Especially, too, given how Bad Robot went out of their way to save the "prime universe." Not good enough for some fans, apparently.
Which would be true if they did, but they didn't. Everything pre-2009 in the prime universe is okay, but everything forward is now going to have to reflect the destruction of Romulus. If the show returns to the big screen, post nemesis, what will it look like? TOS. the reason that the Romulans were such a good foil and one of the reasons the Cardassians were later introduced, was to give dimension to a political universe of two super powers.
The Abrams timeline is minus Vulcan, how would that series look. It seems illogical for the 10,000 remaining Vulcans to allow any future dispensation for any Vulcans to leave the planet in the near future. It can't be risked. Everyone has to stay there to procreate.
We have a prime universe where Cardassia and Romulus are damaged or destroyed, the Klingons and Federation remain and in the other universe the Vulcans are home-bound for what would almost certainly be 50-100 years. We can have a show with all new stories and we can see the heightened role of smaller powers that can rise up to take over for the other powerhouses that were lost, but is there someone in the creative miasma today that has the storytelling ability to pull this off? And what will be decided of the remnants of our favorite and iconic peoples of the Star Trek universe?
I'm all for rebirth and Star Trek certainly did need to shed some baggage, but Vulcan and Romukus weren't Tattooine. They weren't one off worlds who's destruction would be without consequence. And this is the crux of the issue I have not just with the new story, but with the IP holders. A villain can have plenty of compelling reasons to chase someone across space and time without his home world being blown up and be can be bad and wreak havoc without blowing up another world. He could be a very bad-TRIBBLE villain and destroy someone's home world if the story was strong, the character compelling and the plot points could drive that home with sound reasons that have a resonance to the story. But here the villain was killed, the "heroes" warped away and Vulcan is forgotten about. It doesn't have a story impact anymore.
What I see in Abrams and his team is laziness, dressed in sizzle and pop, but without the steak. There's no real substance and I almost felt myself rooting for Nero to wipe the smug, wreck-less TRIBBLE off of the map. And here's my final issue- the IP. I'm not angry with Abrams, he knows how to put window dressing on a steaming pile of horse squeeze, and then sell it as cinematic gold. I'm not even frustrated with movie going audiences who should have higher expectations than this. I am severely disappointed that Paramount/CBS don't protect their IPs with greater care. I've heard complaints of all kinds from Star Wars fans about the acquisition of SW by Disney. But of all the IP holders to purchase that franchise, few zealously protect and cherish their IP properties the way that Disney does. With ST you have a split franchise agreement by two companies who would milk ST to its permanent death, without any foresight into the future.
I deeply believe that if either CBS or Paramount would agree to helm all of the rights and they would have some kind of executive who would exercise some oversight over the IP instead of turning the whole thing over to one person/production house, we might have had the same week story, but perhaps someone might have said "JJ you can't destroy two iconic worlds in this IP without something a lot more compelling than this".
I should have prefaced the whole comment that this is merely my own opinion. I may be WAY off course here, but it is what I think about the matter.
What can I say, yes they basically altered the trek timeline, and good job too, think, if they hadn't, then all the new trek movies would basically have been glitzy remakes of all the old trek movies. That would have probably pissed off more trek fans than what they have actually done.
There's a whole new story line possible, without having to repeat old mistake stories with better graphics, and budget.
Certainly a damn sight better than ST-Enterprise, 4 damn seasons of the lamest episodes I ever saw.
<center><font size="+5"><b>Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day... Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life...</b></size></center>
Which would be true if they did, but they didn't. Everything pre-2009 in the prime universe is okay, but everything forward is now going to have to reflect the destruction of Romulus. If the show returns to the big screen, post nemesis, what will it look like? TOS. the reason that the Romulans were such a good foil and one of the reasons the Cardassians were later introduced, was to give dimension to a political universe of two super powers.
If I was the director of the new Star Trek TV series or movies set in the Prime Universe, then I would state that Spock and Nero came from the STO universe not the Prime Universe. Therefore, Romulus would still be around in the Prime Universe. STO already has Romulus destroyed so it might as well be the sacrifice to save Romulus.
If I was the director of the new Star Trek TV series or movies set in the Prime Universe, then I would state that Spock and Nero came from the STO universe not the Prime Universe. Therefore, Romulus would still be around in the Prime Universe. STO already has Romulus destroyed so it might as well be the sacrifice to save Romulus.
That just sounds as terrible as JJTrek blowing up Romulus to begin with. STO is it's own universe that follows the same events as the Prime timeline, including Voyager, DS9 and TNG? That's just a bad cop out, like WoW and Warlords of Draenor. Just follow the STO Romulus canon. It's pretty okay as it is: Romulus blew up, a sect of Romulans survived, settled down on New Romulus. That's it. No biggie. Romulans always land on their feet.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP"
That just sounds as terrible as JJTrek blowing up Romulus to begin with. STO is it's own universe that follows the same events as the Prime timeline, including Voyager, DS9 and TNG? That's just a bad cop out, like WoW and Warlords of Draenor. Just follow the STO Romulus canon. It's pretty okay as it is: Romulus blew up, a sect of Romulans survived, settled down on New Romulus. That's it. No biggie. Romulans always land on their feet.
The STO and novel universes are in their own universes with the Prime Universe is restricted to whatever TV series and movies that happen after Nemesis. All the events up to Nemesis are the same, but everything after that is completely different. STO in Volume 8 of The Path to 2409 already has Spock piloting the Jellyfish to stop the Hobus Supernova from causing more damage. So set the first few minutes of Star Trek 2009 in the STO universe and any new movies and TV series set after Nemesis can come up with completely new stories that aren't affected by STO, the novels, or the JJ Universe.
