not follow it.
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so calm down a bit mate as soon you won't be able to fail them and still get the rewards you get now with maybe some added extras. ☺
I am optimistic as well. Players who have not yet learned any sort of rules are not in a position anymore to disrupt the game play of those who do. They will cost a few optional rewards in worst case but that’s about it.
From now on we won't look at fails if we mess up stuff, we will rather look at better rewards waiting for us if we perform well.
With these advanced PvE changes a negative atmosphere will change to a more positive one.
I like this and hope the news spread fast and people queue up by the dozen.
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Normals teach you that your DPS is sufficient to just faceroll FAW spam to meet all objectives.
Rescue queues, like BD and ANR, are the poster boys for this. "Learn it in normal noobs!" the l33t cry. They did. They learned they can burn down all the enemies with time to spare.
"Read the forums noob!" Would be met with "There are forums?" The people reading, and especially posting, here are the smallest sliver of the community and not likely the ones you are raging about. Remember, Cryptic wants nothing to do with something that isn't Twitter, FaceBook, or Reddit, and uses the forums to keep us curmudgeonly grognards corralled in one convenient place.
But anyway...just some thoughts:
Couldn't the same thing be said without having to refer to anybody as a noob? If the goal is try to help folks, offering them insults helps help them how? It's just one of those things...it's just not very helpful.
But Hell, beyond that, they were not following the "strategy"...just what strategy would that be? Cause there are all sorts of strategies for GtGA. Did you mean to say that they were not familiar with the objectives for the queue?
But Hell, beyond that, unless Cryptic massively changed something in the past three weeks...just how did a single player cause a fail in GtGA? I mean, you know, Hell, even for failing an Optional - just one player - er...well...yeah, this thread's not off to much of a start.
And well, reading the forums - there's so much garbage here, it's pretty easy to see why somebody would avoid the forums.
Unfortunately, some folks have turned off their chat because of folks ranting and raving in chat. It's just a put off to them, which means there is that loss of potential helpful communication (if the communication was helpful in the first place, "Hey noob!" isn't very helpful).
Beyond that though, Hell, it's an international game - one server - all sorts of languages. So even if they did have chat open, it doesn't mean they had a clue what was being said. It's just something to keep in mind there.
Not to be rude or anything, but it comes off a bit...humorous...to see a complaint about folks not "learning" - while saying that you'll have to do the 100:1 conversion of Marks to E-Marks to get them. You can get two Datacores a day from Kobali Prime...so any of the Marks you get you can use along with the E-Marks, rather than having to convert them and then need even more. Just saying...you know...and all...
Hrmm, "your" right equipment might not necessarily be the right equipment. It doesn't really require all that much in the way of gear. This is one of those misinformation things that folks tend to spread because they're not very good at the game or simply don't know what they're talking about.
Definitely think at this point you're talking more about knowing the objectives than knowing a particular strategy to do things...cause strategies can easily vary from difficulty to difficulty as well as from group to group. But yeah, it's one of the things that one would think would normally go without saying...somebody doing Advanced should have Advanced knowledge of the queue, right? They should have Advanced knowledge of the map. They should have Advanced knowledge of the objectives. They should have all those little Advanced knowledge things going for them...it being Advanced and all.
No idea how Cryptic could go about "testing" that sort of thing. Somebody could be carried through 9001 runs on Normal and have no clue about any of it...so that wouldn't prepare them to hit up Advanced.
It's a tricky one...something that's been discussed for years - cause it's nothing new with any of the newer queues.
The funny thing about that...well, it says Advanced, right? That's pretty much the warning right there.
Normal
Advanced
Elite
And it gets ignored.
You can't help those that ignore that.
And for those that perhaps you could help, well, you can't help them by calling them noobs...
edit: I think I'm going to drop a video in every post I do now...
300k dps won't do anything for you when you just failed a mandatory "optional" objective because you had no idea wth you're doing.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
But the strategy in normal is different than the one you need in advanced in many cases. So this learn in normal doesn't work because you're learning the wrong thing.
How does that solve the problem completely? Would it potentially solve their problem? Well, it would be more a case of trading one set of problems for another. They'd have to decide which set of problems was more tolerable or possibly even consider whether either set was tolerable...perhaps deciding instead just to walk away.
