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Coming Skill tree revamp thoughts
therinos25
Member Posts: 23 Arc User
So just curious, with the coming skill revamp. How would you guys feel about bringing the Trinity (tank, DPs, heals) or a more defined soft Trinity to the game? The current meta is just DPs burn down. And from what I remember that was also supposed to be a perk of the game stepping away from the trinity style. Its my opinion that bringing it in the game could be beneficial in a few ways.
A) ground combat and pugging: everyone kinda knows ground combat isn't the draw of this game space is. Because of the way most people play the game as straight DPs we just kinda throw ourselves at enemies till they die or we respawn and try again. That's super tedious and why pugging sucks or one reason why it sucks at least to me. With at least a little bit of a defined Trinity system it could have a chance of improving pugs through teamwork with roles. Because As it stands currently with the dps race it feels like soloing in a party.
stfs wouldn't have to be nerfed immediately after being released for being "to hard" or "it hits to hard". And it could open up more raid like fleet actions in the future. With the current DPs race survivability isn't all that key in pve other than for stf bonuses for the party not wiping. Or when it is key it is because everyone is out for themselves because it's basically just soloing in a party.
I'm not saying only tacs can be DPs engies tank sci heals. But a more clearly defined skill section that provides maybe each for each style of captain. Obviously opinions differ but I want to know how other people would feel about it. Moving away from pure DPs focus to team work and role specializing. Sorry for grammar or any weird wordings my phones auto correct is tedious.
A) ground combat and pugging: everyone kinda knows ground combat isn't the draw of this game space is. Because of the way most people play the game as straight DPs we just kinda throw ourselves at enemies till they die or we respawn and try again. That's super tedious and why pugging sucks or one reason why it sucks at least to me. With at least a little bit of a defined Trinity system it could have a chance of improving pugs through teamwork with roles. Because As it stands currently with the dps race it feels like soloing in a party.
stfs wouldn't have to be nerfed immediately after being released for being "to hard" or "it hits to hard". And it could open up more raid like fleet actions in the future. With the current DPs race survivability isn't all that key in pve other than for stf bonuses for the party not wiping. Or when it is key it is because everyone is out for themselves because it's basically just soloing in a party.I'm not saying only tacs can be DPs engies tank sci heals. But a more clearly defined skill section that provides maybe each for each style of captain. Obviously opinions differ but I want to know how other people would feel about it. Moving away from pure DPs focus to team work and role specializing. Sorry for grammar or any weird wordings my phones auto correct is tedious.
Post edited by therinos25 on
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It should be build your own from a list
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
It would seem the IP has, for the most part, ships that were designed to stand alone. No Trinity.
Look the thing is though this is a game and an mmo at that using the show can't really work for that because the show is designed for one ship and one crew to be main characters. In this game we do group activities so teamwork is needed or at least I think it should be so DPs racing can cease. I don't want full hard Trinity like I said a soft Trinity could be beneficial. Where everyone could fulfill the role of each but there at least is a need for each to make it work smoother. Obviously you could choose otherwise but it could be a rougher gofor a team of glasscannon dpsers than a mixed team.
I haven't been frequenting the forums lately so I was unaware of that happening. Thanks for the heads up
Still having a hard time wrapping my head around what they will change.
On another note, I was thinking the other day, what if there was no captain classes.
Upon character creation, you choose your primary captains skills from a list (Alpha, Subnuc, sensor scan, etc) you'd be free to choose any combination you desire.
Maybe not a great idea, but I think it would give players more interesting options on builds.
So it's more the ships that need to be changed to support the DPS race and less the captains.
Oh, not the folks that create the thread...just the discussions get downright heated. More a case of the folks posting in the threads as the discussions go along. It's a trip just how antagonistic the Trinity threads can get...wrong kind of Trinity for all the zealous crusading that takes place.
Personally, I'd say it's the content. As long as the content's easy enough that the best way to do something is just to shoot it...
My guess is that it's still a "valid topic for discussion", however, way too often things get hyper emo that leads to ToS violations and bannings/closings...
I'll call this spade a spade, or actually an "oxymoron"...
The rationale behind the "needs" of a trinity system revolve around clearly defined roles. When you look at the "heart" of a trinity system, it revolves around some sort of Tank (to survive all the attacks), Damager (to do the killing), and Supporter (whether through buffing/debuffing or Crowd Control).
