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Does STO need to go back to more casual after Delta Recruitment?
carlosbfly
Member Posts: 682 Arc User
Since we're seeing a lot of new players off of the Delta Recruitment promotion (happily, one of my friends picked up STO this weekend), I think the question from here is - can we make them stay? More players means more money after all so its everyones best interest they sample, enjoy and want to make STO their home.
STO used to be a lot more of a casual game before the mess we called Delta Rising.
So does STO need to go back to that?
I wonder if any of these new players will hang about to make any kind of financial difference if they are going to be hit with stuff like relentless timegates, gruelling exp progression and that awful R&D system. I think most would agree STO is not a massively sophisticated MMO and was always more for the millions of Trek fans who weren't massive gamers but loved the license.
I know Cryptic are making changes already but I'm hoping the new blood to the game is enough to have them to keep pushing towards getting the game back to more casual/fun for the average gamer and less of the niche gruelling struggle its become in the last eight months.
STO used to be a lot more of a casual game before the mess we called Delta Rising.
So does STO need to go back to that?
I wonder if any of these new players will hang about to make any kind of financial difference if they are going to be hit with stuff like relentless timegates, gruelling exp progression and that awful R&D system. I think most would agree STO is not a massively sophisticated MMO and was always more for the millions of Trek fans who weren't massive gamers but loved the license.
I know Cryptic are making changes already but I'm hoping the new blood to the game is enough to have them to keep pushing towards getting the game back to more casual/fun for the average gamer and less of the niche gruelling struggle its become in the last eight months.
Post edited by carlosbfly on
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The game still caters for casual. Casual players still can finish all the missions/STF without thinking about DPS but limited to level of difficulty. Casuals shouldnt even care about these rewards or grinding so fast because they are casuals. Casuals can even just log in the game to chat or log in the forums and flame anyone or just show off their new uniform or their new T6 Galaxy.
You can play as a captain in Stark Trek universe, Once you start caring beyond all of these and caring about fastest progression, fastest getting to epic stuff, then those arent even Casuals anymore. You can say these are "Fake Casuals", hardcore players being outcompeted by other players.
New blood depends on who the game recruits - competent or incompetent, resilient or spoiled. New players doesnt equate to incompetent players. The current game mechanics caters for a certain group of players.
To translate what you want away in lay terms - Make incompetents and spoiled getting the same rewards, items and XP same as the competent and those who spend more time and/or money disguised as "Make the game fun/casual again."
... if we're lucky , Season 10 and perhaps another grind event might land before the Summer bird-monkey fest begins ...
casual, yes. but this grinding thing was building well before DR hit. DR only confirmed what some had already suspected.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Its only a grind if you make it into one. So far I hadn't grind at all. I'm enjoying shooting on the action zone, and using ships that usually sits idle.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Honestly, Im going to have to agree with spyral on this. I have played one other MMO before I joined STO. I was one of the unfortunate few that played WoW as my first MMO. Now thats a game that needs to be a full time job. It took me months of grinding and repeating quests, to get any kit that would allow me to compete with other players.
STO on the other hand!? Well, between loot critters dropping uncommon and/or rare weapons, missions rewarding rare gear and the reputation system giving out some pretty cool stuff, even for a casual player, means that a player like me (one that started off playing a couple of hours a week) was able to complete STFs and Queues with other players without being too much of a pain in the rear. Added to that, I never had an issue with completing story content, though the DR stuff would prove challenging if I did it without trying to upgrade my gear! Now, I won't lie, I'm by no means a casual player any more and as I've gotten more involved in the game mechanics, economics and crafting systems, my ability to compete with other players has, of course, increased significantly.
Does this mean that STO is not a casual game? No, its easily playable as a casual game, and IF the player wants to make it more than that, well they can.
Proud Member of the Operational Support (Bug Hunter) Team
It's designed to play a bit each day over the long haul, instead of piles of hours at once. Further, you can space out the play as you want - each piece of content is short, letting you drop out of the game conveniently.