Which would be true if they did, but they didn't. Everything pre-2009 in the prime universe is okay, but everything forward is now going to have to reflect the destruction of Romulus. If the show returns to the big screen, post nemesis, what will it look like? TOS. the reason that the Romulans were such a good foil and one of the reasons the Cardassians were later introduced, was to give dimension to a political universe of two super powers.
The Abrams timeline is minus Vulcan, how would that series look. It seems illogical for the 10,000 remaining Vulcans to allow any future dispensation for any Vulcans to leave the planet in the near future. It can't be risked. Everyone has to stay there to procreate.
why? they can do that anywhere. It seems more likely to me that they'd spread out more to ensure this can't happen again.
I always loved that article. JJ Abrams Derangement Syndrome is pretty strong in the STO forums (and in game).
I agree with you Iconians. The laughable fake news website http://www.theonion.com is such a good example of how a smart person can use humor that isn't degrading to point out one of the largest faults that most, if not all, people all over the planet have in common: They all think they are right on subjects which they are passionate about and that no one else can tell them any different.
It's the rigid, calloused, and without an ability to listen to two sides in a dispute, and devise a compromise acceptable to both.
And, one last tidbit: the Enterprise is really bigger than a Galaxy class starship.
Before you go insane and type that hate out to us, consider this:
When technology began to be developed around the world in the early days of electricity, before light bulbs were in most peoples homes, all of the gadgets and components required to make that (now) antique hardware work were (by today's standards) large, bulky, heavy, and yet those same components, vacuum tubes, for example were the cutting edge technology in the late 1800's - early 1900's.
I think JJ Abrams recognized that fact. And he also recognized that Star Trek tries very hard to be an acceptable view of our real world future. And so too it follows that everything that has actually happened in our real world transfers over to the Trek Universe with some liberties taken at times yes, but all in all, Real Life and Star Trek do become homogeneous.
And so, if you take that early real world tech and put it on a template for the 23rd and 24th centuries (and beyond) that shows progression as one would see in real life, you get:
The U.S.S. Kelvin
Other Ships that have the same overall look as the Kelvin
OK so now we have a base to work from. The "Kelvin Type" starships all have an aged look to them. And dark gray hull plating that shows those ships have been around the quadrants more than a few times.
And so, here comes the Enterprise. It's (evidently) one of a handfull of ships (NCC-1701 means there is a NCC-1700 at the very least) that have been recently created for Starfleet as the next design evolution meant to take the place of the old "Kelvin Class" type starships.
Now, going back to our earlier example of tech using larger components when said tech is just being invented (like A.G. Bell lived for), the EARLIER iterations of "The Starship Enterprise" would so too need to have a much larger spaceframe to contain and use the components and hardware that are needed to make the ship function at a level that is beyond the capacity of any former ("Kelvin Types" as an example) pre-existing starships.
This means the newest ships ships in the early Starfleet (in the 23rd and maybe 24th century) are going to HAVE to be bigger to fit all those (sarcasm) vacuum tubes, rheostats, electrical transformers, and a warp drive that is a miniature version of CERN into its hull.
I think you can begin to see where I'm going with this. The Enterprise NCC1701 - A then would be a bit smaller. 1701 - B a bit more smaller. 1701 - C smaller still. All the way to the 'E' and 'F' versions.
What this means is, being large isn't an issue at all. It never was. It never will be. Just because this 'alternate' Enterprise is Larger than the Galaxy class...doesn't really mean anything at all. I know you guys think Bigger = Better or Bigger = More Powerful ... it really does not mean either of those at all.
I hope this all makes sense to you, and if it does, please share this with your friends and their friends. It's time that Trek fans STOPPED trying to find things to fight about and come together as a group and embrace this new take on Star Trek.
Shrinking the machinery of the warp drive doesn't necessarily mean shrinking the ship. The aircraft carrier Enterprise CVN-65, the first of her class, was among the first to use nuclear power for propulsion; the later Nimitz-class use fewer reactors, of a more compact design, to generate more power than their older cousins, but the ships themselves are quite a bit larger than the old Enterprise-class.
For that matter, as I recall from comparison pictures, while the Galaxy-class in the Primeverse dwarf the older Constitution- and Excelsior-classes, the warp nacelles were comparable in size...
Shrinking the machinery of the warp drive doesn't necessarily mean shrinking the ship. The aircraft carrier Enterprise CVN-65, the first of her class, was among the first to use nuclear power for propulsion; the later Nimitz-class use fewer reactors, of a more compact design, to generate more power than their older cousins, but the ships themselves are quite a bit larger than the old Enterprise-class.
For that matter, as I recall from comparison pictures, while the Galaxy-class in the Primeverse dwarf the older Constitution- and Excelsior-classes, the warp nacelles were comparable in size...
The first thing that comes to mind is the size of a gas fired boiler vs. the size of a nuclear reactor. The boiler has the main fire box filled with a hundred (at least) high pressure stainless steel tubes for conducting the steam to the turbines. There are also other components that make up a gas fired boiler, but the boiler by itself takes up 4 or more decks of a naval or commercial ship.
I know this because I worked for quite a few years as a non-destructive tester for my uncle's business in Chas. SC. I have been inside, out, and around many a boiler on ships and on land.
I have not had the chance to see a nuclear reactor, so I can only imagine the size. I do believe the amount of steam you need from a nuke engine is governed by the depth the control rods are up or down into the reactor itself, and then the water for the steam conversion. I'm not sure if nuke engines need the high pressure boiler tubes or not. It seems like it would, but there may be another method in place to conduct the super heated steam to the turbines.