Without this kind of clear definition of roles, we can wind up with the mentality we have now. Listen to the "typical tactical argument" from the pages of "escorts online" - since they don't "need" a tank to keep them alive, they argue "we're focused on DPS to make sure that we kill the target(s) before they can kill us" - and it requires one hit kill weapons to kill them faster than their DPS can kill the target(s). Crowd Control is considered a luxury to these DPS oriented guys - I posted in another thread about STFs that my sci ship in a "medium DPS" group needs to GW the nanite train of ISA before the transformer goes, in a "high DPS" group, I GW afterwords so that the spheres stay clustered together for the DPSers to have "ease of target acquisition". Even then, they tell me that I'd have served their DPS team better as yet another 30k DPSer instead of a 9k DPSer that CCed the enemy...
I see the argument that no "hero" ship ever awaited a different ship to help. This is reflected in each ship of the game possessing elements from all three classes - but that, again, leads to the mentality that the escort is "tanky" enough to handle the mobs on their own, and we're back to square 1 - DPS is king.
To me, we either need to make the group content "need" one of each class to "be optimal", or we keep the game a DPS race and the only difference between classes is methodology of DPS accumulation. It is possible to make the game "need" one of each class but still be completable by a single-class team, but for some odd reason I think that such level(s) of balance are either beyond the Dev team's expertise (it is nigh impossible) and/or we've blasted the dev's plans out of the water with the massive disparities in DPS attainable in the game (I mean 100k DPS builds while "average" is 15k and "weak" is 2k?)
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Yeah, but I don't see that changing anytime soon.
This would be like the third time to redo skills, don't really see the need.M
Or
Is this a I wish thread - just hate I wish fiction threads.
Makes me think of what they tried to do with Mirror Event.
Sci Vessels could close Rifts fastest, turn Trans slowest.
Cruisers could turn Trans fastest, close Rifts slowest.
Escorts did the middle speed for everything or could tag along for each to so the Sci Vessels and Cruisers could do their thing, eh?
But it didn't quite work that way. Everybody could just blow up everything and basically do anything.
Which without a queue system requiring certain things, they could only push those differences so far - but with DPS being so easy and so over the top...meh, it just didn't really do anything.
Would you replace "Class" with "Role"...since "Career" simply isn't enough to define "Class" in the game?
But even there, you wouldn't be able to do content that requires players to split up - since that "Class"/"Role" wouldn't be available to each of the groups.
How would folks split into three groups to do X...how would folks split into two to three groups to do Y...and all the rest, eh?
Geko had mentioned before DR wanting to do it with the next expansion. Then he said it wouldn't happen in time and would come later. It's likely been mentioned in other podcasts as something that would happen with S10...or might come later.
Heh, no...Normal's likely to be nerfed further so it's easier than the very first mission a person does with Advanced not far behind.
There are...
Captain Abilities (including Kits on Ground)
Captain Traits
Captain ability to train certain Rank 3 BOFF Abilities
It's been mentioned from time to time, if folks could select an ability from each "level" as they wanted...
1) Attack Pattern Alpha or Rotate Shield Frequency or Sensor Scan
2) Fire On My Mark or EPS Power Transfer or Subnucleonic Beam
3) Tactical Initiative or Nadion Inversion or Scattering Field
4) Go Down Fighting or Miracle Worker or Photonic Fleet
5) Tactical Fleet or Engineering Fleet or Science Fleet
...but that usually disintegrates into a discussion about the lack of balance in those abilities.
I would like for them to take it a step further than your idea and have captains that are pure specialists in certain abilities. For example, there is a GW tree you can go down and there are certain bonuses to GW you can pick up to enhance that ability, and say you can have enough points to enhance maybe two or three abilities and they are not limited to just science or engineering. Pick up two science ability trees and one engineering, or two tactical and one science, etc.
The (direct) link to training Boffs has already been severed with PADDs.
Most of the time you put 0,3,6, or 9 points into a skill, with some oddball break points scattered about.
Then they could add in a spec branch at the Threat Control and Stealth level that would be the minus threat effect of fleet consoles.
Eventually, you could have all the skills.
As long as they give enough spec points through level 50 to get back what you had under the old system I wouldn't mind it much. Thanks to DR I don't even have to worry about redoing a ton of captains.
Okay so for PvE everyone would have APA, SS, EPSPT, TF (or SF) and MW for PVP you just replace MW for SNB.
That's a problem.
Team play with roles can be fun, and has value, as does specialization, but it shouldn't be forced -it should be available as a choice among other choices.
Also, any skill tree revamp better be done carefully, the correct/wrong decisions can make or break a game too...