These things make a game casual. It taking a while to get everything while playing this way makes it sustainable.
somewhat naive point of view, because people are different and so are their approaches to things.
you may see starcraft 2 for example being a casual building game, watching the storyline of raynors raiders taking down the dominion and taking your time, but others would see the grand cash reward of going to south korea, competing in over the top tournements verse other people of the same means and they would see that "over the top" approach as casual to them.
to these type playing from dawn to midnight starcraft 2 every day to improve their game is casual even though you may see it as completely nuts. its the same for any gamer on any game including sto.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I think this is more what I mean. Obviously, do not give stuff away. Let there be content that you need to be good to reach for and achieve. I think a lot of the new players are in for a horrific shock once they hit Level 50. The time versus gain goes totally offbase from that point imo (and I think this is where STO loses people).
There are folks playing hardcore and having fun. Wheeee!
There are folks playing casually and having fun. Wheeee!
There are folks that want to play casually but have hardcore expectations posting threads like this...
Oh God, don't. That's a terrifying thought
That's all right, though. STO supports a hardcore style - you can play a pile every day, make it an activity you pursue with a professional or avid hobbyist mindset, and there's stuff in the game for that - trying to cap more specializations than it lets you use, buying CStore packs using dilithium trading mined off multiple characters, guild runs of Elite queues with 100% success rates. PvP, though I don't recommend it because PvP in this game is awful.
But the primary target of the game is casual, and the way it's set up casual play gives the best reward per hour played and is never punished. The game is casual-friendly - possibly the most casual-friendly game in the genre.
This is one of the most casual-friendly MMOs I have ever played--and I've played quite a few, including spending a considerable amount of time in one of the top raid guilds on our server. If you leave everything on the default difficulty and just play through the story missions in order, you will hit level 30 well before the end of the second episode (Wasteland), and 50 long before you run out of story content. If you have even a minimal grasp on the mechanics and don't suck out loud, the mission rewards and drops along the way will allow you to keep up with the mission content without even if you don't touch the gear upgrade system (I didn't until I was already past 50).
Yes, the spec point grind after 50 is super-tedious, no lie. So what? Most casual players will stall there anyway, if they even get there; it's effectively a "soft" level cap.
And then there's the doff system, which can almost be considered a separate, parallel game. If you don't have much time to play, or don't like either the space or ground combat, you can quite literally level yourself all the way from 11 to 50 just running doff assignments if you really want to. Just queue them up whenever you have time, and they take care of themselves while you're offline doing real-world stuff.
No consequences for death unless you raise the difficulty, no penalty for not logging in regularly, offline alternate advancement system, no need to grind for gear or rep in order to progress the story, no non-consensual PvP, all RMT products achievable through dil trading... you get the idea. This game is only as difficult and grindy as you choose to make it on yourself.
Eclipse Class Intel Cruiser U.S.S. Dioscuria NX-91121-A - Interactive Crew Roster
I find the EASYNESS of this game and the way you gain a new level PER mission until right to the end THAT is GRUELING progression and the R&D system while still not the best at least it has you do SOMETHING other than vendorizing it
The definition of a casual player isn't someone who doesn't care, it's someone who doesn't necessarily have a ton of time or money to throw at the game. I want elite-level gear, too. I used to be able to get it, with time. I can now, but it costs a lot more real money and a lot more time. That makes it feel like playing STO isn't worth it. I can just go play something less frustrating.
I don't want STO to become Lineage II, where everything is a tedious chore. "Collect 120 mithril ores and 65 oriharukon and a 100% recipe and 256 threads and find a dwarf and...."
Actual join date: Open beta, 2009ish.
Yeaaaah, uh, the ones racing to 50 on the first day aren't the casual players, bro.
Actual join date: Open beta, 2009ish.
The people on the forums demanding the game be made "more casual" are not casual players, but hardcore grinders who just want to get more stuff for less gameplay.
I have seen many before say that STO is casual, and that WOW, or other games are not because in those other games they had to grind for months to get gear, kits, weapons, etc. To be honest, casual players have to grind STO for months to get their weapons, gear, etc. also.