The first thing that comes to mind is the size of a gas fired boiler vs. the size of a nuclear reactor. The boiler has the main fire box filled with a hundred (at least) high pressure stainless steel tubes for conducting the steam to the turbines. There are also other components that make up a gas fired boiler, but the boiler by itself takes up 4 or more decks of a naval or commercial ship.
I know this because I worked for quite a few years as a non-destructive tester for my uncle's business in Chas. SC. I have been inside, out, and around many a boiler on ships and on land.
I have not had the chance to see a nuclear reactor, so I can only imagine the size. I do believe the amount of steam you need from a nuke engine is governed by the depth the control rods are up or down into the reactor itself, and then the water for the steam conversion. I'm not sure if nuke engines need the high pressure boiler tubes or not. It seems like it would, but there may be another method in place to conduct the super heated steam to the turbines.
Nuclear reactor driven vessels share a lot of technology with steam driven ones, frankly.
It's main difference is a two stage steam system, with a heat exchanger. the reactor core has coolant running inside the same kind of high pressure seamless tubing, heat from the core is transfered to a secondary system, so as not to have irradiated coolant in the turbines, via a heat exchanger, so yet more tubes interwoven with the tubes connected to the primary coolant system.
Once the water in the secondary system has been converted to super heated steam, it's your standard steam turbine, used to drive (these days at least) dynamos to generate electric power, for the actual electric engines. For carriers, the secondary system also provides the 3/4 of a ton of super heated steam needed for the deck catapults, on the flight deck.
<center><font size="+5"><b>Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day... Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life...</b></size></center>
Nuclear reactor driven vessels share a lot of technology with steam driven ones, frankly.
It's main difference is a two stage steam system, with a heat exchanger. the reactor core has coolant running inside the same kind of high pressure seamless tubing, heat from the core is transfered to a secondary system, so as not to have irradiated coolant in the turbines, via a heat exchanger, so yet more tubes interwoven with the tubes connected to the primary coolant system.
Once the water in the secondary system has been converted to super heated steam, it's your standard steam turbine, used to drive (these days at least) dynamos to generate electric power, for the actual electric engines. For carriers, the secondary system also provides the 3/4 of a ton of super heated steam needed for the deck catapults, on the flight deck.
Huh. It sounds like the real advantage of having a nuclear engine is so you can launch more fighters, or to quickly relaunch the same ones coming back for more rockets and bullets.
Huh. It sounds like the real advantage of having a nuclear engine is so you can launch more fighters, or to quickly relaunch the same ones coming back for more rockets and bullets.
It also enables the ship to stay at sea longer, as it doesn't need to refuel nearly so often. (And the electric power will also come in really handy with the development of electromagnetic catapults for the planes, and laser point-defense systems.)
Huh. It sounds like the real advantage of having a nuclear engine is so you can launch more fighters, or to quickly relaunch the same ones coming back for more rockets and bullets.
Basically, yes, look at the two new carriers ordered for the Royal Navy, both are non nuclear, originally designed for vtol/stol based aircraft (the long overdue F-35-B), they do not have the unlimited steam of a nuclear powered carrier, so the suggestion that they be converted to run conventional fighters posed problems, specifically, how to run the catapults, there's no room in the design for a steam generator powerful enough to run the catapults, so plan c was to use the new electromagnetic catapults, but these too have suffered from problems in design and construction.
Basically, 2 carriers that either have no planes, or have planes they can't launch, rival politicians messing with the project have fubar'd the whole damn thing.
We'd have been better off sticking with the original design and pouring the fubar overspend into Harrier-II...
<center><font size="+5"><b>Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day... Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life...</b></size></center>
Basically, yes, look at the two new carriers ordered for the Royal Navy, both are non nuclear, originally designed for vtol/stol based aircraft (the long overdue F-35-B), they do not have the unlimited steam of a nuclear powered carrier, so the suggestion that they be converted to run conventional fighters posed problems, specifically, how to run the catapults, there's no room in the design for a steam generator powerful enough to run the catapults, so plan c was to use the new electromagnetic catapults, but these too have suffered from problems in design and construction.
Basically, 2 carriers that either have no planes, or have planes they can't launch, rival politicians messing with the project have fubar'd the whole damn thing.
We'd have been better off sticking with the original design and pouring the fubar overspend into Harrier-II...
That's what happens when you have a successive governments who are nearly polar opposites that follow one another. The present Royal Navy is a powerful surface force with a weak air force. The only reason that the HMS Prince of Wales is being built is to sustain the jobs. There is a real concern that the HMS Queen Elizabeth will become the British version of the Chakri Narbet, the useless Thai carrier that is pretty much a large Royal yacht. The RN should have scaled back to an upgraded Ocean-class or a copy of the Wasp-class or a Mistral.
There is no reason why a ship as large as the Galaxy can be built in TOS Era. They can build ESD and similar structures.
why? they can do that anywhere. It seems more likely to me that they'd spread out more to ensure this can't happen again.
Vulcans were already somewhat spread out, that's why 10,000 or so survived. But when survivors are needed to repopulate a species, they concentrate, not disperse. When a species number is low, dispersal is a detriment. Unless that species is capable of asexual reproduction, like bacteria.
That just sounds as terrible as JJTrek blowing up Romulus to begin with. STO is it's own universe that follows the same events as the Prime timeline, including Voyager, DS9 and TNG? That's just a bad cop out, like WoW and Warlords of Draenor. Just follow the STO Romulus canon. It's pretty okay as it is: Romulus blew up, a sect of Romulans survived, settled down on New Romulus. That's it. No biggie. Romulans always land on their feet.
