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The Ancients

flash525flash525 Member Posts: 5,441 Arc User
Now as awesome as it would be to fly an Aurora Class Battleship into Crystalline Cataclysm, and to then unleash a swarm of glowing drones against those crystal shards, that is not what this discussion is about. :P

Instead, I wish to argue the argument of endgame ships of the older variety. I say argue, but I suppose it's more a debate (one that is open). Before I get started on this I wish to make it very clear that I am not asking for a Tier #6 Constitution, and if one ever came out, I wouldn't use it.

That said, whenever the conversation is brought up, I always see countless people raving around with lines such as "you can't have that ship because it's too old and outdated" or "people need to learn to let go of the past and embrace new designs" etc; and the status of CBS and/or Cryptic (and their decision on the subject) has no bearing on that voice.

To those people (and the argument in itself) I pose the following question(s) to you; if you are so against a tier 6 Constitution (or a tier 6 Miranda) then why don't you object more to a 22nd Century Xindi Aquatic Cruiser, a 22nd Century Reptilian Escort, a 22nd Century (Romulan) Bird of Prey, a T5R/T5U Excelsior (I have the ship, and love it, but the point stands; it's essentially an Excelsior in the 25th Century), then there's the multiple 22nd Century Klingon ships that seem to have a T5 variant.

Why cause a sh*tstorm when a high end Constitution or Miranda are mentioned, yet sit back idle with all the others? I'm curious.
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Comments

  • lindalefflindaleff Member Posts: 3,734 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    In 90% of cases, things are good BECAUSE they are old. They have proven themselves to be reliable, which is why they are still around after so many years. My Jem'Hadar Dreadnought remains my favourite ship, even after having it for so long. How many decades old are they? You can only assume they existed since the Dominion War, or maybe even well before. but they are still going strong. I have no plans to ever retire it, or move to a different ship.
    I completed a 2-man CSE, ISE, and KASE, Optionals included. And I soloed Winter Invasion.
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  • thlaylierahthlaylierah Member Posts: 2,991 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Do you want the spin or the truth?

    Spin: Because flimsy excuses.

    Truth: Because the devs like it that way.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    T6 miranda ftw! who cares about the connie. khan made the miranda sing and dance, if it wasnt for that dirty trick kirk played with his command codes, khan would of shown kirk the nebula in more details then he would of wanted. so the miranda class is at least t3 status as a ship class, but for some reason its been left at t1 and ignored.

    as much as i want a t6 miranda, i doubt the devs care to notice, as usual.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • seriousxenoseriousxeno Member Posts: 473 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Very good point and hits the mark OP.

    The Wrath of Khan is my favorite movie with the old crew. The Miranda was an awesome looking ship. I played Starfleet Command I and II for well over a decade and the light cruiser (the Miranda variants) were my favorite. Perfect balance between firepower (those things have more of that than most people seem to realize) and maneuverability.

    When I started playing STO, imagine my excitement finding out that its the first ship I can get!

    Then imagine my utter disappointment after finding out there's not retrofit.

    We can debate all day long about the age of ships, but the point is if all the ancient derelicts listed by the OP can be playable (not to mention pretty darn good) then there's no good reason against it.

    I have said it before and I will say it again. The moment we get a retrofit of any kind of the light cruiser line, I'm buying it day 1. Until then, I will believe that either CBS or Cryptic themselves simply don't want my money on that. Given how many promos and C-Store release we had recently, its baffling they don't do this really.

    And before people start citing Sacrifice of Angels for the 10 millionth time, if you paid attention during the Dominion War, the Miranda was FAR from the only fed ship that got blown up really fast. Your precious Excelsiors and Akiras didn't fare ANY better.
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  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    flash525 wrote: »
    To those people (and the argument in itself) I pose the following question(s) to you; if you are so against a tier 6 Constitution (or a tier 6 Miranda) then why don't you object more to a 22nd Century Xindi Aquatic Cruiser, a 22nd Century Reptilian Escort, a 22nd Century (Romulan) Bird of Prey, a T5R/T5U Excelsior (I have the ship, and love it, but the point stands; it's essentially an Excelsior in the 25th Century), then there's the multiple 22nd Century Klingon ships that seem to have a T5 variant.
    I believe I objected to many of those things. For example, go back 5 years and you will see many posts from me complaining about why an Excelsior was better then a Sovereign. From a canon standpoint if newer does not equate to better then why was Picard not flying a Connie? :)

    5 years later and I really just do not give a damn one way or another. Canon was thrown out the window to give way to fanboy wants years ago. STO is a mish-mash of fandom designed to part players from their money rather then being about canon. At this point I think the players should be able to play any ship they want. But that does not mean I would not prefer a true 25th Century Trek experience with modern ships, new enemies, etc. Just as TNG, DS9, and Voy built from the past, rather then living in it, so should have STO. But it is what it is.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • jermbotjermbot Member Posts: 801 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Okay, the making a ship available at end game debate always boils down to feelings. Yes yes, I know, you think you have air tight logic for why your view of what can and can not be done in the pretend universe of Star Trek Online is 'right' and other people's view of the pretend universe of Star Trek Online is wrong. But no, it's still just something that feels right to you.

    Some people feel a connection to a particular ship or design, whether it be fond memories of a specific show, or even just liking certain aesthetics. Others feel like Star Trek is better served by having a sense of technological progress that makes it feel like a living, breathing universe.