To tell the truth STO, WOW, and no other games out there are casual. There are games that may advertise to casual players, but there is no "casual" or "hardcore" game. It is the person themselves that are hardcore, or casual.
STO was a lot friendlier for casual players before DR hit. However, it was neither a casual or hardcore game. It just made it easier for both types of players to have the feeling of achievement. For the hardcore type of gamers, it was chasing DPS, buying the next new ship, opening lockboxes, or buying lockbox ships. For the casual, it was being able to log in for the limited time they had, and still see that they were accomplishing something.
The casual players were not able to chase the DPS as fast as hardcore players, but they could still do it in a reasonable time.
I have realized what Delta Rising has actually brought to the game. The game had DPS chasers, and ones that were collecting the next new ships, opening lockboxes, buying lockbox ships, etc. That is all still here.
The difference is:
1)That DPS is needed more now than ever.
2)Progression in leveling from 50-60+ is ridiculously long.
3)We now have a long-term system (CapSpec).
4)The CapSpec system is a long-term system, but has short-term goals locked behind it.
5)The NPC are nothing more than huge hp pools.
6)You can upgrade weapons and gear for extremely large amounts of Dil and EC.
7)The only way to get the weapons and gear at MK XIII and XIV is to grind them (except for the very few things from mission rewards that most don't bother with).
8)The optionals were made mandatory on Advance (which that is hopefully getting changed).
9)The gap from Normal to Advance STFs/PVEs is so large that it is closer to Elite difficulty (I hope they will fix this for ones that want to do more than chase DPS).
So, can a casual player still play STO? Yes, just like they can play WOW, and other games out there. Is STO still casual friendly? Depends on what you see as casual friendly.
For me, casual friendly means that if casual players log in to play for short amount of times during the week, they will be able to advance in the game, and reach short-term goals without it taking them more than a few months. Long-term goals will take them longer than it will for hardcore gamers.
I don't see that in STO. It even has short-term goals locked behind long-term systems. This means that it will take them very long amounts of time to get those short-term goals. Leveling just from 50-60 is something that takes a lot of casual players that have limited time months to do. Whereas before, they may have leveled from 0-50 in about 2-3 weeks. It takes them more than 4 or 5 times longer just to level 10 levels than it took to level 50.
The rep systems progression is the same is they just run the normal STFs/PVE queues. This will give them all the Marks needed to complete the rep systems. But, getting the gear is much harder now, and some casual players have given up on rep gear, and just stick with mission rewards.
However, I know that some just see casual players as lazy, or wanting something for free. There are some players out there like that in every game. But they are not casual players. They are just lazy. Casual players are ones that have limited play time, and they find it fun to get the feeling of progression when they log in. That is something that starts to go away once you hit level 50, and is gone once you finish the rep systems. And the rep systems can be done by a casual player long before they are able to reach level 60, and spending the same amount of time on both.
So, STO is neither hardcore, or casual. It is the individual that is casual or hardcore. But STO has become much less fun for a large number of casual players. And I understand why.
Cryptic eventually abandonded role-playing and pvp.
Players use to gather around the Omega office, so they can put together stf teams. Bajor was another great place to gather. Cryptic also helped destroy Drozana's adult atmosphere.
STO 2015 is more about grinding mechanics, filling buckets, and waiting out timers.
Hourly calendar events use to make the game feel 'live'. Massive groups of players would race together, so they can gain a substantial amount of credits. Player would gather daily and hourly not just on weekends.
Weekend events were all about 'additional bonuses', which could be earned ontop of 'substantial rewards'.
When I look back at how things have changed, I directly blame the fleet bases, fleet holdings, and weekend grind events. If Cryptic focused solely on reputation systems and featured episodes, STO would have hit a nice balance between casual and hardcore.
With the reputation system previously being the top gear, you could max that out in a month and from there go on to work on the gear IF you wanted it. You didn't really need the stuff from the next reputation. It was largely optional. But it also gave you options to try out different things, different combinations.