I think the STO writers did a fair job with the Romulan mess that they had to work with. I'll give them kudos for that. I don't like the Republic myself. I try to play my character in STO as if it does t exist (except when I have to play story missions) and I really don't want to see a story about a rebuilt, refugee Romulan race. I'm sorry that I have to be that inflexible guy, but I'm too logical to think a million or so people on a new planet that can't even rebuild a capitol city in a year, could possibly build a fleet of advanced new ships. To say the least about holding enough political capital to hold something as strategic as a Dyson's sphere. A new series would have to be set a century post nemesis and frankly it just wouldn't be the same. I have to admit there is some bias here. The Romulans are my favorite of the Star Trek factions. They're seen the least on screen and we have to learn about their civilization very slowly over three TV series. I think there was so much left unexplored that we could have gotten many more miles out of the faction as an intact empire.
Frankly it wouldn't have stung so bad if the new Star Trek story was smart, logical or had a very strong plot that compelled you to feel like the loss of these worlds were necessary. For all the efforts that STO put into the Romulan republic and as good a job as they did, it's in-game progress is too non-sensical to take seriously and a writer of a new series would face the same problem. Unless he can do the. JJ snap and just make it happen out of thin air, explanations be damned. I just don't have a large enough jar of "suspension of belief" elixir.
Vulcans were already somewhat spread out, that's why 10,000 or so survived. But when survivors are needed to repopulate a species, they concentrate, not disperse. When a species number is low, dispersal is a detriment. Unless that species is capable of asexual reproduction, like bacteria.
Uh, no. That's only true if they disperse to the extreme of being 1-per ship. A few hundred on Vega, a few hundred on Earth... etc... should be more than sufficient for ensuring their survival.
I think the STO writers did a fair job with the Romulan mess that they had to work with. I'll give them kudos for that. I don't like the Republic myself. I try to play my character in STO as if it does t exist (except when I have to play story missions) and I really don't want to see a story about a rebuilt, refugee Romulan race. I'm sorry that I have to be that inflexible guy, but I'm too logical to think a million or so people on a new planet that can't even rebuild a capitol city in a year, could possibly build a fleet of advanced new ships. To say the least about holding enough political capital to hold something as strategic as a Dyson's sphere. A new series would have to be set a century post nemesis and frankly it just wouldn't be the same. I have to admit there is some bias here. The Romulans are my favorite of the Star Trek factions. They're seen the least on screen and we have to learn about their civilization very slowly over three TV series. I think there was so much left unexplored that we could have gotten many more miles out of the faction as an intact empire.
Frankly it wouldn't have stung so bad if the new Star Trek story was smart, logical or had a very strong plot that compelled you to feel like the loss of these worlds were necessary. For all the efforts that STO put into the Romulan republic and as good a job as they did, it's in-game progress is too non-sensical to take seriously and a writer of a new series would face the same problem. Unless he can do the. JJ snap and just make it happen out of thin air, explanations be damned. I just don't have a large enough jar of "suspension of belief" elixir.
You have to keep in mind, though, that the RR on New Romulus is only a fraction of the Romulans left. The species isn't confined to their homeworld, they had plenty of systems colonized and while the central government vanishing certainly put the state in disarray and civil war there are many more Romulans left than D'Tan's group - it's just that STO exclusively concentrates on those or portrays the other Romulans as incapable of doing anything.
I would suspect that after the hobus incident many Romulan splinter groups formed. Republicans and Imperialists for one, as in D'Tan (I don't know how he can get so many people behind him, though. Unificationists were shown to be a much, much smaller group) and Sela. Then there's the Tal Shiar effectively going rogue and forming their own faction (STO first portrayed them as the "old Romulans" which is just one of countless msitakes Cryptic makes all the time). And then I would suspect a number of Romulan Tribunes to try to break away and establish their own faction.
My headcanon and story for all my Romulan characters involves the Garidians as well. This is entirely non-canon, but the TNG point and click adventure "A Final Unity" introduced a Romulan client state, the Garidian Republic, which was developed and powerful enough to be a client state and not absorbed (although without a doubt controlled) and they even engaged in large scale technological exchange with the Empire, being supplied with Warbirds and other technology though they maintained their own uniforms and even hull designs (Garidian ships are grey-ish with red markings). In "my STO", the Garidian Republic is, next to the Imperialists that deal with their problems, the most influencial power left and due to severe political tensions with the Star Empire and their exposed tempering with the Garidians (all derived from the story of "A Final Unity") they decided to support and provide protection to D'Tan's Republicans. That's how I explain the larger and newer starships on the Romulan side of the game, as I still after all the time after LoR don't understand where those shipyards are supposed to be. Even if the Republic is absorbing other colonies, they still don't get anything done on New Romulus. Cryptic really doesn't a good job here.
Anyway, just for fun: My headcanon is fairly certain that D'Tan's Republic will soon overpower the Garidians who alreadyare spread thin and in the end will become one of the main factions in the quadrant again, essentially repeating history and end up at war with the Klingons etc.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Note that the below is partly headcanon, but is supported by official canon:
D'Tan's group became quickly popular because the Star Navy was in disarray with the constantly shifting Praetors and the occasional appearance of an Empress, not to mention deliberate sabotage by Tal'Shiar, so for a lot of the outer worlds of the Star Empire "Navy" and "Tal'Shiar" became very nearly synonymous. The Republic offered them stability and protection from the rather capricious Tal'Shiar. (And when Hakeev hooked up with the Elachi, it tipped the balance even further in the Republic's favor.)
As for the STO missions, most of Starfleet's interactions with Romulans of any sort are overseen by Admiral T'nae, who is a blatant racist who sees Romulans as a monolithic mass, not unlike the Borg. If you play a Rom, you find that she's barely willing to see a distinction between the Tal'Shiar and the Republic; it's no wonder they treat Tal'Shiar and Star Navy as interchangeable names.