I have no problem trying to tell people what to do and help them learn. I have problem with people that just don't even read the chat, to see that someone try to tell them how to do it properly.
For the first time today I did 3 infected normals. Since so many people on here complain about us newbies, I watched some videos beforehand. Well, most of the normal was the same except 2 cubes weren't there and so I had a harder time figuring out how high to go. But now here's the thing. In 2 of them, there were guys with big DPS and they just blasted things so fast etc that any newb isn't going to learn anything or see how it "should" be done. It was majorly frustrating cause I really wanted to be able to learn how to do it but they were over so fast I learned nothing except to blast everything and rush to the next part.
So while the "vets" of the game complain about us newb, I'm going to complain about the vets. The borg red alerts were a joke for me today. I could barely get beams on anything before some uber dps guys blasted things to pieces. So how about you super high DPS guys sticking to advanced and elite queues. Works both ways people.
Technically, nothing forces people to learn the objectives. There's not really a forced thing going on...there are just folks that don't want to bother learning them. You can't force them to learn them...nothing can. They either want to, and the info is there for them if they do - or - they don't want to, and that's that.
So...folks doing higher DPS in ISN causes you to be unable to learn what the objectives in ISN are? Er...how?
It tells you that...
You need to defeat the initial patrol.
You need to destroy the Gateway.
You need to destroy the Transformers to destroy the Gateway.
You need to destroy the Generators to destroy the Transformers.
Destroying a Generator causes the Nanites to spawn.
You need to prevent the Nanites from reaching the Transformers and healing them.
You need to destroy all the Borg on the map.
Now, something it doesn't tell you directly is something that requires just a wee bit of thought.
There are four Generators. Destroying a Generator causes the Nanites to spawn. Need to prevent the Nanites from getting to the Transformer before the Transformer is destroyed. So...if the Generators are destroyed near the same time, then the group will not have to worry about taking out the remaining Generators instead of just taking out the Transformer before the Nanites get there (or possibly slowing the Nanites down so it takes longer for them to get there). It's a simple observation...which led to that ol' 10% rule some folks followed, dropping the Generators down to around 10% to drop them near the same time - voila.
So, beyond that, what else really is there to it? How does somebody with higher DPS prevent anybody from learning any of that - when none of that has anything to do with what anybody's doing - it's stuff that's literally told to the players or something that takes two seconds to realize.
Basically, trying to blame somebody doing higher DPS as the reason that somebody wouldn't know what the objectives in Infected Space are...is just a big ol' steaming pile of TRIBBLE. It was a lame excuse years ago - it's a lame excuse now.
Sorry, I knew what should be done by prepping ahead of time outside of the game. Regardless, everything was getting destroyed so fast there was no time to actually "see" what the progression was. I went high to take out the spheres and by the time they were done, and I was working my way down, the high DPS guys had already taken out the generators and transformers, No one that's new is going to even see that there was a proper sequence to it.
It's nice to see you outline the sequence and to be nice and condescending. But how exactly is someone going into that new supposed to know that? There's no tutorial, there's no briefing that tells you the specifics. Nada. The reality is that people need to fail in there. They need to see what happens when you destroy the generators and the nanites show up. All you old timers want us to stay out of advanced and learn in normal. But if the normal is supposed to be our training ground for advanced, then having long term high DPS guys come in there and do it right means we don't learn a damn thing.
The problem with old timers like you is that you've played the game so long you just take everything for granted and view it through your experienced eyes. I'm barely a month old in this game and am giving you a newbies perspective.
Except that it tells the new player exactly what the progression is. One doesn't have to watch anybody do anything to know what has to be done in the queue. I mean, literally, everything outside of the trying to take out the Generators as close together as possible...it literally tells you.
Those officer and ops reports? Those flyouts on the side. The objectives. Everything I posted there in that previous post...is...right there. Open them up, read them, and you're good to go. Run through one or two to see that the Nanites spawn with the first Generator dropping...and that's that.
That's why it's such a garbage excuse to try to blame somebody doing high DPS for getting in the way of learning it. Cause it's all there in the dialogue windows, the objectives window, and the flyouts.