    My own feelings are to shrug and move on. No dog in this race really, but the pretentiousness of one side or the other trying to be 'right' kind of grates.
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  • zarato4218zarato4218 Member Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    OP makes a good point. I have come up with some pretty crazy RP excuses for why my captains fly, for example, a Dromias (It was uniquely sentient enough to decide that what the 8472 were doing was wrong and wanted to help stop them:D) but the thought of using extremely old ships even at Tier 1, like the NX, always made me feel too silly to ever be able to fly one. Which is tough as it is the only availiable Tier 1 escort.

    With that said though, while I would not want a T5/T6 Connie or Miranda for myself, there is no reason why one could not be fitted with modern armor, shields, and tech from a lore standpoint. Though I can't image why the Federation would want to unless it had to do with running low on material due to the Klingon then Tal Shiar/Icionian then 2nd "quasi" Dominion then Vaadwaur and now full Icionian Wars. (By the way, wow thats a lot of wars for "2" years:rolleyes:) Of course the precident is there as many Mirandas (the redshirts of starships) were used in the Domionion war as seen on DS9. Anyway, thats my two cents.
    As Zephram Cochrane once said, "That'll do, pig. That'll do." - April 1st 2015. o:)
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  • garaks31garaks31 Member Posts: 2,845 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    If you know the candlelight is fire, then the meal was cooked a long time ago.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    garaks31 wrote: »
    If you know the candlelight is fire, then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

    Though a candle burns in my house, there's nobody home.

    did you have a point to this cut and paste quote from sg1?
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    The "favorite" argument I've heard is that "Humanity" loves to focus on the new, while the "aliens" are willing to stick with one design for centuries...

    You know, much like the Car world - while a Model T still gets you around from point A to point B, nobody "regularly" builds Model T replicas because the aerodynamics of modern cars is much better, etc. etc.

    I mean, and I've started pointing this out just recently, "per lore" the Romulans "upgraded" their T'Varo to the T'Liss, but then 200 years later went and upgraded that original T'Varo rather than the semi-newer T'Liss...

    My suspicions is that this is how far a certain Dev who doesn't like anything TOS that doesn't say D7 is willing to go to exclude TOS designs from endgame - however, it's entirely possible that CBS has been the ones behind the block - though a company that cares about the IP would send someone over to a forum fire to help prevent their name being slung through mud and/or give the final answers to the issue

    Personally, with "in lore" reasons - I'm surprised that Humanity hasn't attempted to "prove their better than all these aliens" by popping 25th century tech into Connies and Mirandas to show that Humanity's ideas are "just as enduring" as these T'Varos and Kumaris... :)
    Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...

    To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
  • razar2380razar2380 Member Posts: 1,187 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Personally, the way I see it is there is no big deal in giving those the ship they want at T6.

    I fly my T6 Semsar cruiser against a Maranda that had more hull hp, and can hit about as hard as my MK XII weapons boosted by my tac consoles. So, if the NPCs are flying T7 versions of them, why not let players have T6 versions of them?

    Also, I would like to mention that the Miranda that Khan used was only able to do as much damage as it did to the Enterprise because Kirk didn't follow procedures, and raise shields like he should have.

    Khan was relying on him trusting a fellow Federation ship, and that is what helped Khan catch him with his "pants down".

    Had the shields been up, and Khan had not been able to do a surprise attack, then it would have been a whole different fight at the beginning.

    But, the ST movies aside, I say go for it. Build the ships, and let players rebuy those ships, just like all the T6 ships we now have.
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  • flash525flash525 Member Posts: 5,441 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    dareau wrote: »
    The "favorite" argument I've heard is that "Humanity" loves to focus on the new, while the "aliens" are willing to stick with one design for centuries...
    The Federation isn't compromised of just Humans though... :P
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  • jellico1jellico1 Member Posts: 2,719
    edited March 2015
    skollulfr wrote: »
    when did the xindi become a space faring race?
    any race that have been spacefaring for 1000 years by the time starfleet rolls around, are going to have 'mature' spacefaring technology even if not necessarily much more powerful in comparison.

    starfleet fielding an excelcior in 2410 is the equivalent of fielding a treaty cruiser against a modern cruiser.
    would the treaty cruiser be able to sink a modern cruiser if the difference in paradigm between cannon and guided missile could be accounted for?
    sure.
    do they look somewhat the same?
    sure.
    but the treaty cruiser is still woefully outmatched.
    you could fit it with current prototype railguns and thel and it would still be inferior because at its core, its engineering would still be utterly outclassed.

    im not against a modernised version of the hull being put out with a more industrial aesthetic than the sleeker designs associated with ships like the sovereign or intrepid, but putting the original out and acting like nothings going to be wrong? bull****.

    same for things like the nx or connie. the engineering principles that went into those design's are completly antique, though ships using the same template as guide could still be viable.

    the dominion is a perfect example.
    they predate teh federation as a space faring power by a thousand years and may well have been using the same insectoid ships for that entire time, but thats going to be in part because the tech behind those ships was mature a thousand years ago, only needing refined since then, rather than overhauled every 20 years due to new tech antiquating immature technology.

    similar for the vaadwaur.


    the engineering section can be exchangfed out at will on any ship in STO in seconds as can any weapon or system they don't havbe any realism in STO about exchanging out equipment

    Explain the BOP then its as old as the Constituton/Enterprise class

    Explain the D-7 its older than the enterpise class I think STO calls it Exeter class because Enterptise class name is owned by Fasa

    If your argument had any value it would also apply to these ships

    Another point the Exeter /Enterprise class had 2x the firepower over the D-7 and 5x the firepower of the BOP

    Yet in STO...........................

    bottom line is STO doesn't respect canon unless it suits them period

    STO is just like JJ verse and Enterprise , A totally different time line from the original timeline they can do whatever they want
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