Meanwhile, we see in that FE with Sela and Taris (whose title escapes me) that the Star Navy is out there, but operating close to the core worlds, trying to keep the remnants of the Star Empire from flying apart. I suspect that if we were to ever play Imperial Romulans, we'd find ourselves in conflict with the Tal'Shiar about as often as the Republic is.
T'Nae mentions in the current version of the Fed Romulan War arc perhaps a billion Romulans were not caught in the Hobus event. That was thirty years ago, so the numbers have had some chance to recover.
STO has also indicated most colonies have joined the Republic over the imperial remnants at this point. Administrative control of the Sphere seems to have helped.
Headcanon section below:
D'Tan got the backing of both major powers (a long history of being against the Tal Shiar probably helped his credentials) which helped bring colonies over to the Republic (also, the fact he wasn't looting disaster relief supplies probably helped win over hearts and minds) and the Remans, who were starting to be abused after having it relatively good under Taris via the agencies of Sela and the Tal Shiar.
Most people in the Republic seem to be in favor of normalization of relations with allies, probably because they just would like a stable decade to rebuild, please. D'Tan would specifically like peace between Vulcan and New Romulus, but he also stated that he wants his people to have their own identity, which he seems to be busy reconstructing to be less backstabby overall.
D'Tan also seems to be trying to avoid actually invading Romulan holdout colonies, which the final attack on Hakeev under the auspices of the Republic's allied powers, not a pure Republic operation. T'Nae, of course, was all for it.
I also found interesting during Uneasy Allies, that Sela's Q-ship was only able to bring an Imperial Romulan Navy Mogai to its defense, while the Tal Shiar's got D'deridexes to spare to guard a base they've more or less abandoned.
It's... apparently not going well for the 'Empire'.
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
Basically, 2 carriers that either have no planes, or have planes they can't launch, rival politicians messing with the project have fubar'd the whole damn thing.
To be fair, the variant of the Lightning II that the MoD has ordered is a jump jet (the F-35C) which can take off without CATOBAR on a ski ramp design.
Two problems:
1. It's only one squadron to be shared between the Fleet Air Arm and the RAF, which means only one carrier will get the jet.
2. The F-35 is stuck in development hell and will probably miss its deadline, which means the Fleet Air Arm will be grounded for even longer than originally planned.
I say we buy some carrier jets off the French.
Anyway, back on topic. I do agree that it makes no sense that the Federation could build Galaxy-sized vessels in TOS, but keep in mind that JJ Trek has had a massive military crisis, and then consider that in only a couple of years, the British Government had built infrastructure to go from Pre-Dreadnoughts to much bigger Dreadnought Battleships. It isn't that crazy.
Uh, no. That's only true if they disperse to the extreme of being 1-per ship. A few hundred on Vega, a few hundred on Earth... etc... should be more than sufficient for ensuring their survival.
Disease, warfare, environmental problems and any number of things could threaten a small group. Doesn't mean it won't work, but if they're letting Vulcans serve on ships, diplomatic posts, etc, it seems unlikely that they'll be in large enough numbers to mate, but won't be present to share their genetic traits at home. It's also hard to say how many children each family will produce. I've never seen Vulcans who had more than 1-3 children at a clip. That may change while the species is dwindling, but it could be biological that Vulcan couples wouldn't produce say 5-12 children at a time, assuming it would be necessary.
Do you people realize the fake news piece in my OP is a FAKE NEWS PIECE?
Wow. Just wow. And I was under the impression Star Trek fans were smart. Boy was I wrong. Again. For the First Time.
I think most people know the onion is a parody news network funny stuff really lol
BUT when you say anything trek among trekkies well it wont matter what the source material is it becomes about whatever in hte hell they are talking about and your thread just gets overrun with the bullsheet.
I think most people know the onion is a parody news network funny stuff really lol
BUT when you say anything trek among trekkies well it wont matter what the source material is it becomes about whatever in hte hell they are talking about and your thread just gets overrun with the bullsheet.
Damn straight Joran. But even some foe-rum madder put it to me as using a schooner to drop nets. Now I can forgive the minor foe-rum'tard of getting their panties in a snag, but the madders are supposed to be a bit above water, right?
Comments
Which would be true if they did, but they didn't. Everything pre-2009 in the prime universe is okay, but everything forward is now going to have to reflect the destruction of Romulus. If the show returns to the big screen, post nemesis, what will it look like? TOS. the reason that the Romulans were such a good foil and one of the reasons the Cardassians were later introduced, was to give dimension to a political universe of two super powers.
The Abrams timeline is minus Vulcan, how would that series look. It seems illogical for the 10,000 remaining Vulcans to allow any future dispensation for any Vulcans to leave the planet in the near future. It can't be risked. Everyone has to stay there to procreate.
We have a prime universe where Cardassia and Romulus are damaged or destroyed, the Klingons and Federation remain and in the other universe the Vulcans are home-bound for what would almost certainly be 50-100 years. We can have a show with all new stories and we can see the heightened role of smaller powers that can rise up to take over for the other powerhouses that were lost, but is there someone in the creative miasma today that has the storytelling ability to pull this off? And what will be decided of the remnants of our favorite and iconic peoples of the Star Trek universe?
I'm all for rebirth and Star Trek certainly did need to shed some baggage, but Vulcan and Romukus weren't Tattooine. They weren't one off worlds who's destruction would be without consequence. And this is the crux of the issue I have not just with the new story, but with the IP holders. A villain can have plenty of compelling reasons to chase someone across space and time without his home world being blown up and be can be bad and wreak havoc without blowing up another world. He could be a very bad-TRIBBLE villain and destroy someone's home world if the story was strong, the character compelling and the plot points could drive that home with sound reasons that have a resonance to the story. But here the villain was killed, the "heroes" warped away and Vulcan is forgotten about. It doesn't have a story impact anymore.