With the crafting system, you take months just to get to the point you can actually make superior kits that won't drain you of extra dilithium just to get to mk 14. It takes a lot of grinding advanced queues to actually get the rare mats for them as well, assuming anyone is actually playing them. And experimenting is not an option anymore. You plan what gear you want to get to mk 14 and then you are locked into it.
At least for me personally, if I spent an hour or two in game before DR, I could run several characters through elite STFs. I didn't need anything from them, I did it for fun. I didn't need to do more. Or I could work on some dailies for reputation for whatever character needed it. I definitely can't do that now, not just because the public queues are empty, though they are empty for a reason due to the increase in difficulty.
Instead I have to spend time TRIBBLE around with the RnD system, making kits and other nonsense parts that takes up a lot of time, switching between characters to try and be efficient in use of time and crafting specialties. If I spend an hour in game now, I can maybe do 1 STF, and that time is probably going to be wasted by the fail conditions and made extra frustrating due to the BOFF unseating bug.
Specialization points are not an option to grind towards, but I try to at least keep some of my characters' doffs busy, but doing that takes away more time. Of course since doing STFs is such a pain these days and don't reward anything appropriate for the effort, it is easier to skip them, though it makes getting rare materials a pain.
So six months from DR launch and I have 2/12 characters with full sets of mk 14 beams. Not their torps. None of the cannon users are upgraded. My cannon and torpedo RnD isn't there yet to the point where I want it to be to start making kits full tilt. The time requirement is huge to do all this. Parts have to be made, mats have to be procured, and once you have that done, you only get 5-10 kits every 15 minutes. It is tedious.
You can sit there and say that nothing is really changed, it is still casual friendly, but it most definitely is not for me. I can't do what I used to do, what I used to find fun. And if I want to upgrade my equipment, it isn't time spent doing reputation grinding and actually playing the game, it time spent with inventory and doff and time management, and maybe I'll venture into the far more frustrating STF queues.
Wow, yeah not casual. I set back to being casual to catch back up on fun in the game. My two DR Recruits are 5 and 13 and that is only because I rerolled the first one. (Accidentally set tactical not engineer.) and a rom needed 13 to get ESD to join my regular fleet.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
STO 2010 had no STFs, had a level 40 cap, and was a subscription model.
this is basically it . i see myself as a casual time player before DR i had no issues playing the old Elite content , i played on 4 characters total i could rotate them and each could progress in a decent amount of time . now as it stands i can barely get my first toon to progress , let alone get a chance to really play the others . without the other falling way behind.
the reason i have other toons that i like to play regularly is that there different styles of play . while im taking advantage of Delta Recruitment . while playing the Delta recuit im not playing the prime toon ive been running since Delta risings start . and im level 18 Recruit. . you might ask why make a recruit ? i wanted to see the how they played out , and why not . the main difference now is that in a Post DR STO is that feeling of progression for the casual time player is about more or less 1/2 of what it was pre DR . at least from my experience .
People saying it is not are hung up on spec points and Mark XIV epic gear. Neither of those is required to finish all of the story content including Delta Rising, none of that is needed to do normal STFs.
Casual players can use rep gear or XII white - green gear from the exchange and do just fine.
This is what I'm wondering if a lot of these new casual players are going to feel as well. I have no doubt they'll have a blast until they hit Level 50 (which is where a player really needs to be to start generating purchases) but will that sudden extreme grind of what awaits past Level 50 just shock them away. And if they do that, their wallets go with them.
Maybe its less about the game being casual and more about the pacing and tone of how the current endgame is set up. I dunno.
The complainers throw the word "casual" like some kind of political buzzword without slightest care for what it actually means.
Casual play doesn't mean intentionally going for a higher difficulty level, then complaining its too hard.
Casual play doesn't mean compulsively grinding spec points that nobody needs.
Casual play doesn't mean obsessing over whatever happens to be the "best" equipment, in a game you can complete with random drops.
Going from MKII purple to MK IV gold isn't a night and day difference like it is in many other MMOs. And getting MKII gear with reputation or fleet marks is laughably easy in comparison as well. Heck there are even MKII gear you can get as quest rewards and they are really damn good for a grand total price of free!.