That's why folks get so frustrated when folks make this kind of garbage excuse...it's literally right there...but players aren't bothering to read any of it while coming to the forums to complain nothing is there.
They're like the folks that complain when they try to push the door open when it's clearly labeled as pull...it's a garbage complaint.
It's not the objectives that are the issue, it's the strategy. Folks with around 5k DPS aren't able to to do enough DPS to usually make up for blowing up a generator early since the generators are weak, the cube is a big hit point thingee, but 15+k DPS folks can overcome blowing up that generator before the cube or early. The old strategy of blowing up the cube, then taking generators down to 10% health, then simultaneously blowing all 4 generators up before pouncing on the transformer are lost when so may youtube videos show folks with higher DPS ignoring that strategy because they can. The lower DPS player probably has no idea that what he/ she is going to try to mimic is going to cause a failure. Some of them fail to realize why it failed. They did what some high DPS player did, so what they did should be right, not wrong? Sadly, with a mixed set of DPS in the team, some higher DPS players often don't realize until it's too late that the remaining members of the team may not have enough DPS to cover for the higher DPS player(s) blowing up generators early, a tactic the higher DPS players already accomplished. Higher DPS folks blame the lower DPS folks as the problem, and vice versa.
Failure to recognize what the team is capable of before reaching the first transformer in ISA and adjusting strategy, roles, placement, etc. in accordance with the teams capabilities is the real issue that causes so much frustration.
I've tried to talk to folks in 10k DPS channel runs about why they did what they did that caused failures, and they nearly all had the attitude that the remaining teammates were the ones that messed up. Maybe we all need to look at ourselves in the mirror every now and then, doing some sort of self debrief to see what ourselves could do better is in order?
Fun is not allowed in MMOs, only efficiency!
But that's the thing, yeah? How does ISA start? That initial encounter there - that initial patrol that has to be taken out before the shields drop over the Transformers, right? The higher DPS person, if they've got any experience to go with that, should have a feel for how long that encounter will take with different groups of players, yeah? So if it takes longer - they'd need to adjust what they're doing, right? If it's wham, bam, done - they'd probably feel secure in proceeding as per the norm for them, no? That's definitely something that could be laid at their feet - something they should have developed an eye for on their way to their higher DPS, yep?
Course, sometimes that initial engagement can give a false impression of the group - as heading over to the Transformer turns into the situation of chasing butterflies, where 2-3 folks are off chasing down the spawned Borg instead of focusing the Transformer. Gets into one of those situations where there was more than enough DPS, but the DPS simply wasn't applied. But this of course gets back into simply not knowing the objectives.
It's not an either or sort of thing, in the least. It's more like a laundry list of all sorts of things that could potentially go wrong.
Somebody watching a video from folks that are supposed to be some of the best players in the game and thinking they can charge on in doing the same...that's not the fault of the players that did the video...that's a delusion of the person that watched it. They've been playing the game, yeah? They should have some concept of their performance while they've been playing and see that it's not just what's done in the videos, yeah?
Which is what gets into so many of the excuses made - they're mainly about shifting blame rather than taking any personal responsibility...
...and it's not just the low DPS player, the player that has no clue about the objectives, or any of that. Like I started out the reply to what you said about the Gens, it's something that some of the higher low DPS folks tend to do. They'll go in guns blazing and then blame the others for a potential failure.
It's just as annoying, if not more annoying, seeing somebody do that...cause having worked to the point they apparently have, they should know a bit better, right? Yet, they're going to shift the blame? Nah, if they paid attention to what was going on - saw how things went with that first encounter, saw where folks were - how many times have they gotten over to the Trans and are ready to go but they're the only one there...? Yeah, they can wait for folks to get there.
Etc, etc, etc...all the possible things that somebody else might do wrong, doesn't affect somebody knowing what the objectives are though - and - that's what my reply was in regard to...folks trying to shift the blame. It's garbage, whether it's the guy making the excuse he doesn't know what to do because somebody was blowing things up (when what the objectives are - is there for their perusal) or it's the guy blaming the lower DPS folks cause he decided to go Rambo on the first Generator without having the Rambo to take out the other three Generators at the same time...it's folks trying to shift blame, and it's just garbage.