What I see in Abrams and his team is laziness, dressed in sizzle and pop, but without the steak. There's no real substance and I almost felt myself rooting for Nero to wipe the smug, wreck-less TRIBBLE off of the map. And here's my final issue- the IP. I'm not angry with Abrams, he knows how to put window dressing on a steaming pile of horse squeeze, and then sell it as cinematic gold. I'm not even frustrated with movie going audiences who should have higher expectations than this. I am severely disappointed that Paramount/CBS don't protect their IPs with greater care. I've heard complaints of all kinds from Star Wars fans about the acquisition of SW by Disney. But of all the IP holders to purchase that franchise, few zealously protect and cherish their IP properties the way that Disney does. With ST you have a split franchise agreement by two companies who would milk ST to its permanent death, without any foresight into the future.
I deeply believe that if either CBS or Paramount would agree to helm all of the rights and they would have some kind of executive who would exercise some oversight over the IP instead of turning the whole thing over to one person/production house, we might have had the same week story, but perhaps someone might have said "JJ you can't destroy two iconic worlds in this IP without something a lot more compelling than this".
I should have prefaced the whole comment that this is merely my own opinion. I may be WAY off course here, but it is what I think about the matter.
What can I say, yes they basically altered the trek timeline, and good job too, think, if they hadn't, then all the new trek movies would basically have been glitzy remakes of all the old trek movies. That would have probably pissed off more trek fans than what they have actually done.
There's a whole new story line possible, without having to repeat old mistake stories with better graphics, and budget.
Certainly a damn sight better than ST-Enterprise, 4 damn seasons of the lamest episodes I ever saw.
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If I was the director of the new Star Trek TV series or movies set in the Prime Universe, then I would state that Spock and Nero came from the STO universe not the Prime Universe. Therefore, Romulus would still be around in the Prime Universe. STO already has Romulus destroyed so it might as well be the sacrifice to save Romulus.
That just sounds as terrible as JJTrek blowing up Romulus to begin with. STO is it's own universe that follows the same events as the Prime timeline, including Voyager, DS9 and TNG? That's just a bad cop out, like WoW and Warlords of Draenor. Just follow the STO Romulus canon. It's pretty okay as it is: Romulus blew up, a sect of Romulans survived, settled down on New Romulus. That's it. No biggie. Romulans always land on their feet.
-Leonard Nimoy, RIP
The STO and novel universes are in their own universes with the Prime Universe is restricted to whatever TV series and movies that happen after Nemesis. All the events up to Nemesis are the same, but everything after that is completely different. STO in Volume 8 of The Path to 2409 already has Spock piloting the Jellyfish to stop the Hobus Supernova from causing more damage. So set the first few minutes of Star Trek 2009 in the STO universe and any new movies and TV series set after Nemesis can come up with completely new stories that aren't affected by STO, the novels, or the JJ Universe.
My character Tsin'xing
I agree with you Iconians. The laughable fake news website http://www.theonion.com is such a good example of how a smart person can use humor that isn't degrading to point out one of the largest faults that most, if not all, people all over the planet have in common: They all think they are right on subjects which they are passionate about and that no one else can tell them any different.
It's the rigid, calloused, and without an ability to listen to two sides in a dispute, and devise a compromise acceptable to both.
And, one last tidbit: the Enterprise is really bigger than a Galaxy class starship.
Before you go insane and type that hate out to us, consider this:
When technology began to be developed around the world in the early days of electricity, before light bulbs were in most peoples homes, all of the gadgets and components required to make that (now) antique hardware work were (by today's standards) large, bulky, heavy, and yet those same components, vacuum tubes, for example were the cutting edge technology in the late 1800's - early 1900's.
I think JJ Abrams recognized that fact. And he also recognized that Star Trek tries very hard to be an acceptable view of our real world future. And so too it follows that everything that has actually happened in our real world transfers over to the Trek Universe with some liberties taken at times yes, but all in all, Real Life and Star Trek do become homogeneous.
And so, if you take that early real world tech and put it on a template for the 23rd and 24th centuries (and beyond) that shows progression as one would see in real life, you get:
The U.S.S. Kelvin
Other Ships that have the same overall look as the Kelvin
OK so now we have a base to work from. The "Kelvin Type" starships all have an aged look to them. And dark gray hull plating that shows those ships have been around the quadrants more than a few times.
And so, here comes the Enterprise. It's (evidently) one of a handfull of ships (NCC-1701 means there is a NCC-1700 at the very least) that have been recently created for Starfleet as the next design evolution meant to take the place of the old "Kelvin Class" type starships.
Now, going back to our earlier example of tech using larger components when said tech is just being invented (like A.G. Bell lived for), the EARLIER iterations of "The Starship Enterprise" would so too need to have a much larger spaceframe to contain and use the components and hardware that are needed to make the ship function at a level that is beyond the capacity of any former ("Kelvin Types" as an example) pre-existing starships.
This means the newest ships ships in the early Starfleet (in the 23rd and maybe 24th century) are going to HAVE to be bigger to fit all those (sarcasm) vacuum tubes, rheostats, electrical transformers, and a warp drive that is a miniature version of CERN into its hull.
I think you can begin to see where I'm going with this. The Enterprise NCC1701 - A then would be a bit smaller. 1701 - B a bit more smaller. 1701 - C smaller still. All the way to the 'E' and 'F' versions.