Heh, to be blunt...STO is pretty much a generic fantasy MMO with a different texture pack going for it. We've got magic wand healing, paladin auras, and can toss fireballs. STO's far more closely related to fantasy MMOs than space/sci-fi MMOs.
Players are creative...they'd find the path of least resistance.
Yeah, I've had that idealistic dream from time to time of a pug hitting up a queue - everybody taking an inventory of what was there and deciding from the different potential ways of tackling the content which the group was best suited to do...
...but it would just turn into the silent expectation that everybody was ready for whatever the path of least resistance for that content was with the complaints that somebody was doing it wrong.
Sci make better Tanks and Healers than Engineers. Hell, even a Tac Tank or Tac Healer would bring more to a group than an Eng would.
They've continued to talk about the skill revamp even after revealing the Specialization trees.
In a hard trinity only engineers in a cruiser could queue as tanks.
That doesn't stop other classes building their ships to suit that role and being more productive.
Which will do them a lot of good if they can't queue for that role.
Rogue evasion tanking used to be a thing but Rogues can't queue as a tank role, only Damage.
Warlocks could tank with the right build but they don't have an official tank role so they were only considered Damage when trying to queue.
And Damage must be punished with insane wait times to force people into playing Healer and Tank roles.
Great, then nobody plays Damage because you can't get anywhere because of insane wait times, and as a direct result, NOBODY can get anywhere because nobody plays Damage.
Then you can also add points from the other 2 trees for twice the points cost.
You will not be able to specialize very much or achieve good drain or exotic builds anymore.
90% + will choose redline damage tree.
Even a caveman will be able to set it up. Though they may become lost in the new sector space.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
That's generally not a problem. Tank and Healer are usually frustrating enough that people will still eat the insane queue times as Damage or you use the endless stream of noobs that just don't know better and rolled a Damage role captain as your fodder.
To be fair to tanks the devs usually give them a tanking mechanic that gives them the damage level of a Damage role anyways. Think Reciprocity but as a class trait.
Why? What about an Engineer suggests they should be the Tank?
The Cruiser? Sure, can definitely see that.
A ship with a bunch of Eng BOFF abilities? Sure, can definitely see that.
But what does that have to do with an actual Eng Captain?
Seriously...both Tac and Sci could take better advantage of that Cruiser with all the Eng BOFFs than the actual Eng could.
Long before I gave up on the the /facepalm way Cryptic treated the KDF to roll Fed, I gave up on the /facepalm way Cryptic treated Engs and rolled Sci.
I've got Sensor Scan instead of Rotate Shield Frequency - so I can debuff targets so they die faster so I take less damage and require less healing. Hell, can even DOFF it so the targets do less damage. Vs a redundant shield heal/shield hardness subject to diminishing returns?
I've got Subnucleonic Beam instead of EPS Power Transfer - so I can strip buffs and slow down recharges on those pesky boss-type mobs that want to kill folks or are trying not to die. Vs. redundant power/transfer in a game oozing power out the wahzoo?
I've got Scattering Field instead of Nadion Inversion - so I can drop out an AoE Energy Damage Resistance to reduce damage to the precious hull. Vs. drain resistance that's redundant for weapons because of gearing and pretty much pointless when the few enemies that drain do drains that are so easy to cleanse otherwise.
I've got Photonic Fleet instead of Miracle Worker - so I can drop out a little bit of chaff potentially to soak up enemy FAW, CSV, Spreads - take out targetable projectiles - and so many other things that keep the damage away from the group. Vs. a heal that's easily outclassed by BOFF abilities.
I've got Science Fleet instead of Engineering Fleet - and this one is just too painful to do the comparison.
Hrmm, maybe I'll roll an Eng as a Delta Recruit - just to have around, should somewhere in the next ten years or so Cryptic do something about them.
Kind of depends on the game. There are games out there that have the "Fighter/Cleric/Mage/Rogue" thing where each of the four can be Tank/Heals/DPS...as in the system will recognize the build as capable of doing that role, based on the subclass selections made.
Which is the one thing I always find funny in the discussions, usually before they go to Hell...
Like you said there, it tends to Tank/Heals > DPS are a dime a dozen in other games. Here, it's DPS > pretty much all. So folks that were used to a certain level of "I'm the man!" in other games, just hate how it is here in this game. At the same time, folks that might have experienced that "dime a dozen" in other games - would have thought they might have been a little less vindictive and spiteful in this game.
edit: Should note, about the Sci vs. Eng thing, imho - that changes if one is flying a Warbird.
Science has too much space magic (sub nuc, photonic fleet) to be the tank.
Tactical is the obvious Damage class (APA, GDF).
The na