And er, as for not knowing why it failed...that's another thing that's wrong. Cause it has both the text about it as well as the objectives window changing to show why it failed there...the Nanites got within range of the Transformer. It tells them...twice...
Fun is subjective.
Sure do. Back before the queue revamp most recently, it wasn't quite the e-peen contest it is now.
What would be most excellent would be if the OP would do something more productive than screeching about learning queue strategies, and point out exactly where in this game one would learn them. If there's some uber-secret area for learning queue strategies, I haven't found it yet.
Even asking for clarification at the start of a new queue isn't going to bring much knowledge, it took me asking multiple times what the best way of going about the normal GtG was before anyone actually answered. I attribute that to people simply shutting off their chat to avoid being bombarded with someone's temper tantrums or verbal diarrhea, BTDT.
So please, oh wise advanced players, where should us normie noobs turn to in-game to learn strategies for the advanced queues? The normal queues aren't it.
Not sure what to do in an Advanced queue? Did you know this game has forums where folks can ask questions about things that they're not sure about? Oh wait, you thought the forums were just for posting garbage like you did there? Nah, you can use them to ask questions too...it's kind of awesome!
Follow the herd, just don't follow the Scimitars, they tend to be captained by someone trying to use DPS channel tactics in a PUG, which rarely ends well. (Example, in ISA, if a Scim doesn't fly up to the cube, they are going to near-instantly pop generators, so be ready for the nanites.)
I agree with this. Generally speaking, following the way high-DPS players fly in ISA can cause unintentional failures for lower DPS players. High DPS players usually play through ISA to parse and get a better number, or practice getting a better number. The methods they use to get those numbers (popping the generators early/ignoring the cube, etc. to speed up the run) don't necessarily translate well for people doing 8k or so.
ISA PUGs can be so different to what DPS channel runs are like. Where a DPS channel group will take out the transformer first before the nanites reach it, it's a perfectly viable strategy for some PUGs to take out the nanites first. I've been on several PUGs that went this way the past two nights and they all succeeded.
The player may know the objectives but not the best way to accomplish them according to their capabilities. People will look at those videos, see how "good" those players are and try to emulate them. I'm fairly new to this game, so I remember well enough how I fell into the same trap. It's only after I failed when I realized what worked for more experienced better geared players wouldn't work for me. That's another reason why I don't like the removal of failures from advanced missions. Without an obvious failure, many players may not realize they are doing things wrong, but that's a whole different discussion.
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And this helps people in-game who don't know about the forums how? How about people who don't speak English, nor any of the foreign languages supported on the forums here? Rock, meet hard place. Add to that superiority complex attitudes on the forums (not you specifically) and you have people who lurk, but are too intimidated to bother posting. That actually happens across all forum types, why would it be any different here?
You completely missed my point there on hands-on learning availability. Maybe I was a little too sarcastic? Let me be clearer -- the failure of making sure there is adequate opportunities to learn Advanced & Elite queue strategies falls on the company more than the players, there should be a training ground somewhere for this stuff, yet there isn't. Also, the players ripping the uninitiated are also partly to blame. If you get ripped on enough, you're not going to leave your chat open long enough to get tips, or a website address.
thatcursedwolf, thanks for sticking your neck out there & giving a good tip. If anyone's lurking, they probably thank you for it.
See, that gets into the fun is subjective thing on so many levels.
I'm not a fan of the 10k folks with their quick 'n easy farming efficiency stuff...cause to me, that's not fun.
I'm not a fan of the 1k folks that want to hold people hostage in an Advanced for 30-45 minutes while they try to figure out stuff they should have learned within their first couple of Normal runs...cause to me, that's not fun.
I'm not a fan of the folks chasing the DPS dragon...cause to me, that's not fun.
I'm not a fan of the folks that want to ignore everything...cause to me, that's not fun.
Folks tend to go to extremes with their replies...get into very didactic thinking.
You can't have cherry pie a la mode sort of things...you can only have pie or ice cream...when obviously you can have pie and ice cream.
A fair question, how will they learn the strategies if you are going to gate them from trying the advanced queue repeatedly?
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