What this means is, being large isn't an issue at all. It never was. It never will be. Just because this 'alternate' Enterprise is Larger than the Galaxy class...doesn't really mean anything at all. I know you guys think Bigger = Better or Bigger = More Powerful ... it really does not mean either of those at all.
I hope this all makes sense to you, and if it does, please share this with your friends and their friends. It's time that Trek fans STOPPED trying to find things to fight about and come together as a group and embrace this new take on Star Trek.
Together, WE are stronger.
Best regards,
T9
LLAP!
For that matter, as I recall from comparison pictures, while the Galaxy-class in the Primeverse dwarf the older Constitution- and Excelsior-classes, the warp nacelles were comparable in size...
The first thing that comes to mind is the size of a gas fired boiler vs. the size of a nuclear reactor. The boiler has the main fire box filled with a hundred (at least) high pressure stainless steel tubes for conducting the steam to the turbines. There are also other components that make up a gas fired boiler, but the boiler by itself takes up 4 or more decks of a naval or commercial ship.
I know this because I worked for quite a few years as a non-destructive tester for my uncle's business in Chas. SC. I have been inside, out, and around many a boiler on ships and on land.
I have not had the chance to see a nuclear reactor, so I can only imagine the size. I do believe the amount of steam you need from a nuke engine is governed by the depth the control rods are up or down into the reactor itself, and then the water for the steam conversion. I'm not sure if nuke engines need the high pressure boiler tubes or not. It seems like it would, but there may be another method in place to conduct the super heated steam to the turbines.
Nuclear reactor driven vessels share a lot of technology with steam driven ones, frankly.
It's main difference is a two stage steam system, with a heat exchanger. the reactor core has coolant running inside the same kind of high pressure seamless tubing, heat from the core is transfered to a secondary system, so as not to have irradiated coolant in the turbines, via a heat exchanger, so yet more tubes interwoven with the tubes connected to the primary coolant system.
Once the water in the secondary system has been converted to super heated steam, it's your standard steam turbine, used to drive (these days at least) dynamos to generate electric power, for the actual electric engines. For carriers, the secondary system also provides the 3/4 of a ton of super heated steam needed for the deck catapults, on the flight deck.
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Huh. It sounds like the real advantage of having a nuclear engine is so you can launch more fighters, or to quickly relaunch the same ones coming back for more rockets and bullets.
Basically, yes, look at the two new carriers ordered for the Royal Navy, both are non nuclear, originally designed for vtol/stol based aircraft (the long overdue F-35-B), they do not have the unlimited steam of a nuclear powered carrier, so the suggestion that they be converted to run conventional fighters posed problems, specifically, how to run the catapults, there's no room in the design for a steam generator powerful enough to run the catapults, so plan c was to use the new electromagnetic catapults, but these too have suffered from problems in design and construction.
Basically, 2 carriers that either have no planes, or have planes they can't launch, rival politicians messing with the project have fubar'd the whole damn thing.
We'd have been better off sticking with the original design and pouring the fubar overspend into Harrier-II...
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That's what happens when you have a successive governments who are nearly polar opposites that follow one another. The present Royal Navy is a powerful surface force with a weak air force. The only reason that the HMS Prince of Wales is being built is to sustain the jobs. There is a real concern that the HMS Queen Elizabeth will become the British version of the Chakri Narbet, the useless Thai carrier that is pretty much a large Royal yacht. The RN should have scaled back to an upgraded Ocean-class or a copy of the Wasp-class or a Mistral.
There is no reason why a ship as large as the Galaxy can be built in TOS Era. They can build ESD and similar structures.
Vulcans were already somewhat spread out, that's why 10,000 or so survived. But when survivors are needed to repopulate a species, they concentrate, not disperse. When a species number is low, dispersal is a detriment. Unless that species is capable of asexual reproduction, like bacteria.
I think the STO writers did a fair job with the Romulan mess that they had to work with. I'll give them kudos for that. I don't like the Republic myself. I try to play my character in STO as if it does t exist (except when I have to play story missions) and I really don't want to see a story about a rebuilt, refugee Romulan race. I'm sorry that I have to be that inflexible guy, but I'm too logical to think a million or so people on a new planet that can't even rebuild a capitol city in a year, could possibly build a fleet of advanced new ships. To say the least about holding enough political capital to hold something as strategic as a Dyson's sphere. A new series would have to be set a century post nemesis and frankly it just wouldn't be the same. I have to admit there is some bias here. The Romulans are my favorite of the Star Trek factions. They're seen the least on screen and we have to learn about their civilization very slowly over three TV series. I think there was so much left unexplored that we could have gotten many more miles out of the faction as an intact empire.
Frankly it wouldn't have stung so bad if the new Star Trek story was smart, logical or had a very strong plot that compelled you to feel like the loss of these worlds were necessary. For all the efforts that STO put into the Romulan republic and as good a job as they did, it's in-game progress is too non-sensical to take seriously and a writer of a new series would face the same problem. Unless he can do the. JJ snap and just make it happen out of thin air, explanations be damned. I just don't have a large enough jar of "suspension of belief" elixir.
My character Tsin'xing
You have to keep in mind, though, that the RR on New Romulus is only a fraction of the Romulans left. The species isn't confined to their homeworld, they had plenty of systems colonized and while the central government vanishing certainly put the state in disarray and civil war there are many more Romulans left than D'Tan's group - it's just that STO exclusively concentrates on those or portrays the other Romulans as incapable of doing anything.
I would suspect that after the hobus incident many Romulan splinter groups formed. Republicans and Imperialists for one, as in D'Tan (I don't know how he can get so many people behind him, though. Unificationists were shown to be a much, much smaller group) and Sela. Then there's the Tal Shiar effectively going rogue and forming their own faction (STO first portrayed them as the "old Romulans" which is just one of countless msitakes Cryptic makes all the time). And then I would suspect a number of Romulan Tribunes to try to break away and establish their own faction.
My headcanon and story for all my Romulan characters involves the Garidians as well. This is entirely non-canon, but the TNG point and click adventure "A Final Unity" introduced a Romulan client state, the Garidian Republic, which was developed and powerful enough to be a client state and not absorbed (although without a doubt controlled) and they even engaged in large scale technological exchange with the Empire, being supplied with Warbirds and other technology though they maintained their own uniforms and even hull designs (Garidian ships are grey-ish with red markings). In "my STO", the Garidian Republic is, next to the Imperialists that deal with their problems, the most influencial power left and due to severe political tensions with the Star Empire and their exposed tempering with the Garidians (all derived from the story of "A Final Unity") they decided to support and provide protection to D'Tan's Republicans. That's how I explain the larger and newer starships on the Romulan side of the game, as I still after all the time after LoR don't understand where those shipyards are supposed to be. Even if the Republic is absorbing other colonies, they still don't get anything done on New Romulus. Cryptic really doesn't a good job here.
Anyway, just for fun: My headcanon is fairly certain that D'Tan's Republic will soon overpower the Garidians who alreadyare spread thin and in the end will become one of the main factions in the quadrant again, essentially repeating history and end up at war with the Klingons etc.
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D'Tan's group became quickly popular because the Star Navy was in disarray with the constantly shifting Praetors and the occasional appearance of an Empress, not to mention deliberate sabotage by Tal'Shiar, so for a lot of the outer worlds of the Star Empire "Navy" and "Tal'Shiar" became very nearly synonymous. The Republic offered them stability and protection from the rather capricious Tal'Shiar. (And when Hakeev hooked up with the Elachi, it tipped the balance even further in the Republic's favor.)
As for the STO missions, most of Starfleet's interactions with Romulans of any sort are overseen by Admiral T'nae, who is a blatant racist who sees Romulans as a monolithic mass, not unlike the Borg. If you play a Rom, you find that she's barely willing to see a distinction between the Tal'Shiar and the Republic; it's no wonder they treat Tal'Shiar and Star Navy as interchangeable names.
Meanwhile, we see in that FE with Sela and Taris (whose title escapes me) that the Star Navy is out there, but operating close to the core worlds, trying to keep the remnants of the Star Empire from flying apart. I suspect that if we were to ever play Imperial Romulans, we'd find ourselves in conflict with the Tal'Shiar about as often as the Republic is.
STO has also indicated most colonies have joined the Republic over the imperial remnants at this point. Administrative control of the Sphere seems to have helped.
Headcanon section below:
D'Tan got the backing of both major powers (a long history of being against the Tal Shiar probably helped his credentials) which helped bring colonies over to the Republic (also, the fact he wasn't looting disaster relief supplies probably helped win over hearts and minds) and the Remans, who were starting to be abused after having it relatively good under Taris via the agencies of Sela and the Tal Shiar.
Most people in the Republic seem to be in favor of normalization of relations with allies, probably because they just would like a stable decade to rebuild, please. D'Tan would specifically like peace between Vulcan and New Romulus, but he also stated that he wants his people to have their own identity, which he seems to be busy reconstructing to be less backstabby overall.
D'Tan also seems to be trying to avoid actually invading Romulan holdout colonies, which the final attack on Hakeev under the auspices of the Republic's allied powers, not a pure Republic operation. T'Nae, of course, was all for it.
I also found interesting during Uneasy Allies, that Sela's Q-ship was only able to bring an Imperial Romulan Navy Mogai to its defense, while the Tal Shiar's got D'deridexes to spare to guard a base they've more or less abandoned.
It's... apparently not going well for the 'Empire'.
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My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
To be fair, the variant of the Lightning II that the MoD has ordered is a jump jet (the F-35C) which can take off without CATOBAR on a ski ramp design.
Two problems:
1. It's only one squadron to be shared between the Fleet Air Arm and the RAF, which means only one carrier will get the jet.
2. The F-35 is stuck in development hell and will probably miss its deadline, which means the Fleet Air Arm will be grounded for even longer than originally planned.
I say we buy some carrier jets off the French.
Anyway, back on topic. I do agree that it makes no sense that the Federation could build Galaxy-sized vessels in TOS, but keep in mind that JJ Trek has had a massive military crisis, and then consider that in only a couple of years, the British Government had built infrastructure to go from Pre-Dreadnoughts to much bigger Dreadnought Battleships. It isn't that crazy.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Disease, warfare, environmental problems and any number of things could threaten a small group. Doesn't mean it won't work, but if they're letting Vulcans serve on ships, diplomatic posts, etc, it seems unlikely that they'll be in large enough numbers to mate, but won't be present to share their genetic traits at home. It's also hard to say how many children each family will produce. I've never seen Vulcans who had more than 1-3 children at a clip. That may change while the species is dwindling, but it could be biological that Vulcan couples wouldn't produce say 5-12 children at a time, assuming it would be necessary.
Wow. Just wow. And I was under the impression Star Trek fans were smart. Boy was I wrong. Again. For the First Time.
I think most people know the onion is a parody news network funny stuff really lol
BUT when you say anything trek among trekkies well it wont matter what the source material is it becomes about whatever in hte hell they are talking about and your thread just gets overrun with the bullsheet.
Damn straight Joran. But even some foe-rum madder put it to me as using a schooner to drop nets. Now I can forgive the minor foe-rum'tard of getting their panties in a snag, but the madders are supposed to be a bit above water, right?
Russian Roulette, anyone? I'll bring the Bullets.